Touman sizes

[cmerwin]

I was re-reading a passage in Falcon Rising in which saKhan Clees summons a Star Colonel she had never met before, which seemed odd to me, especially if you translate unit sizes to contemporary military structures.

But then that got me wondering about how big an entire touman is, not just the front line or garrison Galaxies, but all units, homeworld, solahma, garrison, etc.

We know that units closer to the beginning of the Greek alphabet have higher prestige, which is why most early toumans list Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta as their frontlines. But then when you see IS Clans relocate, you start seeing (CNC, CGB, CWIE) Galaxies towards the end of the alphabet like Xi, Psi, Omega, not to mention non-standard named Galaxies: Polar Galaxy, etc.

As far as I can think of, there is no rigorous cannon way to guess the size of a whole touman, but if we had to speculate, what's the average touman size in Galaxies? 10-12? Higher?

[jklantern]

God, you're gonna make me dig out FM: CC and WC aren't you?   ;D

So, looking at those books, which list the sizes of Frontline and Garrison Galaxies (but doesn't list solahma infantry PBIs to the best of my knowledge), you've got a WIDE range of sizes.  At that time, the larger Clans (Ghost Bears, Falcons, Star Adders, Steel Vipers wait really?) have around 45-50 clusters a piece.  The smaller Clans (Wolves, Cobras, Blood Spirits, Scorpions) have closer to 20, 25.  It pretty much runs the gamut there.

[wantec]

I was re-reading a passage in Falcon Rising in which saKhan Clees summons a Star Colonel she had never met before, which seemed odd to me, especially if you translate unit sizes to contemporary military structures.

But then that got me wondering about how big an entire touman is, not just the front line or garrison Galaxies, but all units, homeworld, solahma, garrison, etc.

We know that units closer to the beginning of the Greek alphabet have higher prestige, which is why most early toumans list Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta as their frontlines. But then when you see IS Clans relocate, you start seeing (CNC, CGB, CWIE) Galaxies towards the end of the alphabet like Xi, Psi, Omega, not to mention non-standard named Galaxies: Polar Galaxy, etc.

As far as I can think of, there is no rigorous cannon way to guess the size of a whole touman, but if we had to speculate, what's the average touman size in Galaxies? 10-12? Higher?

So the size of toumans (in clusters) is going to vary over the years. And going back to what started it, it's quite probable if the Star Colonel is new to the position that the saKhan may not have met that person before.

[Metallgewitter]

Depnds on the Clan. those with vast holdings need bigger toumans to defend said holdings against other Clans. Plus they probably have more resources to maintain said touman. The best exampole would be the Star Adders who are THE Homeworld Clan and per FM 3067 have 13 Galaxies but 7 of them are provisional Galaxies And on the other spectrum we have the Ravens who have a large fleet but at the cost of weak ground forces (only 7 Galaxies). It seems most Clans have at least 6-7 Galaxies with the exception of Clan Fire Mandrill who have only 5 but each of those is in essence a miniature Clan) Heck even the 1 planet Blood Spirits have 7 Galaxies as of 3067

[cmerwin]

So the size of toumans (in clusters) is going to vary over the years. And going back to what started it, it's quite probable if the Star Colonel is new to the position that the saKhan may not have met that person before.

Agreed, especially among the Falcons on their homeworld, even post-Tukayyid. The reaction tracks relative to contemporary units too - not every high ranking General officer is going to know every Colonel, except in name only. It did get me to wondering about the overall size of a touman in 3050 though.

[cmerwin]

It seems most Clans have at least 6-7 Galaxies with the exception of Clan Fire Mandrill who have only 5 but each of those is in essence a miniature Clan) Heck even the 1 planet Blood Spirits have 7 Galaxies as of 3067

Absolutely. It seems like the more holdings, the more garrison and provisional Galaxies, and the bigger the Clan, the more front line. My guess would be that 6 Galaxies is probably the minimum that a Clan would have, totaling all of its military assets, whereas Invasion era Clans would probably average 10+ in total.

[Vition2]

So I have info that a lot of people probably aren't going to particularly like.  We have numbers for roughly how much of the clan population are warriors: 0.01% (Warriors of Kerensky).  This turns into about 112,000 based on the clan world population information given to us in FM: Updates (or FM 3067).

This almost exactly maps onto how many warriors there are if we put all the units to "typical" max strength units.  Typical being a front line unit consisting of 3 'mech trinaries, 1 aero trinary, and 1 elemental trinary; and a second line unit consisting of 5 trinaries of 1 star each of 'mech, aero, elemental.  We know there are some differences between clans, with some clans having unattached command stars at the cluster level, some clans using PBI instead of elementals.  For this calculation I'm considering these differences to be a wash.  In addition we have fleet assets, for which I am considering the warrior caste to include all noted infantry, aerospace fighters, and officers on the ship - we should be aware that there are unnumbered officers in military dropships which I cannot, with any degree of accuracy, include, so there is a bit of extra wiggle room in that area.

According to FM: Updates there are:
281 Front Line Clusters = 42,150
276 Second Line Clusters = 55,200
Fleet Assets = 17,500

This comes to a total of 114,850.

Big ending caveat: this is your game, so do what you want with it - add or subtract from numbers as much as you feel you need to in order to tell the story you want to tell.  I personally, have always considered the clans to be much too small for their impact on the Inner Sphere (it is reasonable given normal growth levels and their starting population though).

[Metallgewitter]

That's an interesting point. And add to that is the relative small numbers of new warriors joining the Clan military each year. Each sibko graduates what 2-5 warriors from it's starting batch (the Vipers and Spirits can even have sibkos that graduate no warriors at times) while the IS graduates soldiers in the hundreds from their academies and boot camps (of course the training time is depending on the branch you are sorted into. Infantry and tankers are faster then Mechwarriors or Aero jocks) Of course what also add to that: a Clan warrior who manages to complete his first trial of position is at that point a fine tuned sword while a graduate of the Is has only seen mock combat and is basically ready to be thrown to the Wolves (military darwinism as Galen Cox said it when he became adjutant to Victor)

[Alan Grant]

Definitely some semi-hidden units out there in the conventional infantry and armor areas.

-Clan Coyote references that there are solahma infantry and/or vehicle clusters that don't appear in force assessments.
-Clan Star Adder notes that clusters of conventional infantry and vehicles are attached to their garrison galaxies, one role of these is to act as a police force
-Clan Cloud Cobra makes a similar notation about garrison units
-We learn a LOT about the detachment of solahma at Falcon Eyrie at Huntress in the Twilight of the Clans novels, small detachment of test pilots and guards, which by the time Taskforce Serpent arrives has been upgraded to something like a point of conventional infantry and some elementals
-Clan Nova Cat notes that some conventional infantry and armor are out there, usually for urban control roles.
-There are other references, this isn't comprehensive

In TRO 3085 in the clan infantry section, we get a view of some retired or test-down conventional infantry, as part of the Watch, as shipboard marines and so on.

