Was Ulric a traitor?

[FedComGirl]

Good point and if the Truce amounted to 3 generations of warriors not being allowed to fight the IS being genocide then what about the generations before Revival?

If not being able to attack over a Truce line for 15 years leaving lots of other targets is Genocide what were the Clans doing in the two and a half centuries before they invaded?  ??? 

They were fighting each other and bandits. Now they also have IS forces to fight. There was no Genocide. It was a made up charge that all the Crusaders could get behind to disgrace Ulric.

[solmanian]

The only single thing that I might see as a mistake on Ulric's part would be the 15 year long truce. For the Clans, that is way, way too long since their generations are so much shorter than what's typical in the Inner Sphere. I think 10 years would have been better or possibly even just 5 years....of course, the Inner Sphere would have hated it but that still would have given everyone a bit of a breather. Everything else...I would say he did fine in terms of how the Clans operate.

Heavy risk (15yr)... But the prize!!! (Terra)
It was essentially a trial for "winning" the invasion; or at least completing a very important part of it.

[misterpants]

But after victory the Jade Falcons Khans claimed that it was actually a trial of Ansorption.  So technically they did not prove anything about Ulric, they gave that up by playing fast and loose with the focus of the trial after the fact.  And then Vlad overturned that as well.  Crichell and Chistu did nothing that an unbloodnamed warrior could not undo.

That sounds...convoluted. Did the source books ever officially state the end status of the trial after all of that?

And Ulric did not betray the Clans

Honestly, the Trial system makes most of this discussion moot for every Clanner. (Outside looking in is another story.)  It comes down to that binary question of:

Did Ulric win his ToR? Then he would not be a traitor.

Did Ulric lose his ToR? Then he would be a traitor.

[skiltao]

Ulric had to order the Jaguars to leave the battle.  He was not 'solicited' by their forces once their Khans appeared to be out of commission, nor did they act upon 'advice'.  They wished to remain and continue to fight.  Now, either Ulric had no authority (as you suggested in the above quote) and overstepped his boundaries here or he had authority and used none of it except for this rare occurrence and the entire Trial portion for Clan Wolf.
<snip>
Ulric could have enforced minimum bids or limited the significant cuts to the bids, among other things.
<snip>
He didn't personally agree with the invasion, so he used his position as leader of the invasion to stop it. 
<snip>
Ulric was ilKhan.  He was responsible for the entire trial, and was not simply an advisor.

Ordering the Jags to withdraw from a campaign is within the Ilkhan's purview. However, he cannot advise how they should withdraw unless invited to do so. (Lost Destiny indicates that Ulric was responsible for the terms of the Trial but not for its execution. For the Trial itself, he was in fact limited to an advisory role. The other Khans do not appear to fault him for failing to volunteer advice.)

Assuming you aren't discussing this in-character, there are three problems with your argument. First, the Truce merely delays the invasion; it does not stop it. Second, a victory on Tukayyid (potential Warden IlClan) was not incompatible with Ulric's agenda. Third, assuming* that Ulric could have guaranteed the victory, guaranteed victory is antithetical to the Clan Way; the kind of meddling you suggest would undercut Ulric's political capital, and may have been sufficient grounds for his removal.

*Source for the IlKhan being able to dictate bidding limits?

[solmanian]

Did Ulric win his ToR? Then he would not be a traitor.

Did Ulric lose his ToR? Then he would be a traitor.

Except the trial wasn't about treason... It was about a ridiculous charge of genocide, that even the accusers didn't believe in and expected for Ulric to dismiss (which was well within his right as ilKhan); instead he blow it out of proportion, and turned it into a life or death trial for the falcons. Even if he lost, no one would've seriously consider him guilty of genocide.

The falcons didn't have to be drawn into a mutual trial of annihilation.
It's like arguing with your friend about who's  the best power rangers. You say the white ranger, he says the green ranger. Than he pulls out a knife. You could pull out a baseball bat and escalate the argument; but the smart thing would be to simply say "green ranger it is".
The falcons could've "throw" the trial by responding to Ulric clan-bid, by purposely underbidding. Instead of risking their entire clan on a trial whose results aren't really that important, they could've bid a Solhama cluster; than clan Wolf would've had to bid down to a more "saner" bid, or else the clans would never let them live down  the "it took the entire wolf touman to beat a single falcon solhama cluster...".
Than again, that would require the falcons choosing the thought-out, calculated, common-sense and sane option...

[rebs]

That sounds...convoluted. Did the source books ever officially state the end status of the trial after all of that?

Honestly, the Trial system makes most of this discussion moot for every Clanner. (Outside looking in is another story.)  It comes down to that binary question of:

Did Ulric win his ToR? Then he would not be a traitor.

Did Ulric lose his ToR? Then he would be a traitor.

It is convoluted.  :)  Off the top of my head I cannot recall a source confirming the results as the original charges are concerned.

The Trial was initially a Trial of Refusal against the charges of Genocide against the Clans.  But after narrowly winning the trial through a great deal of treachery in the form of artillery attacks after a batchall for honorable combat had been issued, the Jade Falcon Khans announced that it was not a Trial of Refusal but a Trial of Absorption, and the Falcons were the victors, absorbing Clan Wolf.  The Grand Council cosigned this. 

They then broke them off into an attempted pet Clan called Clan Jade Wolf and were smug to have subdued the Wolf until Vlad who would become Khan Vlad Ward in time fought and killed the treacherous saKhan of the Falcons to reverse that decision, whereby he declared the foundation of what he basically called the true Clan Wolf, the surviving Crusaders and some Wardens as well.

Hopefully this is a clearer summation.  It comes from not only sourcebooks like ER: 3062 (and the older Fasa sources), but several novels as well.  Ulric Kerensky was a warrior born, as Vlad declared in the GC after becoming Khan.  No one could contradict him on that.  Even he agreed Ulric was not a traitor, I take from this. 

[FedComGirl]

Except the trial wasn't about treason... It was about a ridiculous charge of genocide, that even the accusers didn't believe in and expected for Ulric to dismiss (which was well within his right as ilKhan); instead he blow it out of proportion, and turned it into a life or death trial for the falcons. Even if he lost, no one would've seriously consider him guilty of genocide.

He couldn't. The charge would remain and fester within the crusaders. He had to fight it. And he also had no choice but to go big. They Crusaders were out to discredit him and destroy the truce. If he had bid anything less than Clan Wolf the odds would have been so against him that he couldn't win. As it was it was, the Jade Falcons only won because of unClanlike tactics. Technically since Ulric lost he was a traitor but the Critchel? never pushed that because if he did his tactics would have been called into question and another trial of refusal launched that the Falcon's couldn't win. Instead he made it a Trial of Absorption.

