What would you want in a dedicated CV?

[Scrollreader]

Assume that you happen to be in a position to influence the design of a new Squadron sized dropship to replace an aging and underperforming fleet of leopard CVs, Auroras, and other scattershot solutions for fighter deployment.  What would your preferences be?  Aerodyne or Spheroid?  Is the only thing that matters Cargo and Quarters for sustainable ops?  Do you want a Subcap weapon for orbital removal of fixed air defense?  Should the dropship be able to contribute to the ASF battles via armor or weapons, or should it be primarily be a drop collar and hangar with only a reasonable self defense option or two? 

[AlphaMirage]

I think the Carrier dropship is actually probably the peak design, I would take that and 60% it for 500 tons cargo and room for half the squadron of tech crew (or upgrade the Aircraft bays to ARTS).

Where I think it fails and this is a totally clan thing is that it is meant to serve as a warship escort and anti-fighter craft in addition to carrying its fighters. I don't think that is a smart move as it means the carrier could become disabled or destroyed and render itself unable to serve its role as a carrier or be useful in search and rescue operations post-mission.

For extra capability I'd only pick one of the two options depending on how big you wanted it to be
Three Sub-Cap missiles in the nose or satellite imagers to aid ground targeting

[Kerfuffin(925)]

The Aesir/Vanir is the platonic ideal. Aside from being spheroid maybe.

[AlphaMirage]

The thing with the Aesir is that I would use that as a warship escort but not for squadron deployment. It's more like the Titan or Vengeance than a Leopard

[Scrollreader]

Absolutely.   5ktons is probably the top end for a leopard cv replacement, and even that is awfully close to just using a Gorgon instead, unless you can sell a new or vastly improved mission capability.

[Frabby]

In a vacuum, such a ship should be small to medium sized, with above average speed, a modicum of armor, point defense, and most importantly ample supplies of fuel and consumables. Essentially, a bigger relative of the Leopard CV with a thousand tons of fuel.
Leave the fighting to its fighters and make sure it can outrun anything threatening the mothership.

[Daryk]

A replacement for Leopard CVs?  Well...

1) CHEAP
2) At least as fast as the slowest fighters it has to carry.
3) LOTS of fuel.
4) Enough room for the AsTechs to make the full tech teams necessary to support the Squadron.
5) At least one White Shark launcher, with enough of a magazine to carry both standard and nuclear ordnance.
6) Enough Point Defense weapons to resist a White Shark salvo.
7) Enough AAA weapons to survive an attack by a squadron.
8) Enough armor to survive an attack by a squadron.

[Cannonshop]

What do you NEED?

Okay, hear me out.

what does a Squadron of ASF operating from a Carrier need?

We're talking fuel, spares, maintenance and deck crew (and spaces), plus carrier crew, plus detection range and communications to coordinate over long distances, plus support for the fighters to extend their range and operating radius, because if the enemy can get in striking range of your carrier, you've done something horribly wrong.

The primary WEAPON of a CV, is its air wing.  That is the whole and sole purpose of the carrier, everything else is tertiary, or better handled by another dropship.

This isn't to say that bad things don't happen, and it's good to have point defenses for leakers who get through, but if you're trying to use a carrier as a combat asset of its own, you've already lost the thread (and will likely lose the conflict.)

YOur main angles should be, then:

1. Adequate support for your embarked air-wing(s).  This is fuel, food, spare parts, bunk space and so on-your carrier is an airbase, equip it as such.

2. Adequate support for your carrier's crew-this means fuel, spare parts, and bunk space, to keep the ship running and allow you to support your embarked air wing.  (does no good to have a carrier if you can't keep the decks pressurized or feed them.)

3. Adequate detection range and mobility to avoid being isolated and engaged by enemy forces.  Ideally in the dreaded defensive situation, the enemy should be asking "Where did all these fighters come from??" not "Why haven't you hit their carrier with our naval PPCs yet?"

4. Adequate to minimal protection from enemy fire-if you're positioning your carriers close enough to the action that they're taking fire, you did it wrong, but...incidents happen.  Weapons should be focused on point defenses only-your striking power is the Air Wing, not your deck guns. Armor should be cheap, minimal stuff that doesn't cost a lot to replace, but isn't thick enough to encourage members of the brotherhood of the Randy Sheep to blunder into the thick of enemy fire seeking glory.

