Author Topic: Taurian Concordat info  (Read 36580 times)

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #30 on: 02 February 2011, 09:25:44 »
Don't know of anything saying that the MAF wasn't.  HB:MPS states that the Dunianshire plant has been putting out hardware since the 2800s, and the only vehicles listed are the Manticore and Po - and the Po certainly hasn't been around that long, so something had to be being produced for a while.  Maybe not that long, but since the Manticore dates back to the 2500s it's certainly not impossible.
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lrose

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #31 on: 02 February 2011, 09:36:29 »
Not really, considering the neighboring Periphery state in even worse shape (the magistracy) was already producing their own fusion powered main battle tank (the manticore). As were the Lyrans, Combine, Federales, and... I think everybody else but the Taurians.


And while they weren't MBTs- the Taurians were building 2 fusion powered vehicles in 3025- the J. Edgar and the Hunter.

Moonsword

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #32 on: 02 February 2011, 10:11:34 »
Don't know of anything saying that the MAF wasn't.  HB:MPS states that the Dunianshire plant has been putting out hardware since the 2800s, and the only vehicles listed are the Manticore and Po - and the Po certainly hasn't been around that long, so something had to be being produced for a while.  Maybe not that long, but since the Manticore dates back to the 2500s it's certainly not impossible.

I'm not saying they're not, I'm just wondering if it's inference from MPS (which is reasonable) or if there's an actual note about it somewhere.  The only production mentioned in TRO3039 is in the FedCom states with Bulldog setting up a line on Proserpina in the DC.  There's also the possibility that they were building something else and switched to Manticores later on.  That doesn't make it impossible or even improbable, just interesting, and I don't have any objection to them doing it.  I'm just curious.

lrose

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #33 on: 02 February 2011, 10:41:44 »
I'm not saying they're not, I'm just wondering if it's inference from MPS (which is reasonable) or if there's an actual note about it somewhere.  The only production mentioned in TRO3039 is in the FedCom states with Bulldog setting up a line on Proserpina in the DC. 

Actually from TR3039

It is a testament to TechniCorp’s solid design that the Manticore is presently produced by no less than six manufacturers, nearly five
centuries after its inception.

and

Licensing the vehicle to other companies has spread the Manticore’s reputation to the farthest corners in the Inner Sphere and parts of the Periphery.

The factories we know of from other sources are:
Jalastar - Panopour  (TR3039/HBHD)
DefHes - Hesperus II (TR3039/HBHS)
Bulldog - Proserpina  (TR3039/Objective Raids)
Quickcell- Ares (OR)
Majestry Metals & Manufacturing - (OR, Periphery 1e)

If anything we are missing a manufacturer for the Manticore in 3039.  We would be missing 2 if we discount the MOC.  Depending on how you view the entry in Periphery 1e the Manticore has been in production there since at least 3025. 

Moonsword

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #34 on: 02 February 2011, 10:55:13 »
Ah, that would be it.

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #35 on: 02 February 2011, 15:01:43 »
Where are you getting the Manticore in production in the Magistracy at that point in time?

Periphery first edition, supported by handbook major periphery states, which has the Manticore still listed in production in the magistracy in the same location.

Despite what some might say, periphery one isn't a complete loss and shouldn't be viewed as such. In one case, it was ruled that since periphery 1 lists the commando in production by the concordat in 3025 and no other sources or rulings constradicted this, then the Commando has been in production there since 3025. It strikes me the same would apply here.
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Moonsword

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #36 on: 02 February 2011, 15:16:45 »
Okay, again, I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be.  Never my intention.  I was just wondering if there was a listing somewhere I didn't know about or if it was "only" well-founded analysis.  (As if that's ever a mere anything!)

I've never viewed the Periphery as a total loss, either.

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #37 on: 02 February 2011, 15:25:04 »
Okay, again, I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be.  Never my intention.  I was just wondering if there was a listing somewhere I didn't know about or if it was "only" well-founded analysis.  (As if that's ever a mere anything!)

I've never viewed the Periphery as a total loss, either.

No confrontation intended. Periphery 1 is a hot button at times, and I figured it was a good idea to have that last part said before anybody else came in after the fact to belabor the point.  ;D
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Stormfury

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #38 on: 03 February 2011, 00:29:39 »
Manufacturing a borderline LosTech vehicle at a Star League-era plant is, however, a very different propsition to replicating a band-new vehicle from the other side of the Inner sphere.
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Medron Pryde

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #39 on: 03 February 2011, 01:56:55 »
If you have the plans and the infrastructure, you can build anything.