The falcons didn't have to be drawn into a mutual trial of annihilation.
It's like arguing with your friend about who's  the best power rangers. You say the white ranger, he says the green ranger. Than he pulls out a knife. You could pull out a baseball bat and escalate the argument; but the smart thing would be to simply say "green ranger it is".
The falcons could've "throw" the trial by responding to Ulric clan-bid, by purposely underbidding. Instead of risking their entire clan on a trial whose results aren't really that important, they could've bid a Solhama cluster; than clan Wolf would've had to bid down to a more "saner" bid, or else the clans would never let them live down  the "it took the entire wolf touman to beat a single falcon solhama cluster...".
Than again, that would require the falcons choosing the thought-out, calculated, common-sense and sane option...

The Falcons and Wolves weren't friends. They were allied against a mutual enemy but not friends.
The results of the trial were also incredibly important. If Ulric was disgraced and the Truce invalidated the invasion would have resumed. That's what the Crusaders wanted. The Falcons didn't want to throw the trial. They wanted to win and discredit Ulric and destroy the truce. That's why the charge of genocide int he first place. If they underbid and Ulric won the truce would have remained. Why even bring Ulric up on charges if they were going to let him win? And like I said above nothing else but bidding Clan Wolf would have given Ulric a chance to win. The Crusaders would have seen to it that Ulric's forces faced more than they could handle. Except they never expected him to bid an entire Clan. That was once force they couldn't easily over whelm.

Since Ulric lost, the invasion could have restarted but no clan was in good enough shape except  Phelan's Wolves and they had their orders. That satisfied the Warden in Ulrich but even if he'd won the invasion would have resumed unless outside events prevented it. Like the forming of the 2nd Star League. That's something I would love to know how Ulric handled. 

[Warpimp]

That is one of the questions I would like to know. What di Ulric do tobprepare the CLANS for battle against the Inner Sphere? He must have considered that the IS would launch a counter attack at some point. In faxt that was half the point od the Truce. The truce by the way wouldn't have just made Wolf the ilClan the Clans would have had to trial for Terra in a war that would make the refusal war look like a border dust up.

[Arkansas Warrior]

As we'll as they listened to his advice on Tukayyid, what do you think these greatest-warrior-society-in-history, homo sapiens parabellum types would have said when Ulric suggested they prepare themselves for a counterattack by dirty spheroid surats?  I'm pretty sure it would've been along the likes of "Clan Wolf can do as they please if they fear mongrel freebirths, clan Jade Falcon(/Smoke Jaguar/etc) fears no one!" 

[Warpimp]

The thing is, Ulric has shown time and time again that he can manipulate any situation to his desired ends. I don't doubt his competence. During all of this time he never manipulated this gs to help the Clans that he was the leader of, win despite themselves.

[rebs]

I can concede that Ulric is not above politically rocking someone right where you get the most points, if they are not paying attention to the moves he can possibly make, even if cornered politically. 

Example: Jade Falcons thought a cluster on cluster battle was about to ensue, it seems.  The Falcons had no idea Ulric was going to go for the throat in his defense.  But he understood that it was not about his defense, it was about crippling the Crusader movement in a worse way than the Falcons and others had attempted to undermine the Warden leadership of Clan Wolf for so long.  From ilKhan Leo Showers onward.  By hitting the Falcons as hard as he did, leaving both Clans susceptible to calls for Absorption at worst, he made Smoke Jaguar the dominant Clan in the process.  Which lead to a growing focus on them as the enemy of everyone in existence, culminating in the Twilight of the Clans novels and the demise of the Jags. 

He was a real bastard.  But he did not betray the Clans.  Ulric fought the Crusaders as they fought him, and in the end he won to a certain extent.    His spawn was not wiped out, Katya Kerensky is (errr, was) living proof.  That would be part of the punishment for his crimes against the Clans, were they true.  We have no word about his sibkos, but I would not be surprised if he did not have many in both Wolf Clans.  Just because why not? 

[Sid]

Hmm? When did Vald's Khanship became part of the discussion?

There's been past debates on these boards where Vlad's treatment of the Wardens in the '60s were heavily criticized. Many of the same people have defended Ulric for doing the same thing, on a grand scale.

Than they must absorbed parts of clan Hydra, because when I look at the faction list, it seems two more clan Wolf, have taken it's place. HAIL HYDRAWOLF!  >:D

Clan Wolf was Absorbed on Dec 10th 3057, at which point it had ceased to exist.  Had it not been for Vlad outmaneuvering Ulric's plan at the last step, Clan Wolf would not have been resurrected.

While there are many 'Wolf' Factions, under Clan Law:
-  Clan Wolf (in Exile) are technically former Falcons, as they were Abjured by their saKhan, Vandervan Chistu, on Wotan.
-  Nicholas Kerensky's Clan Wolf is dead.  It was Absorbed on Dec. 10th 3057 for being guilty of High Treason.
-  The 21st Clan, Clan Jade Wolf, ceased to exist ~24th of Dec. 3057
-  The 22nd Clan, Clan Wolf, was founded by Khan Vlad Ward of Clan Jade Wolf.

Ordering the Jags to withdraw from a campaign is within the Ilkhan's purview. However, he cannot advise how they should withdraw unless invited to do so. (Lost Destiny indicates that Ulric was responsible for the terms of the Trial but not for its execution. For the Trial itself, he was in fact limited to an advisory role. The other Khans do not appear to fault him for failing to volunteer advice.)

Ulric ordered only Alpha and Beta Galaxies to withdraw.  Beta complied, while Alpha continued to fight and was nearly wiped out as a result.

...interestingly enough, the Comstar sourcebook notes that the Smoke Jaguars nearly crippled Comstar and won the Clans a victory on Tukayyid as Alpha Galaxy managed to get within 30km of Focht's Command bunker before they were wiped out.

Assuming you aren't discussing this in-character, there are three problems with your argument. First, the Truce merely delays the invasion; it does not stop it. Second, a victory on Tukayyid (potential Warden IlClan) was not incompatible with Ulric's agenda. Third, assuming* that Ulric could have guaranteed the victory, guaranteed victory is antithetical to the Clan Way; the kind of meddling you suggest would undercut Ulric's political capital, and may have been sufficient grounds for his removal.

*Source for the IlKhan being able to dictate bidding limits?

1)  Multiple sources state that Tukayyid bought the Inner Sphere significant time to better prepare a defense.  The charge that finally convicted Ulric was based around the 15 year Truce, as it was too long due to the quicker generations the Clans have.  Finally, halting the Invasion also allowed Ulric more time to prevent the Invasion.  See the Refusal War.

2)  It is absolutely incompatible with Ulric's agenda.  See Warriors of Kerensky, Field Manual: Warden Clans, or Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans.  The Wolf Clan Sourcebook too.  The Falcon and The Wolf outright states it's against everything he believes in.  The Warden belief is to remain outside the Inner Sphere and only return until invited as a new Star League's Defense Force.  The goal of the Invasion was to take Terra- so a victory by the Clans on Tukayyid would mean the Invasion was a success which is against everything Ulric believed in.  His ensuring a Clan Wolf victory was simply a safety net should the Clans succeed:  He'd be able to minimize the damage of the Clans conquering the Inner Sphere.

