Was Ulric a traitor?

[Auren]

The charges of genocide that were leveled at him just before the Refusal War were entirely baseless, and were brought up purely because of jealous butthurt on the part of the Jade Falcons and the Smoke Jaguars for doing so much better than them during Operation Revival. His success in the early Invasion was due to a few factors.

Well, I was going to post something like this but...  ;D

[E. Icaza]

The Crusaders handed the office of warlord to their greatest political rival, one who felt the Clan Way was being perverted by the Crusaders and their cause to turn on those who they should protect.  The SLDF left the IS behind and the Clans were born apart.  They are meant to save humanity from itself, not be the catalyst in its continual slow slide away from the Star League era.  That is how Ulric Kerensky and the Wardens felt.  The Crusader philosophy took a few score years to achieve their political dominance, but they suplanted the school of thought that reigned long before it.  The Crusader cause may have died, but the Clan Way soldiers on despite of the damage it has done to itself in the IS and the Home Worlds.

As for the good guy/bad guy thing, the Crusaders lost Tukayyid, but I would not call them bad guys.  I think that idea is suggested more by the subject of this thread.  Ulric was neither, it seems to me, or both, but not simply one.  But it is inevitable that observers will call the guy who makes fifteen years of peace from about three weeks +/- of war a good guy, from an objective standpoint.

The Crusaders stuck to the same plan in the face of the enemy.  It seems they were not as good as war as they thought they were.  And that is the test of the Clans.  Trial by battle.  They could have defeated Ulric's scheme if they had performed better and defeated the Com Guards in battle.  The Smoke Jaguars were wrecked.  The Jade Falcons fought to a draw because Aidan Pryde took it upon himself to alter Falcon tactical doctrine on the spot at multiple junctures, the Bears were tenacious and I think they won a draw as well.  The Cats, Sharks and Vipers all lost... 

Not all of those Clans are Crusaders, and some would not be crusader at all for very much longer.  Ulric had no hand in any of these failures.  And critical these failures were to the extreme.

Return to the Inner Sphere is impossible for us. Our heritage and our convictions are different from those we left behind. The greed of the five Great Houses and the Council Lords is a disease that can only be burned away by the passing of decades, even centuries. And though the fighting may seem to slow, or even cease, it will erupt again as long as there are powerful men to covet one another's wealth. We shall live apart, conserving all the good of the Star League and ridding ourselves of the bad, so that when we return — and return we shall — our shining moral character will be as much our shield as our BattleMechs and fighters.

There's the Hidden Hope passage from GO 137.  It mentions that the SLDF-In-Exile is separating itself from the greed of the Great Houses and mentions that they will return after they've purged themselves and the IS has purged itself after numerous destructive wars.  As a Crusader, the impression that I get from the Great Father's words is that the SLDF will return and show the blasted and struggling people of the IS the proper way to live.  Just like with KLONDIKE, there will be resistance, but the SLDF will prevail because of its superior morality as much as their superior technology.

I can even see the Warden pov of "we have to protect them from themselves" in there.  What I've never understood is how are the Wardens protecting the IS by giving them access to even more destructive weapons (i.e ClanTech) and the time to put them into service to prolong an invasion by the people who are supposed to be coming to help them?  Ulric's truce, the defection of the WiE and even the Diamond Shark/Fox willingness to sell ClanTech to the IS has only doomed the IS to the endless cycle of even more destructive wars that the Great Father was trying initially to prevent when he took the SLDF into exile.

While I do and will always think that REVIVAL happened a century or so too early, so the Crusaders are definitely not blameless, Ulric and the many other Warden's selfish actions have doomed both the Clans and the IS to destruction.

[Warpimp]

What I've never understood is how are the Wardens protecting the IS by giving them access to even more destructive weapons (i.e ClanTech) and the time to put them into service to prolong an invasion by the people who are supposed to be coming to help them?  Ulric's truce, the defection of the WiE and even the Diamond Shark/Fox willingness to sell ClanTech to the IS has only doomed the IS to the endless cycle of even more destructive wars that the Great Father was trying initially to prevent when he took the SLDF into exile.

