Author Topic: Ironhold II Assault Battle Armor  (Read 5576 times)

sillybrit

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Ironhold II Assault Battle Armor
« on: 11 November 2011, 18:42:32 »
Exploiting a quirk of the design rules regarding Jump Boosters, here's an upgrade for the already impressive Ironhold.

Note: HMBA has hissy fits about this design, and any design that doesn't have the maximum base jump capacity for the chassis, due to an incorrect interpretation of the original construction rules from Classic BattleTech Companion, that is now in any case overridden by Tech Manual.

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        Classic BattleTech Battle Armor Technical Readout

Type/Model:    Ironhold II 
Tech/Era:      Clan / 3085 / CBT Rules
Chassis Type:  Humanoid
Weight Class:  Assault Battle Armor (1,501 - 2,000 kg)
Rules:         Level 2, Standard design

Ground Speed:  10.8 km/h
Jump Capacity: 90 meters
Armor Type:    Fire Resistant

------------------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model:    Ironhold II
Equipment:                                          Slots    Mass
Chassis Type:  Assault Class Humanoid with HarJel     0       700
Motive System: Ground Movement (1 MP)                 0         0
               Jump Jets       (1 MP)                 0       250
               Jump Booster (Body, +1 Jump MP)        2       125
Armor Type:    16 Points Fire Resistant               5       480

Manipulators:
  Left Arm:    Armored Glove                          0         0
  Right Arm:   Armored Glove                          0         0

Weapons and Equipment                Loc     Shots  Slots    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------
AP Gauss Rifle*                      RA        50     2       200
AP Gauss Rifle*                      LA        50     2       200
Squad Support Weapon Mount           Body             1         0
 ECM Suite* @                        Body             1        80
 @ Trooper #1, other 4 troopers have: (Anti-Personnel Weapon Space)
------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                              13     1,985
Slots & Mass Left:                                    1        15

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:     1,059,500 C-Bills
Battle Value:   86 (430 for 5)  Weapon Value: 85 (Ratio=.99)
Cost per BV:    12,319.77
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 7   MRDmg = 1   LRDmg = 0
Mechanized:     Cannot travel on any 'Mechs or Vehicles
Attacks:        Can not perform Swarm or Leg attacks
BattleForce2:   Class: IB   MP: 2J   Armor/Structure: 4 / 0
                Damage PB/M/L: 2/2/-   Overheat: 0
                Point Value: 4    Specials: mecm, car5

                Created by HeavyMetal Battle Armor

I'd also posted an upgrade for the Ironhold (Fire) on the old board, repeating it here:

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        Classic BattleTech Battle Armor Technical Readout
                        * CUSTOM EQUIPMENT

Type/Model:    Ironhold (Fire) II 
Tech/Era:      Clan / 3085 / CBT Rules
Chassis Type:  Humanoid
Weight Class:  Assault Battle Armor (1,501 - 2,000 kg)
Rules:         Level 2, Standard design

Ground Speed:  21.6 km/h
Armor Type:    Fire Resistant

------------------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model:    Ironhold (Fire) II
Equipment:                                          Slots    Mass
Chassis Type:  Assault Class Humanoid with HarJel     0       700
Motive System: Ground Movement (2 MP)                 0       160
Armor Type:    18 Points Fire Resistant               5       540

Manipulators:
  Left Arm:    Armored Glove                          0         0
  Right Arm:   Armored Glove                          0         0

Weapons and Equipment                Loc     Shots  Slots    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------
AP Gauss Rifle/DWP*                  RA        20     1       150
AP Gauss Rifle/DWP*                  LA        20     1       150
AP Gauss Rifle/DWP*                  Body      20     1       150
AP Gauss Rifle/DWP*                  Body      20     1       150
------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                               9     2,000
Slots & Mass Left:                                    5         0

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:     723,000 C-Bills
Battle Value:   113 (565 for 5)  Weapon Value: 172 (Ratio=1.52)
Cost per BV:    6,398.23
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 9   MRDmg = 1   LRDmg = 0
Mechanized:     Cannot travel on any 'Mechs or Vehicles
Attacks:        Can not perform Swarm or Leg attacks
BattleForce2:   Class: IB   MP: 2   Armor/Structure: 4 / 0
                Damage PB/M/L: 4/4/-   Overheat: 0
                Point Value: 6    Specials: car5

                Created by HeavyMetal Battle Armor

In the case of the Ironhold II, using Jump Boosters to provide the second jump MP saves 125kg, which I used to upgrade the armor to Fire Resistant while adding a Squad Support Weapon Mount that can mount Machine Guns or smaller equipment, with my preference being an ECM Suite, Light TAG or Improved Sensors. An alternative setup would replace the SSWM with a SRM2(OS) or a Light TAG, perhaps also adding 1 or 2 APWMs as appropriate. With the Ironhold (Fire) II, the switch to using Detachable Weapon Packs allowed the protection to be increased to 18 points. Both suits swap the Basic Manipulators for Armored Gloves, allowing the use of infantry weapons such as the Mauser IIC or Heavy Auto GL.

