Author Topic: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4  (Read 222394 times)

neoancient

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #360 on: 05 December 2015, 17:06:50 »
ATB campaign questions here. I am confused about the current state of ATB and the various rules.xls I see for download.
 
Has the developement of ATB stopped?
Are the spreadsheets used and rolled manually and separate from what MeqHQ and ATB do automatically?
Are there any plans to add the functionality of the spreadsheets to ATB and MekHQ?
The spreadsheets are the official version of the AtB rules. Suggestions for rule changes are nearly always made with reference to that format. MHQ does nearly all of it for you, but it's been hard for me to find the time to work on it this year. Development on the system is still ongoing, as evidenced by Mukaikubo's post a couple weeks ago. It's the latest version of the rules with some suggestions for some new features added on the last page. Work on AtB in MHQ is limited to bugfixes until the next stable release.

Degrath

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #361 on: 05 December 2015, 23:16:55 »
Thanks for the quick reply, answered my questions.
I was basically thinking the spreadsheet ATB rules were merely a work around to keep playing and expanding while waiting for features to be implemented.

Mukaikubo

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #362 on: 07 December 2015, 00:47:46 »
Okay! Some feedback:

scJazz: Fixed the garrison/cadre reinforcements-leading-to-contract-completion thing. Changed the number of special missions per week to 2 + 1 for each point of strategy, with a max of (strategy+1) in any one field arm (so if you have strategy 0, you can do 2 missions, but only 1 each of infantry, artillery, and aerospace). This has been working out pretty well in my testing. Clarified the skill bonus for special missions.

neoancient: Fixed typo on row 79. Clarified the artillery support mission critical failure (and made it a bit rarer, since it's almost always a complete wipe in practice :( May need to fix this).

Some playtesting:

The firebase attack is pretty fun, and I like having a baby Base Attack in quite a lot.

The clan different size tables are... a bit twitchy, honestly. I don't really like them much. But I still like them better than the base of just swapping in stars for lances!

The special rules are working great. Balancing the rewards of the missions is hard, and not quite "there" yet; mostly I'm trying to make the really good ones have low chance of success. I've found myself not using artillery at all because it's so easy to just lose them outright with a forward posting under my rules as of now and in rear postings they're nearly worthless. Conventional infantry dies like flies which, well, makes sense.

The enemy force size rules work well enough. You already know if you like it just by looking at it. A few more rolls, not much more work.

I *LOVE* the way the Larger Force Rules are working, with one exception. Extraction missions are almost freaking impossible with multiple lances. You get much bigger maps, and so everyone starts farther apart, but the net effect is usually "your moronic flatbed(RL) trucks decided to try to get a backshot on a heavy mech for funsies even on the most cowardly AI settings available before you got within 30 hexes of them". I've been houseruling extractions to be one-lance only, but I haven't written that in yet. But company-on-two company standup or probe battles are super, super fun if your setup can handle them without too much slowdown.

Been playtesting with a 3055-era merc unit of 1 mech battalion (heavy company, 2 medium companies), 1 aero flight, 1 infantry company (all conventional), and 1 artillery platoon. Going pretty well; a 3 month raid contract is now a manageable number of fights. Going to be doing a planetary assault next. God, I'd forgotten how much easier the MekHQ integration made running these campaigns!  :D

scJazz

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #363 on: 07 December 2015, 13:08:21 »
Okay! Some feedback:
More Feedback

Good choice for Strategy change in Special Missions.

Artillery Special Missions needs help. Some ideas...
- Failure: Unit Driven off by Counter Battery (no damage they just had to GTFO)
- Critical Failure: Unit takes 2d4 x 5 damage for Mobile Artillery, 1d4 x 5 for Infantry Field Gun. Any additional Artillery Missions for the week are simple failures. (OPFOR has established Artillery Superiority for the week. <<< Just an idea)

Apply the above in similar fashion to all the Artillery Missions.