The Taurians were almost certainly building SOMETHING there before they started building the Rommel and they most certainly have the infrastructure to build fusion-powered combat units.

They build the Sabre and Thunderbird AeroSpace Fighters, several BattleMechs, the J. Edgar fusion-powered hovertank, and other vehicles.  They also build the new Plainsman hovertank designed specifically for the Wolfs Dragoons so we KNOW they have the technological knowhow to build new designs.

Honestly, saying the Taurians can't build a new fusion powered vehicle is rather well shown to be totally a false idea based on all of the canon info we have.  The only issue is getting the plans, and considering how many Lyran designs the Taurians build, that is an EASY story to write.  ;)
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Stormfury

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #40 on: 03 February 2011, 02:21:03 »
All of which is irrelevant, given that the writers have decided it was an error to provide that vehicle to the Taurians, yet you, a fact-checker for the most recent product detailing what they did make, insist that they have a capacity canon is explicit in stating they do not.

According to your logic, the Outworlds Alliance is capable of or should be manufacturing the Marauder Mark II.
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Medron Pryde

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #41 on: 03 February 2011, 04:59:49 »
Source please.
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Stormfury

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #42 on: 03 February 2011, 05:09:37 »
P. 119, Handbook: Major Periphery States.

"Contrary to accepted wisdom, the Rommel has never been produced on Perdition..."

You are listed as a fact checker on p. 4.
« Last Edit: 03 February 2011, 05:13:33 by Stormfury »
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

Medron Pryde

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #43 on: 03 February 2011, 05:41:45 »
Source for the Marauder Mark II.
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Moonsword

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #44 on: 03 February 2011, 08:01:48 »
His point is not that it's listed in a source, it's that they have the infrastructure to produce BattleMechs (the first new 'Mech in a while was theirs, after all) and the technological know how to do so as well, particularly after recent modernization efforts but without even considering the influence of the Ravens.  Your logic, not his.  Either both proposals are incorrect (which they are) or they're both right because they rest upon the same argument.

Now, could they put the Rommel into production?  Given some time and resources, yes, certainly.  It's pretty clearly stated that they haven't, which is the point.

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #45 on: 04 February 2011, 10:43:26 »
Hmm.... I think that it may be a good time to relax and remember that this is stompy robots game and that these forums are a friendly place. Because I forget it every time I read this topic.

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Taurianspy

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #46 on: 05 February 2011, 03:10:21 »
Medron,

We have been fighting this battle for way too long.  Just let him go.  He's already proven your point with his own defense.


Stormfury,

Old military saying,  "There's a reason that old bastard stinks, he's arleady survived all the shit your about to get into."

Medrons got web pages that are older than many of the players here, so don't push too hard on the limited scope of a fact checker.  But, what it does say is that he has enough respect from the BT community and the fortitude to have earned the honorable mention in a publicated resource.  I am pretty sure I have not seen a similiar reference for Stormfury.

To:Everyone

To be honestly truthful, more canon material has been written on Wolf's Dragoons than any of the Major Periphery States individually, and ninety percent of what is Periphery canon, has been written to support Inner Sphere storyline.  In the faction handbooks, Wolf's Dragoons has more reference for their 5 years of service for that specific Inner Sphere faction than the whole of the Periphery's influence for the last 250 game years on that specific Inner Sphere faction.  With those points alone, any one of the Periphery factions have a basis for objection for what the Inner Sphere knows and doesn't know about Periphery development.

In the old days, the standing rule was 'The Periphery factions used record sheets available to provide forces for battle that they would likely be able to field, yet canon materials had yet to supply as official.'  In 1988, the release of the oiginal Periphery sourcebook in conjunction with the original Star League Sourcebook provided a logical and reasonable balance of the Periphery and the Inner Sphere states as supported by those resources.  But, with it's publication came a problem.  In writing the Periphery Sourcebook, 'canon' source, began to override the unofficial rule of 'likely able to field.'  To be honest, if the writer's spent as much time writing about the Periphery as they did about Wolf's Dragoons, the issue would have been irrelevant.  But, the resources available to the Periphery were typically out of date before they were even published, nor did the published materials maintain enough content to support the Periphery factions ability to field a balance force in comparison to Inner Sphere forces.

Furthermore, although a distinction was made between the Major Periphery powers and the Lesser Periphery powers, references made to 'the periphery' were applied to both powers by the readers when they should have been written by the writers specifically to apply to the major, minor or even independants powers for clarification for the reader.