Pa Weasley

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Re: Ironhold II Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #1 on: 13 November 2011, 19:34:29 »
Congrats, you managed to make the Ironhold even more unpleasant to deal with.  :D

Lagrange

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Re: Ironhold II Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #2 on: 14 November 2011, 16:59:26 »
The fire variant looks very solid to me. 

I would consider downgrading the AP-gauss into MicroPLs, freeing up 160 kg, that can be invested in a SSWM + APWM + (vibro) claws.  The APWM seems a bit superior to hands in terms of skill requirements, while the claws allow extra damage.  If 2 points of such battlearmor hide in a building where a mech walks by and aim high (as per tactical operations), they suffer a -2 (pulse)+3 (aim high) +target movement.  If they all hit you have an expected 25 hits from the cluster table, 4 of which are expected to be on the head, doing the magical 12 damage.  That's a pretty scary alternative to the swarm attacks that assault battle armor can't make.

sillybrit

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Re: Ironhold II Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #3 on: 14 November 2011, 20:10:59 »
The Fire variant cannot mount a SSWM without losing one of the main weapons. A bipedal suit can mount one MWM (or fixed 'Mech-scale weapon) on each arm and two in the torso, with one of those mounts/weapons exchangable for a SSWM, plus a similar pattern of APWMs. An APWM can also replace an arm-mounted MWM/fixed 'Mech weapon.

While MiPLs are excellent in close quarters, overall they're a poor replacement for APGRs due to the big loss of range, something that such a slow suit can ill afford - obviously 'Mechs and tanks can carry weaponry with a range greater than 9, but the futher away you can keep them, the better it is for the Battle Armor; having an enemy sitting at range 10 and thus at Medium or Long is much better than having them at range 4 and thus at Short or Medium. Another issue, if attempting to strike from ambush using the Hidden Units rules, even the shorter ranged Inner Sphere Active Probes will detect the Battle Armor from outside the range of the MiPLs, and the more you play with Battle Armor the more you'll find opponents start loading units with Probes, especially in scenarios with Hidden units.

Likewise, vibro-claws are a generally poor choice for Heavies and Assaults, since their only use is melee attacks against other infantry, with the damage and range 0 combo a poor substitute for heavier or more ranged weapons. If you have the spare mass or if you're designing a Marine unit, then they're useful, but a more efficient use for 100kg that you can't otherwise put into weapons, mounts or armor is to fit ECM. Ghost Targets alone make Battle Armor far more useful and dangerous, never mind the other EW modes.

While APWMs have the potential advantage of using Battlesuit skills as opposed to normal firearm skills when using the RPG, with the advantage depending upon whether the Small Arms Support Weapons skills have been slighted or not, APWMs have more restrictions than Armored Gloves in purely BattleTech terms. APWMs are limited to Standard type infantry weapons or a Disposable Weapon, while Armored Gloves can be used to wield any non-Melee weapon with a Crew requirement of 1 or 1E, which allows some Support type weapons, and those suits with two Armored Gloves can also use Disposable Weapons. Disposables are generally unimpressive, but the ability to wield the burst-capable Portable Machine Gun and Inferno-capable Standard Two-Shot SRM (assuming use of actual infantry weapon stats instead of default rules) is very useful, together with the IS option of a David Light Gauss Rifle or Man-Portable Plasma Rifle or the Clan option of a Heavy Auto Grenade Launcher, none of which can be mounted on APWMs.

Lagrange

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Re: Ironhold II Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #4 on: 15 November 2011, 10:10:51 »
The Fire variant cannot mount a SSWM without losing one of the main weapons.

I hadn't realized that.   In this case, keeping the weapon seems more valuable.

While MiPLs are excellent in close quarters, overall they're a poor replacement for APGRs due to the big loss of range, something that such a slow suit can ill afford - obviously 'Mechs and tanks can carry weaponry with a range greater than 9, but the futher away you can keep them, the better it is for the Battle Armor; having an enemy sitting at range 10 and thus at Medium or Long is much better than having them at range 4 and thus at Short or Medium. Another issue, if attempting to strike from ambush using the Hidden Units rules, even the shorter ranged Inner Sphere Active Probes will detect the Battle Armor from outside the range of the MiPLs, and the more you play with Battle Armor the more you'll find opponents start loading units with Probes, especially in scenarios with Hidden units.