That, after all, is why you have the air wing-their job is to blunder into the thick of fire, your job is to fix the damage to them, refuel them, rearm them, and send them out to do it again.

5. Common parts.  The Carrier's own systems (Propulsion, mainly) should be easy to source, maintain and replace using common components found on commercial or large-batch military production models that are also easier to replace than something custom that can be lost with the destruction of a single factory.  Avoid imported components whenever and wherever possible-other nations can o this thing called 'embargoes' which can cripple your naval programs if you don't have the ability to ignore them.

[Daryk]

Good points all!  :thumbsup:

[Tyler Jorgensson]

An Aesir/Vanir merged with a Titan Monitor merged with the looks of a Tiamat or Conquistador. At least for a Star or more of Aerofighters. Anything smaller would be based on Dropships in system or on planet. I wouldn’t want to be carrying Leopards when I could be carrying a Vengeance class instead.

[AlphaMirage]

Staffing a Vengeance is a difficult ask though and likely overkill for the great houses. Additionally you could have one guarding a jump point so it makes sense to use a smaller vessel for patrolling.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Yeah I’m at work so I don’t have time to work out what I’d really want for a smallish fighter carrier. A large one is easy to imagine.

[Jellico]

Where I think it fails and this is a totally clan thing is that it is meant to serve as a warship escort and anti-fighter craft in addition to carrying its fighters. I don't think that is a smart move as it means the carrier could become disabled or destroyed and render itself unable to serve its role as a carrier or be useful in search and rescue operations post-mission.

Having spent too long in SLDF Titans trying to justify them against Vengeances, the magic acronym is ECM.

You fly your DropShip in at the center of your formation and never stop Evading. Even at short range an enemy ASF needs to overcome +4 to hit you and the DropShip is going to get acceptable to-hits. You won't be hitting anything at long range, but that isn’t the game you are playing.

The big bonus is your ASF are flying in your ECM bubble which is a pain for the hostile. Squadron combat is a numbers game and even a small 10% buff adds up quickly. Because it is capital ECM you even get protection from capital missiles.

This works well with assault DropShips as well as hybrid CVs like Leopards and Titans. For an Aesir the plan is to stand back and throw missiles while the NL45s provide ECM support.

[Alan Grant]

Jellico's point is VERY important. In a wide open space battlefield, there is no cover except that you bring with you. That's basically what ECM represents.

I don't always do that with the ASF carrier itself. I find it's a great use for some other small dropship that I regard as useful but expendable. For the Inner Sphere the Avenger for example is really good at serving in this role. Especially in the later eras where it's too small to be an effective combat dropship in its own right against anything but another small combat dropship. But turn it into a combat support platform for an ASF squadron and you have some magic and greater utility for it.

But push come to shove, I would use the carrier itself for the role. Especially if the opposition is bigger, tougher, has a lot of capital or sub cap missiles etc. Where the odds for the ASF squadron aren't too great and they really need to win or it's heck for all my forces because we lose space superiority.

As far as the CV build.

The thing that struck me when I contemplated this question, is that I'd want 1-2 small craft bays in addition to the 6 ASF bays.

They might be used for spare ASF airframes if you know you are going into a long campaign without resupply. But they can also operate in the usual shuttle roles in addition to pilot search and rescue. Or transporting small numbers of troops for boarding operations. Or ECM support. Or small craft specializing in patrol duties for long term system patrol deployment. What they offer is some open architecture flexibility and the ability to round out the force with a couple specialized small craft platforms based on the mission.

There are some roles that small craft are good at but you rarely see used because so few dropships have the bays. Including small craft bays is one of the things the Vengeance gets right that I really wish other carriers like the Gorgon had picked up on.

[AlphaMirage]

I suppose that works Jellico. I always put my forward ECM on the Small Craft so it serves as basically a Growler with the extra bonus of firing AMS multiple times per turn so I don't sweat capital missiles as much, against fighters its interceptors I'm worried more about as you should be evading until you are in short/medium range anyhow.
 