Again, Phelan asks why Natasha and Ulric are trying to 'win' in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy.  It's the same reason that Phelan himself joins Clan Wolf:  It's to minimize damage.  Natasha (as I recall) states that IF they can't stop the Inner Sphere from falling to the Clans, falling to a Warden Clan is better than falling to a Crusader one.   

3)  Ulric guaranteed a defeat instead of doing his job.  Phelan himself states on Page 54 of Warriors of Kerensky something to the effect of:  "Ulric abused his position as ilKhan to further the Warden cause on Tukayyid"

*  -  The Batchall entries in any Clan sourcebook (such as Warriors of Kerensky, Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans or the Wolf Clan Sourcebook) .  The Attacker sets the cutdown and minimum bids, and the Subcommanders then bid amongst themselves.  See page 54 of  Warriors of Kerensky under the ilKhan section:  Phelan states that the ilKhan cannot do anything about internal bidding by on the forces on the ground within a Clan.  I.e, he cannot prevent the internal bidding between Alpha and Beta Galaxies within Smoke Jaguar, but he can influence External bidding between, say, Smoke Jaguar and Nova Cat.

Both of which, by the way, are noted in the Comstar sourcebook (among other sources on Tukayyid) that they bidded dangerously close to the cutdown (which would have been set by Ulric...) to attempt at regaining their honour after their defeat at Luthien.

And again, we know Ulric used his position as ilKhan to engineer a loss from both Focht (Lost Destiny) and Phelan (Warriors of Kerensky)


Now that I've provided numerous examples and sources- including past posts in this thread- where are your sources?  I see plenty of people defending Ulric, and even so far as going to say he didn't work against the invasion. 

Do you have a source that says that Ulric did his job on Tukayyid?  That he actively tried to say, help the Clans win?

I've seen people suggest that he activated reserve Clans to help out the Invasion but page 20 (as I recall) of Warriors of Kerensky has Phelan stating that Ulric finally activated reserve Clans (Nova Cats, Steel Vipers and Diamond Sharks) because he was pressured to do so by the other Clans' Khans. 

[Neo-Tanuki]

I have two opinions on this issue-one from an 'in-universe' point of view and one from my perspective as someone reading the novels and sourcebook fiction.

In-universe, Ulric never denied he was a Warden; he opposed the Invasion prior to its launch and even fought the Trial of Refusal against the go-vote.

Clan culture is competitive. Once Clan Wolf was in the Invasion, Ulric used adaptability and flexibiity to increase his Clan's power and status by conquering more worlds than the other invaders.

So was he a traitor? I don't see it that way because it was the other Crusader Clans who made him IlKhan after Leo Showers' death, and he made no secret about his feelings about the invasion.

I DO think he was a terrible choice as IlKhan if the Crusaders wanted to succeed. His opposition to the invasion was clear; once in charge he paired the Falcons and Jaguars with reserve Clans they hated and were certain to have problems cooperating with. He deliberately set up the other Invaders into difficult situations to provide the Wolves with an advantage. At every turn, Ulric used his position to enhance the Wolves at the expense of the other Invaders.

But that said, I think he was a hypocrite, at least based on the post-Invasion fiction. In the BoK trilogy, he goes on and on how much better the Wolves treat their conquered worlds than the other Invaders, and why it's so important the Wolves dominate so that the Inner Sphere is happy and content under Wolf rule. But he does nothing to stop Vlad beating an old man nearly to death for the crime of begging for help after the Wolves razed their city, and he doesn't seem to have made any efforts to reign in the excesses of Wolf commanders like Star Colonel Marcos Radick (who, IIRC, was specifically targeted by Rasalhague forces for his brutality toward conquered populations. For all his high-minded speeches, Ulric's main goal to me seems to have simply been to advance the power and status of the Wolves. So yeah, an outstanding Khan for the Wolves, but a lousy IlKhan for the Clans as a whole, in my opinion.

From a fiction/meta standpoint, the scene where the Crusaders VOLUNTARILY elect Ulric as supreme leader was absurd, and Stackpole's rationalization in the narrative was ridiculous. "Oh, we'll appoint a second-in-command from our ranks who will make Ulric do exactly what we say, so we'll control everything!" Really?

I found a lot of the rationalizations for the Wolves' behavior in the early Clan Invasion sourcebooks and fiction dubious. The whole idea of them opposing the Invasion and then being automatically granted a corridor, Ulric's election as IlKhan...it really felt like to me like the writers at that time were trying to reconcile the whole "The Wolves are the best fighters" and "The Wolves are the nice Clan who likes the Inner Sphere" themes, and were not doing it well. I don't like Vlad Ward as a character at all, but I find the descriptions of the Wolves under his rule a lot more believable (and interesting, especially in the Wars of Reaving).

[Archangel]

There's been past debates on these boards where Vlad's treatment of the Wardens in the '60s were heavily criticized. Many of the same people have defended Ulric for doing the same thing, on a grand scale.

Big difference between the two that you are ignoring.  Ulric gave the Crusaders the opportunities to earn glory - it wasn't his fault they couldn't get the job done, while Vlad sidelined the Wardens as soon as possible.

-  Clan Wolf (in Exile) are technically former Falcons, as they were Abjured by their saKhan, Vandervan Chistu, on Wotan.

After he illegally changed a Trial of Refusal into a Trial of Absorption.  (Note:  the Falcons weren't just representing themselves in the trial, they were representing the Grand Council.  Chistu never had the authority to make the change on his own.)

-  Nicholas Kerensky's Clan Wolf is dead.  It was Absorbed on Dec. 10th 3057 for being guilty of High Treason.

Completely incorrect.  If they had been guilty of high treason it would have been a Trial of Annihilation not Absorption.

Ulric ordered only Alpha and Beta Galaxies to withdraw.  Beta complied, while Alpha continued to fight and was nearly wiped out as a result.

The Smoke Jaguars only deployed elements of Alpha and Beta Galaxies to Tukayyid.  If the Smoke Jaguars were going to ignore an order that made perfect sense and the ilKhan's order would have mitigated their disgrace ("we didn't want to withdraw but the ilKhan ordered us to, we had no choice but to obey"), why would they bother heeding any advice given by him?

...interestingly enough, the Comstar sourcebook notes that the Smoke Jaguars nearly crippled Comstar and won the Clans a victory on Tukayyid as Alpha Galaxy managed to get within 30km of Focht's Command bunker before they were wiped out.

Pure speculation as to whether the remnants of the 122nd Striker Cluster would have been able to defeat Focht and his bodyguard unit.  Regardless it would likely have had little affect on the Smoke Jaguar's eventual defeat.  However, there is a good chance that Focht's defeat would have made things easier for the other Clans.