I am skeptical about the use of battle armor in open field combat.  They are one direct fire arrow IV round away from death at all times.  Since the artillery fires at a hex, no amount of futzing with the ECMs, camo, mimetic, stealth, etc.... changes this.

The hidden units rules are a problem, but not an insurmountable one---you just need to avoid LOS.  This can be done by having the BA hide underwater, behind a building or sufficient numbers of woods or smoke.   All of these imply ranges, once LOS is established, which are reasonable for MicroPL.

The other thing to consider is that not all scenarios are such that an invader has the luxury of proceeding 30 meters/round, slowly revealing each hidden unit at maximum range.  Most scout mechs, for example, can easily outrun the range of their sensor.

Likewise, vibro-claws are a generally poor choice for Heavies and Assaults...

I generally agree, but you're out of space for more weapons.  ECM is a reasonable alternative.

While APWMs have the potential advantage of using Battlesuit skills as opposed to normal firearm skills when using the RPG, with the advantage depending upon whether the Small Arms Support Weapons skills have been slighted or not, APWMs have more restrictions than Armored Gloves in purely BattleTech terms. APWMs are limited to Standard type infantry weapons or a Disposable Weapon, while Armored Gloves can be used to wield any non-Melee weapon with a Crew requirement of 1 or 1E, which allows some Support type weapons, and those suits with two Armored Gloves can also use Disposable Weapons. Disposables are generally unimpressive, but the ability to wield the burst-capable Portable Machine Gun and Inferno-capable Standard Two-Shot SRM (assuming use of actual infantry weapon stats instead of default rules) is very useful, together with the IS option of a David Light Gauss Rifle or Man-Portable Plasma Rifle or the Clan option of a Heavy Auto Grenade Launcher, none of which can be mounted on APWMs.

The erratad FB-M42B does 1.11 damage, which significantly reduces the value of hands over APWMs.

sillybrit

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Re: Ironhold II Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #5 on: 15 November 2011, 12:17:22 »
I am skeptical about the use of battle armor in open field combat.  They are one direct fire arrow IV round away from death at all times.  Since the artillery fires at a hex, no amount of futzing with the ECMs, camo, mimetic, stealth, etc.... changes this.

Yep, and Mine Clearance Missiles, Artillery Cannon, air-dropped bombs, the list goes on, but despite that, I and other Battle Armor players successfully dance with the big stompy robots. The art is giving the enemy a bigger target, avoiding where he's shooting, even getting in his pockets, plus (my personal favorite) at times you want them to concentrate on killing the BA, since it frees other units for the killing blow. Off-board artillery tends to be one of the less useful methods of inflicting an Area Attack on BA due to the delay and possible scatter, but it's still a good one when you have it.

I recall you mentioned in another thread that time and lack of availability of a local group meant you don't get a chance to play much, but if you do I really recommend fielding just infantry forces while other players use the heavier units. As well as being a good learning aid, its lots of fun, even if victory for you is helping other players on your side win the scenario or the simple joy of bringing down a key enemy unit before all your own troops are killed, rendered useless or left behind.

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The hidden units rules are a problem, but not an insurmountable one---you just need to avoid LOS.  This can be done by having the BA hide underwater, behind a building or sufficient numbers of woods or smoke.   All of these imply ranges, once LOS is established, which are reasonable for MicroPL.

And breaking LOS is one of the methods used, however you're going to struggle to open LOS and be in range when using MiPLs compared to longer ranged weapons such as APGRs, SRMs, MLs, etc. With a MiPL you're only going to have an advantage at range 1, at range 2 you're equal to APGRs, etc, at range 3 you're worse, and range 4+ is obvious. Opponents do not typically conveniently wander into close range, instead moving routes that do not open LOS directly next to potential ambush sites.

Of course, against evil opponents that know a hidden scenario is coming, you'll see hordes of cheap infantry scouts, damn them, which screws over every hidden unit. I hate it when that happens, but I'm just reaping the whirlwind for my past ambushes sins.

BTW, hiding Battle Armor underwater just killed them unless you have UMUs, which the above units don't have. UMUs are for very specialized units, but they can be awesome fun - I recommend the extreme depth advanced rules for some scary scenarios for the 'Mech jockeys.

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The other thing to consider is that not all scenarios are such that an invader has the luxury of proceeding 30 meters/round, slowly revealing each hidden unit at maximum range.  Most scout mechs, for example, can easily outrun the range of their sensor.

You need to check the advanced rules. With those, Probes reveal Hidden units in their path as they move, not just those in range at the end of movement. Hidden conventional infantry are still immune to detection, of course, which is just one of the reasons I'm also a big fan and user of PBIs in addition to the Battle Armor. Ironically, some infantry can make greater BA hunters.

