Taking the Bull By the Horns: Taurus Rising

[Medron Pryde]

We didn't leave the Concordat.

The Concordat left us...

 }:)

[Sharpnel]

1st Taurian Pride, and the 2nd Taurian Pride.

You filthy traitor.  :P

He's no traitor. At least he follows a true Calderon and not an Usurper

[Deadborder]

You mean the illegitimate leader who illegally seized control of a group of worlds from the legitimately appointed leader of the Taurian Concordat and then succeeded them from the nation without any legal grounds to do so?

[Rainbow 6]

You mean the illegitimate leader who illegally seized control of a group of worlds from the legitimately appointed leader of the Taurian Concordat and then succeeded them from the nation without any legal grounds to do so?

Yeah that'll be the one.

[Liam's Ghost]

I may have left the Concordate but at least I haven't betrayed it's ideals! :D

A true Taurian goes down with his ship. He doesn't sneak out the back after looting the liquor cabinent.  :P

[Medron Pryde]

A True Taurian stands for Taurian ideals, wherever they lead...

 8)

[Archangel]

A true Taurian goes down with his ship. He doesn't sneak out the back after looting the liquor cabinent.  :P

They didn't get at the liquor cabinet.  At best they got at the beer cooler.   :D

[Medron Pryde]

I was flipping through the core books and found something interesting in the production and founding years.

Taurus 2253
Concordat 2335
Griffin BattleMech 2534
Lightning Fighter 2489
Winchester WarShip 2364

Now we know why the Griffin wasn't built until the 2500s...The BattleMech was a late invention.

The Winchester was built a short thirty years after the formation of the Taurian Concordat.  And only 111 years after the colonization of Taurus.  Considering they were colonized by a single fleet founded by a single mega fortune, that is a very impressive time to get full scale WarShip production online.

We don't know how long it took them to build non-FTL spaceships, but we do have a date for AeroSpace Fighters.

2489.  Over a century after they were building WarShips.

Wait.  What?

That doesn't make sense.  Why would they build WarShips before fighters?  This is when they were purposefully acting like a hole in space and not trading with other people after all.

So...is the 2489 time point a typo?  Or is it accurate?

And if it is accurate, what did they build BEFORE they built the Lightning?  Note that the Winchester has fighter bays, so the answer is seemingly not that they used small craft in their place.  And they weren't buying them from anybody at the time.  It is possible the sent forces to STEAL them, but that would endanger the hole in space they were trying to be.  It is also possible that they brought every ASF they would ever use from 2253 to 2489 with them on the initial colonization trip.  But that seems doubtful.

So in my mind that leaves two options.  Date typo.  Or they built something that acted like an ASF and fit in an ASF bay but is not recognizable as an ASF by modern terms.

What do you think?

[Paladin1]

I'd say that the date is correct, given how thorough the fact checkers are now.

That doesn't fix the problem, though it does make it more interesting.  Given the Winchester's focus on speed over armor, I wonder if the TC would have done the same thing with their first fighter?

[Maelwys]

Keep in mind that modern aerospace fighters were a late blossoming technology. The Federated Suns for instance produced their first primitive aerospace fighter (Centurion 1A) in 2430. The earliest "modern" fighter that I can find for the Federated Suns is the Centurion 1D which debuts in 2473. The earliest "modern" aerospace fighter that the MUL seems to have is the TFN-2A Typhoon which debuts in 2461.

So while 2489 seems like a really late introduction date, its not really that far off from what we're seeing with other factions.

As for the Winchester, it was released in a product that was made before all the dates and what not were sorted out, so its entirely possible that it was given fighter bays without anyone ever having given a thought to the date (it certainly wouldn't be the first time in that product such a thing had happened).

Heck, maybe the real mystery is why it took from 2314 (the first primitive aerospace fighter listed in the MUL) until 2461 (the first non-primitive listed in the MUL) for the technology to advance from Primitive to Modern.

[lrose]

The Winchester was built a short thirty years after the formation of the Taurian Concordat.  And only 111 years after the colonization of Taurus.  Considering they were colonized by a single fleet founded by a single mega fortune, that is a very impressive time to get full scale WarShip production online.

That's not completely accurate- the formation of the Concordat in 2335 was more of a reorganization then anything else.  By 2335 the Taurian Homeworlds (as they were then know) included 18 worlds (6 in Flannigans Nebula and 12 other systems) .  Added to this was numerous refugees from the IS who were fleeing further into the periphery (per periphery 1e by 2350 the Concordat had a population of over 1 billion people). So the Concordat is really more then just the Calderon Expedition.

2489.  Over a century after they were building WarShips.

Wait.  What?

That doesn't make sense.  Why would they build WarShips before fighters?  This is when they were purposefully acting like a hole in space and not trading with other people after all.

The FS didn't build aerospace fighters until 2430- long after CC, DC, TH, LC and FWL.  And long after their first warship in 2360.  As to why - see below.