I've been exploring this area a lot and have come to the conclusion that most, if not all Clans have some version of this. It might be clusters, it might be much smaller deployments, a star here or there (both FM: CC and WC note that conventional infantry is rarely deployed above binary strength, I take that to mean deployed in the field, even if they are part of a larger unit, like a cluster, they've been dispersed over a wide area, which makes sense for a police force). Much like how for a long time in the early days of the Clans being introduced to BT, armor among the Clans was virtually invisible (it seemed like they had no armor at all in the early days), a lot of these Clan infantry/armor units are invisible, they don't appear in Field Manuals, they don't get a lot of page time. How many of them, of what scale, is difficult to say. And a lot of them do probably just exist in the police role.

If they get deployed for actual combat it's to delay an advancing enemy, to trade lives for time while the "real warriors" regroup or get organized for the battle, and odds are it's the traditional solahma suicidal charge mission we have seen. In a fanfic type game I'm in, I often found myself using such conventional infantry points as scouts in observation posts and along a perimeter. Their job was to man the perimeter and report on enemy activity, and if they spotted an enemy force incoming, they were to report in, raise the alarm, then engage and stall that enemy until the proper warriors could arrive, and I wasn't terribly upset if they died doing it. They were also used as guards as bases.

But that frees up the touman line units, even garrison clusters, from a lot of low-level policing and anti- bandit/guerrilla roles that a 'mech or point of Elementals or ASF just isn't suitable for. It preserves more of their strength and energy for fighting other Clans or actual military forces with heavy hardware.


Conventional infantry/armor aside, there are definitely a slice of warriors in non-combat roles, not so much as whole units. Deployed as military governors of enclaves or entire worlds, as test pilots, as advisors to R&D programs, as Bloodname House Leaders, escorts/observers attached to merchants, escorts for exploration units, sibko trainers and a bunch of other stuff. A lot of these warriors are likely solahma and test-downs serving individually or in small units.

[cmerwin]

This comes to a total of 114,850.

Agreed about the game ownership aspect. I've been trying to think differently about Clan organization recently, which helps me make more sense of the numbers. My own personal military background was being detailed to a combined combat arms unit, so the rigid Clan caste structure always chaffed at me. But I think I am starting to think about it differently.

If the Clan Warrior caste is *only* what we in the 21st century would think of as Combat Arms, and the Technician Caste is every other military specialty, these numbers are not actually wildly incongruous. Admittedly, it is **extremely small**. Current (2021-22) U.S. Army active duty force strength is higher than 485,000, but that includes non-Combat Arms as well as Combat Arms. The rough guestimate is that only 10% of the Army is combat arms, so only 48,000.

Admittedly, for the Clans, I would still add in my own games another digit in front of your total - maybe even two. 1 million - heck even 11 M - warriors across the entire Kerensky Cluster doesn't seem unreasonable (roughly 1 million warriors per planet).

But, it would mean that many military specialties that a 21st-century person might think about (logistics, ammunition, engineer, communications, motor pool, etc. etc.) are not "officially" counted as part of the touman, but those Technicians still travel with, work alongside, and support the touman in combat theaters and operations. And like modern militaries, may even have their own Binaries, Novas, Clusters, Galaxies, etc.

[cmerwin]

Definitely some semi-hidden units out there in the conventional infantry and armor areas.

Absolutely! And I would imagine that different Clans, depending on their temperament and traditionality, might classify some of those police-type (or even leg infantry or armor) differently.  And I think you are 100% right to point out that it means that these units are unlikely to be deployed in the field (although they may or may not be listed in the touman).

Given that both FM: WC and FM: CC both define 'touman' as the "fighting arm of a Clan," I think that this goes with what you are saying that different Clans may define "fighting" in different ways. Some think fighters are only (Mech)Warriors/Elementals/(Aerospace)Fighters, while other Clans because of their history and composition, will include garrison, solahma, police, armor, infantry, or anyone who uses a weapon.

[wantec]

Agreed about the game ownership aspect. I've been trying to think differently about Clan organization recently, which helps me make more sense of the numbers. My own personal military background was being detailed to a combined combat arms unit, so the rigid Clan caste structure always chaffed at me. But I think I am starting to think about it differently.

If the Clan Warrior caste is *only* what we in the 21st century would think of as Combat Arms, and the Technician Caste is every other military specialty, these numbers are not actually wildly incongruous. Admittedly, it is **extremely small**. Current (2021-22) U.S. Army active duty force strength is higher than 485,000, but that includes non-Combat Arms as well as Combat Arms. The rough guestimate is that only 10% of the Army is combat arms, so only 48,000.

Admittedly, for the Clans, I would still add in my own games another digit in front of your total - maybe even two. 1 million - heck even 11 M - warriors across the entire Kerensky Cluster doesn't seem unreasonable (roughly 1 million warriors per planet).

But, it would mean that many military specialties that a 21st-century person might think about (logistics, ammunition, engineer, communications, motor pool, etc. etc.) are not "officially" counted as part of the touman, but those Technicians still travel with, work alongside, and support the touman in combat theaters and operations. And like modern militaries, may even have their own Binaries, Novas, Clusters, Galaxies, etc.

Something to consider is the Clans have a high turnover rate. The Clans use live-fire in training, Trials against other Clans, Trials within each Clan, Trials of Bloodright. Not to mention the fluff that 30-35 is old unless you have a bloodname or higher rank. Then there's the part of how many babies born to a sibko actually end up graduating to join the Touman vs the washouts. Washouts then fill some other role in another caste.

Your estimate of 1 million or even 11 million might not be too far off if it was a more traditional military with a much lower turnover/loss rate.

[Vition2]

Something to consider is the Clans have a high turnover rate.

It's surprisingly not as high as you'd think.  Again referencing an ancient book, the average life expectancy of a clan warrior is 41-42 years old.  Assuming most graduating warriors matriculate into a combat role sometime between 18 and 22 depending on the clan and we can come away with a turnover rate of between 4-5% (lets go with 5% to make it easy).  While we don't necessarily have concrete numbers on sibko sizes there are references stating 20 or larger.  There are also references to graduating numbers equal to 4-5 per sibko, except the Vipers who graduate 1-2 (but make up for it by training double).  So if we say that the average sibko is 25 students, and and average of 4 graduate, then here's the numbers:

Total clan losses/replacements in an average year: ~5,750
Total number of sibko cadets fighting ToPs each year: ~35,950
Total numbers of cadets aged 10-20: ~395,450

These are obviously super, super, rough estimates, since we really don't have any real good numbers here.

