Poll

Who is guilty of the greater crime?

Stefan Amaris
86 (67.2%)
Aleksandr Kerensky
24 (18.8%)
It's about even.
18 (14.1%)

Total Members Voted: 128

Author Topic: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?  (Read 16022 times)

boilerman

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It's been a while since I've stirred the mud and since I don't want to do more important things...

Seriously, I don't know how many threads I've read through where it's been discussed but I've never seen a poll asking what the silent majority types might think. So please at least vote.

I have definite opinions but I will hold off for the moment to let things get rolling.
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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #1 on: 30 March 2015, 23:29:52 »
Nicholas Kerensky might be as bad as Amaris.  But Aleksandr?  I can't say that by any stretch.
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boilerman

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #2 on: 31 March 2015, 00:00:05 »
Nicholas Kerensky might be as bad as Amaris.  But Aleksandr?  I can't say that by any stretch.
My bad, I was meaning Aleksandr. Added first names to poll options for clarity.
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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #3 on: 31 March 2015, 01:43:28 »
Personally I go for Amaris just because his actions were unequivocally criminal, whereas Kerensky either left as his did, abandoning the Hegemony and the Inner Sphere to the inevitable war he knew was coming, or stayed and possibly fuelled the war to greater heights while attempting to save what he could. So Kerensky really was damned either way.

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #4 on: 31 March 2015, 02:08:29 »
About my vote, I voted for Kerensky, though I would not suggest that it was an actual crime. One could view it as being almost criminal in a moral sense, though I wouldn't say it is near it in a legal sense.

Amaris was mad, Kerensky was of clear mind. Amaris took actions that would lead to the deaths of many. Kerensky's decisions would create a situation that would allow others to take action that would lead to countless deaths. Kerensky could have taken action, much like Amaris did, but his actions would have prevented deaths.

Kerensky could have worked with one or more houses to create a coalition, in trade for material support. If anyone had a chance to maintain the tech level of the I.S. of the 1st SL era it was Kerensky. If he maintained the tech level then his forces would have had the tech advantage over the houses. Working with a few houses he would have maintained his force. He could have made some kind of deals to keep a few houses from attacking others, such as they supply the SLDF with materials and the SLDF will defend their worlds from attack if that house does not aggress another. The other houses would not want to mess with another house and the SLDF, and since the coalition houses would not attack, then the other houses would not have a good reason to aggress them. Who really would have wanted the weight of the SLDF and another house's force falling upon them for a small gain of a handful of worlds?

Instead of seeing the possibilities and acting to protect the I.S. as he supposedly was trying to do, he decided to bail out and let the I.S. fall into chaos. Even if the SLDF fell apart because people gave up, or went back to their homes to fight for their house, or went Merc, what would it have mattered? How much more damage could a few hundred more mechs have done if they were scattered throughout the I.S. fighting against each other? If anything they would have canceled each other out. The remaining SLDF could have played a major role in preventing many deaths by just being present. Whatever WOB did to the I.S., the SLDF could have done even more damage since it would have been focused against one or two houses that decided to piss them off by aggressing.

You don't save the house by letting it burn to the ground while you go camping in another country. You save the house by putting out the fire. Also, you might need to put out little fires here and there, but as much trouble as that may be, it would be worse to allow it to become a massive fire that then needs to be put out. Kerensky saw the fire hazard, he saw the sparks, the fuel, and the pyros starting the blazes, and he turned around and walked away. He comforted himself by suggesting that what he was doing was not abandoning his cause, but that he was saving it by leaving it. If he stayed and died fighting in what may have been a futile battle, at least he would have gone out without tarnishing his name and what he believed in. He would have done more for his cause had he gone and WOB'ed one or more houses in a preemptive strike to make an example out of those that would try to take over the I.S. through force. At the very least he would have proven he didn't lose his spine. It would have costed lives, but it would have saved countless more by ending the wars that would begin if he left.

FedComGirl

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #5 on: 31 March 2015, 03:04:41 »
I voted for Aleksandr.  He had options other than destroying two nations and then running off with 80% of the remaining SLDF and all the technology their ships could carry. Instead he could have used the law to hamstring Amaris as much as possible. The Star League Accords didn't have an Emperor listed. There'd have to be an amendment of all Star League Members. That includes the Periphery who are not happy with Amaris and the House Lords who never liked or trusted him. And since the Rim Worlds Republic was abandoned he could occupy it in a Police Action to the citizens could elect a new Ruling House. And there wouldn't be anything Amaris could do except try to be nice to the House Lords and get them on his side. Any other action puts them on Kerensky's side. 