For dropships particularly assault types absolutely all of them use ECM in my doctrine its such a cheap bonus it would be foolish not to.

[Jellico]

Around TRO3057 FASA forgot small craft existed so didn't put Small Craft Bays in a lot of places where they were needed, like Titans. You can't rely on them being there.

[Scrollreader]

I feel like we're Feature bloating back into a larger Carrier Vessel, here.   :P

Even assuming the crew live on the small craft (they have Quarters, after all), that's 200 tons for the Bay, 35 tons (Steerage) for the tech team, and further tonnage for actual marines.  That's a lot to ask for a small to medium ASF carrier.

I suppose to some degree it depends on what purpose you have for your dropships.  While somewhat "with the DropShips you have, not the ones you want", in general I would suspect major engagements to be the places for something like an Aesir or a Vengeance, due to collar count and concentration of forces.  What is the purpose of a smaller CV?  Garrison reinforcement?  Pirate Hunting?   Integrated air support for ground pounders?  Jumpship and Dropship protection?

[Maingunnery]

For a smaller CV I would likely use them for system patrols or orbital guards of minor systems.
And even in those cases I would want to to have a SC bay so that they could perform custom checks without risking the DS.

[AlphaMirage]

Yeah I think a hypothetical small CV should have a fighter and small craft option. 6 fighters take up 900 tons and 4 small craft are 800 so if we use my 500 tons of cargo the small craft version will have an extra 100 tons for specialist equipment or to embark marines.

Like Maingunnery said small craft are very useful for police and customs work. I would even say if you had a small craft carrier and 2 fighter carriers that would be a stout planetary defense that could definitely contest any enemy incursions with normal transports like the Overlord.

[Scrollreader]

Oh, a variant with Small Craft capabilities is absolutely a good idea.  Especially for a restive or recently conquered planet.  Customs checks are far more likely to be ad hoc in such a situation,  and the ability to drop some BA on a problem is great.  But trying to add that capability to a base CV is going to add a lot of extra cruft to what is supposed to be a leopard replacement.   

... In all honesty, that might be a good refit option for those old Leopard CVs.  Replace all six ASF bays with a couple small craft and some BA Bays/Quarters.  Should leave enough room for supplies for a nice long operational time. 

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Totally forgot in my hypothetical large carrier about small craft bays: at least a couple Battle Taxis and a couple AMS/ECM platforms like the Wurger.

Got some time tonight so I’ll throw together an idea and post it in the fan made section.

[Cannonshop]

Jellico's point is VERY important. In a wide open space battlefield, there is no cover except that you bring with you. That's basically what ECM represents.

I don't always do that with the ASF carrier itself. I find it's a great use for some other small dropship that I regard as useful but expendable. For the Inner Sphere the Avenger for example is really good at serving in this role. Especially in the later eras where it's too small to be an effective combat dropship in its own right against anything but another small combat dropship. But turn it into a combat support platform for an ASF squadron and you have some magic and greater utility for it.

But push come to shove, I would use the carrier itself for the role. Especially if the opposition is bigger, tougher, has a lot of capital or sub cap missiles etc. Where the odds for the ASF squadron aren't too great and they really need to win or it's heck for all my forces because we lose space superiority.

As far as the CV build.

The thing that struck me when I contemplated this question, is that I'd want 1-2 small craft bays in addition to the 6 ASF bays.

They might be used for spare ASF airframes if you know you are going into a long campaign without resupply. But they can also operate in the usual shuttle roles in addition to pilot search and rescue. Or transporting small numbers of troops for boarding operations. Or ECM support. Or small craft specializing in patrol duties for long term system patrol deployment. What they offer is some open architecture flexibility and the ability to round out the force with a couple specialized small craft platforms based on the mission.

There are some roles that small craft are good at but you rarely see used because so few dropships have the bays. Including small craft bays is one of the things the Vengeance gets right that I really wish other carriers like the Gorgon had picked up on.

I look at it differently.  If you're in a position where you're trying to use your Carrier as a strike asset, you've already lost on the strategic battle, because you let your carrier get into that situation instead of eating the tactical L and pulling it out, you're likely to eat the Tactical loss AND lose on the strategic level.