That number is actually smaller than I thought it would be.  But an additional thing to keep in mind is that there are warriors training these cadets.  As each cadet is given individual training, I guesstimate that there is roughly 1 trainer per 10 cadets for their first 5 years, then 1 trainer per 5 cadets until they graduate.  This adds an additional 61,100 warriors specifically focused on training (non-combat arms, though).

[Alan Grant]

That life expectancy number from the book Warriors of Kerensky has always bugged me. 45.2 seems high to me. If that was truly that common I feel like the sting of becoming solahma wouldn't be so high because it would be pretty routine to end up there.

At the same time we have books like FM: Mercenaries (the original, not revised) that say mercenaries have an 87 percent chance of being killed in battle within 10 years.

They are measuring different things, but still..

I always felt like that merc number is extremely useful and relevant and it just makes sense to me. If applied to Clan warriors it suggests by around age 30, about 8 out of 10 warriors have died. Given how much combat they see, combat, Trials, Circle of Equals, all of it, that makes a lot of sense to me, and it makes the sting of being a solahma make sense too. Being a solahma is like institutionalized survivor guilt. Your sibkin and trothkin have died, you have survived somehow. If that's on the back of a bloodname and success that's one thing. But if you haven't achieved those things then it doesn't look like as impressive a feat.

I have to remind myself that with averages, outliers can really skew the data, and I really think that may be at the heart of my issue with this. Those warriors who make it to 50, 60, even older (due to spending years as a solahma, due to earning a bloodname and retaining their rank and position longer, etc.) can really skew the data. And since most cadets become warriors around age 20, it's hard to skew the data down (I doubt sibko cadets are counted in this math, most likely they start getting counted upon becoming a warrior and thus warrior caste), but it's very possible to skew it upward with that percentage slice of warriors who just live longer. Whether it was as Khan, or as a solahma serving quietly as a jumpship officer or as a police/infantry warrior for many years past their warrior prime with the amount of combat you see actually decreasing over time.

We have several references, Clan infantry in TRO 3085 being one, that say despite the solahma reputation for seeking an honorable death in battle, many get shoved off to these less desirable assignments where that honorable death in battle is actually more difficult to achieve because they are often serving the Clan in a much less violent role where mainline bloody combat becomes less central to their lives (R&D test pilot, military governor, the Clan equivilant of military police/solahma infantry, spacecraft officer, etc.).

For both I wish we had the median, rather than the average. That math does a better job calculating what the actual most common life expectancy is, and it isn't as influenced by outliers.

[cmerwin]

Being a solahma is like institutionalized survivor guilt. Your sibkin and trothkin have died, you have survived somehow. If that's on the back of a bloodname and success that's one thing. But if you haven't achieved those things then it doesn't look like as impressive a feat

This! All of this. And as a solahma you have utterly failed: you have failed to get promoted, you have failed to earn a bloodname, and you have failed to die.


Nice points about the median versus the average. And even there we have to ask whether it is Clans wide? The first several generations of Nova Cat khans pushed (or exceeded) their hundreds, which would really mess up the averages for the rest of the Nova Cats if that is the case.

[wantec]

This! All of this. And as a solahma you have utterly failed: you have failed to get promoted, you have failed to earn a bloodname, and you have failed to die.


Nice points about the median versus the average. And even there we have to ask whether it is Clans wide? The first several generations of Nova Cat khans pushed (or exceeded) their hundreds, which would really mess up the averages for the rest of the Nova Cats if that is the case.

And following up this apt description of solahma, I think it would be enlightening to further separate out the numbers: median and average, but in 3 categories, bloodnamed only, unbloodnamed only, and both combined.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

A lot of the newer fiction, especially those with the Ghost Bears, actually seem to show those other forces of the Clan. Dominions Divided even has a listing for the Clan Watch unit, a unit we’ve never seen in any Touman before to date. Include all the police forces mentioned thru out the fiction you end up with some interesting Force numbers.

[tassa_kay]

And as a solahma you have utterly failed: you have failed to get promoted, you have failed to earn a bloodname, and you have failed to die.

This isn't entirely accurate, and I think mischaracterizes what it means to be in a solahma unit a little bit. We've seen Bloodnamed solahma warriors, and we've seen ranked solahma officers.

"Utterly failing" in Clan terms isn't simply getting old and ending up solahma. It's not having your genetics considered to be good enough for later use. And being solahma doesn't (necessarily) preclude that from happening.

[The Wobbly Guy]

Hmmm... what's the difference between test-downs and solahma other than age and status? Lemme try to think it through...

A warrior in mid-twenties, fails his annual ToP to retain warrior status, gets transferred to another caste. Straightforward. But do they ever get another chance?

Or even more interestingly, a bloodnamed warrior in early 30s, ristar in some respects, tests out/down due to some fluke or bad luck. Do they get a second chance?

Another warrior, survives all the battles, gets to a ripe old age of 50-plus years (like Joanna). At this point, they're probably already relegated from front-line duty. But even in a solahma unit, would they still need to undergo annual ToPs to retain their warrior status? Or would it be automatically assumed they retain their warrior status since the clan wouldn't want to spend trialing resources on them?

And even in solahma, there are degrees. There're those who still qualify for mechs, those who are conventional infantry (e.g. Ter Roshak). Maybe even some of them transition to combat vehicles (would they deign to lower themselves to that level?). Are there trials for these? And this harkens back to an earlier post I had about the ToP, particularly for infantry.

What are your thoughts on this?

[AlphaMirage]

I'd probably say that a failure in your annual ToP probably doesn't revoke your warrior status you'd just drop down a level (demoted, reassigned from a frontline slot to a secondline one or from secondline to solahma/support or to a different subcaste/lesser machine). Once you run out of levels to drop though you're out but if you rise fast quickly you have lots of room to fallback. This conserves the effort the Clan put into maintaining that Warrior throughout their life while making room for newcomers which 'should' be better. It also means that while secondliners might be a little slower on the draw and have some miles on their bodies they can leverage their superior experience and are less bound by the confines of zellbrigen making them potentially just as combat effective.

[cmerwin]

Hmmm... what's the difference between test-downs and solahma other than age and status? Lemme try to think it through...

A warrior in mid-twenties, fails his annual ToP to retain warrior status, gets transferred to another caste. Straightforward. But do they ever get another chance?

Nope. Out of the caste.

Or even more interestingly, a bloodnamed warrior in early 30s, ristar in some respects, tests out/down due to some fluke or bad luck. Do they get a second chance?

Yeeeeeessssss? ??? ? How far down did they test? Minimally, if they didn't test out of the caste, then they get next year's ToP to show that they just had a "bad year".

Another warrior, survives all the battles, gets to a ripe old age of 50-plus years (like Joanna). At this point, they're probably already relegated from front-line duty. But even in a solahma unit, would they still need to undergo annual ToPs to retain their warrior status? Or would it be automatically assumed they retain their warrior status since the clan wouldn't want to spend trialing resources on them?