As time has gone by in both game time and real time, the margin of reasonable forces between the Inner Sphere and the Major Periphery has increased.  In 3025, Major Periphery forces individually were equal in technology, but in design reasonably lighter.  This game balancing application was more than reasonable, allowing Major Periphery factions forces to battle Inner Sphere factions forces within a limited scope and still have the ability to win a tactical decision, but ultimately loose in a strategical decision.  As the game has developed over the years, advanced technology has been handed out freely to Inner Sphere factions while it has been withheld from the Major Periphery factions.  The rules of reasonable forces has become so imbalancedd that Major Periphery faction forces cannot gain a tactical victory, let alone a strategic one.  Not only are Major Periphery forces lighter, they are equiped with less technology and the technology being supplied is often so mis-appropriately used as to make it unfunctional.  Two recent examples are the Archer ARC-6W and the Thunderbird D50.  Both are designated as upgrades but are less functional in actual gameplay.  The Archer has decreased range, decreased hit percentages, decreased longevity that leads to a degrigation of its primary function as a long range support platform.  Ironically, it's the only heavy long range support platform that the TC has.   As for the Thunderbird, the original version had a balanced spectrum of attack range.  Replacing the LRM's with AC10's degrigates that balance by reducing long range ability to hit by 3 hexes as well as decreasing hit probabilities at all ranges above 6 hexes.  The minimum range of the LRM's was not an issue, because the ML's compensated for it.  The range scope of the new weapons forces TC pilots to get closer to their targets, which increases the chances of being out maneuvered and attacked from the rear, mitigating the advantage gained by equiping the AC's in the first place.  Ironically, the choice was made to add 8 heat sinks instead of changing to DHS, which would have created a much better heat profile, nor was pulse or extended range equipment used that was available.  Equiping ER Lasers, LBX AC's and DHS's, thats an upgrade that the TC is capable of in 3075.

The last subject I do want to address is the Rommel Tank.  Stormfury argues the point that the Inner Sphere stripped many of it's fusion engine tanks of their power plants during the Successor Wars for use in Battlemechs.  But, as the Inner Sphere is so accustom to pointing out, the Periphery is not the Inner Sphere.  The Periphery had not fought in any major battles since the end of the Star League until the MoC's incursions into the Capellan Confederation.  Which means, the production levels being produced by Periphery war industry manufacturer's have been set to maintain replacement of old and worn out equipment only.  Defense doctrine is going to have minimum production capabilities that would far exceed those production numbers during preparation for war or a wartime production level.  In a realworld touch of reality, a rep of Oshkosh Truck could not be specific, but indicated current production of their vehicles could substancially be increased in a matter of months.  When clarification of substancial was requested, they indicated not in a percentage, but in a multiple.  That indicates an increase larger than 2 times current production if needed.  Another indicator of military capability was my local ammunition production facility.  I recently was employed to dismantle this facility.  This facility was maintained in a shutdown readiness condition from the end of the Korean war until the start of Vietman, roughly 15 years.  It was up and running within 6 months, and it supplied all of the rocket propellant and all of the artillery shells used in the Vietman War.  That was just one facility.  It had a sister plant that was never started up during Vietnam.  More amazing, the US declared war against Japan on Dec 7, 1941.  The complete facility was built (7800 buildings) within a year.  Now, reference that capability to a reasonable TC capability to produce say a RL equiped Maultier and you could have 45 regiments of light attack vehicles on the defense within a couple of years.  Unlike a limited amount of 'Rommel similiar' heavy tanks, those cheap little Maultiers could mess up an all out Davion invasion that is foreseen in the coming future.  You might want to ceed the 'Rommel similiar', because the instantanious attack from a lance of Maultiers (cost:under 2 million) could be 30 RL/10's, and the following attack of 6 platoons of anti-mech trained infantry (cost:under 8 million) on downed mechs isn't pretty.  Isn't it nice we have a mandatory 2 year service in the military, and a complete population of trained soldiers to defend our beloved TC.
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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #47 on: 05 February 2011, 06:42:11 »
The Periphery and Inner Sphere were never meant to be equals, for design types and numbers, technologic, or any other "balance" rubric you may wish to apply. Their forces have always been written as inferior.

Whilst there may not have been any major incursions into the Periphery, the Taurians, Canopians, and others were fighting constant battles against pirates, with the odd raid from the Inner Sphere just to keep things really interesting. The Canopians also got themselves way in over their heads with the Andurian Secession, and their forces were mangled in it.