We have actual Combat Dropships that can go charge in and scrimmage with enemy fleet assets, Carriers are effectively the airbase for a fighter wing, only it can sink/be truly blown up with not even a cratered runway, losing all the fuel, spare parts, ammunition and maintenance crew for your fighters.
 
You know, those manned missiles with guns of their own?

Yah, that stuff, all the stuff you need to move forward with operations AFTER the set-piece battle, like your mechanics (which are not something falling off an assembly line at Defiance, Lockheed, or Boeing in job lots, or able to be stored in underground warehouses until needed in huge stockpiles the way, say, missile ammunition, autocannon rounds, spare lasers etc. can be.)

If you're taking your carrier into a furball, you're throwing away your ability to repair after the fight, you're throwing away your ability to refuel after a fight, you're throwing away your ability to rearm after a fight, and you're losing experience base to handle and integrate replacements after losses.

It's a situation where you can possibly win the tactical set-piece and be so thoroughly savaged you lose the next few confrontations even as they're getting smaller, because you've lost the infrastructure that keeps your fighter wings fighting to win (or even, lose) a single engagement.

If you're trying to fly your carrier as a strike ship, instead of using strike ships, and you're not retreating with it when you run out of strike ships, you've already lost the war-even if you win this engagement.

[Cannonshop]

Let me expand on that point I tried to make here;

When I write (*or play) a naval engagement, one of the first things I target are the other guy's fighter carriers.  They're strategic objective assets that can degrade an enemy's ability to fight the next ten fights.  Denying enemy fighters a place to land, refuel, rearm and repair while protecting my own assets that do the same allows me greater flexibility in operations, and greater chance of local superiority both in the present battle, and in the next one.

Notably, this is a conservative (meaning 'conserving assets') strategy.  If my ships nail his Vengeance, he's got to abandon airframes even if he wins-he can't board them all on the rest of his ships and keep unit consistency.  If I damage his hangar decks on his other ships in the same fight, he's got to abandon assets even if he wins the current engagement.

Likewise, I will pull back carriers to keep them outside of easy weapons range whenever possible, for the same reason-I can recall fighters, rearm them, refuel them, repair them, rest the pilots and move to another position to engage, and potentially dictate the opposition's movements because as long as I have those assets working, I can threaten whatever operations he's in the system to do.

This is part of maintaining a "Fleet In Being", also known as "Deny the enemy the decisive battle he desires" in order to force him to expend time, fuel, air, food, water, and ammunition trying to deal with the presence of a hostile fleet in being.

Every fighter an enemy has to expend chasing my carrier, is a fighter not securing air-superiority over my planet, a fighter not delivering bombs, not escorting dropships...every Dropship he has to devote to the chase is not providing cover for his landing forces, not acting as a command post, not acting as a supply point, not escorting his transport droppers, and so on.

Thus, charging in with your Carrier makes about as much sense, as practicing ramming tactics with your corvettes. YES, you might do damage, but you'll lose in the long run-it's something that only works once in a set piece battle or immediate tactical scenario, and it's a move that can lose the strategic level conflict, especially if you make a habit of it.

this isn't to say there aren't situations where it's called for, but they're not going to be common unless you've got the Lyran High Command planning out your operations and Morgan Kell's got the brain-flu and can't show up for work.

[Jellico]

Risk vs reward. You have to filter everything through the lenses of limited jump collars. Likewise standing off with ASF isn't as easy as in real life. There is an interplay between standard and strategic thrust. Battletech CVs have to assume that they will be shot at simply because there are so many ways of getting to them. Finally hangers are protected in a way our modern fuel-air bombs can't be.

Clearly something like a Vengeance with its aft canted weapons is supposed to spend its days running away.

With a Leopard it isn't so clear. Cargo space for only a few sorties. No depth with only six airframes. It is a one and done platform where the presence of the carrier probably will tip the balance.

Like anything else, pick your battles. But don't leave a solid weapon off the table when facing perfectly survivable situations which will only cost you more ASF.

[idea weenie]

Can you put capital ECM on a Dropshuttle and launch that Dropshuttle from a Warship?