3)  Ulric guaranteed a defeat instead of doing his job.  Phelan himself states on Page 54 of Warriors of Kerensky something to the effect of:  "Ulric abused his position as ilKhan to further the Warden cause on Tukayyid"

No matter how much you might want it otherwise, the Warden cause, no matter how pro-IS, was still a Clan cause.  His actions (or inactions) may have hurt the Crusader cause but they certainly helped the Warden cause.

[Sid]

Big difference between the two that you are ignoring.  Ulric gave the Crusaders the opportunities to earn glory - it wasn't his fault they couldn't get the job done, while Vlad sidelined the Wardens as soon as possible.

Thank you for proving my point for Solmanian.

After he illegally changed a Trial of Refusal into a Trial of Absorption.  (Note:  the Falcons weren't just representing themselves in the trial, they were representing the Grand Council.  Chistu never had the authority to make the change on his own.)

Source, please? 

Ulric did it by bidding all of Clan Wolf

Here:

Bred for War

"Ah, but it is."  Ulric reached out and touched four worlds in the Jade Falcon occupation zone. "I am going to hit you on Colmar, Dompaire, Sudaten, and Zoetermeer.  After I have beaten you there, I will push up and through your occupation zone.  To defend your position, you will have to defeat me throughout your zone."

[Elias Chrichell] "And I will attack back into your zone."

"Go ahead.  What use will our worlds be to you when I have destroyed your Galaxies?"

"You are telling me you will turn this contest into a Trial of Absorption!"

"No, it is a Trial of Refusal- a refusal to let you destroy the Clans.  If the Wolves perish to save the rest, so be it."
 
Crichell's face began to turn red.  "This is madness, Ulric.  It is suicidal."

[Ulric then explains how Phelan and Natasha are examples of why Inner Sphere warriors are better than Clan: They know how to live, 'not make war'

[Elias] "You cannot win"

"Nor can you"

Natasha stepped forward.  "Phelan, please escort Khan Elias from this place.  He has not bargained well, but the bidding is done.  We choose to bid everything Clan Wolf has to stop him, and the Jade Falcons must bid just as high if they hope to surive."

Note that:

1)  Elias immediately comes to the conclusion that Ulric has turned the Trial of Refusal into a Trial of Absorption when the full extent of the bid is revealed.
2)  Ulric is not surprised by this conclusion.  Nor is Natasha or Phelan.  Instead, Ulric's response to the exclamation that the Trial is now one of Absorption is that sacrificing Clan Wolf is worth preventing a renewed invasion.  (Ulric, Phelan and Natasha all agree on pitting the two Clans in a fight to the death earlier in the book).
3)  Natasha states that should the Jade Falcons underbid (and throw the Trial as Solmanian suggested earlier in the thread) the Jade Falcons would die.  I.e, Be Absorbed.

Completely incorrect.  If they had been guilty of high treason it would have been a Trial of Annihilation not Absorption.

Source, please?

Because Ulric was found guilty of High Treason already and his punishment was simply being removed from the ilKhan position.

On the page preceding my quote from Bred for War above, there was no intended punishment against Clan Wolf for losing the Trial of Refusal:

Bred for War

The leader of the Wolves straightened up again, giving Quarell a kick to close the window.  "You have your Peregrine Galaxy down there, quiaff?"

"You are no longer ilKhan, Ulric.  I am not obliged to answer your questions about my troop dispositions."  Crichell tugged at his tunic to straighten it, but sweat had already begun to darken the green garment beneath the Khan's armpits.  He turned to glare at Natasha.  "We will stop you at Colmar, then a new ilKhan will be elected."

"Which you expect to be you."

"That may be."

Ulric folded his arms across his chest.  "Then I will challenge the election, and you will have to defend again."

Crichell frowned heavily.  "Have I misjudged you Wolves?"

From the above, we can see that (as The Falcon and the Wolf states) that the Jade Falcons had assumed the Refusal was going to be a simple Trial, and should they defeat Ulric and the Wolves, Ulric would remain a Star Colonel and the Invasion would resume.

There was no intention of killing Ulric, no reprisals against Clan Wolf.  The charges were only brought against Ulric to remove him from the ilKhan position in the first place so the Invasion could resume.

With the Falcons unable to resume the Invasion however... that High Treason verdict becomes a lot more serious as the Clans would have to turn their attention on something other than the Inner Sphere.

Which is how Ulric intended it-  that was the stick he attempted to use on Vlad to force him to flee to Arc Royal with the survivors.

 

The Smoke Jaguars only deployed elements of Alpha and Beta Galaxies to Tukayyid.  If the Smoke Jaguars were going to ignore an order that made perfect sense and the ilKhan's order would have mitigated their disgrace ("we didn't want to withdraw but the ilKhan ordered us to, we had no choice but to obey"), why would they bother heeding any advice given by him?

My point is that it's often argued that Ulric could not have given orders on Tukayyid.

Yet he did, and Beta Galaxy obeyed.  Why didn't he order the Sharks to withdraw?  They were virtually exterminated as a Clan on Tukayyid- taking far more losses than the Jaguars did.

It's not stated out right, but the sole time Ulric ordered a Clan other than Wolf to do something... it was to withdraw to 'save' the Clan.  Personally, I think it was to save the Comguards.

 

Pure speculation as to whether the remnants of the 122nd Striker Cluster would have been able to defeat Focht and his bodyguard unit.  Regardless it would likely have had little affect on the Smoke Jaguar's eventual defeat.  However, there is a good chance that Focht's defeat would have made things easier for the other Clans.

They certainly could have.  Focht had no defenses, as he hoped to draw the least amount of attention to himself- he had a single 'mech (His own, an Atlas).

Comstar is quite clear that should the Jaguars have found Focht, they would have very likely lost on Tukayyid.

No matter how much you might want it otherwise, the Warden cause, no matter how pro-IS, was still a Clan cause.  His actions (or inactions) may have hurt the Crusader cause but they certainly helped the Warden cause.

Which is personal opinion, and not something I'm debating.  I'm saying Ulric did not make an honest attempt to lead the Crusaders to victory over the Inner Sphere on Tukayyid and in fact worked against them. 

According to Phelan, that's abuse of his power as ilKhan.  Is that traitorous?  I personally think it is to a degree. 

Although I think the real crime Ulric committed was the Refusal War.

[skiltao]

Ulric ordered only Alpha and Beta Galaxies to withdraw.  Beta complied, while Alpha continued to fight and was nearly wiped out as a result.

He ordered a high-level strategy which is, as I said, within his purview. It does not show that anything else was within his purview.

...interestingly enough, the Comstar sourcebook notes that the Smoke Jaguars nearly crippled Comstar and won the Clans a victory on Tukayyid as Alpha Galaxy managed to get within 30km of Focht's Command bunker before they were wiped out.

