Talk to me about Artillery

[abou]

As the title says -- how do you roll? Tips? Advice?

I've seen talk of using artillery for fast-moving units, but I am assuming that is with "on board" artillery where the flight time is within the same turn.

Primarily I play the 3025-era, but it is all fair game. I haven't truly had the chance to use artillery yet so wanted to get a better grasp on it.

[Dayton3]

As the title says -- how do you roll? Tips? Advice?

I've seen talk of using artillery for fast-moving units, but I am assuming that is with "on board" artillery where the flight time is within the same turn.

Primarily I play the 3025-era, but it is all fair game. I haven't truly had the chance to use artillery yet so wanted to get a better grasp on it.

IIRC,   large artillery is available for use in every era of Battletech.    The only caveat is that due to the required logistical support for movement and resupply,  large artillery units like Long Toms are pretty much confined to major house units.

Though again IIRC there are actually a couple of mercenary artillery units.

Long Toms are also prominent in being deployed on Fortress class dropships.

[AlphaMirage]

I would not use artillery for fast units to much chance I will guess wrong and that the force would overtake my guns. Artillery is best used against things like missile boats or other fire support units (Awesome, etc...) because there is less chance of friendly fire and these units don't typically move much.

The only exception to this is a fast moving arrowIV with guided missiles and at least two TAGgers in play. This also applies to copperheads but preferably offboard as most self-propelled guns are very slow.

Using fighters for fast units is much easier as they likely have little long range firepower that could threaten your plane. Also they can carry Arrow IVs as bombs

[dgorsman]

Definitely not a good thing against fast movers.  Its good to have some security forces in place otherwise even a modest unit can take them out of action.  Security forces also allows artillery to stay put, which is important for dialing in shots.  It doesn't help if they have to keep shifting position to avoid getting shot.

Try to have spotters with LOS to the impact area for correcting missed shots.  Take some time picking the first couple of target hexes, they'll have the opportunity for the most number of shots and most correction.  Sometimes its worth it to toss a couple of extra shots there that don't actually do anything to get it on-target or close-enough for later.

Know where the scatter area is so you know what 'danger close' is when you need it.  You will suffer from friendly-fire at some point, just try to make the best of it.  At least with Mechs - artillery is vicious against infantry, so keep them out of the immediate area.

Each additional tube has a multiplication, not addition, effect i.e. going from two to three is better than a 'plus one' would suggest.  One  tube is kinda-sorta OK if you're shooting at static targets but can take too long to dial in to be tactically useful.  Two firing at the same target covers more area.  Three is pretty much minimum for use against mobile targets and allows splitting two/one against different targets.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Generally, against fast targets the only thing I feel that artillery is good for is dropping FASCAMs in the back field.  Aside from that, go for massed fire every chance you get.  Artillery is great when it comes to keeping your opponent from bunching their forces up: punish them mercilessly if they ever do so.

[Colt Ward]

Answer pending- too long for the time tonight

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-articles/artillery-guide-how-to-kill-em-without-looking-at-em/

Did you want this?

[Simon Landmine]

"If you're going to ask about artillery, you're going to have to ask LOUDER!"
[escapee from the old jokes home]

With regard to dealing with fast-movers, people are probably talking about Artillery Cannon, which have almost the same names, but use different rules. Direct-fire [oops!] Hex-targeting area-effect weapons are handy for dealing with those high movement TMMs.

[Frabby]

I've primarily used artillery as an objective or storyline element in BT games. The presence of offboard artillery makes scout 'Mechs pretty dangerous against slow moving assaults or grounded DropShips.

[AlphaMirage]

"If you're going to ask about artillery, you're going to have to ask LOUDER!"
[escapee from the old jokes home]

With regard to dealing with fast-movers, people are probably talking about Artillery Cannon, which have almost the same names, but use different rules. Direct-fire area-effect weapons are handy for dealing with those high movement TMMs.

True for that although it still bothers me about them, they should just be mortars instead of the mech mortars we have.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Artillery Cannons are indirect fire weapons.  You take a permanent +1 modifier on all attack rolls because of that.

[Colt Ward]

True for that although it still bothers me about them, they should just be mortars instead of the mech mortars we have.