The Warship is the carrier, the Dropshuttle carries the capital ECM, and Small Craft + ASF perform the strike.

[AlphaMirage]

Why not just use a regular warship/Dropship arrangement? You get more bang for the KF core.

There is also nothing special about Dropshuttles beside lacking the boom and being size restricted to 5ktons

[idea weenie]

Why not just use a regular warship/Dropship arrangement? You get more bang for the KF core.

There is also nothing special about Dropshuttles beside lacking the boom and being size restricted to 5ktons

Dropshuttle vs Dropship cuts down the Warship's KF drive cost.  Not sure about the docking time of the duo (i.e. which takes less time to dock, a Dropship or a Dropshuttle)

[Alan Grant]

I really only meant I would put a carrier in that ECM coverage of its ASF squadron role, as a true last resort.

As I said, I'd prefer to use something else first and most of the time. The Avenger comes to mind or something akin to that. A small combat dropship.

But as a tactical and strategic last resort, it may be better than sending forth a squadron when the opponent will definitely win. If losing that upcoming engagement means I lose space superiority, I lose the jump point, I lose my jumpships, I lose my troop ships, I just flat out lose if this ASF squadron doesn't achieve its mission this sortie.

So on that point I agree with you, keep the carrier alive. My reference to the contrary was truly the .01 percentile exception.

[DevianID]

The Leopard CV is a great vessel.  A slightly larger version would be less economical but if you have 12 fighters plus 2 small craft on something 5k-10k tons in size I think you have a winner.  A step up from the Leopard with a bit more range and capability, without being a full on large carrier craft.  Great for light interdiction roles, with the small craft bays and a generous fuel and cargo hold letting it do important logistic missions, unlike the smaller dropships which cant support logistics missions.  Fuel and cargo are really important, more important then speed if you are budgeting for a smaller size, as they let you support multiple fighter sorties and keep the fleet in action for extended tours.

Also, a leopard CV but with 4 small craft and 100 tons for fuel/ cargo support would be great.  Something to send out to far away places to handle all the 'coast guard' duties.  This coast guard 'cutter' could pack a pair of SAR small craft and a pair of aerofighters when on patrol, and could switch to 4 personal shuttles for dedicated jumpship/dropship/space station rescue or boarding/search and seizure.  And at 1900 tons it would be the cheap option for a paramilitary force like the coast guard cutter compared to the military only nature of the leopard CV since the aerofighters are only good at attacking.

[Cannonshop]

The Leopard CV is a great vessel.  A slightly larger version would be less economical but if you have 12 fighters plus 2 small craft on something 5k-10k tons in size I think you have a winner.  A step up from the Leopard with a bit more range and capability, without being a full on large carrier craft.  Great for light interdiction roles, with the small craft bays and a generous fuel and cargo hold letting it do important logistic missions, unlike the smaller dropships which cant support logistics missions.  Fuel and cargo are really important, more important then speed if you are budgeting for a smaller size, as they let you support multiple fighter sorties and keep the fleet in action for extended tours.

Also, a leopard CV but with 4 small craft and 100 tons for fuel/ cargo support would be great.  Something to send out to far away places to handle all the 'coast guard' duties.  This coast guard 'cutter' could pack a pair of SAR small craft and a pair of aerofighters when on patrol, and could switch to 4 personal shuttles for dedicated jumpship/dropship/space station rescue or boarding/search and seizure.  And at 1900 tons it would be the cheap option for a paramilitary force like the coast guard cutter compared to the military only nature of the leopard CV since the aerofighters are only good at attacking.

Your 'coast guard' CV would be an in-system only craft, and only financially viable within an earth/moon axis.  (it can't handle more distant ops in a star system for the same reasons you can't really defend a system with your ground based fighters-it takes too long to get anywhere you need it to be.)

a better 'coast guard' vessel would be a Quetzcoatl Scout, because that one can go from L1 to L1 and maybe get rescue boats or customs inspectors where they need to be before everyone in an accident suffocates or dies of thirst.  (better still, would be something with a limited jump drive AND powerful in-system engines, a 1LY drive inside a star system and you can cover everything out to the oort with something that'll get there before the end of the month.)