Very well put. Whatever high mindedness Ulric was purporting, his real end-state wasn't peace, just a more even-sided war.

[rebs]

Return to the Inner Sphere is impossible for us. Our heritage and our convictions are different from those we left behind. The greed of the five Great Houses and the Council Lords is a disease that can only be burned away by the passing of decades, even centuries. And though the fighting may seem to slow, or even cease, it will erupt again as long as there are powerful men to covet one another's wealth. We shall live apart, conserving all the good of the Star League and ridding ourselves of the bad, so that when we return — and return we shall — our shining moral character will be as much our shield as our BattleMechs and fighters.

There's the Hidden Hope passage from GO 137.  It mentions that the SLDF-In-Exile is separating itself from the greed of the Great Houses and mentions that they will return after they've purged themselves and the IS has purged itself after numerous destructive wars.  As a Crusader, the impression that I get from the Great Father's words is that the SLDF will return and show the blasted and struggling people of the IS the proper way to live.  Just like with KLONDIKE, there will be resistance, but the SLDF will prevail because of its superior morality as much as their superior technology.

I can even see the Warden pov of "we have to protect them from themselves" in there.  What I've never understood is how are the Wardens protecting the IS by giving them access to even more destructive weapons (i.e ClanTech) and the time to put them into service to prolong an invasion by the people who are supposed to be coming to help them?  Ulric's truce, the defection of the WiE and even the Diamond Shark/Fox willingness to sell ClanTech to the IS has only doomed the IS to the endless cycle of even more destructive wars that the Great Father was trying initially to prevent when he took the SLDF into exile.

While I do and will always think that REVIVAL happened a century or so too early, so the Crusaders are definitely not blameless, Ulric and the many other Warden's selfish actions have doomed both the Clans and the IS to destruction.

And while we both represent camps that are opposed on this for many good reasons, I am also led to a more neutral view of the IlKhan, he acted very politically.  He was a product of his time, he had to combat Leo Showers who was also politically inclined and ambitious and became an ilKhan who enacted his political vision.  Elias Crichell was also a foil in green.  But most of the warriors they surrounded their selves with, their saKhans and favorite Star Colonels and Galaxy Commanders and such, were blinded by ambition and pride.  The Crusader leadership could not make tactical and strategic changes, they would not suck it up enough to break their bids like a warrior to bring in more galaxies to work with in the drive to the center of the Inner Sphere, etc...  Ulric Kerensky was at fault for none of that.

But I think most of all, Ulric cannot be said to have betrayed an ideal that had shifted and reversed in the political winds of the time.  He held to his ideas as selfishly as the crusaders took the Clans back to the Inner Sphere to conquer it.  That was not what Aleksandr Kerensky promised, and the text does not indicate that Ulric Kerensky believed that either, obviously.  :)    Ulric was not a traitor the the Way of the Clans, regardless of whatever else he was.

[rebs]

Very well put. Whatever high mindedness Ulric was purporting, his real end-state wasn't peace, just a more even-sided war.

High-mindedness?  Or mitigating a trainwreck beyond his control trying to save the jokers from their selves-ness?   O:-) 

And in the process save the Way of the Clans from the oblivion of being destroyed once they cleverly surround their cute little toumans in a big, fuzzy Spheroid blanket.

Ulric Kerensky was not a traitor. 


(Just having fun, but he did save them from their selves in his opinion.  I'm bowing out of the debate for now, but I also respect the opposing viewpoints for virtue of also being firmly rooted in the body of work that is BT lore  O0 )

[solmanian]

If the clans weren't even able to take one miserable planet from C*, how did they expect to take the IS? Honorably, no less? It's no wonder a lot of people question whether the combined could really take Terra... The clans just aren't equipped for that kind of total war. Perhaps if everyone did the right thing and mimicked the Wolves approach (like the bears did later in the invasion), of "smart" warfare, than the clans had a chance. But the Wolves couldn't be expected to drag the crusaders kicking and screaming to victory...

