Any -major- periphery powers?

[solmanian]

Why did the Taurians even considered "periphery" to begin with? Before the Reunification wars, they were one of the most advanced and powerful powers in the galaxy, second only to the Terran Hegemony, and far outstripping the houses. I don't know how a ground campaign may look, but from aerospace campaign perspective, they could steam roll through the FedSuns.

[Archangel]

Why did the Taurians even considered "periphery" to begin with? Before the Reunification wars, they were one of the most advanced and powerful powers in the galaxy, second only to the Terran Hegemony, and far outstripping the houses.

I have no idea where you got the idea that they were technologically far superior to the houses.  Per Reunification War, they were technologically "on par" with the six nations gathered under the Star League banner.

The biggest advantages that the Taurian Concordat had over the Federated Suns was that they had far fewer worlds to protect and could concentrate their force along one front (albeit with two foes-FedSuns and CapCon) to contend with while the Federated Suns had three separate fronts to worry about.  Not to mention that the FedSuns were still recovering from the civil war.

[solmanian]

They had a far better education (which the Davion were trying to copy, with only partial success), and their army wasn't just concentrated, it was also kinda huge. There's a reason it took more than two decades of some of the most brutal fighting of the setting including judicious huge of ortillery and WMDs.

[Medron Pryde]

I think they are considered Periphery since they did not welcome the Star League with open arms.

Therefore they were not a part of united humanity and had to be told they were wrong by the rest of humanity.

Making them Peripheral to Terran-based humanity.

So in short...more political than geographical, since almost all of their territory was less than 500 lightyears from Terra at the time...

[Offworlder]

While rare, there's no reason in universe why there couldn't be-- by the Age of War colonization was more or less old hat, so you were unlikely to make the stupid mistakes the early colonists made and jumpships were far more available than they were post-succession wars. 

....

And that's the real reason-- fundamentally the periphery is supposed to be something that is acted upon by the IS. Notice how even the clans are not effectively IS powers.  So I doubt if we're ever going to see any sort of advanced periphery power that doesn't have some odd and logic defying explanation for why it suddenly nuked itself into oblivion.

True enough. And there is also no reason why deep periphery states cannot have a 'reformer', 'modernizer' or whatever who can actually create or build upon tech imported from the IS. If there are states, then there is an intrinsic ability to change, evolve and organize oneself. This happens to the near periphery in a limited measure, such as in the case of the Oberon state, Rim Collection and the Marians. But they are always held back.

I mean honestly, why shouldn't the Marians with their mineral riches, be at a par with IS in almost everything?

[Korzon77]

They had a far better education (which the Davion were trying to copy, with only partial success), and their army wasn't just concentrated, it was also kinda huge. There's a reason it took more than two decades of some of the most brutal fighting of the setting including judicious huge of ortillery and WMDs.

This is where fiat comes in again (and more or less is in play for the entire region) after the fall of the SL, the TC has about 250 years to rebuild. And htey have worlds that are fully protected-- if there are any attacks on their core worlds until the Jihad they're very small.  And the TC managed to build up from a very low tech level to a levle that if not equal to the Star League, was certainly enough to give them a nasty tussle.

And yet with an eduational establishment that was, while not equal to the old TC, still very impressive in the core worlds, with centuries of freedom from inner sphere oppressin and with a very *strong* naval tradition... the TC never even managed to build jump ships? 

There are escuses you can make, but it really comes down to the idea that the center story should be on the Inner Sphere not the periphery and thus no periphery nation could be allowed to grow during this period. 

[Archangel]

I mean honestly, why shouldn't the Marians with their mineral riches, be at a par with IS in almost everything?

Main reason? They are not one of the major factions that the game revolves around.

There are escuses you can make, but it really comes down to the idea that the center story should be on the Inner Sphere not the periphery and thus no periphery nation could be allowed to grow during this period. 

Oh they can grow, just not to the point they draw the focus of the story away from the major players.

[Offworlder]

Well actually the focus now is essentially on Clan rampages through the IS and periphery. The bigger factions are ridiculously underpowered while half dead clans just blast their way through any force which the spheroids put forward. I mean honestly, after a century of contact with the clans, the IS hasn't actually learned how to counter them?

[Archangel]

Well actually the focus now is essentially on Clan rampages through the IS and periphery. The bigger factions are ridiculously underpowered while half dead clans just blast their way through any force which the spheroids put forward. I mean honestly, after a century of contact with the clans, the IS hasn't actually learned how to counter them?

The focus is on the Inner Sphere once again being consumed by war after a period of relative peace.  Will the Lyrans survive the Falcon and Wolf onslaught?  Will the FedSuns survive the Combine and Capellan invasions?  Will the reborn FWL reclaim its position as one of the Great Houses and what impact will they have on the Inner Sphere?  All the major action is focused in the Inner Sphere.  The Periphery states, including Raven Alliance, have once again become secondary players to the main players.