Nah . . . artillery still can fire in direct fire, they actually have a doctrine for it.

You know, I have never seen Paul's article before, and judging by the timeframe it was a period I was not on the boards much IIRC.  It is a great article and covers most things succinctly.  His summation matches up with a lot of current & historical artillery doctrine, but I will throw out the official term- suppression.  Artillery's primary role is suppression of enemy formations.  This includes area denial for BT purposes, degrading the combat power of a enemy force, and controlling the initiative.

To put my comments in context, most of my experience with artillery comes from MegaMek.  Most of that comes from the MM campaign servers (BV = size of map) using mixed companies or larger; or a campaign using big maps (96x96).  I will not address the use against the Bot for the simple reason half of what artillery allows you to do is wasted on the bot.  What might apply the most is the MM server use- for the simple reason was most of that was blind drops by BV matching and was pretty cutthroat.  All of it was onboard artillery . . . I dislike offboard except for strategic campaign play- then it is 'which fight has call on the firebase?'

Artillery use in BT really is a artform compared to the math formula it is IRL.  I knew someone who could use the unguided rounds to herd an enemy advance into his pre-planned location.  I learned a couple of tricks from him, but that was one of the most masterful uses of artillery I have ever seen or heard of and a lesson in 'the easy way is mined.'

I will highlight what I think is most important in what Paul said-

Mass- its the name of the IRL principle, which means you put as many guns into the fight as possible.  Artillery and Battle Armor are where I always hear the complaint 'I used one of those once, it did nothing but suck & die.'  It tells me two things immediately- you did not use enough and you did not use it right.  Even in small games, I think you need to have 2 or more 'tubes' which gets tricky with BV limitations . . . but Field Guns make this easier, I fielded 3 2g/8 Thumpers in a 5k IRL force and while I would have preferred Snipers the BV was quite small compared to other Artillery units.  I do not think I have fielded more than 6 in a reinforced battalion per side sized game, but that was b/c of the server rules, once you get to that level you are ensuring a hit is going to be pretty close to your target area.

Suppression-  IMO this gets a bit into the psychological area . . . and I used it against my opponents.  On those servers a half dozen of us were known to frequently use artillery, and they played with Blind Drops and Double Blind.  Blind drops would tell you just the number of units you were facing- it could be mechs, armor, BA, infantry or artillery but it was always a question . . . and if you used artillery, you prayed for a Lyran Wall of Steel or some turret tech player.  One of the most satisfying uses of artillery I ever had was against someone whose tactics revolved around parking a pair of Dire Wolf As in woods on a hill and just waiting for you to walk towards him to die.  I want to say it was 20k per side, and I had a Sniper and . . . dual A4 carrier?  Parked my artillery and most of my mechs & armor on the other side of a hill from him . . . then started lobbing rounds since it was not a auto-hit location.  When he eventually decided to come after me, his pair of Dire Wolves were pretty beat up . . . and I caught one of his lead unit with Homing A4 with a 2 turn salvo at once- my launcher was less than 17 hexes from his Mad Dog.  After being TAG'd the 2 turn flight A4 hit . . . his head, second homing A4 with the 1 turn flight hit is CT.  He retreated after that . . . and whenever I played him again, he never set up thinking I had to walk towards him.  He always assumed artillery and after the painful lesson kept mobile.

Other players would avoid the obvious firing points- heavy woods behind partial terrain, especially if it was 2 or 3 hexes together.  So artillery use- especially with multiple tubes- will cause players to forgo obvious covered firing points.  You will also force them to spread out, instead of having the Banshee, Atlas, Thunderhawk, and Devastator advancing shoulder to shoulder with 7 gauss rifles, ERLLs, ERPPCs and a LRM rack all having nearly the same TH while creating a super AC/20-style bubble, now they have to spread out.  So 2-3 hexes between the four powerful units which just might also place trees in the way, usually they will be in different range bands, and in some cases will even be out of arc . . . all of which makes engaging those 4 mechs spread out easier than if they were clumped together.