[Warpimp]

If the clans weren't even able to take one miserable planet from C*, how did they expect to take the IS? Honorably, no less? It's no wonder a lot of people question whether the combined could really take Terra... The clans just aren't equipped for that kind of total war. Perhaps if everyone did the right thing and mimicked the Wolves approach (like the bears did later in the invasion), of "smart" warfare, than the clans had a chance. But the Wolves couldn't be expected to drag the crusaders kicking and screaming to victory...

But I think that is part of the reason people say Ulric betrayed the Clans, though. They very well could have won Tukayyid had Ulric not manipulated events and people to ensure only the Wolves would be successful.

As for Ulric's advice to the other Clans on Tukayyid: he was a master manipulator. Ulric knew there was no better way to ensure the other Clans would do one thing was for him to tell them to do the opposite. Had he wanted a victory he could have gotten them to plan better. But his advice was nothing more than a chance for him to say "I told you so."

Also, whether or not Ulric was a traitor isn't dependant on whether or not any other Khan is also treasonous or whether or not anyone else was making good decisions. Ulrics actions very much show a violation of trust or confidence that was placed on him and his position. I'm not saying it was a bright idea by the crusaders to put him there, though.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Ulric can be right and still be a traitor. The overall morality of what he did isn't the question. Did he, in doing the right thing, betray his people in favor of those of the Inner Sphere? Did he purposefully do things that lead to greater death on his side of the conflict? I think the Refusal was a good example of how he did that as has been discussed in detail.  And really, he even betrayed his own faction in his Clan. The Wolves-in-Exile have no real future besides fighting Jade Falcon for all eternity. For what? To protect House Steiner, who the Wolves had in the early part of the decade fought and died to take planets from? What if the Clans had won Tukayyid? Presumably a trial of possession would have to be fought to decide which Clan would be ilClan. What would that I have looked like? My opinion is that it would have made the Refusal War look mild by comparison.

Seems to me that "no" is the obvious answer to the first question.  Ulric always stayed true to the principles of his people and worked within the system.  As for the second, I'm not sure it's the right question to ask.  In the Clans, even the most basic of disputes can be settled by bloodshed, so minimizing bloodshed probably isn't something they're ever consciously intending.  You yourself point out that victory on Tukayyid likely would have led to more bloodshed than the Refusal War.  Likewise if they'd claimed Terra by more straightforward invasion, the death and destruction would've been massive.  "Avoiding bloodshed" is only rarely any sort of priority among clan warriors.

[Arkansas Warrior]

But I think that is part of the reason people say Ulric betrayed the Clans, though. They very well could have won Tukayyid had Ulric not manipulated events and people to ensure only the Wolves would be successful.

As for Ulric's advice to the other Clans on Tukayyid: he was a master manipulator. Ulric knew there was no better way to ensure the other Clans would do one thing was for him to tell them to do the opposite. Had he wanted a victory he could have gotten them to plan better. But his advice was nothing more than a chance for him to say "I told you so."

Also, whether or not Ulric was a traitor isn't dependant on whether or not any other Khan is also treasonous or whether or not anyone else was making good decisions. Ulrics actions very much show a violation of trust or confidence that was placed on him and his position. I'm not saying it was a bright idea by the crusaders to put him there, though.

That's a catch-22 though.  If he gives good advice and they don't listen he's doing it intentionally because he's a manipulator.  If he gives bad advice, his opponents would claim that he's trying to set them up for failure.  There's no way you'd see anything he does as good leadership.

[solmanian]

But I think that is part of the reason people say Ulric betrayed the Clans, though. They very well could have won Tukayyid had Ulric not manipulated events and people to ensure only the Wolves would be successful.

Hmm, what? Ulric simply allowed the other clans do their thing; which is to be vainglorious idiots. Do you think if Showers would've survived, he would've:

A. Declined Tukayyid? A chance to win Terra in an honorable trial-style combat? I think not.

B. Could've changed the outcome of the battles, with the wolves yet again triumphing? Do you honestly think that any of the khans were in any position to advocate "smart" warfare? All he would've done is dig that hole even deeper, making Tukayyid into a bigger disaster manipulating events so all other clans would fare even worse than the Jaguars.

Also, whether or not Ulric was a traitor isn't dependant on whether or not any other Khan is also treasonous or whether or not anyone else was making good decisions.

