(New) Clan Smoke Jaguar: Once More With Feeling

[tassa_kay]

My worry is that Alaric is going to end up being a negative influence on the Jaguars. He not only made them Clan again, but he conquered Terra to boot, so he's going to have a lot of cachet with them. And given how the Bears basically fell upon each other because of Alaric after nearly a century of being pretty damn solidly united to the point where it felt out-of-character for them, it worries me that his bad behaviors are going to rub off on the Jaguars, too. I certainly hope that won't be the case, but the potential is certainly there.

[Scotty]

I'd be wary of conflating Alaric with the concept of ilClan.  He sure ****** does, but it's a distinction worth keeping in mind for circumstances like the RasDom internal disputes.

[tassa_kay]

I'd be wary of conflating Alaric with the concept of ilClan.  He sure ****** does, but it's a distinction worth keeping in mind for circumstances like the RasDom internal disputes.

I don't mean to conflate them so much as I was trying to draw attention to the fact that Alaric is the catalyst for what happened in the RasDom, and because the Jaguars owe their existence as a reborn Clan to Alaric personally, his influence over them going forward could be even stronger. I'm imagining a situation like, say, the one between the Stone Lions and the Star Adders.

To be clear here, I do agree with your sentiment. But I also think that with the concept of ilClan already being somewhat nebulous as it is, and with Alaric being the one to conquer Terra and being the one calling the shots right now going forward with this new Star League, it's a little tricky separating the two right now. Who knows what kind of precedents he's gonna be setting?

I hope that made sense, lol.

[Scotty]

It did!  But let me put my meaning more clearly: regardless of the manner and intensity of the influence Alaric has over the new Jags, it is on a clock that is ticking rapidly.  The man is not immortal and seems determined to find out to what degree.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Whatever path TPTB put the Jaguars on, I just hope to see some growth and not have them simply revert to type. The Jaguars went through one hell of a crucible to get to where they are, and I don't want to see them backslide. As long as it's fun and, more importantly, consistent, I'll be a happy Jaguar fan.

Hot take here, but I hope for some reversion to type. As I see them, since their earliest days, they were the 'get-stuff-done' Clan in pursuit of being the ultimate warriors in a warrior society, regardless of who got trampled in that pursuit. As you know, Kerensky himself called the smoke jaguar "ferocity unbound, tenacity without limit," and the Clan strove to mirror this ideal in it's ways. I'll be fairly well disappointed if the (ruthless, or at least ruth-light) pursuit of martial excellence even above that to be expected of a Clan isn't a hallmark. They don't necessarily need to start shooting up cities to draw out defenders or burn down villages to make examples, but a return to the brutally direct, ends-justify-the-means mindset is a central tenet of the Smoke Jaguar experience, to my mind.

[tassa_kay]

It did!  But let me put my meaning more clearly: regardless of the manner and intensity of the influence Alaric has over the new Jags, it is on a clock that is ticking rapidly.  The man is not immortal and seems determined to find out to what degree.

Oh, I absolutely agree with that 100%... and not just with the Jaguars, either, but with everyone. Even his own Clan.

(As a sidenote, as I'm sitting here talking about precedents, my twisted sense of humor conjured up the image of Chance Vickers murdering Alaric in his sleep to stop him from doing something catastrophically stupid because he himself set the precedent that that's A-OK for her to do, lol.)

Hot take here, but I hope for some reversion to type. As I see them, since their earliest days, they were the 'get-stuff-done' Clan in pursuit of being the ultimate warriors in a warrior society, regardless of who got trampled in that pursuit. As you know, Kerensky himself called the smoke jaguar "ferocity unbound, tenacity without limit," and the Clan strove to mirror this ideal in it's ways. I'll be fairly well disappointed if the (ruthless, or at least ruth-light) pursuit of martial excellence even above that to be expected of a Clan isn't a hallmark. They don't necessarily need to start shooting up cities to draw out defenders or burn down villages to make examples, but a return to the brutally direct, ends-justify-the-means mindset is a central tenet of the Smoke Jaguar experience, to my mind.