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I generally agree, but you're out of space for more weapons.  ECM is a reasonable alternative.

Not just a reasonable alternative but a far superior alternative for an Assault or Heavy, and as a non-weapon system ECM is only limited by available mass and slots, and is not effected by the weapon limits. Not everybody has access to Area Effect weapons, which means that they're going to have to kill the Battle Armor the old fashioned way, and given the inability of the (Fire) variant to generate TMMs it needs all the help it can get, with Ghost Targets an awesome aid to keeping Battle Armor alive. If I'd been doing a clean sheet design, I'd have opted for 15 armor and ECM, but since this is meant to be an upgrade of the canon Ironhold, I preferred not to reduce armor levels.

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The erratad FB-M42B does 1.11 damage, which significantly reduces the value of hands over APWMs.

Yup, hence why it's the primary armament of my top-end IS PBIs (which I need to repost now that we've lost the forum archive), but it's also an IS weapon and the above designs are Clan, plus it's only base range 1, which isn't good for a slow Assault if you have other options. The Clan equivalent, the Mauser IIC, one of the options I noted in the first post, is base range 3 for nearly the same damage, and is generally far more useful for slow suits, giving a Point another 9 hex range attack inflicting up to 5 damage, just a point short of the M42B's 3 hex range attack. With the Support weapons that can be carried in gloves, but not mounted on APWMs, the Heavy Auto GL matches the M42Bs range with insignificantly greater damage, while the Portable MG & Standard Two-Shot SRM have less base damage, but are greater ranged, and both have useful side effects. The MG provides a +1d6 burst damage bonus against conventional infantry, so even if a single suit survives in a Point it could kill 4 or 5 infantry on average, while the SRM can be used for Infernos, with all the possibilities that offers. Looking at IS Support weapon options, the superb MP Plasma Rifle I mentioned exceeds both the range and damage of the M42B.

Lagrange

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Re: Ironhold II Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #6 on: 15 November 2011, 12:53:07 »
The Fire variant cannot mount a SSWM without losing one of the main weapons. A bipedal suit can mount one MWM (or fixed 'Mech-scale weapon) on each arm and two in the torso, with one of those mounts/weapons exchangable for a SSWM, plus a similar pattern of APWMs. An APWM can also replace an arm-mounted MWM/fixed 'Mech weapon.

I just read the TM errata on this, and I think that's not correct.  It's says "may carry one SSWM, one SMWM per arm, and two SMWM in the body" and "weapon limits rules on p. 170 still apply."  This implies you can have 4 antimech weapons and one SSWM carrying a non antimech weapon.

Yep, and Mine Clearance Missiles, Artillery Cannon, air-dropped bombs, the list goes on, but despite that, I and other Battle Armor players successfully dance with the big stompy robots.

Artillery Cannon are errated to have no area effect.

I had missed mine clearance missiles.  That sounds extremely dangerous with the -4 immobile hex modifier.

BTW, hiding Battle Armor underwater just killed them unless you have UMUs, which the above units don't have. UMUs are for very specialized units, but they can be awesome fun - I recommend the extreme depth advanced rules for some scary scenarios for the 'Mech jockeys.

Why killed? 

Battlearmor seem like they are possibly preferred in city fighting or underwater fighting where LOS unavoidably drops to MiPL range.  The techniques you mentioned for avoiding ambush should work reasonably well in open terrain, which makes the effective use of BA tough.   Why wouldn't an enemy just back off and destroy them at range when they are revealed?  It seems like you are arguing for an LRM design where at least backing off isn't so viable.

sillybrit

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Re: Ironhold II Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #7 on: 15 November 2011, 14:21:39 »
I just read the TM errata on this, and I think that's not correct.  It's says "may carry one SSWM, one SMWM per arm, and two SMWM in the body" and "weapon limits rules on p. 170 still apply."  This implies you can have 4 antimech weapons and one SSWM carrying a non antimech weapon.

You missed the SSWM errata that states:

"Though only one suit in a squad actually has the weapon, a squad support weapon mount always counts as one of a suit’s allowable anti-’Mech weapons"

The text you quoted is to stop players from trying to mount multiple SSWMs on a single suit, while the above text stops players from trying to mount SSWMs in addition to MWMs, rather than replacing a MWM.

As a side note, you also just proved a point for me and I wish I'd made a bet with jymset (the, or one of the, BT staff authorities on BA).  :)

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Artillery Cannon are errated to have no area effect.