What? Of course it... If Ulric behavior is par the course of his predecessors, he can't be signaled out as "treasonous" while the rest are vindicated by virtue of being crusaders...

A warden ilkhan, promoting a warden agenda. As ilkhan, Ulric  could've done a lot of terrible things to screw the clans over, including mailing every plan and move they do to Focht nd the rest of the IS leaders to counter. But he didn't, because Ulric always worked within his system. It's how he lived, and it's how he died with the flacons forced to break Zell because they could never have beat him in honorable combat. I think that the real source of falcon butthurt here; for all their talks of honor and tradition, they couldn't beat him without resorting to the most cowardly and treacherous tactics employed in a trial since the founder died. The falcons started walking down a path of dezgra that day that led to Malvina... The falcons may have been quick to claim victory, but in truth the "real" Jade falcon clan died that day.

[E. Icaza]

A warden ilkhan, promoting a warden agenda. As ilkhan, Ulric  could've done a lot of terrible things to screw the clans over, including mailing every plan and move they do to Focht nd the rest of the IS leaders to counter. But he didn't, because Ulric always worked within his system. It's how he lived, and it's how he died with the flacons forced to break Zell because they could never have beat him in honorable combat. I think that the real source of falcon butthurt here; for all their talks of honor and tradition, they couldn't beat him without resorting to the most cowardly and treacherous tactics employed in a trial since the founder died. The falcons started walking down a path of dezgra that day that led to Malvina... The falcons may have been quick to claim victory, but in truth the "real" Jade falcon clan died that day.

No Falcon butthurt here.  Ulric died as he lived...treacherously.  Considering that the Wolves broke Zell constantly during the Refusal War, I'd have declared him dezgra and killed him in orbit if I'd had the option.  Failing that, an artiller/LRM strike works just as well.  Crichell and Chistu were pretty crappy examples of Clanners too, but then no Crusader was subjected to Stackpole's writing and came out looking good. 

That said, while I may consider him a traitor, I'd respect Ulric's prowess as a warrior enough to kill him as expediently as possible too.  Being a traitor doesn't make him incompetent.

[Archangel]

But I think that is part of the reason people say Ulric betrayed the Clans, though. They very well could have won Tukayyid had Ulric not manipulated events and people to ensure only the Wolves would be successful.

He really didn't need to manipulate anybody with regards to Tukayyid.  The jealousy and hatred of the other Clans and their desire to become ilClan led them down the path of destruction all on their own.

As for Ulric's advice to the other Clans on Tukayyid: he was a master manipulator. Ulric knew there was no better way to ensure the other Clans would do one thing was for him to tell them to do the opposite. Had he wanted a victory he could have gotten them to plan better. But his advice was nothing more than a chance for him to say "I told you so."

So if Ulric had told the other Clans that his Clan should go last, the other Clans would have conspired to make them go first?  And the Smoke Jaguars wouldn't have underbid as drastically as they did?

The Ghost Bears and, surprisingly enough, the Jade Falcons did heed some of his advice.

[Archangel]

Hmm, what? Ulric simply allowed the other clans do their thing; which is to be vainglorious idiots. Do you think if Showers would've survived, he would've:

A. Declined Tukayyid? A chance to win Terra in an honorable trial-style combat? I think not.

More importantly decline a chance to catch up to Clan Wolf?

[rebs]

Ulric's primary mode of "manipulation" was going on well before the Crusaders elected him ilKhan.  It was as simple as this: All practices of Clan Wolf were to be eschewed, derided and avoided.  In the crusader's eyes, they and all the rest of the wardens were right next door to dezgra for their attitude about invading the IS.  They saw no value in their input, like when they ignored Dragoon reports, holding them and their actions in the IS to be the outward sign of Clan Wolf's weakness.  If the Crusaders were that foolish as to cling to dogma over critical thought, then Ulric really can't be called a master manipulator. 

Leo Showers secretly interrogated the Comstar crew of Outbound Light for weeks or months before bringing them to the attention of the  grand council.  They did what they wished to engineer the invasion, knowing what it was that they had before approaching the council.  Ulric Kerensky was never any more out of line than that, outright breaking of Clan law to get his way politically. 