I actually do agree with you on this, unsurprisingly. I think there's a lot to be said for the Jaguars to retain the essence of what it means to be Smoke Jaguar... while burning away the things that led to their original downfall. A blend of Jaguar and Fidelis sensibilities, to show that they've learned the lessons they needed to learn while sharpening their fangs and claws to an even finer point, as it were.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

You miss the point.  It is not that they are not pacifist, which as a label is generally laughable to try to apply to any particular faction at any given time. It's that the Clan social construct, the whole thing, crumbles in the absence of constant fighting.

It's the difference between a knife and a gun.  A knife can be used to commit violence, and some knives are better at it or more useful for it than others.  A gun is a tool whose purpose is exclusively violence.  The Clans are a gun on a societal level.

But that's the thing: they aren't crumbling

Clan societies have lived through periods of both peace and war and have endured and often thrived

Warriors would experience FOMO in exceptionally peaceful periods (which are exceptional rarity at any point in lore history) but rest of Clan societies which is more than 90% of population have been working out just fine regardless

In fact some of them have been so successful and resilient than I'm surprised that house lords haven't started specifically targeting Clans and hybrid states due to perceiving their existence as a threat to their position and status

As for guns and knives, knife is definitely a useful tool but it will not stop a bear from eating you or put a buffalo on the menu

[CJC070]

My worry is that Alaric is going to end up being a negative influence on the Jaguars. He not only made them Clan again, but he conquered Terra to boot, so he's going to have a lot of cachet with them. And given how the Bears basically fell upon each other because of Alaric after nearly a century of being pretty damn solidly united to the point where it felt out-of-character for them, it worries me that his bad behaviors are going to rub off on the Jaguars, too. I certainly hope that won't be the case, but the potential is certainly there.

If Alaric pushes them too hard I hope the Smoke Jaguars might leave.  The only reason I say this is if the Smoke Jaguars do part company it would tickle me pink if they go mercenary or join another Clan.  Preferably with these parting words “we wish to choose our own destiny” instead of the usual we follow the “strongest leader” no matter how stupid, psychotic, and/or inconceivable they are.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

Hot take here, but I hope for some reversion to type. As I see them, since their earliest days, they were the 'get-stuff-done' Clan in pursuit of being the ultimate warriors in a warrior society, regardless of who got trampled in that pursuit. As you know, Kerensky himself called the smoke jaguar "ferocity unbound, tenacity without limit," and the Clan strove to mirror this ideal in it's ways. I'll be fairly well disappointed if the (ruthless, or at least ruth-light) pursuit of martial excellence even above that to be expected of a Clan isn't a hallmark. They don't necessarily need to start shooting up cities to draw out defenders or burn down villages to make examples, but a return to the brutally direct, ends-justify-the-means mindset is a central tenet of the Smoke Jaguar experience, to my mind.

They can get stuff done without becoming primitive savages

This was something Franklin Osis himself became aware of once age and wisdom caught up with him and he left his successors simple and straightforward instructions: treat war as serious business because it's not a game and treat your civilians well because they are important

And it was perfectly in character for the Old Jags to, in their blind arrogance, completely ignore the advice of their own founding Khan

They can be people who get stuff done and avoid making stupid mistakes of their ignorant predecessors, it's all in the history books

And if they ever encounter some new conundrum they just need to ask themselves what would Paul Moon do? As in Paul Moon the eyewitness of history, restorer of the Clan and part time technician.

[Scotty]

But that's the thing: they aren't crumbling

Because there is still constant fighting happening internally in those places.  Trials of position, trials of grievance, trials of refusal, trials of possession.  All of these things happen frequently and regularly even in a Clan society that is "at peace" by relative description.  This is what I mean when I say a Clan not fighting someone else is fighting itself.  When elements Clan society experienced genuine peace in the inter-bellum Republic, it resulted in those patches of the Republic crumbling instantly to pursue conflict as soon as the opportunity presented itself.  A matter of days.

This is not a suggestion of a particular occurrence in the fiction (though the Republic is a decent example), it is an observation of the nature of Clan society.  The Warriors must War, whether on themselves or others, or the cracks form.

This is also BattleTech, so it's important to remember that "the state of not being at war" is not peace in the vast majority of occurrences.

rest of Clan societies which is more than 90% of population have been working out just fine regardless

I feel like Tamar Rising makes a pretty subtle but nonetheless cutting commentary on this point: the planets in the former Jade Falcon Occupation Zone that don't have warriors on them are marked with no colors.  There may be Clan society in those systems sure, but there is not Clan society in those systems.