And if it is accurate, what did they build BEFORE they built the Lightning?  Note that the Winchester has fighter bays, so the answer is seemingly not that they used small craft in their place.  And they weren't buying them from anybody at the time.  It is possible the sent forces to STEAL them, but that would endanger the hole in space they were trying to be.  It is also possible that they brought every ASF they would ever use from 2253 to 2489 with them on the initial colonization trip.  But that seems doubtful.

They were probably building dedicated space fighters and planet based fighters.  The "innovation" of the aerospace fighter was a fighter that could operate in both the atmosphere and outerspace.  The biggest use for these types of fighters is during planetary invasions, before you secured a ground base to operate fighters from. Aerospace fighters could launch from a dropship or warship, enter the atmosphere and provide cover for the ground forces.  The one thing the TC was not doing at this time was launching planetary assaults against anyone.  Yes they fought some skirmishes against the FS and the CC but the impression from Periphery 1e is that these actions were mainly naval actions or defensive in nature.  So most likely the TC did not prioritize an aerospace fighter as they saw little need for it, as dedicated space fighters and conventional fighters filled the needs.

[lrose]

Heck, maybe the real mystery is why it took from 2314 (the first primitive aerospace fighter listed in the MUL) until 2461 (the first non-primitive listed in the MUL) for the technology to advance from Primitive to Modern.

Because this is the game of big stompy robots and not space/fighter combat?  Look at warship technology - almost every major technology is introduced by 2430 and the appearance of the Farrgut class BB- the only new tech the TH/SL introduced after that are the LF battery (no later then 2531 and the Avatar class) and Lamellor Ferro Carbide (no later then the Texas class in 2618)

[Intermittent_Coherence]

I thought the current explanation is that they used primitive shuttlecraft type vehicles prior to the invention of the modern Aerospace fighter? The engines for those are at least built similarly to warship engines, if slightly heavier for their size. Mind you this does introduce a few other problems from a design standpoint. Do you then consider the Winchesters at the time to be outfitted with standard shuttlecraft bays(200T apiece) or do you limit the bays to a smaller/lesser tonnage but one more consistent with what would become standard Aerospace fighter bays(150T).

Also I just take those dates with a grain of salt. While I don't contest the Winchester as the first warship, we now know that the Taurian Toro(2481) and Talos(2532) both predate that Griffin 2534 date. That's even assuming they produced the Griffin at all. As I understood it "Star League designs" only started being built in the TC post RW. If the Taurians were already building Griffins(licensed from Earthwerks in Keystone, FWL, another hurdle I won't even go into) at this time, you'd think it would appear in the RAT's for the Reunification War. Checking.. nope.

RW RAT's specify the most common medium mechs most likely to appear in Taurian units of the time. It has the Dervish(ostensibly commissioned by LC but produced in Achernar, TH), the Shadowhawk(Lang Industries, Caph, TH), the Wolverine(Kallon Industries, Nanking, TH) and the Gladiator(the modern 4R version by Merryweather Industries 2490 - TC must have scooped up a huge chunk of the completed first and unfinished second production runs) alongside the native Talos. No Griffins.

Aerospace RAT's for the RW do show the Lightning, though not with the sort of frequency to suggest they were being produced locally (i.e. not more common than other designs). Except for the minor problem of the modern G15 variant not entering production until 2511. But fear not, the original G14 model did enter production with the Capellans in 2469, plenty of time for the Taurians to capture one and reverse-engineer it. I'd wonder why they didn't develop their own homegrown design, particularly since I don't see them negotiating with the Capellans at this point for a license. It's not as if their technology base didn't have what it takes to develop one, the Canopians were afterall able to put the Dragonfly into production, but I'd just be nitpicking at this point.

[sillybrit]

Remember that RATs are nothing more than a tool to provide some faction flavor during unit selection, and in no way should they ever be taken to suggest whether a design is common or not, or whether it is produced locally or imported.

[Intermittent_Coherence]

So despite having been manufacturing the Griffin for some four decades, they're still not likely to appear in a randomly generated Taurian unit of the era.
That makes perfect sense.

[Liam's Ghost]

So despite having been manufacturing the Griffin for some four decades, they're still not likely to appear in a randomly generated Taurian unit of the era.
That makes perfect sense.

The random allocation table for medium mechs in the reunification war book has precisely six slots, and two of those are the native built Talos. There's simply no room for every possible option.

Further, the current version of Tech Manual lists the Toro as the first taurian mech and doesn't mention the Griffin at all. There is no reason to assume that the pre-errata version has any validity.

Either way, the random allocation tables aren't considered an expression of availability because there are limited slots and very frequently a lot of new toys to fill them. I assume in this case that priority goes to the exciting new designs rather than the old ones everybody's already seen.

[Intermittent_Coherence]

No, of course there's no room for every possible option. And of course new toys to play with would get priority, but then again a third of the options on the RAT are classic 3025 designs, one of them unseen.
Any one of those, and maybe even the Gladiator(supposedly unpopular enough that the second production run was uncompleted) could be replaced with the Griffin just for consistency's sake.