If Leo Showers gets a pass, Ulric cannot be viewed as a traitor.

The Falcons and Jags had their own ways and traditions, and they stuck to those as best they could.  The Jags are now long dead, and the Falcon's traditions have been plucked away and replaced by new ones in the IS.  So much for the Crusader ideal.  Ulric has yet to be proven wrong about his assertions of how the Clans would change, the deeper they penetrate the Inner Sphere.   

(I'm back, can't resist...)

[solmanian]

If Leo Showers gets a pass, Ulric cannot be viewed as a traitor.

+1 QFT

[misterpants]

EDIT: could a mod delete this, thanks.

[Rtifs]

Yes he was.

There was nothing wrong with Tukayyid though.  It was a trial of possession for Terra.  Which meant that  a clan victory would result in an Ilclan.  The only way to determine who that would be is for each clan to operate independently. 

He was a traitor because he viewed the clans as the bad guys and the enemy as the good guys and wanted to help the enemy overcome his own civilization.  Everything he did was within the letter of the law, but he was trying to help the enemy.  The refusal war is where this is really revealed.  He was willing to blow up his own clan – any and all clans really – and effectively have the survivors declare independence from the Grand Council (sound familiar to anyone?).  I'm glad I wasn't one of his underlings.

No Falcon butthurt here.  Ulric died as he lived...treacherously.  Considering that the Wolves broke Zell constantly during the Refusal War, I'd have declared him dezgra and killed him in orbit if I'd had the option.  Failing that, an artiller/LRM strike works just as well.  Crichell and Chistu were pretty crappy examples of Clanners too, but then no Crusader was subjected to Stackpole's writing and came out looking good. 

That said, while I may consider him a traitor, I'd respect Ulric's prowess as a warrior enough to kill him as expediently as possible too.  Being a traitor doesn't make him incompetent.

Seconded

[solmanian]

He was a traitor because he viewed the clans as the bad guys and the enemy as the good guys and wanted to help the enemy overcome his own civilization.

Nope. Just wrong. If anything he viewed the crusaders as the "bad guys" (a feeling that was reciprocated), and tried to save/redeem the clans from their control, including the clans labeled as "crusaders". He believed the war was corrupting the clans, and would lead to their destruction, if not militarily than culturally. You can see it with the spheroid clans today: During the invasion the ratio between trueborn and freebirth warriors was in average about 1:4; the freebirth outnumbered the trueborn, but were mostly delegated to second-line and garrison clusters. By the dark age, that margin grows substantially, you have entire clusters of spheroid freebriths. The spheroid clans struggle to keep their cultural heritage, not just fighting their enemies. As they assimilate more and more spheroid natives, they also in turn get assimilated. The homeworlds population was ~50 million IIRC; that smaller than pretty much any major IS planets. The clans found themselves administering billions of people, and you can't simply shoot anyone that disagrees with you (though the falcons sure try...).

Everything he did was within the letter of the law, but he was trying to help the enemy.

If he everything he did was legal, he can't be a traitor...

Point is, despite what certain falcon fanboys claiming, having a differing political outlook, doesn't make one a traitor. And you shouldn't ask a wolf to be a sheep; you can try dressing him up in fluffy wool and put him with the rest of the herd, but don't be surprised when hilarity, oh so bloody hilarity, ensues.

The refusal war is where this is really revealed.  He was willing to blow up his own clan – any and all clans really – and effectively have the survivors declare independence from the Grand Council (sound familiar to anyone?).

Despite their delusional claims, Clan Jade Falcon is not "any and all clans"; despite trying to rename all the other clans "jade bears" and "jade horses" and the like.

He was willing to put a significant part of his touman (the most rebellious part) on the line, in order to save the clans.
As for declaring independence from the grand council? The Wolves-in-exile simply did it before it was cool, eventually followed by all other spheroid clans, falcons included...