[Jellico]

They had a far better education (which the Davion were trying to copy, with only partial success), and their army wasn't just concentrated, it was also kinda huge. There's a reason it took more than two decades of some of the most brutal fighting of the setting including judicious huge of ortillery and WMDs.

Finland has arguably the best education system in the world, is technologically advanced and has a serious military tradition, yet they are not a major world player.

Major player status usually comes down to accessible resources and population.

[CungrVanck]

I would like to point out the Auxmite Providence for this discussion.  It is a primitive state beyond the Lyran Commonwealth and the Free Worlds League.  It has 20/21st century tech (they do have fusion reactors) and has one working jumpship left over from when they colonized their 12 worlds back before the First Star League.  They have no standing military and only recently opened communications with anyone (just IE)....in 3085.

The timeline is now up to 3145 now and we have heard of a potential time jumps to 3250 and beyond.

So the question is...just what has the government of the Providence been up to in all that time?  If they followed Terra's original tech invention...they could possibly have primitive jumpship production in 3145, possibly modern jumpships if IE helped them.  Now say that someone gives them some primitive battlemech plans or working battlemechs and then jump the time line to 3250.  If won't be a Great House, but it will be a significant power.

[solmanian]

Building a shipyard capable of producing jumpships is no way near easy; even the power players in the IS only have a handful each, with the smaller ones having one or none.
It demands the kind of education that you just not going to find in the deep periphery.
It demands the kind of industrial base, that you're not going to find in the deep periphery. And with tech rating B pushing on C, this guys won't get there without a sponsor with deep pockets like the WOB/C* of old.

[Korzon77]

yes, but se that makes absolutely no sense.  The TC managed to start building not just jumpships but actual warships well before the reunification war.  They also have several safe havens and were not involved in the Succession wars.  We also know, by word of god, that while intersteller commerce is a thing, staples aren't shipped-- so there is absolutely no, none, zip, nada, way that you can explain that a home world with a population of over four billion and A ratings that cannot build even older jumpships.  This is especially the case when they do have a dropship industry and a navel history.  The fact of the matter is that by any even partially realistic look at technology and social progress, the TC should be ahead of the IS by 3025, benefiting from an unparalleled period of peace that came after the collapse of the Star League, since pirates couldn't penetrate through to the core of the Concordat.
 

[Archangel]

They also have several safe havens and were not involved in the Succession wars.

While they might not have gotten directly involved in the Succession Wars, they did suffer many of the same crippling effects due to the fall of the Star League and the loss of technology.  And even though they did not get directly involved in the Succession they did engage in warfare, in particular against their former and future allies the Magistracy.  Like every state, worlds were lost as terraforming equipment failed and billions died due to lack of food and lack of trade.

We also know, by word of god, that while intersteller commerce is a thing, staples aren't shipped-- so there is absolutely no, none, zip, nada, way that you can explain that a home world with a population of over four billion and A ratings that cannot build even older jumpships.

Easily explained.  They don't have a source of Germanium which is vital in the manufacture of KF drives.  Just having an A rating doesn't mean that all the appropriate skills, resources and funds are available at the same time.  Not to mention that its not a simple matter of building a shipyard and then pumping out JumpShips, one needs to build a supply chain that can provide all the parts needed which may even entail building orbital factories to manufacture parts that need to be manufactured away from the detrimental effects of gravity.

This is especially the case when they do have a dropship industry and a navel history.  The fact of the matter is that by any even partially realistic look at technology and social progress, the TC should be ahead of the IS by 3025, benefiting from an unparalleled period of peace that came after the collapse of the Star League, since pirates couldn't penetrate through to the core of the Concordat.

The only way they would have gotten ahead of the Inner Sphere technology-wise is if they large amounts of money in R&D.  Simply having an excellent educational system doesn't induce the development of new technologies, it simply brings people up to the standard.  One not only needs innovative minds but they need to be able to get in contact with those who have the resources to help develop their ideas and bring them to life and be able to persuade them to back their ideas.  And while it certainly reassured its citizens and make them happy, the excellent social services system maintained by the TC was sure to be a huge draw on their budget, which along with the military and other government outlays limited what was available for R&D.

[Korzon77]

While they might not have gotten directly involved in the Succession Wars, they did suffer many of the same crippling effects due to the fall of the Star League and the loss of technology.  And even though they did not get directly involved in the Succession they did engage in warfare, in particular against their former and future allies the Magistracy.  Like every state, worlds were lost as terraforming equipment failed and billions died due to lack of food and lack of trade.

Which is a short term problem at best.  In fact, the loss of the trade could benefit them, driving local businesses.  The loss of pepole on planets due to technological failure A. isn't going to hurt the TC that badly, not given that the vast majority of their industry is on the core garden worlds. If anything, those deaths benefit the TC, reducing the need to maintain marginal worlds.  As for wars, they had one major conflict with the Magistracy-- a conflict which largely puttered out without any strikes on anyone's core areas. 