Modifiers to Special Missions
I always get a little twitchy when the range of penalties and bonuses are not equal. Right now a -5 is possible but bonuses only add up to +4. Maybe compare unit skills against each other? -0, -1, -2, -3 for the OPFOR, reverse it for Player. So Elite OPFOR vs Elite Player = 0.


More later...

scJazz

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #364 on: 07 December 2015, 15:48:56 »
The spreadsheets are the official version of the AtB rules. Suggestions for rule changes are nearly always made with reference to that format. MHQ does nearly all of it for you, but it's been hard for me to find the time to work on it this year. Development on the system is still ongoing, as evidenced by Mukaikubo's post a couple weeks ago. It's the latest version of the rules with some suggestions for some new features added on the last page. Work on AtB in MHQ is limited to bugfixes until the next stable release.

I was working on an Excel solution for AtB (retirement, capture, etc) when you released the MHQ version based on the 2.28 rules. It has been about 18 months now, since basically anything more than bug fixes has occurred for MHQ and 9 months give or take since Makinus posted. Should I go back and work on XL?

neoancient

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #365 on: 07 December 2015, 18:14:35 »
I was working on an Excel solution for AtB (retirement, capture, etc) when you released the MHQ version based on the 2.28 rules. It has been about 18 months now, since basically anything more than bug fixes has occurred for MHQ and 9 months give or take since Makinus posted. Should I go back and work on XL?
It's only been 17 months since AtB was added to MHQ. I certainly have done more than bugfixes in that time, including some updates to later versions of the rules. I think it's probably as close to 3.31 as it is to the 2.29 rules that I started with. What Makinus puts out determines what is considered official and enabled by default, but does not impede continued work on the system and implementation of additional options.

Arkaris

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #366 on: 09 December 2015, 10:35:51 »
I was working on an Excel solution for AtB (retirement, capture, etc) when you released the MHQ version based on the 2.28 rules. It has been about 18 months now, since basically anything more than bug fixes has occurred for MHQ and 9 months give or take since Makinus posted. Should I go back and work on XL?

You also have to remember that MekHQ is currently (or at my last update was) in a feature freeze as they try and make the next stable version of the program.  So 90% of what is coded in currently is bug fixes and some small updates to make things run better.

But as the devs have said they plan on incorporating large parts of what neoancient has done in to the core frame of MekHQ.  I eagerly await the end of the feature freeze and ralgith's plan for a persistent opFor.

CommissarK

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #367 on: 13 December 2015, 20:31:28 »
Hey guys!

New to posting here, but long time Btech enthusiast. I've run a couple MekHQ campaigns, participated in several Mekwar cycles on a variety of servers, and only just now have I seen the awesomeness that is Against-the-bot!

Introduction given, I have a couple rules questions as to the current implementation of the AtB rules in MekHQ and the RAR in 2.31. Specifically, it looks like the implementation of the MekHQ retirement rolls is based on an older version of the rules (base retirement TN = 5, seems to penalize roll based on experience without taking Dragoon Rating in to account). Would anyone be able to give me (or point me to) an explanation of what I would need to manually set as custom modifiers when doing retirement rolls?

MekHQ as implemented seems to have a very rough retirement threshhold. After completing a single contract, the 7s and 8s needed to prevent my regular and veteran mechwarriors from retiring were very scary!

neoancient

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #368 on: 13 December 2015, 22:27:56 »
Hey guys!

New to posting here, but long time Btech enthusiast. I've run a couple MekHQ campaigns, participated in several Mekwar cycles on a variety of servers, and only just now have I seen the awesomeness that is Against-the-bot!

Introduction given, I have a couple rules questions as to the current implementation of the AtB rules in MekHQ and the RAR in 2.31. Specifically, it looks like the implementation of the MekHQ retirement rolls is based on an older version of the rules (base retirement TN = 5, seems to penalize roll based on experience without taking Dragoon Rating in to account). Would anyone be able to give me (or point me to) an explanation of what I would need to manually set as custom modifiers when doing retirement rolls?

MekHQ as implemented seems to have a very rough retirement threshhold. After completing a single contract, the 7s and 8s needed to prevent my regular and veteran mechwarriors from retiring were very scary!