You can also cause your enemy to split their forces.  Instead of the flanker trying to get behind your battle line, it goes scooting off to find or deal with your artillery.  Tabletop I sent my troop carrier VTOL off to mess with my opponent's field gun artillery, hoping to hit enough troopers to knock the gun out (suppress!) of action.  But I have also seen (or forced) light or med Clan mechs to go hunting behind hills for artillery vehicles- which due to BV costs, is also a win.  My 600-700 BV artillery vehicle made you send 1100 BV of Clan lightmech searching all while throwing damage at your assaults & 4/6 heavies- take that Night Gyr E!

[Simon Landmine]

Artillery Cannons are indirect fire weapons.  You take a permanent +1 modifier on all attack rolls because of that.

Have I missed an errata again? According to TacOps:AUE, p.97, "Artillery Cannon attacks may be resolved normally or using the rules for indirect LRM fire", so you can direct-fire them, or lob them over hills, as desired. They target the hex, but they don't get the +4 bonus for the hex being immobile.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I'm just going off the last version of the rules I'm familiar with.  Which could easily be out of date.

[Cannonshop]

As the title says -- how do you roll? Tips? Advice?

I've seen talk of using artillery for fast-moving units, but I am assuming that is with "on board" artillery where the flight time is within the same turn.

Primarily I play the 3025-era, but it is all fair game. I haven't truly had the chance to use artillery yet so wanted to get a better grasp on it.

First off: Scatter means Artillery is the only system in the game that has built-in friendly-fire rules.  meaning you can dust your own guys on a bad roll, which sets your OWN 'area of denial' where you need to not have your units when it hits.

Second is that a single artillery gun is worse than useless-because scatter, because it's hard to hit anything with it, and because of the size of the dinner plate you're dropping with the bigger versions (Long Tom, Arrow IV standard mode, sniper to an extent) a single gun isn't a force multiplier for your side, it's a force divider-you're more likely to hit your own guys, than the enemy when using a single tube.  This is true whether you're using a single tube on-map, or off-map.

To use artillery effectively, you need to keep in mind the widest scatter range of your shot, and stay away from that range...at least, with your infantry, light vehicles, or anything with thin armor or exposed criticals.

'good enough' is three to six tubes.  That's what you're going to need to be actively more hazardous to your opponent, than yourself, and big maps.  Forget the single-mapsheet duelling map, or even the double-sheet layouts, you need a map with size and scale, six mapsheets or more if possible-so you can actually deny terrain and influence the battle with your artillery, as opposed to having a random chance to walk 20 point bombs on your own guys.

Tactics for dummies *(like me!)

1. Don't bring artillery in singles.  you need a battery to be useful, so if you can't bring a battery, bring something else.  Airstrikes are nice.
2.Don't try to use artillery in a phonebooth fight, you'll lose more often than you will without it.
3. Artillery is best used to influence the other side's movement choices, damage them before the merge, and create denial zones.  A 'denial zone' is an area that is taking so much fire, that it will chew up their lighter units and hamper their heavier units.  (this goes back to 1 and 2).  to do this, requires planning your shots so that they fall in a general area in a rough pattern, and keep it falling.  (means: bring lots of ammo, you're going to burn through it.)  Typically, I use arty batteries to close off routes of approach or channel the enemy.  This means putting down several rounds each turn into a given segment of the map that my guys aren't in.
4. Avoid going into your own battered zone.  Yes, that crippled locust is a tempting target, he's also where you're dropping shell.  do not send your infantry, tanks, or other light 'mechs in to finish him off.  The scatter diagram is too random and too wide to do that without greasing your own guys.

Skirtaround the beaten zone, don't try to run through it, you'll fail.

5. violate (4) on offense...but shift your targets at the speed you're advancing, away from you, and toward him.  In this case, you're applying something akin to a "curtain battery"-you're dropping arty rounds just ahead of your line of advance, which is another reason you don't want to overrun your own artillery shells, it does bad things to your forces, instead of your opponents.

If you're going to get close, try to make sure that if it DOES fall back toward you, you're only taking the splash and not the full.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

At least artillery no longer risks scattering all the way to behind the unit that fired it anymore.