By the time the RRW gets a new House Lord, the Hegemony would have gone into a civil war because of Amaris's actions. Then Kerensky could have gone in as a savior not aggressor and he'd of gained more support from the other Realms. And that's not including all the things Kerensky could have done before he even left for the Periphery. The Star League could have continued. Changed, but continued. Instead he threw it all away. That's why I think Kerensky is guilty of the greater crime.

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #6 on: 31 March 2015, 03:39:43 »
Amaris. For one thing, he's guilty of warcrimes rather than desertion on an epic scale. For another he had a greater role in creating the situation that Kerensky failed to clean up. Amaris lit the fire, Kerensky "only" let everybody burn.
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noisenerd

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #7 on: 31 March 2015, 06:17:57 »
Amaris lit the fire, Kerensky "only" let everybody burn.

This.

Drewbacca

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #8 on: 31 March 2015, 06:28:04 »
I voted for Amaris. Even a short list is heavily weighted against him.

1. Killed the First Lord, after working for years behind the scenes to cause havoc in the Star League.

2. Started a multinational, multi-front war to make his take over much easier.

3. Ordered the death of every member of the Cameron family. This right here, alone is a greater crime than what Kerensky did. The Star League charter says nothing about an Emperor, but it also says that only a member of the Cameron family could rule the Star League. By killing every last Cameron he insured the Succession Wars would happen more certainly than Kerensky leaving. And it is not a given that the bulk of the SLDF would have remained loyal to Kerensky as they did not do so in the Pentagon.

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #9 on: 31 March 2015, 06:37:49 »
Amaris.  Hands down.  He conspired to start a war so he could overthrow a government that started another war which in turn ended the Star League and two hundred years of relative peace and prospertiy.  Both wars killed millions with the heavy use of WMD while the forces Amaris led committed multiple atrocities.

While Kerensky may be guilty of abandoning the Inner Sphere to a dark fate, it was the greed of the House Lords that actually caused that event to happen.  Kerensky just led the people he cared for more than all others out of the path of the bullet.  Also, there was no guarantee that if Kerensky had stayed and fought that the Succession Wars would have been any less bloody.

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #10 on: 31 March 2015, 06:42:00 »
Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

Amaris was an evil man that killed millions (if not billions) because of his greed for power. Kerensky was a good man but he condemned the entire Inner Sphere population to hundreds of years of warfare which decimated entire star systems of population because he choose to turn his back on his sworn duty to defend and protect the Star League (even if from itself). The Empires Aflame AU gives an insight into what would have happened if he had chosen not to leave and to do his duty. People would have still have died but not on the same scale as the Succession Wars that followed his Exodus.
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Paladin1

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #11 on: 31 March 2015, 07:22:36 »
I see a lot of people blaming Amaris, but they seem to forget that if Kerensky had done his job as Regent, Amaris would have never had the chance to do his deed at all.

Kerensky, while he may have been a great General, and there's some debate about that as well, was a moral coward and failure.  He failed at being a Regent, taking the easier path and allowing his charge to grow into a spoiled brat.  He failed to see Amaris as the threat that he was to the Cameron line and protecting the heir, which is the purpose of a regent to begin with.  Then, after being caught unawares by the actions of Amaris and losing 90% of the SLDF in the effort to retake the worlds lost to Amaris, abandoned his post when faced with the difficult task of finding a way to stop the House Lords from poaching the SLDF Regulars under his command.  Even when the Lords stripped him of his rank, the SLDF rank and file still listened to him, as evidenced by the Exodus.  He could have chosen to stand and defend the Hegemony, if nothing else, and would have been justified in doing so but instead he turned traitor and talked the SLDF into abandoning their duty to protect their citizens.

Then again, moral courage isn't exactly what I'd expect from a group of people who not only allow, but encourage the enslavement of four entire nations because those nations had the nerve to not want to be a part of the Inner Sphere.  It would seem to me that the centuries of death and destruction during the Succession Wars is a fitting type of justice for those who would enslave their weaker neighbors.

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #12 on: 31 March 2015, 10:03:54 »
While the murderous actions of Stefan Amaris were more blatantly evil and deranged, Kerensky's actions may have had the greater long-term impact.  There were several possible scenarios where the First Lord might be assassinated, but Kerensky's ruthless suppression of the Periphery, along with his multiple failures as a Regent, and followed by the abandonment of those he was sworn to protect, turned a crisis into a full-scale disaster.  I regard both as "monsters".

To a lot of the Periphery, Kerensky was by far the bigger monster, and Amaris was a seriously flawed liberator; to most of the Inner Sphere, Amaris would take the "monster" title, and the opinions about Kerensky could vary anywhere between a hero and a traitor to mankind, or both.  I see Amaris as a "worst case scenario" that the Camerons brought upon themselves, and Kerensky as a prime example of what they did wrong to make it happen in the first place.