The Star League took great pains to minimise the amount of military technology the Periphery could field in the wake of the Reunification War, evidently wiping out all of the Periphery's heavy naval industry (WarShips and JumpShips) and left them capable of building nothing heavier than the Union DropShip-wise. They also put in the effort to eradicate local military industries, right down to exterminating the Toro (aside from the one that was hidden and later put on display). Whilst the latter may be in new information/retcon territory, it simply supports material that has been around since the Periphery was first paid attention to.

When advanced technologies began to be recovered, the Periphery lagged behind for many reasons. First and foremost, they simply lacked the technological expertise to have a real crack it it. Literacy rates aside, the Periphery nations clearly didn't have a developed enough tertiary education system to handle the Helm Core even if they could get their hands on it. Even when they did begin prototyping, the local military-industrial complex was not robust enough to support swift research, development, or deployment of advanced technologies.

In sum, the Periphery's techological and logistical base was in ruins, and had been for centuries. Even when the Inner Sphere was stripping vehicles for their fusion reactors, they could at least comfort themselves with the knowledge that they weren't as backwards as the Periphery nations, who would be doing well to keep a fusion-powered 'Mech alive at all.

Finally, real-world production figures are not germane to the discussion. BT companies build what canon states they can build, at the rate canon says they can build it- no more, no less.
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Medron Pryde

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #48 on: 05 February 2011, 14:45:56 »
Your opinions do appear to conform to what recent writing suggests could be the current look at the Periphery.

Smaller, dumber, slower, simpler, easily used, et cetera.  In short, worse than the Successor States in all ways and only worth playing if they are allied with a greater power of some kind to make them useful.

The original FASA look at the Periphery was suitably different.

Smaller, but not dumber or simpler.  Every single major Periphery state designed new war machines for instance, two of them new BattleMechs, another new BattleMech ENTERED production.  The Outworlds Alliance has a better ASF force than even the Successor States IN CONCENTRATION.  AKA, it can defend well in its space, well enough that the Houses are wary of it.  The Magistracy has the best medical system in the Human Sphere.  The Taurians have the best education system in the Human Sphere.  In most other ways they are worse than the Houses, but they each have strengths that the people who read about them end up falling in love with.  And finally, they are independent of the greater powers, for those people who want to have FUN playing without the Great Houses or the Clans.

In the Successor States, they fight to defeat the other Houses so they can rule supreme.  In the Periphery, they work TOGETHER to fight off pirates and other scourges of mankind.

This is the version of the Periphery that existed when I began playing BattleTech, this is the version of the Periphery that changed me from being a primary fan of the Free Worlds League to a primary fan of the Periphery, and this is the version of the Periphery that I continue to play and support now. 
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Taurianspy

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #49 on: 05 February 2011, 23:03:16 »
Medron,

It is as it has always been.  You cannot reason with them.  The cattle are pampered and fed and they are happy.  Even as the butcher prepares his impliments of slaughter, they cannot fathom the concept that they have been lead to the slaughter by their master.

If they follow the DA timeline, a timeline that didn't include most of the IS faction, what are the IS factions going to do when Stone dismantle them.  Then they will know what it feels like.  And 80 years later, they get to look forward to using industrial mechs to fight their battles.  Enjoy battletech in a form that has already proven to fail.  I know I have enjoyed the last 20 years playing their equivilent.  >:(
"Bosephus" and "Stumprunner" was not just a man and his mech.  They were a style of play that left everyone thinking about the impact of piloting skill on the game.  Unconscious pilots and prone mechs are easy targets even for poor marksman.

Stormfury

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #50 on: 05 February 2011, 23:29:26 »
The original FASA version of the Periphery is strongly at odds with the depiction you present, Medron.

Literacy rates are all well and good. However, ensuring everyone can read does not translate to having a superb education system; it just means that everyone can read. The Magistracy's medical expertise has been retained over time, but since the game is BattleTech and not MediTech, that does not help it much. In the case of the Outworlds Alliance, they realised swiftly they could never compete on the ground, and since DropShip and ASF tech at the time was the same the Sphere and Periphery over, they made a decision to try and preven opponents ever reaching the ground. That worked well enough in their case due to their most common opponent- pirates- needing to engage them that way, and they avoided antagonising their Great House neighbours to avoid conflict with them.