You bring up Joanna, she killed **NATASHA KERENSKY** - the only Clanner to earn Star Colonel in their ToP, earned TWO lines in the Remembrance, but was still solahma. IMHO she should have been given at least Bloodname sponsorship, but instead she was already decided to be washed out.

Like almost all militaries and in a similar fashion most jobs, it wasn't her lack of merit, it was her personality and refusal to play by the "established" rules.

I hear what @Tassa_kay is saying, but maybe part of solahma is a place to put Clan undesireables (that isn't the Dark Caste), it's not a hard and fast rule. People - like Andery - who don't fit Nicholas' ideal of the Clans, but are still "Clan". And so, I still stand by that solahma in Clan eyes means: you failed, one way or another (rank or Bloodname), you failed (and maybe we as the Clan failed to recognize the true warrior), but we refuse to recognize you now and to future generations as something to hold up. And this goes back to @Alan Grant's nicely put point about survivor's guilt.

[Alan Grant]

Nope. Out of the caste.

Out of the caste or straight to solahma status? I think it's the latter but I have to admit I don't feel 100% sure on this one.

My evidence:

-The Diamond Sharks letting warriors leave the warrior caste is perceived as this unique thing (some of those were successful, bloodnamed, others were not, and letting them do so was like an extension of hegira). That suggests that's not how it works in other Clans.

-Within Clan Cloud Cobra, we get EcKhan Jali N'Buta, who effectively retired from active duty to run the Tongo Cloister, yet is still a part of the Clan Council and has influence over politics. That implies that Jali is still part of the warrior caste.

-Cyrilla Ward, respected Bloodname House leader. They won't even give her a 'mech to go die in, she chooses suicide. Yet she is clearly still considered part of the warrior caste. She is respected, she has just lost that "active" warrior status.

-In TRO 3085 in the Clan Ghost Bear infantry section we are shown the Clan assault conventional infantry (a variation of solahma infantry). The fluff on them notes that because the Ghost Bears field such a large elemental force, that there is a continual supply of "retired or failed" elementals. They are then outfitted as these infantry, which seem to work with the Watch and are regarded as part of the Clan's internal security force.

-Also in TRO 3085 in the Hell's Horses section it notes a specific infantry unit that are typical of the Clan's ad hoc infantry points, made up of test-downs that have become solahma.


So in a few pieces of evidence we see the terms "retired" or "test-down" then translated into "solahma".

This suggests to me that if a warrior loses their warrior status for any reason, it's straight to solahma. Whether it's at age 25 or 40. Whether they are bloodnamed or not.

As for bloodnamed or not. I could see the bloodnamed getting treated much better. Like that category of solahma that seems to retain mechs/elemental suits/fighters and are assigned to solahma clusters and then committed to battle to find that honorable death. Assuming they haven't landed some other post, like leading a Bloodname House or a Cloud Cobra cloister.

It is worth noting, you don't see a lot of solahma Khans and solahma Galaxy Commanders. It seems like the Clan is a little more willing to expend energy to let these warriors find an honorable death. It wouldn't surprise me if such warriors are not only held up longer and allowed to retain equipment, they are also put into situations where they'll find that honorable death. It probably helps that such individuals have more political power and allies to help them.

If you don't have a bloodname and end up retired or test down and landing in solahma status, it's sorta like you've lost respect. You aren't respected anymore, your wishes and preferences don't matter. You go where the Clan sends you and you have little recourse. They may not even have to respect a Trial of Refusal or Grevience over the choice of assignment, because they don't have to acknowledge solahma. Conventional marine or solahma infantry/police, wherever you get sent you don't have a choice.

But such individuals are still part of the warrior caste. They just aren't respected the same way as others, and that's where "solahma" becomes a derogatory term.

I do think that, as has been hinted at in this discussion. That there are tiers of solahma. There is clearly a difference between that retired warrior who is made a military governor or a Bloodname House Leader, and that warrior who retains a 'Mech in a cluster (by whatever name, solahma, PCG etc.), and that other solahma who loses access to a cockpit and gets handed a rifle and infantry equipment.

It probably has to do with what level of status they achieved prior to that point, as well as how they ended up solahma, as well as the state of their physical health and abilities. I can also see it having a lot to do as well with the trothkin they have made, the allies they have cultivated, who may yet have some sway in getting them into one of the better assignment options.

[The Wobbly Guy]

We do have canon examples of warriors who passed their initial ToP but later tested down to a lower caste right? I'm not talking of the Diamond Sharks, but other clans.

[tassa_kay]

Nope. Out of the caste.

This isn't entirely accurate, either; WoK, WoR and ER: Golden Century all contradict this.

Yes, testing [the ToP to maintain rank] is held annually/periodically (Era Report Golden Century also points out that testing is a technical/formal standard but not necessarily a common practice; some Clans waive it if the warrior has seen recent combat, sometimes it's not even a combat Trial but a fitness test or a simulator exercise, etc., depending on role and assignment), but there are differing consequences for failure: officers are demoted, non-officer MechWarriors, pilots, Elementals and ProtoMech warriors are either relegated to a non-combat role (like, say, a solahma unit) or transferred to a civilian caste.

[tassa_kay]

Out of the caste or straight to solahma status? I think it's the latter but I have to admit I don't feel 100% sure on this one.

Wars of Reaving actually answers this one: officers who fail their testing [the ToP to maintain rank, as opposed to blooding, the initial ToP] are demoted, and non-officer MechWarriors, pilots, Elementals and ProtoMech warriors are either relegated to a non-combat role or else transferred to a civilian caste.

It is worth noting, you don't see a lot of solahma Khans and solahma Galaxy Commanders. It seems like the Clan is a little more willing to expend energy to let these warriors find an honorable death. It wouldn't surprise me if such warriors are not only held up longer and allowed to retain equipment, they are also put into situations where they'll find that honorable death. It probably helps that such individuals have more political power and allies to help them.

WoK points out that the requalification of Khans and Galaxy Commanders specifically are considered routine, and direct challenges for their posts are frowned upon, so I'm inclined to agree with this.

You're pretty much spot-on here as always, @Alan Grant.

[Gaiiten]

I think it depends on the whole codex of the warrior.

If he/she has had a good career, before testing down, he / she might get assigned to a solahma.
If not or if he/she did make a bad mistake costing the Clan dearly, downtesting means civilian caste.

[tassa_kay]

I think it depends on the whole codex of the warrior.

If he/she has had a good career, before testing down, he / she might get assigned to a solahma.
If not or if he/she did make a bad mistake costing the Clan dearly, downtesting means civilian caste.

I absolutely agree with this. If ever there was a time when the codex of the warrior would matter, it would be testing, I'd think.

[Alan Grant]

Wars of Reaving actually answers this one: officers who fail their testing [the ToP to maintain rank, as opposed to blooding, the initial ToP] are demoted, and non-officer MechWarriors, pilots, Elementals and ProtoMech warriors are either relegated to a non-combat role or else transferred to a civilian caste.