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #13 on: 31 March 2015, 10:37:41 »
I view Kerensky as history views Ulysses S. Grant.  He was a great general, but pretty much a failure at most everything else.

But, that said, he didn't pull the trigger that caused the multiple disasters that befell the Inner Sphere.  Misread them, sure.  Cause them, nope.  The greed of Amaris and the House Lords did that.  Amaris started the downfall of the League and the House Lords finished it off.  They are the ones who get the blame.

Oh Kerensky could have seized the throne and maybe, maybe things might have been better or perhaps they could have been worse.  He was an old man and what would have happened if Nicholas got the throne!  He was scary before they got to the Pentagon worlds.  Some seem to blame the Alexander because he didn't try to rule all of mankind by the sword.

Hmmmm......re reading my comments.....yeah, no wonder I play the Clans!  LOL

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #14 on: 31 March 2015, 10:57:07 »
I voted Amaris. Sure, Kerensky left but Amaris was the one who started it all. Kerensky was a general, not a politician. It would be like at the end of WW II Patton taking over one of the countries we opposed.

 
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #15 on: 31 March 2015, 11:49:35 »
Amaris.

An argument can be made that with the Exodus decision, Alex Kerensky neglected his final duties to the rest of the Inner Sphere, with the horrors of the first couple Succession Wars being the result.  Kerensky would argue back that keeping the SLDF in the Inner Sphere would have made the conflagration worse, not better.  And the bulk of the blame for the Succession Wars has to be laid at the feet of the House lords, not Kerensky.  But the argument about alternate histories can still be made to indict Alex Kerensky at some level.

Amaris, however, did not merely neglect his duties -- he proactively pursued war and sanctioned numerous atrocities by all accounts.  It's one thing to allow evil to emerge through neglect.  It's another to vigorously pursue and execute evil acts.  The latter carries much greater guilt than the former.

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #16 on: 31 March 2015, 12:08:55 »
If killing the First Lord is a "crime," then how can anyone justify participating in the Succession Wars? Sending out millions of troops to their death is warfare, but ending the war with fewer casualties through a coup is a "crime" -- I don't understand that logic.  ;)

Each of the House Lords could be described as equally vicious and far more frivolous with the lives of civilians. But Kerensky? Let's not forget he had the opportunity to never prosecute the war, from the start. When faced with Amaris' letter ordering him to continue operations in the Periphery, he could have performed his legal and moral duty: Checking in with the Star League Council to ascertain the legitimacy of Stefan Amaris' claim to the role of Director and Emperor. If the Council, which represented the Star League, voted yes, then he was to stand down.

Kerensky wielded the SLDF as if he were an emperor himself. He was a general, and subject to the orders of the Council and First Lord. It would be like a General taking our overseas armies in the Middle East and bringing them to bear in an invasion of Washington DC, just because he didn't like the election outcomes (*** just an analogy -- please don't blow it out of proportion ***). That would be not be looked upon favorably, I don't think. And yes, Amaris was elected to the position of Director and Emperor. Whether the election was a sham or not, that's another debate; but it's more than the Hegemony citizens got when they didn't elect the Camerons into a continual, dynastic rule.  O0
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     - Orders of Emperor Stefan Amaris to his troops

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #17 on: 31 March 2015, 12:24:10 »
I vote for Kerensky (Kiereński? Керенский? ;) ).

Amaris did what many other lords and ladies would do sooner or later (and have probably tried numerous times in the past). This was not crime, this was "politics" - the idea that everyone's happy with the status quo was not the foundation of the system, I believe.

It was SLDF and people like Kerensky who were supposed to protect the order. They have chosen to flee instead. And they did so even though they were not facing imminent threat of other forces - they were the force that would be very hard to remove from equation.


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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #18 on: 31 March 2015, 13:18:23 »
One major mistake here and I see it repeated often with regards to Aleksandr Kerensky.  As stated in the Star League Source Book and repeated in various other sources since, the only person who can give the Commanding General of the SLDF a legal order is the First Lord of the Star League.
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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #19 on: 31 March 2015, 13:31:56 »
But he/she would normally continue to manage the entire SLDF even if there is no more First Lords. There are ongoing duties to be filled, this is not a squad/platoon level with daily order issued each day?

We are talking about such complex organization - several orders of magnitude larger than today's largest army - that it would have itself developed mechanisms (and intertia) to carry on every day without the need to be issued orders to.