[JAMES_PRYDE]

Well after all, whether Clan or IS, defensive or offensive, war is what make the (Battletech) universe go round

[rebs]

Well after all, whether Clan or IS, defensive or offensive, war is what make the (Battletech) universe go round

Intermittent periods of peace are devices for the writers and developers to make certain conflicts stand out. 

[ColBosch]

Mostly true, but besides the point.

Not to start trouble this soon after returning, but I actually wasn't responding to you, but instead to those who I thought were implying they wanted the same ol' Jaguars who got murked by the Second Star League. If the nuJags act the same way, they're not going to last long. That said, I don't think the Fidelis pulled a 180 at all. If they no longer wanted to be Jaguars, then they would've never bothered to preserve their Remembrance. They're on a redemption arc - in-universe and out - and we'll see how it pans out.

[Metallgewitter]

Considering Paul Moon is still their leader I would assume they have at least partially changed their outlook. After all, in a way, he is responsible for the fall of the original Smoke Jaguars. If he hand't ostracized Trent this much Trent might have never given all that information to Comstar which led to Task Force Serpent's strike at Huntress and the (cursory) razing of several Jaguar factories and monuments. 

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

Because there is still constant fighting happening internally in those places.  Trials of position, trials of grievance, trials of refusal, trials of possession.  All of these things happen frequently and regularly even in a Clan society that is "at peace" by relative description.  This is what I mean when I say a Clan not fighting someone else is fighting itself.  When elements Clan society experienced genuine peace in the inter-bellum Republic, it resulted in those patches of the Republic crumbling instantly to pursue conflict as soon as the opportunity presented itself.  A matter of days.

This is not a suggestion of a particular occurrence in the fiction (though the Republic is a decent example), it is an observation of the nature of Clan society.  The Warriors must War, whether on themselves or others, or the cracks form.

This is also BattleTech, so it's important to remember that "the state of not being at war" is not peace in the vast majority of occurrences.

I feel like Tamar Rising makes a pretty subtle but nonetheless cutting commentary on this point: the planets in the former Jade Falcon Occupation Zone that don't have warriors on them are marked with no colors.  There may be Clan society in those systems sure, but there is not Clan society in those systems.

Trials are logical component of militaristic meritocracy, if military acumen is the benchmark by which politicians climb the ladder in a society then appropriate process is necessary which is precisely what trials are (and it's not like they do them in the middle of the crowded street at random just for laughs)

And trials also act as safety barrier against unchecked warfare, internal or otherwise

It's little different than arranged political marriages and political assassinations among planetary dukes in order to see who will be running a planet(s) and for how many generations, difference is that Clans have streamlined the process, removed PR spin and achieved much higher average turnover rate

Problems that Clans experienced in Stone's Republic are failure of the Republic not Clans but it was hardly the only problem that particular failed state had

As for structure of Clan societies and Jade Falcon example we should keep in mind two things:

1) All Clans are vastly different to one another, different Clans have as much in common as Capellans and Lyrans do AKA superficial similarities

2) Mongol Jade Falcons were anything but regular or even weird Clan and Malvina Hazen would be giving Lincoln Osis heebie jeebies, using them as some kind of example of average Clan makes as much sense as using Amaris' Rim Worlds Republic or Liao's Capelan Confederation as example of average Inner Sphere state

Mongol Falcons under Malvina Hazen failed and crumbled but that doesn't change the fact that more competent Clan societies have survived and thrived under various different (and often more difficult) circumstances and did it in many different ways

As for color of the map it's no different than if Coordinator and entire DCMS suddenly packed up and left Draconis Combine, for a while it would definitely drain the color from the part of the map where Combine used to be

[JAMES_PRYDE]

I heard it said on here, that the Clans were created to retake Terra (and little thought was given to after it happend)

So the new ilClan Era is unique, with the fusion states of the last 50 years and more, and for those who say Clan is all about War, the new era is a stage where Clans (and writers) can say, "Well we did it, we took Terra, now what" and can do something "newish" but still good ol Battletech

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

I heard it said on here, that the Clans were created to retake Terra (and little thought was given to after it happend)