WoK points out that the requalification of Khans and Galaxy Commanders specifically are considered routine, and direct challenges for their posts are frowned upon, so I'm inclined to agree with this.

You're pretty much spot-on here as always, @Alan Grant.

Thank you. If you have a page number for that first reference about test-downs non-officer warriors going to a lower caste, I'd love to get that. I believe you, I just didn't realize such a reference exists and would love to see it myself. This question comes up a lot.

[cmerwin]

We do have canon examples of warriors who passed their initial ToP but later tested down to a lower caste right? I'm not talking of the Diamond Sharks, but other clans.

This is why I initially responded "Nope" to his post. As I understood @Woobly Guy's initial question, it was about a Warrior, *now* in another Caste because of testing down, later testing *back up* into the Warrior caste in a ToP.
Does anyone know of a Warrior having done this?

[cmerwin]

Thank you. If you have a page number for that first reference about test-downs non-officer warriors going to a lower caste, I'd love to get that. I believe you, I just didn't realize such a reference exists and would love to see it myself. This question comes up a lot.

@tassa_kay - not sure if it's the reference you were thinking of, but @Alan Grant, there's a mention of it on page 254 of The Wars of Reaving:
"Those who perform more poorly than expected are demoted. A non-officer MechWarrior, pilot, Elemental, or ProtoMech warrior who tests down are relegated to a non-combat role or else transferred to a civilian caste."

[wantec]

This is why I initially responded "Nope" to his post. As I understood @Woobly Guy's initial question, it was about a Warrior, *now* in another Caste because of testing down, later testing *back up* into the Warrior caste in a ToP.
Does anyone know of a Warrior having done this?

It's not a regular thing, but it has happened in rare circumstances to fit the needs of the Clan. In FMCC Vlad did it as another step to help fill the touman after the Refusal War and when the Harvest Trials got some, but not enough warriors. The Sharks did similar on Vinton (I think) during the Wars of Reaving. There's probably some more similar cases I can't remember right now. But in general, once out of the warrior caste there's no coming back (Sea Fox "retirement" excepted).

[Alan Grant]

@tassa_kay - not sure if it's the reference you were thinking of, but @Alan Grant, there's a mention of it on page 254 of The Wars of Reaving:
"Those who perform more poorly than expected are demoted. A non-officer MechWarrior, pilot, Elemental, or ProtoMech warrior who tests down are relegated to a non-combat role or else transferred to a civilian caste."

Interesting little addition to the glossary at the back of the book.  :thumbsup:

EDIT: This will require a lot of new thought down this particular path. What are the criteria behind the decision to be assigned to a non-combat role versus a civilian caste? How does that differ from the path of a solahma? (I'm asking more rhetorically at this point)

Little line of text, lot of implications.

[The Wobbly Guy]

Eh, let's clarify one thing - a non-combat role =/= civilian?

So these are military governors, administrators, investigators. The lowest of these is probably to oversee the maintenance techs, or maybe in charge of on-base security.

So failing the annual testing has 3 possible outcomes:
1. Demotion in rank
2. Relegation to non-combat role
3. Down caste

Outcomes 1 and 2 hold the possibility of regaining former status by testing well in the next annual cycle. Outcome 3 - dunno.

[tassa_kay]

Thank you. If you have a page number for that first reference about test-downs non-officer warriors going to a lower caste, I'd love to get that. I believe you, I just didn't realize such a reference exists and would love to see it myself. This question comes up a lot.

It's in the Clan glossary under Trial of Position (WoR, pg. 254).

WoK also mentions it under Trial of Position (page 46), saying "those who do not [perform well in the testing] either retain their current status or "test down" and are relegated to second-line units and non-combat posts or demoted to a lower caste.

WoR just seems to make the officer/non-officer distinction, which granted is a great little detail to add to this.

[tassa_kay]

What are the criteria behind the decision to be assigned to a non-combat role versus a civilian caste?

I think Gaiiten actually gave a great answer to this: the warrior's codex. A warrior with an otherwise-solid codex might end up being given a non-combat role, and a warrior with a crappy codex gets to join whatever caste the Clan gives a crap enough to send him to.

How does that differ from the path of a solahma?

A solahma unit is still a combat unit, I would think, as opposed to a non-combat role.

[cmerwin]

This isn't entirely accurate, either; WoK, WoR and ER: Golden Century all contradict this.

Facepalm. Philip Drummond is actually a perfect example of this, demobilized out of SLDF in early Pentagon, but later tests back into Warrior Caste. That said, I'm not sure I feel right citing anything from Operation KLONDIKE as doctrine given how nascent everything Clan was.

[tassa_kay]

Facepalm. Philip Drummond is actually a perfect example of this, demobilized out of SLDF in early Pentagon, but later tests back into Warrior Caste. That said, I'm not sure I feel right citing anything from Operation KLONDIKE as doctrine given how nascent everything Clan was.

Yeah, he's definitely a special case, I'd say. The Clans hadn't yet completely solidified their caste system yet, as we saw with the Wolverines letting theirs move around and the Falcons' Culling, so it makes sense.

[cmerwin]

Interesting little addition to the glossary at the back of the book.  :thumbsup:

What are the criteria behind the decision to be assigned to a non-combat role versus a civilian caste? How does that differ from the path of a solahma? (I'm asking more rhetorically at this point)

Little line of text, lot of implications.

@Alan's comment sorta speaks to my original rationale in the post. Given the definition of 'touman', I am not sure I understand the difference between 'non-combat' and 'civilian' for the Clans in this case? If the definition of touman is the 'fighting arm' (WoK 121), then non-combat and civilian mean the same thing. Unless, as I suggested earlier, following Alan's reasoning, what "counts" as fighting, might differ among clans (i.e. Mech = fighting; infantry/armor ≠ fighting for some, but counts for others).

[tassa_kay]

I would think non-combat roles might mean things within the touman that aren't handled by the lower castes: administrative/HQ duties, driving a support vehicle, comms officer at a base somewhere, etc. Support staff in general for a Clan's touman provides a lot of options.

[Richard S.]

Does Touman = warrior caste? Maybe there's some seperation, i.e. while the Touman might be all warriors, not all warriors are part of the Touman. I agree with the earlier idea that most noncombat roles like HQ and support personnel are going to be technician caste, though.

[tassa_kay]

There's one non-combat warrior caste position that's obvious: sibko trainers.

I also imagine positions like planetary/enclave governors (example: the governor of Graus in "A Rending of Falcons" was an un-Bloodnamed warrior), liaisons with the lower castes (say, the warrior in charge of coordinating material transfers to a unit with the merchants, or overseeing the technician crew maintaining a unit's machines) and the like would also be things that warriors can test down to that are non-combat positions and considered undesirable because of the lack of combat/glory/chance for an honorable death.