What Artillery Cannon lost was the ability to inflict damage on surrounding hexes, they still inflict Area Effect damage in the impacted hex. The current TacOps printing still shows that they have a type of AE and the v2.1 errata doesn't remove this.

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I had missed mine clearance missiles.  That sounds extremely dangerous with the -4 immobile hex modifier.

My preference is for an Archer modified to add an LRM5 alongside the twin LRM20s. With this setup, assuming all 3 launchers hit, which is likely, the MCMs insta-kill any Medium Battle Armor and many canon heavier designs. They're also incredibly useful against fast moving targets that otherwise generate high TMMs.

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Why killed?

Because Battle Armor lacking UMUs are prohibited units for Depth 1+ water, even under TacOps. See Movement Costs Table TW p52 & the Expanded Movement Costs And Planetary Conditions Tables TacOps p32-36, specifically p32 plus the footnote on p34.

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Battlearmor seem like they are possibly preferred in city fighting or underwater fighting where LOS unavoidably drops to MiPL range.  The techniques you mentioned for avoiding ambush should work reasonably well in open terrain, which makes the effective use of BA tough.   Why wouldn't an enemy just back off and destroy them at range when they are revealed?  It seems like you are arguing for an LRM design where at least backing off isn't so viable.

Barring the UMU issue with underwater fighting, BA do generally work best in any form of confined environment when operating independently, however when operating in combined units they can be very effective, and depending upon the opponent's forces even independent open field engagements are entirely possible for many BA designs. It is a big mistake to assume that urban or other close quarters fighting will "unavoidably" force ranges as low as 3 or less, and even in those cases where it does, again it comes back to the issue that the MiPL only has an advantage at range 1 or less, which is much easier to avoid than range 2 or 3.

A LRM design is indeed the most difficult BA for an opponent to attack without retaliation, although it suffers from the ammo limitations, plus IS suits like the Hauberk have the minimum range issue, hence why the AFFS also fielded the Grenadier, although the issue can also be mitigated by self-supporting platoons, with the Hauberk squads covering each other. With any kind of Battle Armor, but especially poorly mobile suits, you want to create as big a bubble of doom as possible, compensating for the low ability to quickly move that bubble. Partly that will impose greater restrictions on the enemy's movement, assuming they don't just accept the damage, but if the enemy does attempt to destroy you they have to keep further away from weapons like the ML and APGR and thus accept lower accuracy if they want to avoid return fire. Many units have the weaponry to happily sit at range 4 and still get Short range shots, or Medium shots with lighter, typically secondary weapons. As already noted, sitting at range 10 will force Medium or Long range shots, as well as taking many secondary weapons out of range.

Often, the best BA can do is be a speed bump, slowing the enemy down as they go around them or pause to kill them. So the greater the area they can cover or the harder they can make it for the enemy to hit them, the more time they buy for other friendly forces to do what they need to do, whether it be to reinforce the BA or fulfill a mission goal. Plus, if the BA's side has artillery, you can always spot for that at ranges beyond the suit's own weaponry, but again you still need to push the enemy back as much as possible to deny them Short range shots, increasing the lifespan of the spotters.

Lagrange

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Re: Ironhold II Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #8 on: 15 November 2011, 15:31:12 »
You missed the SSWM errata that states:

"Though only one suit in a squad actually has the weapon, a squad support weapon mount always counts as one of a suit’s allowable anti-’Mech weapons"

Ok, you're right.

What Artillery Cannon lost was the ability to inflict damage on surrounding hexes, they still inflict Area Effect damage in the impacted hex. The current TacOps printing still shows that they have a type of AE and the v2.1 errata doesn't remove this.

Right again, and that bumps up the value of artillery cannons substantially in my mind.

My preference is for an Archer modified to add an LRM5 alongside the twin LRM20s. With this setup, assuming all 3 launchers hit, which is likely, the MCMs insta-kill any Medium Battle Armor and many canon heavier designs. They're also incredibly useful against fast moving targets that otherwise generate high TMMs.

So here's a magic question: Can you called shot high (tacops p 78) with a mine clearance missiles?

This would also imply a single LRM protomech that found such ammunition could munch battle armor and infantry.  It looks like an LRM-16 with 8 shots is feasible.

Because Battle Armor lacking UMUs are prohibited units for Depth 1+ water, even under TacOps. See Movement Costs Table TW p52 & the Expanded Movement Costs And Planetary Conditions Tables TacOps p32-36, specifically p32 plus the footnote on p34.

Ok.  This seems just plain odd to me.  Suits that can survive vacuum and mech weapons fire seem like they should be able to take 6 meters of water and remain operational.