So the new ilClan Era is unique, with the fusion states of the last 50 years and more, and for those who say Clan is all about War, the new era is a stage where Clans (and writers) can say, "Well we did it, we took Terra, now what" and can do something "newish" but still good ol Battletech

Not exactly, they were created to retake Pentagon Worlds

After that they were still work in progress and remain incomplete because their creator took an arrow to the knee ER-PPC to the face

Fandom often overfocuses on Terra and ignores just how much Pentagon campaign shaped the Clans, Terra was an afterthought which appeared and ballooned over a century later and not even everywhere

Today among others we have a Clan which couldn't care less about Terra because it's only after money and another one which is happily running it's Deep Periphery Empire and always saw the whole invasion as example of folly


But you are right about the whole "took Terra, now what?" thing, it definitely got the whole thing out of the way and opened loads of narrative paths and I can't wait to see what's next around the corner

[Metallgewitter]

Not exactly, they were created to retake Pentagon Worlds

After that they were still work in progress and remain incomplete because their creator took an arrow to the knee ER-PPC to the face

Fandom often overfocuses on Terra and ignores just how much Pentagon campaign shaped the Clans, Terra was an afterthought which appeared and ballooned over a century later and not even everywhere

Today among others we have a Clan which couldn't care less about Terra because it's only after money and another one which is happily running it's Deep Periphery Empire and always saw the whole invasion as example of folly


But you are right about the whole "took Terra, now what?" thing, it definitely got the whole thing out of the way and opened loads of narrative paths and I can't wait to see what's next around the corner

Their leader saw the cracks in the supposed unity among his Clans and tried to rally them again. first step was the destruction of the Wolverines which didn't work as he intended (and God I still wish SaKhan Hallis had just crashed the McKenna's Pride into the Great Assembly instead of simply doing some bombings) and so came the Absorption: absorb or annihilate all "dirusptive" Clans until there is new unity and then keep them focused by war (or in this case take Terra back and then wage more war). Basically rinse and repeat of what the Hegemony did when they created their Star League. Nothing beats cementing of Unity then waging war.

[Church14]

Not exactly, they were created to retake Pentagon Worlds

After that they were still work in progress and remain incomplete because their creator took an arrow to the knee ER-PPC to the face

Fandom often overfocuses on Terra and ignores just how much Pentagon campaign shaped the Clans, Terra was an afterthought which appeared and ballooned over a century later and not even everywhere

Today among others we have a Clan which couldn't care less about Terra because it's only after money and another one which is happily running it's Deep Periphery Empire and always saw the whole invasion as example of folly


But you are right about the whole "took Terra, now what?" thing, it definitely got the whole thing out of the way and opened loads of narrative paths and I can't wait to see what's next around the corner

You’re answering the in universe reason for the clans. I believe James Pryde was giving the out of universe reason. Narratively, they were introduced as an alien group obsessed with Terra. Their entire culture was focused on “Take Terra and we win” while the writers I don’t think ever really had a “and then what” at the time.

In universe, yeah. Pentagon worlds.


We are in ilClan, so now we finally get to see “and then what”

[Church14]

That said, I don't think the Fidelis pulled a 180 at all. If they no longer wanted to be Jaguars, then they would've never bothered to preserve their Remembrance. They're on a redemption arc - in-universe and out - and we'll see how it pans out.

Eh. It was a complete 180. Painful, awkward, and unearned. Fidelis were introduced with - unless I’m misremembering - basically a pathological hatred of Clans Wolf and Falcon. My understanding was that was because the actions of Vlad Ward and Marthe Pryde guaranteed the death of the Jaguars.  Then their history referred the great betrayal and the road of pain. They also cremated or genetically fouled their corpses in battle to guarantee no clan ever discovered who they were. None of this points to ten wanting to go back.

And not every artifact kept is because you want to reclaim what it represents. Sometimes it’s just a reminder of how bad things were.

They referred to Stone as the great father and brokered a pact with him to save their people. By every measure, they were rabidly loyal to the republic and stone because Stone was the only person to give them a fair deal and a home.