That they were wiped out rather vindicates Ulric's order. That they disobeyed the order undercuts the notion that he could exert any real control over the other Clans.

1)  Multiple sources state that Tukayyid bought the Inner Sphere significant time to better prepare a defense.  The charge that finally convicted Ulric was based around the 15 year Truce, as it was too long due to the quicker generations the Clans have.  Finally, halting the Invasion also allowed Ulric more time to prevent the Invasion.  See the Refusal War.

2)  It is absolutely incompatible with Ulric's agenda.  See Warriors of Kerensky, Field Manual: Warden Clans, or Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans.  The Wolf Clan Sourcebook too.  The Falcon and The Wolf outright states it's against everything he believes in.  The Warden belief is to remain outside the Inner Sphere and only return until invited as a new Star League's Defense Force.  The goal of the Invasion was to take Terra- so a victory by the Clans on Tukayyid would mean the Invasion was a success which is against everything Ulric believed in.  His ensuring a Clan Wolf victory was simply a safety net should the Clans succeed:  He'd be able to minimize the damage of the Clans conquering the Inner Sphere.

Again, Phelan asks why Natasha and Ulric are trying to 'win' in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy.  It's the same reason that Phelan himself joins Clan Wolf:  It's to minimize damage.  Natasha (as I recall) states that IF they can't stop the Inner Sphere from falling to the Clans, falling to a Warden Clan is better than falling to a Crusader one.   

The invasion has already happened, Ulric cannot 'prevent' it. I agree that his goal is to minimize damage--or rather, more specifically (see Phelan during his speech at the end of Lost Destiny) to integrate the Clans into the Inner Sphere as smoothly as possible. Anyone shown to be as Machiavellian as Ulric would have planned multiple acceptable paths to that end; yes, losing Tukayyid is one such path, but winning Tukayyid (with Wolves in control of the integration) is another such path. I would even say that losing was the riskier path.

3)  Ulric guaranteed a defeat instead of doing his job.  Phelan himself states on Page 54 of Warriors of Kerensky something to the effect of:  "Ulric abused his position as ilKhan to further the Warden cause on Tukayyid"

Focht, who has a better understanding of both politics and grand strategy than Phelan does, disagrees in their conversation after the battle. Focht's assessment is that the Khans pushed Ulric to the side. Given your example with the Khanless Jag galaxies earlier, it seems safe to say Ulric would have been ignored even if he had given any orders.

*  -  The Batchall entries in any Clan sourcebook (such as Warriors of Kerensky, Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans or the Wolf Clan Sourcebook) .  The Attacker sets the cutdown and minimum bids, and the Subcommanders then bid amongst themselves.  See page 54 of  Warriors of Kerensky under the ilKhan section:  Phelan states that the ilKhan cannot do anything about internal bidding by on the forces on the ground within a Clan.  I.e, he cannot prevent the internal bidding between Alpha and Beta Galaxies within Smoke Jaguar, but he can influence External bidding between, say, Smoke Jaguar and Nova Cat.

Both of which, by the way, are noted in the Comstar sourcebook (among other sources on Tukayyid) that they bidded dangerously close to the cutdown (which would have been set by Ulric...) to attempt at regaining their honour after their defeat at Luthien.

The "cutdown" is an informal estimate of the force necessary to defeat a given force. It is not a formal limit. Is there actual text somewhere which specifically describes the setting of minimum bids? I'm not aware of any. (Had minimum bids been an actual thing, surely Natasha could not have bid a single unaugmented warrior for the conquest of Gunzberg.)

And again, we know Ulric used his position as ilKhan to engineer a loss from both Focht (Lost Destiny) and Phelan (Warriors of Kerensky)

Suppose you foresee victory, with Crusader Clans strengthened and Warden Clans weakened; if you were to turn that into a victory which strengthens Warden Clans and weakens Crusader Clans, would that not serve the Warden agenda?

Anyways, Phelan (WoK) is referring to the terms and scope of the battle (the Truce, which the Grand Council applauds at the end of this book, and the effect that this level of death and misery has on the popular view of the Crusade); he is not referring to any (in)action Ulric took during the battle. As for Focht's claim that Ulric could have lead the Clans to victory, well, Ulric's whole point there is that the Khans don't listen to him. Phelan realizes that same point, again, during his closing speech.

Now that I've provided numerous examples and sources- including past posts in this thread- where are your sources?  I see plenty of people defending Ulric, and even so far as going to say he didn't work against the invasion. 

Do you have a source that says that Ulric did his job on Tukayyid?  That he actively tried to say, help the Clans win?

The discussion between Ulric and Focht, after the battle, makes it quite clear that helping the other Clans wasn't Ulric's job. Now, I'm not saying he didn't undermine the other Clans! Of course he did. That same conversation hints how he goaded the Jag Khans into underbidding. (That's not treason in the Clans, though.) My argument is that 1) making the Crusaders experience war at this level, regardless of the battle's outcome, serves the Warden agenda; 2) that by weakening the other Clans, Ulric can make sure that both victory and defeat will work to his advantage; and 3) that Ulric couldn't have stopped the other Clans from hanging themselves anyways. I seem to be in complete agreement with you about what Ulric did? The things we are in disagreement about are discussed pretty plainly in Lost Destiny.

For what it's worth, Tukayyid isn't what makes Ulric a traitor. Sending Phelan's Wolves to defend the Inner Sphere? That makes Ulric a traitor.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Thank you for proving my point for Solmanian.

Source, please? 

Ulric did it by bidding all of Clan Wolf

Here:

Note that:

1)  Elias immediately comes to the conclusion that Ulric has turned the Trial of Refusal into a Trial of Absorption when the full extent of the bid is revealed.
2)  Ulric is not surprised by this conclusion.  Nor is Natasha or Phelan.  Instead, Ulric's response to the exclamation that the Trial is now one of Absorption is that sacrificing Clan Wolf is worth preventing a renewed invasion.  (Ulric, Phelan and Natasha all agree on pitting the two Clans in a fight to the death earlier in the book).
3)  Natasha states that should the Jade Falcons underbid (and throw the Trial as Solmanian suggested earlier in the thread) the Jade Falcons would die.  I.e, Be Absorbed.

In the text you yourself quoted, Ulric disagrees with you:

"You are telling me you will turn this contest into a Trial of Absorption!"

"No, it is a Trial of Refusal- a refusal to let you destroy the Clans.  If the Wolves perish to save the rest, so be it."
 
Crichell's face began to turn red.  "This is madness, Ulric.  It is suicidal."



Emphasis mine.  That Ulric bid his whole clan might make it a de facto absorption, but that does not change the de jure nature of the trial.  Just as the Star Adders absorption of the Blood Spirits was a de facto annihilation because they didn't retain any of the absorbed assets, but that doesn't change the fact that it was legally an absorption.