But scratch that. Like I said, I don't believe Griffins were introduced into the Taurian industrial base until after the RW anyway.

[jklantern]

So this is kind of a stupid question, but I'm rusty on my Jihad/Post Jihad Periphery info.  How BADLY were the Taurians mauled in all this?  I am very fond of our brave bovine explorers.

[Maelwys]

Quite badly. Pre-Jihad, they had 9 `Mech regiments or so, and by 3085, that number was a under 7 regiments. With the asteroid and the Roughriders throwing around nukes, several factories were completely destroyed, including TTI on Taurus, which was a major producer of `Mechs, fighters and DropShips.

They also lost something like 15 worlds when the FedSuns finally stopped focusing on the Blakists. Half of them were worlds the Taurians had taken, and half were Taurian worlds. That doesn't even count the worlds that went independent. I think maybe they wind up 5+ planets below what they were in 3067.

FM:3085 also points to their economies being in shambles, which is exacerbated by the military ruling junta not really knowing how to handle the civilian sector.

[Deadborder]

Added to this, those regiments are averaging 50% odd strength in 3085. Besides industrial damage, their training infrastructure is also in ruins and their supply chain is barely functional, which is slowing the pace of rebuilding even further. By 3085, they were still producing both intro-tech and retro-tech 'Mechs for their units.

...and it will only get worse. By 3145, the TDF had managed to work its way back up to its 3085 strength

[sillybrit]

According to FM3145, the TDF was down to 3 regiments worth of Mechs by 3127 and the fall of Marshal Urratia, but recovered to 8 by the time of the FM. It's also noteworthy that they've ended up in conflict with the CapCon and MoC, so the old alliance of convenience is definitely over. The CapCon currently hold a number of ex-Taurian worlds and show no sign of peacefully giving them up. The Taurians have also been fighting with the Fronc Reaches and the long-standing problem of pirates, so their list of foes is longer than ever.

The secession of Atreus Prime and its subsequent annexation of neighboring Mithron is what forced Urratia from power and led to the military government ruled by Marshal (now Protector) Doru, which combined with the secession of worlds to the Calderon Protectorate, other defections and the losses to the FedSuns and CapCon, leaves them with just 21 major worlds in 3145, plus the Pleiades. Some of those worlds that had previously been ruled by the Suns still see the Taurians as foreign invaders, even those that had been historically Taurian. On the positive side, there is hope of a reconciliation with the Protectorate.

[snakespinner]

There is a positive in all this, how can things get any worse.
The only way is up.
I hope I haven't jinxed the bulls.

[trboturtle]

So this is kind of a stupid question, but I'm rusty on my Jihad/Post Jihad Periphery info.  How BADLY were the Taurians mauled in all this?  I am very fond of our brave bovine explorers.

According to my research, the Roughriders annihilated three TDF line units, shattered a pirate gang masquerading as a Taurain unit, mauled two TDF-employed mercenary units, suborned a third mercenary unit, and shredded TDF militia units all along the Taurian front. That doesn't include the damage they inflicted on Taurian guerrilla groups and the damage they did to the Taurian military industrial sector.

In short, the Roughriders extracted a large chunk of flesh from the Taurian hide......

Craig

[Archangel]

There is a positive in all this, how can things get any worse.
The only way is up.
I hope I haven't jinxed the bulls.

The Capellans decide to secure their flank by invading?

[Deadborder]

The Capellans decide to secure their flank by invading?

Pretty much. At this point, the CCAF would devour the TDF without a thought

[Archangel]

Pretty much. At this point, the CCAF would devour the TDF without a thought

Well given their luck they would have to think about how few regiments to send (as opposed to how many  :D).

[Intermittent_Coherence]

This is assuming the Davions would just sit by and let the Caps effectively encircle their entire rimward border.

[sillybrit]

*looks at the 3145 map*

The Suns haven't been doing very well at preventing the Capellans from running rampant, and with the Kuritans on the other flank, the cupboard is going to be a little bare.

I doubt that the Capellans would want to invest the forces as they already have to reinforce their grip on the worlds captured in their Chesterton and New Syrtis campaigns, plus deal with the Sirdar/Mandaree salient.

While relatively weak themselves, the Taurians probably have enough forces given the small size of their state that they'd make any invasion too costly, especially given their calm and reasonable nature. Of course, an analogy could be made to the Capellans themselves at the end of the 3rd SW and look what happened to them, but with so few worlds any substantial invasion of the Concordat would effectively kill the faction and I don't see that happening.

[Lysenko]

 

A true Taurian goes down with his ship. He doesn't sneak out the back after looting the liquor cabinent.  :P

I don't think so. A true Taurian loots the liquor cabinet, takes a slug of whiskey, and goes out the front door both guns a-blazing!

[Liam's Ghost]

As long as he uses the rest of the whiskey for molotov cocktails.  ;D