So how did they go from that to nuJags? Well, they quit because they didn’t want to get involved in a RotS “civil war.” Redburn refusing orders wasn’t a civil war. Period. An officer refused orders. So their entire reason for backstabbing Stone and RotS at the worst possible time was complete nonsense. Then they… gleefully revealed they were Jag remnants and followed Alaric? The head of their most hated enemy.

It’s… a complete and total 180. But we are here now and I want to see whatever is done with them to be something engaging. Something we haven’t seen from the clans before because the nuJags are a unique entity. There’s opportunity for good stories from here on out in spite of how we got here.


I like the elite SpecOps clan idea because it preserves how they operated as the Fidelis. I’d like to see their moral code be a mishmash of clan and Republic ideals - however those align - to reflect where they came from. A constant vote on Alaric’s Star league council for (relative) peace and general rationality (that infuriates Alaric as he tried to get his sequel to the reunification wars going) while still being ready to stack bodies clan style the moment it’s needed.

[tassa_kay]

All Clans are vastly different to one another, different Clans have as much in common as Capellans and Lyrans do AKA superficial similarities

I think the opposite is actually true: the Clans are largely very much alike, and their differences are mostly superficial. 

Mongol Jade Falcons were anything but regular or even weird Clan and Malvina Hazen would be giving Lincoln Osis heebie jeebies, using them as some kind of example of average Clan makes as much sense as using Amaris' Rim Worlds Republic or Liao's Capelan Confederation as example of average Inner Sphere state

Other than the way Malvina Hazen conducted warfare, the Jade Falcons weren't really that much different than they were before her rise to power, and are a pretty good example of an "average" Clan in that time period.

[rebs]

Not exactly, they were created to retake Pentagon Worlds

After that they were still work in progress and remain incomplete because their creator took an arrow to the knee ER-PPC to the face

Fandom often overfocuses on Terra and ignores just how much Pentagon campaign shaped the Clans, Terra was an afterthought which appeared and ballooned over a century later and not even everywhere

Today among others we have a Clan which couldn't care less about Terra because it's only after money and another one which is happily running it's Deep Periphery Empire and always saw the whole invasion as example of folly


But you are right about the whole "took Terra, now what?" thing, it definitely got the whole thing out of the way and opened loads of narrative paths and I can't wait to see what's next around the corner

Retaking the Pentagon Worlds was their litmus test.  Nicholas Kerensky is credited with the idea that the first Clan to retake Terra would become the ilClan and their Khan would become ilKhan for life.  Provided that that is actually true and not faux history drummed up by the Clans themselves to justify perpetuating their existence. 

I see no reason why it would be untrue, but then the Clans make lots of decisions that only make sense to some of them.  Nick K started that trend. 

Blame it on the brain fever, I guess.

[tassa_kay]

Nicholas Kerensky is credited with the idea that the first Clan to retake Terra would become the ilClan and their Khan would become ilKhan for life.  Provided that that is actually true and not faux history drummed up by the Clans themselves to justify perpetuating their existence. 

It's at least somewhat true.

Nicholas did write in his journals that he intended the Clans to retake Terra, but there is uncertainty as to what he was actually saying/intending for the Clans: an alternate in-universe interpretation is that he intended for the Clans to basically Absorb each other until there was only one Clan left (the ilClan). The concept of the ilClan as understood here (first to reach Terra, etc) wasn't even a thing until Elias Crichell (and possibly Leo Showers) interpreted it that way and got the other Khans to agree on the eve of Revival.

It's been left nebulous/open to interpretation by design, I think.

[Crimson Dynamo]

They can get stuff done without becoming primitive savages

They can be people who get stuff done and avoid making stupid mistakes of their ignorant predecessors, it's all in the history books

I agree, and I believe I said as much. There are many more shades of grey between 'original CSJ 2.0' and the Fidelis. I personally am hoping for some of those original traits to be present in the reincarnation. Otherwise, what's the point of resurrecting them as a Clan when they were already so interesting as the Fidelis? The Fidelis, who in fact remain solvent and thus retaining all the character they already possess.

This was something Franklin Osis himself became aware of once age and wisdom caught up with him and he left his successors simple and straightforward instructions: treat war as serious business because it's not a game and treat your civilians well because they are important

And it was perfectly in character for the Old Jags to, in their blind arrogance, completely ignore the advice of their own founding Khan

This is Osis' "war's flavor" quote you're referencing, right? That same paragraph states that FO's respect for civilian castes was mainly for their ability to serve the Jaguar war machine. It's not a leap to see how that mindset could easily become what we saw in later years.