Often, the best BA can do is be a speed bump, slowing the enemy down as they go around them or pause to kill them. So the greater the area they can cover or the harder they can make it for the enemy to hit them, the more time they buy for other friendly forces to do what they need to do, whether it be to reinforce the BA or fulfill a mission goal. Plus, if the BA's side has artillery, you can always spot for that at ranges beyond the suit's own weaponry, but again you still need to push the enemy back as much as possible to deny them Short range shots, increasing the lifespan of the spotters.

You have more experience here, but I'd need to be convinced by seeing it in action.  Against an opposing force not constrained to avoid AE weapons, I'm not sure the cost/benefit analysis really works out.  An LRM design might make sense---it looks like you might be able to get 12 tubes in 2/2/4/4 to fit with 4 shots each.

sillybrit

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Re: Ironhold II Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #9 on: 15 November 2011, 16:36:10 »
So here's a magic question: Can you called shot high (tacops p 78) with a mine clearance missiles?

This would also imply a single LRM protomech that found such ammunition could munch battle armor and infantry.  It looks like an LRM-16 with 8 shots is feasible.

MCMs attack a hex rather than a target, the damage inflicted to any occupying units is just an (un)fortunate side effect, and you can't really aim high at the ground, you'll just end up hitting the ground further away.  :)

MCMs are also IS-only, while Protomechs are (currently) Clan-only, which presents one problem. Another issue to bear in mind regarding MCMs, which limits their "munch" factor, is that you divide the number of missiles in the salvo by 4 rounded down, so even a LRM20 inflicts only 5 damage, while a LRM5 inflicts only 1 damage, and SRM4 or SRM6 only 2 damage.

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Ok.  This seems just plain odd to me.  Suits that can survive vacuum and mech weapons fire seem like they should be able to take 6 meters of water and remain operational.

I'd agree regarding the weaponry, but not so much with the vacuum comparison. Providing you have the breathing issue handled, you need very little material to protect you from the effects of vacuum, with that material having to cope with outward pressure effects, whereas with underwater operations you have to deal with inward pressure effects. In addition, pressures underwater rapidly build up much higher as you go deeper, whereas vacuum protection needn't even be a full 14.7 psi, with some real life suits going as low as 5 psi.

But ignoring the red herring issue of the vacuum, given the ability of the armor on BA to protect the wearer from weaponry I do agree should allow them to operate underwater, even if they're doing nothing more than walking along the bottom like most 'Mechs. Presumably it's a matter of game balance or wanting to emphasize the superiority of the 'Mech, and while it's sometimes been frustrating for me during play, I don't mind the restriction overall.

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You have more experience here, but I'd need to be convinced by seeing it in action.  Against an opposing force not constrained to avoid AE weapons, I'm not sure the cost/benefit analysis really works out.

The simple fact is that even IS forces, which have more AE weapons available than Clan, don't always field them. It costs a lot of mass to mount an Artillery Cannon, mass that could be more efficiently used for other weapons for use against 'Mechs, etc. Aero units are not always available, and in many cases the few bombs they have will generally be tasked to take out more important targets like 'Mechs, etc. Artillery is also not always available, suffers from delays and scatter, and in some scenarios is at risk of being overrun. MCMs were initially AFFS only, and they're still very much a specialist munition that will typically only take up a fraction of your force's magazine space, due to the need to carry direct attack rounds that can inflict much more damage or other specialist rounds such as Thunder.

In most scenarios you're going to have no clue beforehand what the enemy will be fielding, perhaps no clue as to the maps you'll be using, and loading up on units that can quickly and easily kill Battle Armor will leave you vulnerable to opponents that instead opted for 'Mech or tank heavy forces. In groups and campaigns that use the full variety of units, typically players will tend for generalist designs and weapons, occasionally fielding the odd specialist that sometimes earns you an advantage and sometimes leaves your force weakened. Normally, I'd face (or field) maybe one unit with MCMs, for example, and that instantly becomes a priority target (which may be that player's game plan, using it as bait, which I/we/they might guess, so I/we/they instead.... yadda, yadda, yadda).

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  An LRM design might make sense---it looks like you might be able to get 12 tubes in 2/2/4/4 to fit with 4 shots each.

Yes, and welcome to the Macross suit, it which shall not be repeated.  :) I used a trio of LRM4s, giving room for a SSWM Light TAG as well, & I was met with howls of amused disgust when I fielded that one, but it was a fun game. LRM suits generally work better with more shots per launcher, but the number of launchers does allow for some to hold back while the others fire, stretching out the firepower. It was fun being able to spam 60 LRMs from a single Point though, even if my unit was hunted down and squished by a Daishi once I was out of missiles - my own side put the Trial on hold to give him time to do it, even the Naga stopped lobbing guided Arrows for me. LOL I have a vague memory that BergStrom (a BT staffer/contributor) who used to post a lot of awesome BA designs posted one like that or very similar - he's a lot more a fan of missiles than I am, especially on Clan designs where they are so lightweight compared to their IS counterparts.