The Periphery States certainly weren't banding together to work towards a common goal or fight anything. They too were fractious, engaged in long-running disputes. The Trinity Alliance was, in fact, notable for former enemies coming together, the Circinians were raiding everyone, the Marians and Lothians didn't get along, the Magistracy was in conflict with the Free Worlds League, and the Bandit nations above the Draconis Combine and Lyran Commonwealth were no better off.

Taurianspy, I suggest you not refer to all non-Periphery (or Non-Taurian) fans as "cattle."

Further, what you are suggesting occurs in fact does not. IndustrialMechs were in use by the splinter factions and planetary militias in the Dark Age, but do not represent what the Houses or standing military of the Republic were deploying.
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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #51 on: 06 February 2011, 02:33:17 »
OK Ladies and Gentlemen

Lets back this down a little bit shall we? There's no right or wrong answer here so there will be some differences of opinion. but lets keep the sweeping generalisations to ourselves shall we? This is the second mod request to tone things down in this page alone.

Next time we have to come in here we shall not be so polite.
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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #52 on: 06 February 2011, 04:02:09 »
Further, what you are suggesting occurs in fact does not. IndustrialMechs were in use by the splinter factions and planetary militias in the Dark Age, but do not represent what the Houses or standing military of the Republic were deploying.

I'd suggest tagging that with "primarily deploying in large numbers." House forces did employ Industrial Mechs in Dark Age material. Those weren't exclusive to the splinter factions. They were definitely not the majority of House forces though (as presented to date, which is limited info), and I'm thinking we're on the same page there.

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #53 on: 06 February 2011, 05:24:11 »
We have our first Taurian thread with a Mod Warning of the new board! This calls ofr much celebration and rejoincing!
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Medron Pryde

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #54 on: 06 February 2011, 14:55:39 »
I am still waiting for the source that says that the Outworlds Alliance builds the Marauder Mark II.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #55 on: 06 February 2011, 15:04:19 »
We have our first Taurian thread with a Mod Warning of the new board! This calls ofr much celebration and rejoincing!

I'm not sure celebrating and rejoicing is what this calls for. How "maybe a brand new Lyran tank isn't the best fit for a nation on the other side of the inner sphere" turned into some vast conspiracy against the Taurians (and not just the Taurians, but Taurian players) is beyond me. But trudging through the nonsense makes it a lot harder to find actual information here.

I am still waiting for the source that says that the Outworlds Alliance builds the Marauder Mark II.

Nobody said they were.
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Medron Pryde

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #56 on: 06 February 2011, 21:56:22 »
According to your logic, the Outworlds Alliance is capable of or should be manufacturing the Marauder Mark II.

I'm asking for the source that would make me say this.  Where does it say that the Outworlds builds this design?  If there is a place that says it, then yes I would be interested in that.  I've never seen a source that says that.  I'm asking for the source.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #57 on: 06 February 2011, 22:20:59 »
...

Yeah, I'm out.
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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #58 on: 06 February 2011, 22:53:17 »
Quote
I'm asking for the source that would make me say this.  Where does it say that the Outworlds builds this design?  If there is a place that says it, then yes I would be interested in that.  I've never seen a source that says that.  I'm asking for the source.

At this point, and without trying to be snide, I really have to ask you if you are a native speaker of English. What I said there, which Moonsword expanded upon and Liam understands as well, is clear and concise. If you are not a native speaker, we can perhaps try again.

I provided the references you demanded, and since I can also recall Kit de Summersville telling you point-blank on the old forums that the material he wrote neither said what you claimed it did nor was intended to infer what you were reading into it, I can only conclude that either you are a non-native speaker or are completely uninterested in what canon says and prefer to deliberately perpetuate misinformation. If it is the latter, I decline to engage any further on this line of debate.

I shall attempt one last time to address what got us here; the OP called for the canon machines and technologies available within a certain timeframe. Information that was incorrect was then introduced and claimed to be canon.

I have no problem with the Taurian Concordat or its fans, nor with "faction pride" in general. However, there is a major difference between the subjective (opinions) and the objective (what the books say) and attempting to conflate the two and frame the presentation of the latter as some sort of group or personal attack is not overly helpful.
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Re: Taurian Concordat info
« Reply #59 on: 06 February 2011, 23:03:07 »
Wow,

Literacy rates just mean you can read.
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Wow
"Bosephus" and "Stumprunner" was not just a man and his mech.  They were a style of play that left everyone thinking about the impact of piloting skill on the game.  Unconscious pilots and prone mechs are easy targets even for poor marksman.