[WONC]

I haven't seen it referenced in this thread yet, but it is worth mentioning that the Cloud Cobras are a special case in that they maintain essentially "dispossessed" warriors (read: fully qualified but currently lacking equipment assignments) as reserves. Not solamha, but actual reserves. They act in logistical, support, ad-hoc infantry, and even security functions and are the first tapped to fill in for casualties and other personnel losses. Reservists maintain their status via training on simulators and occasional live training time when equipment can be spared. This is all said to be done to support the Cobras general lack of military resources, especially 'Mechs. It also helps explain the references to leadership stepping aside and still maintaining the credentials and clout to be ecKhans of the myriad cloisters.

[Alan Grant]

I don't think Warrior Caste is entirely the same as the touman. Great example already given and referenced in previous pasts, sibko trainers but others too, serving in roles outside of that. Cyrilla Ward was the Bloodname House Leader of House Ward but not an active warrior, arguably, not part of the touman. Military governors, advisors to other castes, test pilots and so on. Warrior Caste but not serving in the Touman.

I think the Touman is the standing Army/Navy Units of the Clan, for lack of a better phrasing. That includes warriors in line units and all support personnel of any role. That includes medical units, logistical units, engineers, combat engineers (canon tells us such units are usually attached to Galaxy HQs). That includes the naval reserve, which has crews of dropships/jumpships/warships dominated by individuals of other castes.

So Warrior Caste and Touman are like two circles with a tremendous amount of overlap. But they don't completely overlap.

Shifting over to this line about test-downs...

That line in Wars of Reaving says civilian CASTE. Important distinction. Test-downs can be assigned to non-combat roles or civilian castes. So they are saying they get reassigned to the scientist/merchant/tech/labor castes. You really need both words for maximum clarity.

Here is where I get a little interpretative of what I THINK that means. To me civilian caste truly means they are out. For some reason they aren't fit to serve, the warriors don't want then around. That part is easy to define, although I'd be curious as to what kind of situations warrants such reassignment. I'm half picturing a warrior who can't walk (or run) anymore, or who has gone partially blind. Something really debilitating and permanent, fully or borderline disabled in such that the warriors don't see any value in keeping them around. I can see that. They may have some value somewhere else in the Clan behind a desk, but not in the Warrior Caste, not anywhere even adjacent to combat living and working in rough conditions. This person could still live a life in a lower caste city, with air conditioning/heat, public transportation, the trappings of civilian life but also an easier life where they will still be able to contribute to the Clan and their particular needs can be accommodated.

The warrior test-downs assigned to "non-combat roles" that is where I get a little interpretative.

that could mean desk jobs for sure, they become the logistics person, or a Cluster HQ staff officer equivilant, but we know the Clan likes to treat some supporting assets like non-combatants even though they do see combat. Infantry/vehicle units, combat engineers, etc. They like to pretend these assets don't exist but they do.

I suspect non-combat roles actually means and includes some of those jobs that to a Spheroid would be seen as a combat arm, but to the Clans are regarded as supporting units. Infantry, combat engineers, naval crew (not officers).

Bit of supporting canon evidence.

FM: Crusader Clans, Star Adder section, page 119. Reads: Conventional vehicles and infantry round out the garrison galaxies. Though neither offers a path to glory for a warrior, such assignments are still far better in most warriors estimation than relegation to a lower caste.

It goes on to say they have two to three clusters of them attached to garrison galaxies and that some of these serve as police.

I've seen that line for many years now, but have always wondered if it was written in error or just badly worded because I always believed you really couldn't leave the Warrior Caste in most Clans. This new evidence puts that line in a very different light. It feels like it's supporting that modern definition of test-down given to us by the book Wars of Reaving.

[Metallgewitter]

I'd assume that a lot of the "support roles" within a Clan are part of the merchant caste as they are those who handle the logistics and also the caluclations for trials. Like the example given in WoR (the text written by the then SLDF ambassador) should a clan loose a mine it is not the leadership that decides what to do but it's rather the merchants who do a cost / benfit analysis and then give their recommendations. This is also something I wanted to throw in in regards to the Touman's size: I suspect that the merchants do a lot of calculating and then basically give their recommendations if a touman should be exoanded what it will cost and so on. For example if a Clan wants to take more territory you not only need to do the bidding but the aftermath has to be included: garrison forces, integrating of possible bondsmen and also the isorla civilians. not to mention supplying the new enclave and fortifying it while also guarding the possibly weakened existing enclaves. So if the merchant caste says "Yes if you increase the touman we have this and this possiblity but it will cost us this much in material" it might be a detriment in actually increasing the touman (especially with the wastenot.want not mentality of the Clans) This isn't the Is where you "just" have to persuade parliamant to build new units (Free Worlds) or simply order the crash build up of new units (most other Successor states)

[Alan Grant]

I'd assume that a lot of the "support roles" within a Clan are part of the merchant caste as they are those who handle the logistics and also the caluclations for trials. Like the example given in WoR (the text written by the then SLDF ambassador) should a clan loose a mine it is not the leadership that decides what to do but it's rather the merchants who do a cost / benfit analysis and then give their recommendations. This is also something I wanted to throw in in regards to the Touman's size: I suspect that the merchants do a lot of calculating and then basically give their recommendations if a touman should be exoanded what it will cost and so on. For example if a Clan wants to take more territory you not only need to do the bidding but the aftermath has to be included: garrison forces, integrating of possible bondsmen and also the isorla civilians. not to mention supplying the new enclave and fortifying it while also guarding the possibly weakened existing enclaves. So if the merchant caste says "Yes if you increase the touman we have this and this possiblity but it will cost us this much in material" it might be a detriment in actually increasing the touman (especially with the wastenot.want not mentality of the Clans) This isn't the Is where you "just" have to persuade parliamant to build new units (Free Worlds) or simply order the crash build up of new units (most other Successor states)

Correct, I forget where I read it right now, but I've seen somewhere that the merchant caste handles the logistics of the touman. Merchant caste also operates a lot of the cargo carrying dropships, often with a merchant as the ship's captain, so they are literally running the support fleet. In addition to all the tasks you pointed out.

But then you also have the techs and laborers and scientists (doctors belong to the scientist caste) doing what they do if assigned to the touman. I can see roles for all of them. Technically such units and personnel would be considered part of the Touman.

[cmerwin]

I would think non-combat roles might mean things within the touman that aren't handled by the lower castes: administrative/HQ duties, driving a support vehicle, comms officer at a base somewhere, etc. Support staff in general for a Clan's touman provides a lot of options.

Agree 100%, it's how contemporary militaries operate (my earlier distinction between combat arms and non-combat arms). But all of this is why I'm still unclear with the definition of touman as the "fighting arm of the Clan". If we are going with the definition as listed in the sourcebooks, I'm unclear as to how we interpret what counts as a "fighting arm".