[Archangel]

Note that:
2)  Ulric is not surprised by this conclusion.  Nor is Natasha or Phelan.  Instead, Ulric's response to the exclamation that the Trial is now one of Absorption is that sacrificing Clan Wolf is worth preventing a renewed invasion.  (Ulric, Phelan and Natasha all agree on pitting the two Clans in a fight to the death earlier in the book).

Did you even bother to read what you quoted?  He clearly states that it is still a Trial of Refusal NOT a Trial of Absorption.

3)  Natasha states that should the Jade Falcons underbid (and throw the Trial as Solmanian suggested earlier in the thread) the Jade Falcons would die.  I.e, Be Absorbed.

Or it could be Natasha being Natasha throwing out barbs to throw the Falcon Khan off his game even more.

Source, please?

Because Ulric was found guilty of High Treason already and his punishment was simply being removed from the ilKhan position.

Piece of advice reread what you write before you post.  You stated that Clan Wolf was absorbed for being guilty of high treason.  Which is completely incorrect.  That wasn't even Chistu's (or even Crichell's) rationale.  Chistu's justification was that Clan Wolf turned the Trial into a defacto Trial of Absorption when they bid everything in the Trial of Refusal.

Per Warrior of Kerensky (p64), the standard punishment for treason is execution of the individual and likely all progeny as well.  The entire trial was a political maneuver (and author fiat aside), trying to execute the most successful Warden Khan would have led to a backlash that the Crusaders weren't willing to risk.

On the page preceding my quote from Bred for War above, there was no intended punishment against Clan Wolf for losing the Trial of Refusal:

From the above, we can see that (as The Falcon and the Wolf states) that the Jade Falcons had assumed the Refusal was going to be a simple Trial, and should they defeat Ulric and the Wolves, Ulric would remain a Star Colonel and the Invasion would resume.

There was no intention of killing Ulric, no reprisals against Clan Wolf.  The charges were only brought against Ulric to remove him from the ilKhan position in the first place so the Invasion could resume.

With the Falcons unable to resume the Invasion however... that High Treason verdict becomes a lot more serious as the Clans would have to turn their attention on something other than the Inner Sphere.

Which is how Ulric intended it-  that was the stick he attempted to use on Vlad to force him to flee to Arc Royal with the survivors.

So by your logic with the Falcons unable to resume the invasion, they are going to further weaken their forces by continuing the conflict against the Wolves which in turn would further delay their ability to resume the invasion and open their IS holdings to Viper predation.   ::)
 

My point is that it's often argued that Ulric could not have given orders on Tukayyid.

Sure he could have given orders, but that doesn't mean the Clans had to obey him.  If he had tried to be the Clan equivalent of Focht overseeing all the individual Clan campaigns and giving directions, most of the other Clans would have simply ignored him.  Any attempt to make things easier for the Clans to win, such as forbidding Batchall during the battle, would have resulted in angry protest and possibly even a trial or two.  Not to mention that much of his advice while perfectly sound Wolf strategies/tactics were likely considered either too Wolf or chalcas by the other Clans.

Yet he did, and Beta Galaxy obeyed.  Why didn't he order the Sharks to withdraw?  They were virtually exterminated as a Clan on Tukayyid- taking far more losses than the Jaguars did.

It's not stated out right, but the sole time Ulric ordered a Clan other than Wolf to do something... it was to withdraw to 'save' the Clan.  Personally, I think it was to save the Comguards.

The Sharks were in a completely different situation.  One, their Khans remained in command of their forces through the entire battle.  Two, while they had suffered some heavy losses, they were not in danger of being completely annihilated until the Smoke Jaguars' withdrawal enabled Focht to redeploy troops to cut the Clan off from their supplies.  Three, at that point the Diamond Shark Khans realized that they were in danger of being annihilated and voluntarily chose to withdraw (if they made it back to their DropShips).  As far as Ulric was aware, once the Jaguars withdrew, their ComGuard opponents could have been redeployed against any Clan including Clan Wolf.  Its also clearly stated that the Sixth Jaguar Dragoons viewed his withdrawal order as a Wolf insult rather than

They certainly could have.  Focht had no defenses, as he hoped to draw the least amount of attention to himself- he had a single 'mech (His own, an Atlas).

Comstar is quite clear that should the Jaguars have found Focht, they would have very likely lost on Tukayyid.

So you consider a bodyguard unit of SL-era assault 'Mechs nothing?  Okaay.   ::)

The scenario gives the 122nd Striker Cluster 35 light Omnis (after the ambush) against 13 SL-era assault Mechs and some infantry.  Using zell, Focht and his bodyguards could have held their own.

Which is personal opinion, and not something I'm debating.  I'm saying Ulric did not make an honest attempt to lead the Crusaders to victory over the Inner Sphere on Tukayyid and in fact worked against them.

Lead the Crusaders?  Since when did he ever promise to lead the Crusaders?  He may have been honorbound to lead the Clan Invasion but it was his choice as to how to lead it.  That said the other Khans always had the option of declaring a Trial against him (which they eventually did).

According to Phelan, that's abuse of his power as ilKhan.  Is that traitorous?  I personally think it is to a degree. 

Although I think the real crime Ulric committed was the Refusal War.

Well as you are obviously a Crusader that is clearly your opinion but then to Crusaders Edwina Carns avoiding killing or even wounding Spheroid warriors is treasonous as well.

[rebs]

Besides, and best of all, regardless of what the trial was, the original outcome of Ulric and his Wolf forces being obliterated on Wotan ending the Trial of Refusalsorption was reversed and therefore not valid.  The trial is moot and there can be no guilt.  Indeed, nothing in any canonical text indicates that anyone besides certain members of the Crusader political faction think of Ulric Kerensky as a traitor. 

Vlad Ward got beyond his own Crusader views to become an admirer of Ulric Kerensky, so there is hope, am I wrong for inferring that?

And on the other side of the coin...

If the Crusader Clans made it easy for others to manipulate them (and I assure all skeptical readers, the Crusaders did in fact show Ulric their "manipulation button" by consistently doing nothing or the opposite of what he advised them to do.  It does not take an evil genius to learn how to pull people's strings that way) then who is Ulric to pass up such a powerful weapon?  Just give the other Clans solid advice and watch the predictable results.  I sometimes wonder how Ulric kept a straight face through it all.   :)

[Krieghund]

I think Ulric has shown fairly consistently throughout his career that he would put the IS over the Clans. From sitting in on Kerlin Ward telling the Dragoons to ignore the Grand Councils mandate, to setting his Clan up to fail the Refusal War. So yeah, I go with traitor.

[Archangel]

Vlad Ward got beyond his own Crusader views to become an admirer of Ulric Kerensky, so there is hope, am I wrong for inferring that?