And if they ever encounter some new conundrum they just need to ask themselves what would Paul Moon do? As in Paul Moon the eyewitness of history, restorer of the Clan and part time technician.

Not sure if it's intended or not, but there is a certain delicious irony to this statement, especially if the Smoke Jaguar Rememberance is their main guide moving forward.

[rebs]

It's at least somewhat true.

Nicholas did write in his journals that he intended the Clans to retake Terra, but there is uncertainty as to what he was actually saying/intending for the Clans: an alternate in-universe interpretation is that he intended for the Clans to basically Absorb each other until there was only one Clan left (the ilClan). The concept of the ilClan as understood here (first to reach Terra, etc) wasn't even a thing until Elias Crichell (and possibly Leo Showers) interpreted it that way and got the other Khans to agree on the eve of Revival.

It's been left nebulous/open to interpretation by design, I think.

Indeed.  And really what I was getting at is when you bring into account things like the supposed Steel Viper version of this.  Specifically, the part about recordings of a supposed secret meeting between Nicky K and Steven Breen after the "Mad Khan" debacle. 

Yes, the Vipers are outliers and have been more or less either crazy, or during calmer times, erratic in behavior.  But it's still the earliest example of what I was getting at about Clans inventing their own meanings and sometimes even evidence regarding Nicholas' writings and/or intentions.

Fast forward to the Great Debate and the Political Century when the the Clans that would become the leaders of the Crusader movement (Namely the Falcons and oldJags, and of course you know that already, but bare with me) spin the writings of Nick K faster and faster to back up their agenda. 

I believe it was Crichell and Showers who fleshed out the goals and specifics of Operation Revival, IIRC.  As you say, Nicholas' writings were nebulous, outlines really - him sort of thinking out loud but in print so there was a lot of room for people to play with what they wanted those writings to mean.  Crichell and Showers got to fill in blanks and in so doing, added their own interpretations and goals to those centuries old texts.

This would be a better way to put what I was getting at yesterday, I think. 

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

Speaking of Nicolas' infamous journal I always wondered one thing: do we know what kind of journal was that exactly?

As in was it something that he planned to publish at some point for wider consumption or was it just his personal notebook that he used to keep track of his thoughts and never even planned for anyone to see?

That journal wasn't even discovered until like century after his death so it really doesn't strike me as something that was meant to be seen by wider public

And it would be out of character for a person like him to keep his big political plans a secret since we know that he was a type of person who wanted absolutely everyone to know what he wants done and for them to do it ASAP

So which of those two kinds of journals was his?

[rebs]

We can't know his plans any better than we do because he clearly wasn't planning to die when he did.  He most likely had more to say and never lived to tell about it.

But it's obvious he thought pretty damned high of himself and his every thought seemed to be his baby, so it may be a safe bet that he would have had these often mentioned writings published.  Probably in a more polished form, proof-read and revised with help by his fawning cult of personality members like Lisa Buhalin and Karen Nagasawa who had more literary skillsets.

And, officially published or not, they seemed to exist and are handed down through the centuries, so it's more or less just like he published them.

[tassa_kay]

And it would be out of character for a person like him to keep his big political plans a secret since we know that he was a type of person who wanted absolutely everyone to know what he wants done and for them to do it ASAP

The Wolverine Annihilation, and more specifically the reasoning behind it, says otherwise. It isn't out of character for Nicholas to play certain things close to his vest.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Brothers. Sisters. Behold! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYZwO5f9yk4

A new MechWarrior 5 expansion from a Clan Smoke Jaguar perspective set during the great crusade of REVIVAL! I only hope they shy away from both Trent and Paul Moon, there are so many other stories that could be told.

[Geg]

Brothers. Sisters. Behold! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYZwO5f9yk4

A new MechWarrior 5 expansion from a Clan Smoke Jaguar perspective set during the great crusade of REVIVAL! I only hope they shy away from both Trent and Paul Moon, there are so many other stories that could be told.

FINALLY we are getting the last invading Clan from Mechwarrior 2.