[tassa_kay]

Agree 100%, it's how contemporary militaries operate (my earlier distinction between combat arms and non-combat arms). But all of this is why I'm still unclear with the definition of touman as the "fighting arm of the Clan". If we are going with the definition as listed in the sourcebooks, I'm unclear as to how we interpret what counts as a "fighting arm".

This is probably an oversimplification on my part, but I consider a Clan's touman to be all of their martial assets that we see in Field Manuals. Dominions Divided established that, at least for the Bears, their Watch is distinctly not considered a part of their touman (despite being organized in Clan military style, using Mechs, etc.), so if it's not "on the rolls" per se, I don't personally count it as part of the touman. We know that merchants, technicians and even scientists all have support roles for any given Clan's military force, but I think it's the grey area where the warrior caste ends and the lower castes begin that the line is drawn. Good luck finding it, though!

[Alan Grant]

To me... (opinion incoming)

You are part of the Touman if: You ultimately operate under the umbrella of a Galaxy HQ or Naval Reserve HQ, or Keshik HQ and report to the same. If you go high enough up the chain of command that you hit one of those offices, you are part of the Touman.

That doesn't just include Clusters and warships/spacecraft. That includes the support non-combat units.

If you or your unit don't report to one of those, you may not be part of the Touman. You may be part of a sibko training unit. You may be part of a shipyard, or 'mech factory, you may be part of the Watch. None of those report to a Galaxy or Naval Reserve or Keshik HQ. They report to other things, caste things, Clan Council, Khan.

But if you are with the <insert medical unit name> attached to Clan Wolf's Alpha Galaxy and reporting to their Galaxy HQ, then you are part of the Touman. If Alpha Galaxy in its entirety gets orders to pack up and move to a new posting, and you go with them because your HQ ordered you to, you are part of that command and part of the Touman.

[tassa_kay]

WoK (which specifically remarks that the military and the warrior caste are not one and the same and points out those non-warrior caste supporting roles) gets a little more specific about the touman: they are divided into Galaxies, each roughly analogous to an SLDF brigade, with integral supply, transport and medical assets. It then goes on down the line with the Cluster, Trinary, Star and Point sub-divisions. It also notes that support assets like engineers, artillery and MASH units are attached at the Galaxy level but may be detached for operations with Clusters as needed.

So your definition isn't even your opinion, @Alan Grant, it's flat-out said to be the case. :)

[Alan Grant]

Oh your right, and yea WoK page 64 literally defines "The Touman" as exactly that.

I'm sure I just read it, and then forgot I read it.

I'm actually an A.I. programmed with Clan Trivia.  :drool:

[tassa_kay]

Hey, don't even sweat it! It's you asking these questions that motivates me to go digging for the info, and I'm grateful for that because I learn new things!

[Hellraiser]

I'd probably say that a failure in your annual ToP probably doesn't revoke your warrior status you'd just drop down a level (demoted, reassigned from a frontline slot to a secondline one or from secondline to solahma/support or to a different subcaste/lesser machine). Once you run out of levels to drop though you're out but if you rise fast quickly you have lots of room to fallback.

This is exactly what happens AFAIK.

Joanna lost rank when she failed a ToP late in life IIRC.  Got demoted from Captain to Commander IIRC.

Elias Critchel? from the Falcons got elected to ilKhan before Vlad killed him because he found out he'd been avoiding his annual trials to keep his position.

If he'd been fighting those he'd have lost his Khanship & started down a slide of demotions eventually ending up as Solhama Infantry after a decade or so of demotions/test downs loosing ranks & shifting from Front Line to Reserves, etc etc.

[cmerwin]

Oh your right, and yea WoK page 64 literally defines "The Touman" as exactly that.

I'm sure I just read it, and then forgot I read it.

I'm actually an A.I. programmed with Clan Trivia.  :drool:

Do you accept subscriptions yet?  :thumbsup: ;)

[Alan Grant]

Do you accept subscriptions yet?  :thumbsup: ;)

No, but I should consider it, LOL.

Pretty much every Battletech club, game, group I've been a part of, I've been the Clan trivia guy. Most people in those groups are happy to accept what I say as fact and feel like they've googled the answer (by asking me) and accept the response as fact. In this forum, even my knowledge gets challenged (correctly so) from time to time, and I genuinely learn new things or am thrown a different take on something that makes me reconsider what I thought I knew. So, I enjoy these discussions.

[cmerwin]

In this forum, even my knowledge gets challenged (correctly so) from time to time, and I genuinely learn new things or am thrown a different take on something that makes me reconsider what I thought I knew. So, I enjoy these discussions.

@tassa_kay mentioned something similar. I started BattleTech in the mid-80's as a kid, then stopped in the mid-90s - for mostly life reasons (also when I entered college and then the military) - for 30 years. I'm an academic now by profession, so the sheer joy of BT nerd trivia is something I can absolutely relate with you and @tassa_kay (and many others here) on, and more than anything, as someone still catching up on the glorious BT trivia I have missed, it's a joy to have your voice(s) and knowledge in these conversations. This is a pretty awesome community.

[Hellraiser]

Touman, as mentioned, is "Army/Navy".

Warriors = Combat Arms.
Front Line  >   2nd Line  >  Solhama  >  Security/Police/Watch  >  Non-Combat "Officers"/"Section Leaders" of the Non-Combat Arms below

4 other castes = Non-Combat Arms.
 Supply/Logistics = Merchants / Laborers
 Maintenance = Techs
 Medical = Scientists


That's my thoughts anyway.

[Metallgewitter]

I think this discussion comes up when you compare it to the original SLDF: even those who wanted to enter the Quartermasters corps had to undergo basic military training.
I would assume that a good portion of the merchant caste never undergoes military training (unless they are failed members of the warrior caste). And I think techs and other members of IS militaries also undergo basic military training just in case a military operation goes south

[Alan Grant]

@tassa_kay mentioned something similar. I started BattleTech in the mid-80's as a kid, then stopped in the mid-90s - for mostly life reasons (also when I entered college and then the military) - for 30 years. I'm an academic now by profession, so the sheer joy of BT nerd trivia is something I can absolutely relate with you and @tassa_kay (and many others here) on, and more than anything, as someone still catching up on the glorious BT trivia I have missed, it's a joy to have your voice(s) and knowledge in these conversations. This is a pretty awesome community.

Thank you! And yes it is.  :)

[Alan Grant]

I think this discussion comes up when you compare it to the original SLDF: even those who wanted to enter the Quartermasters corps had to undergo basic military training.
I would assume that a good portion of the merchant caste never undergoes military training (unless they are failed members of the warrior caste). And I think techs and other members of IS militaries also undergo basic military training just in case a military operation goes south

That gets into the differences between the IS and Clan. In most situations the Clans just don't trust the lower castes with weapons and training.