EDIT: Fixed a quote tag
« Last Edit: 15 November 2011, 17:55:41 by sillybrit »

Lagrange

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Re: Ironhold II Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #10 on: 15 November 2011, 17:05:39 »
In most scenarios you're going to have no clue beforehand what the enemy will be fielding, perhaps no clue as to the maps you'll be using, and loading up on units that can quickly and easily kill Battle Armor will leave you vulnerable to opponents that instead opted for 'Mech or tank heavy forces. In groups and campaigns that use the full variety of units, typically players will tend for generalist designs and weapons, occasionally fielding the odd specialist that sometimes earns you an advantage and sometimes leaves your force weakened. Normally, I'd face (or field) maybe one unit with MCMs, for example, and that instantly becomes a priority target (which may be that player's game plan, using it as bait, which I/we/they might guess, so I/we/they instead.... yadda, yadda, yadda).

Ok, how would you deal with a Kangaroo http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,10577.0.html ?  I realize it's a bastard in many ways, but it's an allowed design with mixed tech.

And generally, good tactics + direct fire arrow IV cluster rounds + PulseTC called shot high seems like it could be very effective mix against basically all non-ASF forces.  I'm unclear on how any ground-based force can effectively counter without mimicry.

sillybrit

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Re: Ironhold II Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #11 on: 15 November 2011, 19:06:38 »
If it's an anything goes game, then I'd meet munch with munch by fielding a golden oldie in the form of a Savannah Master swarm, perhaps with the use of suicide drones if I wanted to dabble with experimental tech as well. I also saw a similar Mech Jump Booster exploit taken down by an IS Standard's Leg Attack of all things, although that was at least in part due to overconfidence by the 'Mech player. Large numbers of VTOL BA could perhaps achieve a similar attack by careful positioning of forces to exploit the straight-line only nature of the Mech Jump Boosters, but that's going to depend upon the scenario setup, whether its all vs all, team v team, one v one, etc.

If it's a normal game, it obviously isn't playing, the same as all the other experimental designs that cropped up. That's why we have the anything goes games.

BTW, you might want to modify the stat block to include the 1.5t you allocated to the head turret.

Lagrange

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Re: Ironhold II Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #12 on: 15 November 2011, 22:43:28 »
If it's an anything goes game, then I'd meet munch with munch by fielding a golden oldie in the form of a Savannah Master swarm, perhaps with the use of suicide drones if I wanted to dabble with experimental tech as well.

There are several ways to compare:

Cost: I'll have to concede against 178 SMs.
BV: 15 SMs are pretty scary, but I'm unclear on the outcome.  The to-hit modifier is at least +5(Kangaroo jump)+1(SM movement)+1(some sort of cover) = +7.  In return, the AIV is +4(DF)+3(jump) with misses that might hit particularly against a swarm, and +4(SM movement)+3(Jump)-2(Pulse)-1(TC) = +4.  The amount of fire on target with gunnery 4 favors the Kangaroo.  At gunnery 1 the SMs might have a decent chance.  In an environment where you need to recruit, recruiting 15 elite vehicle gunners for a suicide mission would be interesting...  At gunnery 4, I think you want ~24 SMs according to a little crude analysis.
Transport Tonnage: Cargo+quarters suggests 11 SMs.

Suicide Drones would have problems with the ECM.

I also saw a similar Mech Jump Booster exploit taken down by an IS Standard's Leg Attack of all things, although that was at least in part due to overconfidence by the 'Mech player.

Mines are dangerous, but there's quite a bit of armor to work through.  A mine clearance handgun would be a nice alternative to the arrow IV handgun.  LRM-20+5 SRM-4s looks doable.

Large numbers of VTOL BA could perhaps achieve a similar attack by careful positioning of forces to exploit the straight-line only nature of the Mech Jump Boosters, but that's going to depend upon the scenario setup, whether its all vs all, team v team, one v one, etc.

VTOL BA can't keep up and can't range, so they can be freely sniped at long range.

If it's a normal game, it obviously isn't playing, the same as all the other experimental designs that cropped up. That's why we have the anything goes games.

BTW, you might want to modify the stat block to include the 1.5t you allocated to the head turret.

Done, thanks.

sillybrit

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Re: Ironhold II Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #13 on: 15 November 2011, 23:24:27 »
VTOL BA can't keep up and can't range, so they can be freely sniped at long range.