The AtB rules apply modifiers to the roll and any roll of 4 or less results in retirement/defection. MHQ uses standard BTech practice for target numbers by considering 5+ to be success (personnel retained) and the modifiers are applied to the target number. The result is the same, but I chose to do it this way to make it consistent with the way everything else works. It also allows use of existing code to shownhow the target is calculated. There is a setting in the campaign options that will allow you to set a universal modifier to the target number as well.

scJazz

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #369 on: 19 December 2015, 11:38:53 »
Okay! Some feedback:

I think one of my favorite features of the Big Force rules isn't even a feature. The Law of Unintended Consequences has delivered!

Previously, all my Lances were some what generic. Medium, Heavy, Assault all at or near the maximum weight limits. No Light Lances cause they just couldn't stand up to all the punishment. I didn't have any "Fire Lances", "Sniper Lances", etc. All my lances were long range mech, short range mech, and 2 generics, no matter what the weight class happened to be. Now with the additional Lances I can finally build specialized lances once again.

zulf

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #370 on: 24 December 2015, 14:37:52 »
What are the "Big Force rules" i have 2.31 and i don't see them, but then i'm totally blind to the things i'm looking for.

(seriously i searched the house for half an hour trying to find my keys only to realize they were in my pant pocket....)


As for the problem with folks leaving my work around is it's the family business so i turn it off. however my unit only grows from dependent rolls or when someone gets hitched. i make a roll every year to see if there are any kids, if so i GM a protomech pilot(cause they are small lol) and set the age to 1 and they don't become active until they are 18. the result is my unit is almost always small, under staffed, and its really hard to replace any deaths, but i can keep the skill level stable. i run a mech only unit and with some luck i can get to a decent size by the time the clans show up.

scJazz

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #371 on: 24 December 2015, 14:53:00 »
What are the "Big Force rules" i have 2.31 and i don't see them, but then i'm totally blind to the things i'm looking for.

(seriously i searched the house for half an hour trying to find my keys only to realize they were in my pant pocket....)


As for the problem with folks leaving my work around is it's the family business so i turn it off. however my unit only grows from dependent rolls or when someone gets hitched. i make a roll every year to see if there are any kids, if so i GM a protomech pilot(cause they are small lol) and set the age to 1 and they don't become active until they are 18. the result is my unit is almost always small, under staffed, and its really hard to replace any deaths, but i can keep the skill level stable. i run a mech only unit and with some luck i can get to a decent size by the time the clans show up.

The "Big Force Rules" are something that Mukaikubo wrote as a part of an expansion to existing rules you can find his initial post and the XLS here...
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=45803.msg1154755#msg1154755

Regarding the Retirement Rules... honestly, if you keep hiring new members every Monday there isn't much if any issue. Frankly, it is easier to hire Veteran XXX than training them up if you check every Monday. Elite is far more tricky but still easier than training a Green to Elite.

zulf

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #372 on: 24 December 2015, 23:33:01 »
yeah but its a bit crazy when the commander of the unit just walks away in the first year.

maybe the devs could add a way to tag a handful of people to keep them from running.

PurpleDragon

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #373 on: 25 December 2015, 00:52:42 »
yeah but its a bit crazy when the commander of the unit just walks away in the first year.

maybe the devs could add a way to tag a handful of people to keep them from running.

If you are playing AtB, you can turn the option on that allows you to adjust the TN down to 2 or less for anyone in the unit.   There is also a way to adjust the TN for everyone at the same time if you want. 
give a man a fire, keep him warm for a night. 
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Kovax

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #374 on: 28 December 2015, 13:04:25 »
If you check the box under AtB campaign options to allow modified retirement rolls, there's an overall modifier at the top of the retirement screen, and you can click the right-most box on the individual members to add or subtract from their own roll.  I usually add a -2 global modifier at the top for the first contract, and reduce that to a -1 after that.  The unit commander also gets a personal -2, and the initial officers get -1.  After 2-3 years, you can generally afford to lose the global modifier, but it's nice to have your ranking officers maintain a little bit of continuity, so I keep the personal modifiers.

scJazz

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #375 on: 28 December 2015, 13:54:20 »
yeah but its a bit crazy when the commander of the unit just walks away in the first year.

maybe the devs could add a way to tag a handful of people to keep them from running.