Vlad remained an ignorant buffoon until his death at the hands of the Hell's Horses.  While Ulric critically weakened Clan Wolf following the Warden cause, Vlad tried his best to put Clan Wolf in the ground.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I think Ulric has shown fairly consistently throughout his career that he would put the IS over the Clans. From sitting in on Kerlin Ward telling the Dragoons to ignore the Grand Councils mandate, to setting his Clan up to fail the Refusal War. So yeah, I go with traitor.

The entire Warden position is that the Clans should be protectors of the IS.  That's not unique to Ulric, it's a position that dates back to the SLDF-in-exile under Aleksandr Kerensky.

To all citizens of the Inner Sphere do I, Aleksandr Kerensky, send greetings.


Know that I have taken the remnant of the Star League Defense Force which has remained true to its purpose beyond the boundaries of the Inner Sphere, beyond the Periphery. I have done this, neither out of disappointment with those whom we leave behind, nor out of spite or disdain, as some will say. No, we have left the Inner Sphere because we love it too much to see it destroyed. In the wake of the Usurper's coup, and the long, bitter fighting that came with it, I fear that my forces would do incalculable, possibly irreparable, harm to our society. We are sworn to ward the Star League and its subjects, not destroy it.


Thus, we have left the only homes we have ever known to place the destructive capability of this armada beyond the reach of those who would use it, not for defense, but for conquest. Perhaps, with the might of our 'Mechs and ships out of reach, the leaders who now grapple with one another will relinquish their dreams of subjugating their neighbors and learn to live in peace with them.


Perhaps, one day, should mankind step back from the brink of the abyss, we, our children, or our children's children will return, to once more serve and protect and guide the Star League in mankind's quest for the stars.

[E. Icaza]

And sure the SLDF-in-Exile might have returned but, as it has been pointed out, the Clans are NOT the SLDF.  They went through their own Succession Wars and purged themselves.  The Warden philosophy is based on The Great Father's philosophy, but the Pentagon Revolt showed that he was hopelessly naive in regards to human nature, preferring to deal with humanity as he thought they should be.  The Founder was a better judge of actual human nature and dealt with human nature as it actually is.

In truth, Ulric's meddling and the Warden philosophy doomed both the Clans and the Inner Sphere to endless massive and destructive conflicts, since it denied the Clans the opportunity to complete the conquest of the Inner Sphere and rebuild it in the Clan mold.

[rebs]

But only if the Clans could have successfully completed the Crusader mission of conquering the Inner Sphere. 

Ulric's various meddling and manipulation ended when it came to how the affairs of each of the Clans were carried out, as those were decisions made purely by their Khans.  Which is a little more than can be said for the Crusaders, who wanted to have a puppet Wolf along for the ride during their expected triumph in the Inner Sphere.  Leo Showers was constantly in Wolf business, he made it his business to do so.  Ulric never did anything even remotely like it - though perhaps he could have used his office to directly influence the Crusaders and interfere with their plans by ordering them to comply with his demands (how well would that have flown with the Falcons or Jaguars?). 

As it stands, he tried to tell the other Clans how to combat the Spheroids and their various changing styles of warfare, but the Crusaders would not listen to this for whatever reason, and remained stuck in their ways even in the face of an enemy that reinvented the word evisceration just for them on Tukayyid.  Everything else aside, if the Crusader Clans could not recognize sound advice for what it was, then that can hardly be called a betrayal on the part off Ulric. It was the Crusader's gig, and they balefully failed to perform. 

Electing a Warden IlKhan while they held a majority of political power is only one example of how the Crusaders defeated their own cause.  Ulric may have hated the invasion, but he never betrayed the Clans.   

[BirdofPrey]

In truth, Ulric's meddling and the Warden philosophy doomed both the Clans and the Inner Sphere to endless massive and destructive conflicts,

An ironic comment considering the Crusader cause IS massive and destructive conflicts, and the crusaders claim to have based their philosophy on exactly the same speech by Kerensky, so it isn't any more right than the Warden one and isn't any less of a shallow excuse to justify their actions.

[E. Icaza]

But only if the Clans could have successfully completed the Crusader mission of conquering the Inner Sphere. 

Ulric's various meddling and manipulation ended when it came to how the affairs of each of the Clans were carried out, as those were decisions made purely by their Khans.  Which is a little more than can be said for the Crusaders, who wanted to have a puppet Wolf along for the ride during their expected triumph in the Inner Sphere.  Leo Showers was constantly in Wolf business, he made it his business to do so.  Ulric never did anything even remotely like it - though perhaps he could have used his office to directly influence the Crusaders and interfere with their plans by ordering them to comply with his demands (how well would that have flown with the Falcons or Jaguars?). 

As it stands, he tried to tell the other Clans how to combat the Spheroids and their various changing styles of warfare, but the Crusaders would not listen to this for whatever reason, and remained stuck in their ways even in the face of an enemy that reinvented the word evisceration just for them on Tukayyid.  Everything else aside, if the Crusader Clans could not recognize sound advice for what it was, then that can hardly be called a betrayal on the part off Ulric. It was the Crusader's gig, and they balefully failed to perform. 

Electing a Warden IlKhan while they held a majority of political power is only one example of how the Crusaders defeated their own cause.  Ulric may have hated the invasion, but he never betrayed the Clans.   

[/shrug]  I disagree, and I'm not criticizing Ulric's competence or savvy.  Saddling the CJF and CSJ with hated rival Clans?  Attempting to destroy two Invading Clans, while sending Phelan's Wolves into the IS?  Putting Focht into a position where he had the opportunity to learn how to fight and defeat the Clans?  Ulric knew that if the offensive stalled for any significant length of time then the invasion was doomed as the IS eventually learned to counter Clan tactics and reverse-engineer their tech.  Even worse, a long enough delay introduced the prospect of the Clans being culturally assimilated and ceasing to be Clan.  Ulric struck me as a shrewd enough fellow to realize this and that he apparently wanted these things to happen is why I label him as a traitor.

Ulric's decisions directly led to the death of the Way of the Clans. 

Ulric's actions were every bit as oriented towards furthering the Warden agenda and just as ruthless and treacherous as the actions of Crichell, Showers and many of the Crusader leaders.We're just supposed to see the Wardens as the "good guys" and give them a pass for their treachery and underhandedness while reviling the Crusaders since they're obviously the "bad guys".  The "BoK" Trilogy is told solely from a Warden Clan pov and we don't see the pov of a Crusader Clan until it's all over and done with.

An ironic comment considering the Crusader cause IS massive and destructive conflicts, and the crusaders claim to have based their philosophy on exactly the same speech by Kerensky, so it isn't any more right than the Warden one and isn't any less of a shallow excuse to justify their actions.

And the Clans caused massive and destructive conflicts when they invaded the Pentagon...at first.  Eventually it settled down to a dull rumble with the occasional flare-up of mega-violence.  Why don't you ask the inhabitants of Galedon V or New Dallas if they preferred the constant low-level raiding of the 3rd SW to the destructiveness of the Jihad or the 1st SW. 