[AlphaMirage]

Another thing that this brings up is, what rules are you using for said artillery. Battlemech Manual combat support rules are much nicer (for limited shots of course) to use than an actual artillery vehicle. That does however not really change what it is best used against which is principally large concentrations of enemies, or that guy in heavy woods at long range lobbing tons of firepower. The damage there is more psychological than anything else however, better utilized on the player of said unit than the unit itself.

[Colt Ward]

First off: Scatter means Artillery is the only system in the game that has built-in friendly-fire rules.  meaning you can dust your own guys on a bad roll, which sets your OWN 'area of denial' where you need to not have your units when it hits.

Second is that a single artillery gun is worse than useless-because scatter, because it's hard to hit anything with it, and because of the size of the dinner plate you're dropping with the bigger versions (Long Tom, Arrow IV standard mode, sniper to an extent) a single gun isn't a force multiplier for your side, it's a force divider-you're more likely to hit your own guys, than the enemy when using a single tube.  This is true whether you're using a single tube on-map, or off-map.

To use artillery effectively, you need to keep in mind the widest scatter range of your shot, and stay away from that range...at least, with your infantry, light vehicles, or anything with thin armor or exposed criticals.

'good enough' is three to six tubes.  That's what you're going to need to be actively more hazardous to your opponent, than yourself, and big maps.  Forget the single-mapsheet duelling map, or even the double-sheet layouts, you need a map with size and scale, six mapsheets or more if possible-so you can actually deny terrain and influence the battle with your artillery, as opposed to having a random chance to walk 20 point bombs on your own guys.

You keep going back to the old scatter rules- it is no longer like that in the game. 

Standard gunnery of 4 plus 7 for IDF artillery means an 11 to hit . . . means at worst it is 9 hexes of scatter on the direct path- and you have to roll the difficult 2.  With 9 hexes of scatter you also end up with 6 big 'slices' of that scatter you are perfectly safe in that slice 3 hexes from your target provided it is not a Long Tom which is 4 hexes from the target.  Long Toms also leave correspondingly smaller 'safe' zones.

Now that is also a single gun firing on a target . . .

When you start doing a fire plan for multiple guns on the same target zone . . . well, it is why I wish commo gear could give you FDC capabilities- besides decreasing the rolls.  To sum it up-

Fire Plans (will add pictures later)

Tight- Splash overlaps, so your target hexes are at most 1 hex between them.  While it can work with 2, ideally you want at least 3 for this or any other fire plan since the best coverage gives you a chance to bracket the target and nullify the 'safe' zones for a single target point's scatter.  Note, this is for a group of enemies like the Lyran Wall of Steel I mentioned earlier.  A tightly bunched group of enemy units begs for splash damage, and firing into a tight formation will make scatter not matter as much.

Spread-  Splash damage hexes touch each other, so 2 hexes between target hexes unless Long Tom.  If the target area does not have the units as close together.



Gunnery & Other Skills
Little note here . . . for my artillery Field Gun platoons, I did increase the gunnery skills (especially if tube- lot cheaper to practice) but you should also give them a 7 or IIRC 8 for their Anti-Mech skills.  For one thing, I am not sure they are even capable of making anti-mech attacks due to their movement type (or at least for some of them).  For vehicular units, it is one of the very few times in BT I do not care about the 2 skill separation.  SP Artillery does not spend the time on precision driving for the same purposes as armor . . . so I would rather RP it a bit and conserve the BV for a 2/5 or 3/6 artillery vehicle.

[Dapper Apples]

TW pg 40 says conventional infantry start with 8 anti-mech skill, and also says mechanized infantry can't make anti-mech attacks (but I guess still have the skill?)

[Colt Ward]

Thought it was something like that- which is why they get that skill level, otherwise it is really green 7.  BUT . . . some folks follow with the 'two skill separations' rule, though I also nix it on BA that cannot make anti-mech attacks like quads.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

So, how would the Arrow IV Demolisher rate as a good artillery vehicle.  Two A4, 35 rounds (7 tons) between them.  The Schiltron has two A4 and an extra ton of ammo, but much more expensive.

[Colt Ward]

Schil is also more vulnerable being wheeled . . . and that C3i is too big a target IMO.