Hence why I said careful positioning. Assuming rolling maps aren't being used, there's only so many places where you can move, which results in a finite number of positions that need to be covered by the BA. For example, assume your Mech is at the southern edge of the map & facing north, if it jumped it could reach any one of the 10 hexes to its north, while one BA Point with 6 MP VTOL 5 hexes to your north could reach any location that you could, with room to spare. For redundancy, other Points could be nearby, while others could be ready to cover the possibilties of you turning to switch your jump path, although since that takes you a turn to do, that would allow an opportunity to close. Obviously, if rolling maps are being used, I wouldn't use VTOL BA.

Using similar min-maxed experimental design methods, the BA could be a 6 MP VTOL with an IS chassis, 1 point Imp Stealth armor, twin Vibro-Claws, HMG, Firedrake & ECM. The troopers would slight Gunnery for high Anti-Mech skills, since the primary aim is to Leg Attack and Swarm, with the AM skill also adding the Ghost Target rolls. While it's almost certain that any Point targetted with the handheld Arrow is dead, between the Imp Stealth and ECM the lasers are not certain to hit, and at best will only kill one suit per hit, which would still allow that Point to attack. While any damage done with the Anti-'Mech attacks is nice, its the crits that I'm after, even giving the possibility, albeit remote, of a one turn kill. Bear in mind that if I get a life support crit on you, you'll start killing your pilot due to the use of a Torso cockpit and TSM. You could lose the strength bonus of the TSM by cooling down, but then you lose the handheld Arrow since it's too heavy for you to carry normally.

Lagrange

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Re: Ironhold II Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #14 on: 16 November 2011, 11:18:23 »
Hence why I said careful positioning. Assuming rolling maps aren't being used, there's only so many places where you can move, which results in a finite number of positions that need to be covered by the BA. For example, assume your Mech is at the southern edge of the map & facing north, if it jumped it could reach any one of the 10 hexes to its north, while one BA Point with 6 MP VTOL 5 hexes to your north could reach any location that you could, with room to spare. For redundancy, other Points could be nearby, while others could be ready to cover the possibilties of you turning to switch your jump path, although since that takes you a turn to do, that would allow an opportunity to close. Obviously, if rolling maps are being used, I wouldn't use VTOL BA.

The design you mention seems to be 500K/suit and 25BV/suit, which implies 2.5M/point and 175BV/point.

On a cost basis, that works out to 6 points.
On a BV basis, it's 18 points.
On a transport tonnage basis, that's 28 points.

The AM attack roll would be at about +6, Flak attacks at +6, and PulseTC at +1.  In a large area, it seems like the Mech could win the game of keepaway.  Plausibly it would work even if the BA were positioned freely after the Kangaroo, as they would only get a few rounds of attack with only a 1/6 chance of swarming.

Incidentally, this could lead to an amusing use of mine clearance missiles: shooting your friend's hex to clean off a swarm attack.

Using similar min-maxed experimental design methods, the BA could be a 6 MP VTOL with an IS chassis, 1 point Imp Stealth armor, twin Vibro-Claws, HMG, Firedrake & ECM. The troopers would slight Gunnery for high Anti-Mech skills, since the primary aim is to Leg Attack and Swarm, with the AM skill also adding the Ghost Target rolls. While it's almost certain that any Point targetted with the handheld Arrow is dead, between the Imp Stealth and ECM the lasers are not certain to hit, and at best will only kill one suit per hit, which would still allow that Point to attack. While any damage done with the Anti-'Mech attacks is nice, its the crits that I'm after, even giving the possibility, albeit remote, of a one turn kill. Bear in mind that if I get a life support crit on you, you'll start killing your pilot due to the use of a Torso cockpit and TSM. You could lose the strength bonus of the TSM by cooling down, but then you lose the handheld Arrow since it's too heavy for you to carry normally.

AM crits are definitely nasty, and the torso cockpit has significant disadvantages, only outweighed by the advantages... but first you have to hit.

If I might suggest, how about a swarm of LRM-5 mine clearance helicopters?  Using fractional accounting it looks like you can fit a clan SRM-4+ 1 ton of ammo + 1.75 tons armor in 6 tons for 231 K and 180 BV. 

On a cost basis that's 70 VTOLs.
On a BV basis, that's 18 VTOLs.
On a transport tonnage basis that 10 VTOLs.

In combat, movement provides no advantage to the Kangaroo, so it can simply stand and shoot (-3 for PulseTC and +3 for Flak), while the choppers can stand and shoot (-4).  The Kangaroo might eliminate 1.5/round while the VTOLs always hit.  The 18 VTOLs might get in 108 hits, causing 216 damage.  That might penetrate armor if they concentrate well, and there are two crits expected.