Decoy

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #20 on: 31 March 2015, 13:34:55 »
Dude, the SLDF just got done conducting a 20 odd year war on it's lonesome.

 I'm just saying to be fair to Alex, you can't gig him for disobeying illegal orders, can you?
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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #21 on: 31 March 2015, 13:36:24 »
Kerensky, any day.  The man was a blight on the species.
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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #22 on: 31 March 2015, 13:41:23 »
Dude, the SLDF just got done conducting a 20 odd year war on it's lonesome.

 I'm just saying to be fair to Alex, you can't gig him for disobeying illegal orders, can you?

Oh no!

This is not the crime I believe he commited. This was the right thing to do under circumstances.

His crime was to conduct Operation "Exodus", fleeing with the force that could have made the difference.

(and creating an even bigger menace to come back several hundreds years later).

You know, "The only way for evil to tryumph is for good men to do nothing" - stuff? :)

Quote
It's another to vigorously pursue and execute evil acts.  The latter carries much greater guilt than the former.

A counterargument can be made that on this level of powerplay the classical moral notions of good and evil as understood by individuals are usually completely different, if not gone. Wasn't the killing of the child - heir to the throne - a justified sacrifice in the eyes of player Amaris? And haven't numerous individuals under Kerensky's command commit far worse crimes than killing just one child (or entire city for that matter)? After all, SLDF wasn't made to look good and be nice, they were oppressing countless individuals.

If Amaris did what he did because he believed he acts for the greater good (even if it was of his greater good only, a Robin-Hood self-explanation of a kind), what use would classical notions of good and evil have to judge him?

All of them had blood on their hands. Lots of blood. This is the part of the game. The morality in this game is not about the sacrifices made but the final outcome. Alexandr Kerensky took certain decision and then fled its consequences, leaving chaos.
« Last Edit: 31 March 2015, 14:06:18 by Kret69 »

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #23 on: 31 March 2015, 14:06:32 »
I too voted Amaris. Anyone who in universe is equated on a regular basis with a certain real-world figure of evil has to have well and truly crossed over the Moral Event Horizon.

Plus, Amaris had the Pope murdered. Speaking as a Catholic, that's a special kind of evil right there, IMO. (And that's all I'm going to say -- I don't want to be the cause of Rule 4 getting dropped on this thread.)

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #24 on: 31 March 2015, 14:35:34 »
Dude, the SLDF just got done conducting a 20 odd year war on it's lonesome.

 I'm just saying to be fair to Alex, you can't gig him for disobeying illegal orders, can you?

Difference between disobeying order and swinging the army around for a planned invasion of your homeworlds. He prosecuted that war without any authority, whatsoever.
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     - Orders of Emperor Stefan Amaris to his troops

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #25 on: 31 March 2015, 14:43:09 »
Difference between disobeying order and swinging the army around for a planned invasion of your homeworlds. He prosecuted that war without any authority, whatsoever.

In fairness, by that time, IIRC, there was no lawful authority left to issue him orders -- Amaris had decapitated the chain of command during Operation Apotheosis. While Emperor Amaris styled himself the First Lord of the Star League, Director-General of the Terran Hegemony &c., he had gained those posts by unlawful means which meant that Kerensky was under no obligation to obey him.
« Last Edit: 31 March 2015, 14:46:45 by Pat Payne »

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #26 on: 31 March 2015, 14:43:27 »
I too voted Amaris. Anyone who in universe is equated on a regular basis with a certain real-world figure of evil has to have well and truly crossed over the Moral Event Horizon.

Plus, Amaris had the Pope murdered. Speaking as a Catholic, that's a special kind of evil right there, IMO. (And that's all I'm going to say -- I don't want to be the cause of Rule 4 getting dropped on this thread.)

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #27 on: 31 March 2015, 14:44:10 »
Clicked "quote" whan I should have clicked "modify"

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« Last Edit: 31 March 2015, 14:45:49 by Pat Payne »

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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #28 on: 31 March 2015, 15:05:16 »
In fairness, by that time, IIRC, there was no lawful authority left to issue him orders -- Amaris had decapitated the chain of command during Operation Apotheosis. While Emperor Amaris styled himself the First Lord of the Star League, Director-General of the Terran Hegemony &c., he had gained those posts by unlawful means which meant that Kerensky was under no obligation to obey him.

The Star League Council still existed. I'd say that they're an 'authority,' especially since they had the power to strip him of his position as Protector after the war. So I'd say they had the power to vote and either send him into the Hegemony or order him to stand down.
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Re: Who is Guilty of the Greater Crime: Amaris or Kerensky?
« Reply #29 on: 31 March 2015, 15:05:39 »
Ameris.

Kerensky was acquitted.
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