Multiple tons of ammo depends on what you have in play.  It is why I love the Marksmen, Ballista and a few others b/c I get 10 shots per ton and with multiple tons can mix it up smoke, copperhead, HE or cluster.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Obviously with the Arrow IV you want plenty of homing rounds, but it's nice to bring a couple tons of standard missile for big fun splash damage if the situation presents itself.  And a ton or two of the different specialty rounds, depending on the battlefield.

[Sartris]

but it's nice to bring a couple tons of standard missile for big fun splash damage if the situation presents itself.  And a ton or two of the different specialty rounds, depending on the battlefield.

also handy if your TAG units get taken out

[Col Toda]

On board Arrow IV rules . If urban I like Shiltron primes if anywhere else O-Bakemono's  . 6 launchers minimum.  My lance of O Bakemonos have 3 mechs with the standard 2 Arrow  IV launchers each and a custom one with 2 Mech Mortar 8s . Have other units with LRM launchers so have some Homing ammo for the Arrow IVs and some semi guided for Mech mortar and LRM. TAG phase happens just after movement phase should you hit fire the guided ammo . If it misses fire air burst mech mortar on target hex or Arrow IV standard ammo to where scatter will be most effective normally the hex behind one of the lead units .

[dgorsman]

One point in the Schiltron's favor is the C3 Master allows monitoring of remote sensors (not in MegaMek yet though).  Those are pretty handing for keeping an eye on things downrange without getting spotters in harms way.  And the built-in TAG in case someone gets too close.

The wheeled motive system is a downside when on the attack.  When using it to defend a fixed site such as a city, fortress, or factory site, much less of an issue.  And if they make it into the built up area its an omni-swap away from an LRM, SRM, or MRM carrier for fun and surprises.

[Colt Ward]

The wheeled motive system is a downside when on the attack.  When using it to defend a fixed site such as a city, fortress, or factory site, much less of an issue.  And if they make it into the built up area its an omni-swap away from an LRM, SRM, or MRM carrier for fun and surprises.

The artillery or LRM versions are the only ones that make sense for a C3 Master machine.  The C3M need to defend themselves but their job is command and control- not going pew pew or dakkkkkka.  Wish we had gotten a plain Omni tank with C3 slave pod versions.  How many UAC/2 or AC/2s could you have fit in a turret with LRMs facing front when tied into a network through a C3 slave?

[Col Toda]

I agree for the most part on the Shiltron Arrow IV or LRM mainly  . Though I did have fun in a city game with 2 standard Wights 1 Wight varient withe a Snub Nosed PPC and jump jets and a Shiltron with 2 RAC /5 s  in a network used remote sensors in the surronding block to know roughly where an enemy is  have the mech jump 6 hexes away fire 2 heavy PPCs and a Snub Nosed PPC to make holed and 2 RAC/5s and medium lasers to exploit those holes .

Remote Sensors are not great spotters but they do alert you so you can postion better spotters . A remote sensor network is only a good enough spotter should a dropship land in your perimeter network . You target the Center hex and if you miss by as much as 4 hexes you might still be doing damage .

Sinking some resources having a network 95 hexes a side is easy . Having one 16 KM / side is hard but just on the sane side of feasible.  More becomes stupid labor intensive mess while in theory possible would not be done except perhaps on a  Capitol City of a Major Affiliation  16 KM is a good number because a battry of Long Toms have a Maximum  Range of 15.3 KM . So their is the potential the first artillery barrage is in the air before the Dropship bay doors open one to 3 vollys might hit before a big dropship fully unloads and scatter might hurt unloading units .

Arrow IV  is the best on board weapon . Long Tom with HE or Copperheads is the best off board . Off board Arrow IV  with illumination  rounds is excellent  . In a night fight having your 5  pre plotted hexes as a band of light so your side does not eat night penalties but theirs does is very good

[Crow]

Does anyone use PBI with Artillery tubes? Are they worth using?

[Col Toda]

Presuming PBI stands for Poor Bloody Infantry  for spotting or manning purposes.  Frequently before 3058 and battle armor.  To nearly never after . Manning a Long Tom requires 30 troops the max size platoon size any loss of manpower you lose  function quickly. A squad of stealth battle armor can hide in a building  with a good  vantage point that will not be .