[Arkansas Warrior]

Nope. Just wrong. If anything he viewed the crusaders as the "bad guys" (a feeling that was reciprocated), and tried to save/redeem the clans from their control, including the clans labeled as "crusaders". He believed the war was corrupting the clans, and would lead to their destruction, if not militarily than culturally. You can see it with the spheroid clans today: During the invasion the ratio between trueborn and freebirth warriors was in average about 1:4; the freebirth outnumbered the trueborn, but were mostly delegated to second-line and garrison clusters. By the dark age, that margin grows substantially, you have entire clusters of spheroid freebriths. The spheroid clans struggle to keep their cultural heritage, not just fighting their enemies. As they assimilate more and more spheroid natives, they also in turn get assimilated. 1)The homeworlds population was ~50 million IIRC; that smaller than pretty much any major IS planets. The clans found themselves administering billions of people, and you can't simply shoot anyone that disagrees with you (though the falcons sure try...).
2)If he everything he did was legal, he can't be a traitor...

1)  I think you maybe thinking total Warrior caste or trueborn population.  The Homeworlds as a whole was more like 1.2 Billion.  Still less than a whole lot of IS worlds though.


2)  A good point.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Yes he was.

There was nothing wrong with Tukayyid though.  It was a trial of possession for Terra.  Which meant that  a clan victory would result in an Ilclan.  The only way to determine who that would be is for each clan to operate independently. 

He was a traitor because he viewed the clans as the bad guys and the enemy as the good guys and wanted to help the enemy overcome his own civilization.  Everything he did was within the letter of the law, but he was trying to help the enemy.  The refusal war is where this is really revealed.  He was willing to blow up his own clan – any and all clans really – and effectively have the survivors declare independence from the Grand Council (sound familiar to anyone?).  I'm glad I wasn't one of his underlings.
Seconded

Nope, he viewed the Wardens as the good guys and the Crusaders as the bad guys.  The people of the IS were essentially held in contempt by both sides of the clan ideological divide; the Crusaders wanted to conquer and rule them, the Wardens wanted to protect them (because, y'know, dirty spheroid freebirths are too weak to protect themselves).

[Archangel]

I don't believe that Ulric viewed the Wardens and Crusaders in terms of good and bad.  More likely he viewed the Crusaders as misguided.  However, there likely were individual Crusaders (and Wardens) that he viewed as bad or evil, such as Leo Showers or Galaxy Commander Cordera Perez.

[Arkaris]

Through these posts there are several very clear points that are entirely missed.

1) Clans do not think of the Clans as a whole, they think of their clan first.  Personal glory, the glory of your unit, and the glory of your clan come before -all- else and that is beat in to your head from Sibko, it doesn't suddenly disappear the day you become ilKhan.  And for personal glory I would put forth that you cannot name one person who could compare to Ulric.  The success of the Wolves under his leadership will be a beacon to all the Clans for all time, no matter how much the clans want to try and stomp it out.  Even Alric's victory is based on Ulric's success, you cannot have Alric without first having Ulric.

2) ilKhan position is being misunderstood by many posters.  The ilKhan is a best a figurehead position (kind of like the VP in America) with little real power.  The best thing the ilKhan can do is offer advice.  If an ilKhan chooses to wait for someone to come to him for advice and not injecting advice on people who do not ask for it, that is totally their right to do.  How many of us here here have jobs, and choose not to offer advice to their co-workers or bosses (not out of spite but simply because it takes more effort and they might not listen to you anyway)?  Does that automatically make us traitors to our job?  Neither does it to Ulric and his post.  Everything in Clan life is warfare.  Every decision by the council is then cemented by a duel or a fight.  And with Ulric's position I am sure more of the things he wanted done, by the duel were lost just by sheer numbers.  Which only forces the Crusaders to lie in the bed they make.

3) The wolves were given the center corridor not because the FRR were an easy target, at the start of the invasion the clans did not know about the creation of the FRR.  The wolves were given the center corridor because the Jags and the Falcons believed they could outpace the Wolves and then suffocate their expansion.  While the Jags and Falcons could spread out, the Wolves would have to fight through CGB, CJF, and CSJ for any expansion.  This was the plan by Leo Showers.  However, Ulric outpaced all the other clans and actually cut off CGB's expansion causing them to bleed in to CSJ's corridor. 