Oh wait...you can't...  ;)

[solmanian]

In truth, Ulric's meddling and the Warden philosophy doomed both the Clans and the Inner Sphere to endless massive and destructive conflicts, since it denied the Clans the opportunity to complete the conquest of the Inner Sphere and rebuild it in the Clan mold.

Just read my sig, it's quoted from this very thread.

Clan culture is that of constant war. If the clans have conquered the IS, it wouldn't bring peace; it would escalate the inter clan conflict by several order of magnitudes. The population of the Homeworlds is smaller than most major IS worlds. What would happen if the clans had access to the vast resources and populations of the IS, isn't an academic discussion: you need only look at the brutality of the Combine-dominion wars and the recent falcons brutalities. Clan leaders are elected by their proficiency as killers, not as administrators.


Ulric saved the IS and the clans from the fate of clan-controlled IS. Without an external enemy, the clans would consume each other; and I don't need to extoll the virtues of not leaving under a clan boot...

Ulric's actions were every bit as oriented towards furthering the Warden agenda and just as ruthless and treacherous as the actions of Crichell, Showers and many of the Crusader leaders.We're just supposed to see the Wardens as the "good guys" and give them a pass for their treachery and underhandedness while reviling the Crusaders since they're obviously the "bad guys".  The "BoK" Trilogy is told solely from a Warden Clan pov and we don't see the pov of a Crusader Clan until it's all over and done with.

What we're arguing is, that of all those ilkhans, only the warden one is accused of being a "traitor", not the other way around...

[E. Icaza]

Just read my sig, it's quoted from this very thread.

Clan culture is that of constant war. If the clans have conquered the IS, it wouldn't bring peace; it would escalate the inter clan conflict by several order of magnitudes. The population of the Homeworlds is smaller than most major IS worlds. What would happen if the clans had access to the vast resources and populations of the IS, isn't an academic discussion: you need only look at the brutality of the Combine-dominion wars and the recent falcons brutalities. Clan leaders are elected by their proficiency as killers, not as administrators.  Ulric saved the IS and the clans from the fate of clan-controlled IS. Without an external enemy, the clans would consume each other; and I don't need to extoll the virtues of not leaving under a clan boot...

I've read your sig.  It has always seemed sort of nonsensical and inappropriate since the Clans aren't a utopian, pacifistic society and have never really claimed to be.  They're a society where the aggression of the ruling class is focused against others like themselves and, ideally of course, not against the people that keep the lights on and food on the table.  And if the Clans had succeeded in REVIVAL, then of course there would have been a round of destructive conflicts between those same rulers, just like the SW.  The difference in this case, hopefully, would be that they wouldn't fall back to the IS default method of killing the people who keep the lights on and food on the table.

What we're arguing is, that of all those ilkhans, only the warden one is accused of being a "traitor", not the other way around...

Well, he's a traitor because he's a Warden.  That much is obvious.   ::)

Like any Warden or Crusader, I'm more than capable of justifying my hypocrisy and selfishness through ideology.

[Warpimp]

Ulric can be right and still be a traitor. The overall morality of what he did isn't the question. Did he, in doing the right thing, betray his people in favor of those of the Inner Sphere? Did he purposefully do things that lead to greater death on his side of the conflict? I think the Refusal was a good example of how he did that as has been discussed in detail.  And really, he even betrayed his own faction in his Clan. The Wolves-in-Exile have no real future besides fighting Jade Falcon for all eternity. For what? To protect House Steiner, who the Wolves had in the early part of the decade fought and died to take planets from? What if the Clans had won Tukayyid? Presumably a trial of possession would have to be fought to decide which Clan would be ilClan. What would that I have looked like? My opinion is that it would have made the Refusal War look mild by comparison.

[rebs]

[/shrug]  I disagree, and I'm not criticizing Ulric's competence or savvy.  Saddling the CJF and CSJ with hated rival Clans?  Attempting to destroy two Invading Clans, while sending Phelan's Wolves into the IS?  Putting Focht into a position where he had the opportunity to learn how to fight and defeat the Clans?  Ulric knew that if the offensive stalled for any significant length of time then the invasion was doomed as the IS eventually learned to counter Clan tactics and reverse-engineer their tech.  Even worse, a long enough delay introduced the prospect of the Clans being culturally assimilated and ceasing to be Clan.  Ulric struck me as a shrewd enough fellow to realize this and that he apparently wanted these things to happen is why I label him as a traitor.

Ulric's decisions directly led to the death of the Way of the Clans. 

Ulric's actions were every bit as oriented towards furthering the Warden agenda and just as ruthless and treacherous as the actions of Crichell, Showers and many of the Crusader leaders.We're just supposed to see the Wardens as the "good guys" and give them a pass for their treachery and underhandedness while reviling the Crusaders since they're obviously the "bad guys".  The "BoK" Trilogy is told solely from a Warden Clan pov and we don't see the pov of a Crusader Clan until it's all over and done with.

The Crusaders handed the office of warlord to their greatest political rival, one who felt the Clan Way was being perverted by the Crusaders and their cause to turn on those who they should protect.  The SLDF left the IS behind and the Clans were born apart.  They are meant to save humanity from itself, not be the catalyst in its continual slow slide away from the Star League era.  That is how Ulric Kerensky and the Wardens felt.  The Crusader philosophy took a few score years to achieve their political dominance, but they supplanted the school of thought that reigned long before it.  The Crusader cause may have died, but the Clan Way soldiers on despite the damage it has done to itself in the IS and the Home Worlds.

As for the good guy/bad guy thing, the Crusaders lost Tukayyid, but I would not call them bad guys.  I think that idea is suggested more by the subject of this thread.  Ulric was neither, it seems to me, or both, but not simply one.  But it is inevitable that observers will call the guy who makes fifteen years of peace from about three weeks +/- of war a good guy, from an objective standpoint.

The Crusaders stuck to the same plan in the face of the enemy.  It seems they were not as good at war as they thought they were.  And that is the test of the Clans.  Trial by battle.  They could have defeated Ulric's scheme* if they had performed better and defeated the Com Guards in battle.  The Smoke Jaguars were wrecked.  The Jade Falcons fought to a draw because Aidan Pryde took it upon himself to alter Falcon tactical doctrine on the spot at multiple junctures, the Bears were tenacious and I think they won a draw as well.  The Cats, Sharks and Vipers all lost... 

Not all of those Clans are Crusaders, and some would not be crusader at all for very much longer.  Ulric had no hand in any of these failures.  And critical these failures were to the extreme. 


*somewhat, maybe - would any of the rest really have beaten the Wolves to Terra?  Ulric had put the Wolves ahead of the rest before he took the highest office.  The rest could barely catch their breath let alone a break.  They created their own fortunes by underestimating everything about the situation in the IS in gross fashion before the invasion began.   Was Ulric a traitor, or just highly competent by comparison to some of his contemporaries?