Question on declaring targets

[Baradiel]

Ok, so the way I am reading the rules, you go element by element declaring targets, then go back and roll to hit.  So, with that in mind does it work like this-

"Ok, unit one.  The first element is shooting at your first element in that unit there, my second element is shooting at the third element in your other unit over there..."  ?

This seems really, REALLY clunky.  Am I interpreting the combat rules correctly?

[Peter Smith]

You are, and there's a reason for this approach.

In BattleTech combat happens at the same time. Targets get declared, then after everything is declared you move on to resolving. Once you've finished declaring targets you are locked into that list. If multiple units are shooting at a single target and the first unit destroys it, the rest of the units who declared against that target have to stick with their original declaration.

Yes, this means those follow-up units just wasted their shots, including heat build-up and ammo consumption. For the sake of speed every group I've played with skips the actual rolling unless there is something specific to account for (UACs and RACs jamming, scatter, miss shot optional rule).

This mechanic was carried over into BattleForce as it is part of the BattleTech core.

[guardiandashi]

technically yes.... but I am not sure how many groups actually do


with that in mind it is an attempt to avoid meta gaming IE you plan to concentrate your entire lances firepower on bobs warhammer but the second mech firing kills it now if you had predeclared the rest of your lance will keep firing at the corpse of the 'hammer if you declared as you go the other 2 can switch to a different target

[nckestrel]

Yes, and it also means you have to declare overheat before resolving any attacks (yours or your opponents).
1) you don't know if you're going to be destroyed and therefore might as well over heat.  you can plan for this though.  if you have one that you might one to overheat because of too much incoming fire, save it for last to see how much he shoots at it, then decide how likely he is to die and whether it is worth it to overheat. 
2) you don't know if your other guys are going to leave you with just 1 more point of damage needed to finish it off.. though you can plan for this possibility, you don't know for sure.  good old probability.  for example.  target has 5 armor and 3 structure.  you have units doing 5 and 2, with the 2 having an OV1.  you can't resolve the 5 to see if it hits before deciding if the 2 will overheat.   


Also, not involving OV, you can't wait to see which of your guys hit before doing the next.  if there are two targets with 5/3 and you have two 5 damages and one 3 damage, you can't wait to see which/if the 5s hit before assigning the 3. 

[Baradiel]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I totally get the logic behind the rule.  Marine LCcpls Jones, Ramirez, and Smith all see a Taliban dude with an RPG and each have clear shots, they are all going to fire at the same time.  If Jones gets the shot off first, and kills the Taliban fighter, Ramirez and Smith still most likely wind up shooting to air or a dead body, and their rounds are wasted.  Ramirez and Smith don't get to rewind time and shoot at another target.

That being said, this is very clunky, and with so many elements to keep track of, it seems really tough to keep track of.

[Peter Smith]

That being said, this is very clunky, and with so many elements to keep track of, it seems really tough to keep track of.

There are many ways to handle this. I'm going to create a generic cheat sheet for the game I'm playing in tomorrow. I also use the "Finger of Death" approach. Folks also use strips of paper to indicate their targets. I've seen popsicle sticks used as well. That being said it does get easier with experience.

[Adrian Gideon]

Are you playing straight BattleForce, or with the optional rule of stripping units into their component elements?

[nckestrel]

Actually, I did forget one big difference in BattleForce.  Each side resolves the entire combat phase before the next side.  In BF, if you win initiative, you do in fact know if your units are going to be destroyed before you declare your attacks.  But each side still declares all of its attacks before resolving their attacks.

[Baradiel]

Adrian, not sure yet.

Thanks for the info folks.  I was thinking of doing laminted sheets that I could just rewrite on with dry erase pens.  Figure leave some room at the side of each element so you can write down what their target is.

[Medron Pryde]

In general, with my players we usually run a little lose on the "declaring targets" stuff.

We will generally say something like "Yeah I'm concentrating fire on that bad boy with everything that can shoot it, and for the rest I'm shooting that guy."

This generally works since we trust each other not to go "ooh...he died...alpha strike baby!" and stuff like that.

On the few times I've been stuck playing with rules lawyers (people who are NOT invited back for another game) it does come to keeping track of every single weapon on every single 'Mech for every single turn.  And of course looking at all the ways they can twist the rules to their advantage and stuff like that.  With people like that, I have to keep Total War (or Strat Ops) permanently open to deal with their constant challenges.  AccountingTech and RulesTech as I like to call it.

The rules as noted here are utterly fair and designed to hold up under constant rules lawyering.  As such, they can sometimes be a little...tedious.  But there are many ways as noted above to streamline them.  :)

[Weirdo]

My group plays pretty loose with declaration, same as Medron. What helps is writing down the target and to-hit numbers on each datasheet. Basically, as soon as movement is completed, everybody spends a minute or two calculating the shots, and writing down each unit's targets and to-hit numbers. When everyone's done, we declare things much as he described, and then resolve the fire in no particular order. Very informal and friendly, reasonably quick, and as long as nobody's a jerk about things, it works for us.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  My game club has been playing a lot more BattleForce scenarios due to a massive multi-regimental/multi-galaxy exercise in an ongoing campaign.
  Because it is a campaign, every point of damage and every casualty may have an effect on subsequent actions so declaring targets is necessary.

The GM is rather lenient: If a 'Mech is dropped after a couple of shots, the attacker has the option of ceasing to roll hits but if you aren't taking the field, you might want to keep placing shots into the target and leave the opponent with a very badly shot up 'Mech.

If you have ever played MegaMek and poured some overkill into a target so that even after the target drops the subsequent hits collapse the CT or find that last ammo bin, the game will show you what's left after the battle.

  We really don't find it so clunky at our club when it allows huge battles.