[Maingunnery]

1) Clans do not think of the Clans as a whole, they think of their clan first.  Personal glory, the glory of your unit, and the glory of your clan come before -all- else and that is beat in to your head from Sibko

2) ilKhan position is being misunderstood by many posters.  The ilKhan is a best a figurehead position (kind of like the VP in America) with little real power.  The best thing the ilKhan can do is offer advice.

These two positions can't be combined. Yes the Clans compete heavily with each-other, this also means that the system requires an unifying force, and that is the position of the IlKhan. If the position of IlKhan is subverted, then the system fails.

[solmanian]

These two positions can't be combined.

That is a very subjective position. Maybe their combination isn't pretty and adds up to a perfect society; but that's life.

Yes the Clans compete heavily with each-other, this also means that the system requires an unifying force, and that is the position of the IlKhan. If the position of IlKhan is subverted, then the system fails.

Maybe the clans could use a unifying force. Their competitiveness means they rarely acknowledge one; ask the Blood Spirits how that worked for them. It's not a coincidence that the clan that was suppose to represent the clans unity, and inspiration to work together, became the most isolated.

Since the death of Alexander Kerensky, the clans haven't been unified on any subject. Even launching operation REVIVAL was more like herding cats than actually coordinating together; and that was long before Ulric became ilKhan. If the position of ilKhan was so necessary, they wouldn't have dismissed it, for the majority of their history.

Clans working together in unison, coordinating together to achieve objectives? That's not what the clans are about. It didn't work on Klondike 90% of the time, and it's been downhill ever since. Just ask Absalom Truscott, AK's mentor and architect of operation Klondike, how that worked out. Hint: he died in the first hours of the invasion, when the Bears decided clearing the LZ for the other clans (their assigned objective) was a waste of their time and decided to single handedly assault the capital without telling anyone.

The clans aren't a unified force. Even a single clan is barely a unified force, with their commanders and soldiers constantly competing against eachother. In the clans, mostly, it's arguably better to fight against all odds, fail spectacularly and go out like a boss, than winning consistently through numerical advantages and heavy use of support. The clan will appreciate the wins, but the fool that died in a blaze of glory taking three-four enemies with him is the one whose legacy will be passed on. It's this search for a good and worthy death, is what makes them bad asses tactically, but failure in grand strategy; the spheroid enemy is all to happy to give them glorious deaths, as long as the spheroid forces achieve their objectives...

[Maingunnery]

That is a very subjective position. Maybe their combination isn't pretty and adds up to a perfect society; but that's life.

The Clans need the position of IlKhan as much as our societies need police officers.  ;)

Maybe the clans could use a unifying force. Their competitiveness means they rarely acknowledge one; ask the Blood Spirits how that worked for them. It's not a coincidence that the clan that was suppose to represent the clans unity, and inspiration to work together, became the most isolated.

They went against the grain with their softness.

Since the death of Alexander Kerensky, the clans haven't been unified on any subject. Even launching operation REVIVAL was more like herding cats than actually coordinating together; and that was long before Ulric became ilKhan. If the position of ilKhan was so necessary, they wouldn't have dismissed it, for the majority of their history.

Because there wasn't a need for them to work together for the majority of their history.

Clans working together in unison, coordinating together to achieve objectives? That's not what the clans are about. It didn't work on Klondike 90% of the time, and it's been downhill ever since.

The 90% number is pretty much BS. But either way, any operation would have ended a lot worse without an IlKhan.

[Arkaris]

These two positions can't be combined. Yes the Clans compete heavily with each-other, this also means that the system requires an unifying force, and that is the position of the IlKhan. If the position of IlKhan is subverted, then the system fails.

Because the system fails, proves that the position of ilKhan is subverted at all times. 