For those lower caste who work within the Touman, they are probably expected to maintain a lot of military-esque aspects. Physical fitness and other things, they may have some version of a uniform even, and elements of military discipline. But they really just aren't combatants, that caste difference is very apparent.

It also means how they are treated on the battlefield by the warriors (of both sides) is very different.

I once portrayed a fanfic story where some Clan elementals overrun the rear area of their Clan opponent, think field base with power generators, repair equipment and the like, they encountered a lot of techs belonging to that other Clan. They didn't indiscriminately gun down the lower castemen they encountered all over the place. They ordered them to stand down and surrender. The lower castemen in turn, unarmed and with none of their own warriors in sight, obeyed. They stopped their work, allowed themselves to be corralled where the warriors told them to go and waited to see what happened, whether they would be claimed like Isorla by these warriors from a different Clan and become members of that new Clan, or whether their own warriors would show up and liberate them.

The only ones who died were under the direct command of a warrior telling them to get a particular piece of equipment working, and the elementals gunned down that warrior and the lower castemen adjacent to that warrior died as well, as antipersonnel SMG fire from an elemental sprayed the lone warrior and also hit the nearby techs he was commanding. The rest of the techs at the base were brought to a building and room, sat down and they waited under the minimal guard of one elemental. Later their own Clan's warriors showed up, retook the area, liberated the techs and put them back to work.

In all of this, the non-combatant status of the techs was pretty well-respected by the warriors on both sides. That had the benefit of keeping most of them alive throughout the whole ordeal. They don't jump in to fight, they don't intervene. If they are actively being massacred or executed it's entirely possible they may choose to defend themselves or run away (I mean that's just human instinct to a horrific situation). But that's not the Clan norm, it's not how they are trained to handle that situation according to Clan norms.

If it had been an Inner Sphere conflict between Great Houses, the support staff would have taken up arms, fought back, or retreated/would have been routed, and probably a lot of them would have been killed or taken as POWs. They would have instantly been transformed from support personnel to combatants once the fighting reached them. With Clan norms, that generally isn't the case.

I'm SURE there are exceptions to this. We know there are. The techs of Snow Raven Retrieval teams (R-Teams) are trained go onto the battlefield and begin their salvaging work before the battle is even over, and are trained to defend themselves (per FM: WC). I think the rules get pretty murky for a warship crew (largely made up of lower castemen) that is being boarded. They report directly to warship officers/warriors who might just order them to resist and fight. I can also see the rules being murky for combat engineers, who may be lower caste (but I can see this being an excellent place to put test-downs and solahma warriors as well), but still put on the battlefield to build that bridge, or whatever else, right amid a raging battle, where the opposing Clan might want to stop that effort.

So there are exceptions, some murky gray areas. But overall, it looks like this is how that is handled. That acknowledged Clan cultural norm also acts as a kind of shield, a layer of protection, and provides a layer of argument for why the majority of lower caste working in the Touman don't need weapons or weapons training. If the warriors recognize that you are unarmed and that the norm is that you'll behave this way, then the fear/urge/motivation to just mow you down at the first impulse comes down as well. Those lower caste begin to resemble civilians, or hostages if you prefer to Spheroid eyes. Easily controlled, obedient, even to the warrior caste of the opposing Clan.

[BaldDen]

Remember, once there were 800 soldiers in Toumen, and that's not counting tankers, VTOL pilots and infantry. Later came Elementals.

[Metallgewitter]

Remember, once there were 800 soldiers in Toumen, and that's not counting tankers, VTOL pilots and infantry. Later came Elementals.

Not quiet though: Squad leaders and also tank commanders were counted as warriors. what wasn't counted were the crews / squadmates despite them being trained as warriors or rather auxiliaries. Something that has more or less vanished from Clan toumans except perhaps the Blood Spirits (having their entire population undergo basic military training) and the Horses having a sizeable pool of secondary warriors thanks to their practice of given failed sibko graduates a chance at a lesser position instead of relegation to another caste

[Hellraiser]

PS.  And Viper 2nd Line Clusters which are all a mix of Mechs & Leg Infantry Testdowns.

[cmerwin]

Remember, once there were 800 soldiers in Toumen, and that's not counting tankers, VTOL pilots and infantry. Later came Elementals.

This is an interesting question, but one that seems impossible to answer from the material we have. If Nicholas's number was originally intended to represent the size of a Clan (which I don't think it was, that's just what he had available), then the founding Clans were sitting on roughly 8 Galaxies of warriors, which is not a small number, and which would have grown throughout the Golden and Political Centuries. I'm not certain that a touman and a Clan were analogous at this point in Clan history, but the question is interesting for thinking about the eventual size a touman might grow in to.

[tassa_kay]

This is an interesting question, but one that seems impossible to answer from the material we have. If Nicholas's number was originally intended to represent the size of a Clan (which I don't think it was, that's just what he had available), then the founding Clans were sitting on roughly 8 Galaxies of warriors, which is not a small number, and which would have grown throughout the Golden and Political Centuries. I'm not certain that a touman and a Clan were analogous at this point in Clan history, but the question is interesting for thinking about the eventual size a touma might grow in to.

The only thing Nicholas ever really established regarding Clan size is that he intended them to all remain roughly the same size, to balance each other, which I believe was in Betrayal of Ideals. That's why part of why the Brian Cache issue that ended up being the catalyst for the Wolverine Annihilation was so important.

Notice that the first Absorption of a Clan happened after he died (and ironically, because he died).

[Hellraiser]

Notice that the first Absorption of a Clan happened after he died (and ironically, because he died). 

But IIRC he "intended" the Wolverines to be an Absorption till they revolted more & it evolved into an Annihilation.

[tassa_kay]

But IIRC he "intended" the Wolverines to be an Absorption till they revolted more & it evolved into an Annihilation.

The point still stands regardless.

[Metallgewitter]

There is the theory that the Absorption trials were meant to basically unite the Clans in case the initial unity breaks. As Clanners are drilled to follow orders and maintain unity  within the Clan it stands to reason that Clans that get absorbed become part of a bigger unity. And following that Clans that stray from the way get sorted out. Though of course the theory is more sound then reality shows (the Blood Spirits being notorious for resisting integration and the hardcore Burrcoks silently rebelling against the Adders by maintaining their contacts with the Dark Caste as the rather obvious examples)

[Alan Grant]

It's really not theory, that's fact. Those Trial types exist so that the Clans have a system for handling a group (whether it be an individual, unit, enclave, planet or Clan) that needs to go away or lose their independent autonomy.  After having watched the SLDF-in-Exile splinter and the Exodus Civil War, it's easy to imagine Nicholas and the others foresaw the need to have game-planned out such scenarios.

But I kinda feel like we've veered off the original topic.