So click GM mode... go into Personnel-Retired and Flip him back to active. Or Modify the COs TN in Retirement... Or give the whole unit a retirement boost. There are so many ways to fix this issue that I can't see a Dev "fixing" it for a long time.

I use the 2nd option... lowering the TN for my CO and XO to a 2+ Roll.

zulf

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #376 on: 01 January 2016, 03:29:14 »
I i knew about the global mods. I didn't  realize that you could make a change for individuals. Then yeah that's the "fix" I was  talking about lol.

Southernskies

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #377 on: 08 January 2016, 22:08:11 »
Random reproduction strikes!

The *only* time I have noticed it come up:

Quote
Saturday, May 14 3025 
Fiona Marshe has conceived

Status: Active (Pregnant)

My unmarried unit leader just got assigned to the training lance for that indiscretion for the next nine months...

scJazz

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #378 on: 09 January 2016, 09:14:58 »
Fiona Marshe struck and critted for 9 months by Horny  >:D

Random

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #379 on: 09 January 2016, 20:02:23 »

My unmarried unit leader just got assigned to the training lance for that indiscretion for the next nine months...

On the bright side you could end up with a stellar new recruit.  I have one child in one of my campaigns who was born with Tactical Genius +3 in Tactics.  :)

 

 

Kilderkin

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #380 on: 12 January 2016, 02:16:31 »
Hey guys,

Just recently gotten into megamek, but not sure where to find the AtB spreadsheets to download.

Thanks,

EDIT: Think it might all be handled in mekhq. my bad :D
« Last Edit: 12 January 2016, 02:57:00 by Kilderkin »

scJazz

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #381 on: 12 January 2016, 09:36:11 »
Hey guys,

Just recently gotten into megamek, but not sure where to find the AtB spreadsheets to download.

Thanks,

EDIT: Think it might all be handled in mekhq. my bad :D

Just in case I've attached the XLS. Not everything is implemented in MHQ.

Jayof9s

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #382 on: 12 January 2016, 10:29:19 »
Just in case I've attached the XLS. Not everything is implemented in MHQ.

And based on some questions I've seen, it never hurts to know/understand the rules.

Though the same goes for Megamek and MekHQ in general. Things make a lot more sense if you understand the underlying rules of battletech...

Zellbringen

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #383 on: 12 January 2016, 14:56:00 »
I remember seeing someone where that there are rules for running a Clan force with ATB.  Anyone have a link for that information?

Thank you,

scJazz

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #384 on: 12 January 2016, 15:27:40 »
1 set of rules was proposed by Neoancient

1 set of modifications was proposed by Mukai

Neither set got very far.

Both attached

Zellbringen

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #385 on: 12 January 2016, 16:51:26 »
Thanks,  I'm looking at doing some modifications to the Nobel rules set for my own campaign.  Mainly just a good way of record keeping.  But I also wanted to look into what had been done with the Clan rules to maybe build on it.


scJazz

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #386 on: 12 January 2016, 17:17:20 »
Nobel's rules are what? Can you attach?

Zellbringen

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #387 on: 12 January 2016, 17:38:22 »
Its in the 2_31 rules above.  Its for running as a Nobel house under a IS ruler.  Its an addition to the base game like running a pirate.

ralgith

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #388 on: 12 January 2016, 20:53:42 »
Its in the 2_31 rules above.  Its for running as a Nobel house under a IS ruler.  Its an addition to the base game like running a pirate.

That would be Noble, not Nobel.

Zellbringen

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Re: Campaign Rules: Against the Bot Thread #4
« Reply #389 on: 13 January 2016, 08:24:26 »
Sorry, minor dyslexia.  I tend to switch letters around.  If spell check doesn't grab it I'm screwed.