[solmanian]

The Clans need the position of IlKhan as much as our societies need police officers.  ;)

The various clan watches, are the police officers of the clans. And clan laws are only for the civies; for warriors: you can do whatever you want, break any rule, as long as you got the power to beat up anyone that would say otherwise (i.e. ToR/ToG). The Khans are the leader of nations, like presidents and prime ministers; but the ilKhan? He's like the chairman of the UN; he can frown, threaten, but only has power as long as someone listens to him. In the clans, the ilKhan's powerbase is his own clan. Ulric can't tell the bears "Yo dawg, I ordered the falcons to do something, and they laughed in my face! Go kick their ass!". He has to use his own clan as enforcers; and with the crusader block, it's a waste of time trying to. Ulric (and any ilKhan, really) wasn't going to put wolves life on the line, to impose his will on a hostile, crusader clan, just so that said clan would be more successful; that would be silly. Clanners would much rather let other clans to eat what they're cooking, and exploit the opportunities that open when they fail spectacularly.

Expecting the ilKhan to be some altruistic idealistic fanatic, that would hurt his own clan to help their enemies "in the name of the greater good", is unrealistic. Simply give me one example of an ilKhan that jeopardized the interests of his own clan, to help other clans.

Because there wasn't a need for them to work together for the majority of their history.

I think working together is against their culture. It's not important if the objectives are met, as long as you give a good accounting of yourself. From the individual warrior POV, even if the operation is a complete failure, an individual warrior can still be considered "successful". In the IS it's almost the opposite, as was said "victory needs no excuses, defeat deserves none".

The 90% number is pretty much BS. But either way, any operation would have ended a lot worse without an IlKhan.

It proved that an ilKhan can mostly point a clan at a target, and allow them to complete it "their way"; trying to micromanage them is folly, and even if they went completely against your orders, there's nothing you can do, as long as they were successful in whatever it is they chose to actually do. St. Nick was pissed off at the Jaguars for massacring civilians; but there was only so much he could do, because they were getting shit done.

[Vehrec]

Is there any source that states what judicial and executive powers the Ilkhan actually has over the clans?  Can he forbid trials of grievance or possession between warriors and Clans?  Can she overrule the Clan Council in the case of a simple majority?  Can they remove a Khan from office or issue sanctions against them when they disobey orders, or is the only recourse a trial of grievance?  What are the powers of the Ilkhan?  Sarna only says that he may not interfere with internal affairs-but internal affairs are an obvious source of trouble for any Ilkhan, because they can easily turn external!  So what the heck are they supposed to do?  In the absence of any strong material about the power of the Ilkhan, we must assujme that their actual powers are similiar to those of a Khan-but to some degree, more hamstrung by politics and less able to enforce their will, lest they face a Trial of Refusal that may well cost them their life and station.

[solmanian]

Like any clan warrior, the ilKhan authority expands as far as he can get away with. As I said, his power to enforce his decrees stem from his own clan, and his power block.

In Ulric's case, the warden power block was practically non-existent, and wasting his wolves against the 16 crusader clans would be pointless. So he did what he could get away with, mostly convincing the crusaders that they should support his proposals.

There'd be no Tukayyid, if the crusaders didn't wish there to be. But it was exactly what they wanted, what they fantasized about. Fighting a relatively small, and inexperienced, chunk of the IS military forces in honorable trial-like war for the most important objective in their operation, shaving years off their campaign.

He activated the reserve clans, but that was allowed because the homies were heavily supporting it, for a chance to join the invasion, and thinning out their rivals in the homeworlds.

I sincerely doubt there is any way for the ilKhan, or the grand council, to depose a Khan. If there was, they'd got rid of Ulric a long time ago (and they sure tried...)

[Arkansas Warrior]

3) The wolves were given the center corridor not because the FRR were an easy target, at the start of the invasion the clans did not know about the creation of the FRR.  The wolves were given the center corridor because the Jags and the Falcons believed they could outpace the Wolves and then suffocate their expansion.  While the Jags and Falcons could spread out, the Wolves would have to fight through CGB, CJF, and CSJ for any expansion.  This was the plan by Leo Showers.  However, Ulric outpaced all the other clans and actually cut off CGB's expansion causing them to bleed in to CSJ's corridor.

I'm pretty sure I've read before that the Clans did know of the FRR, and assigned that corridor to the Wolves because defeating an unknown minor power was seen as less glorious that fighting one of the Great Houses.