Easily explained.  They don't have a source of Germanium which is vital in the manufacture of KF drives.  Just having an A rating doesn't mean that all the appropriate skills, resources and funds are available at the same time.  Not to mention that its not a simple matter of building a shipyard and then pumping out JumpShips, one needs to build a supply chain that can provide all the parts needed which may even entail building orbital factories to manufacture parts that need to be manufactured away from the detrimental effects of gravity.

All of which the TC has.  The core worlds have a population ranging from 6-10 billion.  In other words, the TC in say, 3000 has an industrial plant, economy and knowledge base larger than that of the old Terran Alliance at the beginning of its drive to colonize the human sphere.  in other words, we're asked to see how someone couldn't build a jump drive when they have a bigger economy than Terra did-- at the time when Terra first started to expand. That was, of course with the added problem that the Terran's didn't know how to design jump ships, as in "we don't even know if this theory works."  The TC does.
Germanium isn't a big issue-- its the 50th most common element and in any case the concordat was able to extract enough before the Reunification war to build a fleet bigger than anyone other than the SLDF...so unless they've lost all those maps...

The only way they would have gotten ahead of the Inner Sphere technology-wise is if they large amounts of money in R&D.  Simply having an excellent educational system doesn't induce the development of new technologies, it simply brings people up to the standard.  One not only needs innovative minds but they need to be able to get in contact with those who have the resources to help develop their ideas and bring them to life and be able to persuade them to back their ideas.  And while it certainly reassured its citizens and make them happy, the excellent social services system maintained by the TC was sure to be a huge draw on their budget, which along with the military and other government outlays limited what was available for R&D.

These are both incorrect.  First of all, an excellent educational system doesn't just bring people up to the standard-- it creates those innovative minds. And again: A larger economy than the Terran economy prior to the disapora.  They have all the resources they need.    As for the social systems, that is not the case-- in fact, and without getting into RW politics too much, a robust social system can actually spur investment due to the confidence that having a social safety net gives. It can especially spur low level investment, the sort that helped create companies like Apple and Microsoft, by making it possible for small start ups to get investors.

There is absolutely no reason-- no conceivable reason, why the TC as written isn't doing very well.  Any even remotely realistic view of technogical and industrial progress should have them churning out warships and jumpships.  Unfortunately, this is another case where a (very misguided IMO) adherence to canon leaves us dealing with the evils of Fasanomics, which are largely the product of a setting that often indicated that mechs weren't hard to make-- they were impossible to make without automated factories and that by and large the worlds of man were looking omre like ":"Mad MAx" with giant robots than a functioning economy. 

Personally, if I had any ability (which I don't) a future edition of battletech would take a "kill it with fire" approach to canon.  Either drastically increase the size of the forces, or dramatically decrease the number of garden worlds and habitable worlds.  Because what we have now in terms of talkign about technological and economic progress is more fantastical than the idea of FTL drives.

[solmanian]

Technology isn't a linear thing. If you separate two cultures for a millennia, they won't develop the same technologies.
The clans are a bad example for this, because they did actually focus on making linear improvements; taking SL tech, and improving it performance, rather than innovate. Though they did invent HarJal, and Iron wombs.

The deep periphery is a better example. Sure the IS suffered  from stagnation in the SW, but the deep periphery is considered regressed even by SW standards.

[Korzon77]

But that gets to fiat level changes-- ISP 3 has worlds with populations large enough to sustain a massive technological base, but never goes anywhere.

Now again, the reason is that the focus in Btech is the inner sphere and immediate neighbors-- having someone in the far periphery, say to the size of the TC startsto hurt that. And from a gaming perspective, or rather a game *publisher* perspective, it makes sense-- they' have a ton of stuff to print out just to cover already mentioned eras.

But froma more general perspective-- it makes no sense.  It's saying that some magical force keeps the far periphery down, even though worlds there, some of which have been colonized since before the star league, missed the reunification war, the Amaris civil war and the disorder after it, and were also so far away that they were unlikely to be found by pirates, which is the next big go-to for explaining why the periphery is unable to progress.

[Offworlder]

But that gets to fiat level changes-- ISP 3 has worlds with populations large enough to sustain a massive technological base, but never goes anywhere.

Now again, the reason is that the focus in Btech is the inner sphere and immediate neighbors-- having someone in the far periphery, say to the size of the TC startsto hurt that. And from a gaming perspective, or rather a game *publisher* perspective, it makes sense-- they' have a ton of stuff to print out just to cover already mentioned eras.

But froma more general perspective-- it makes no sense.  It's saying that some magical force keeps the far periphery down, even though worlds there, some of which have been colonized since before the star league, missed the reunification war, the Amaris civil war and the disorder after it, and were also so far away that they were unlikely to be found by pirates, which is the next big go-to for explaining why the periphery is unable to progress.

Totally agree! Frankly even in the deep periphery, one is bound to get 1 genius per generation who actually pushes tech forward. Furthermore, if there is something very interesting about the deep periphery is that many of its planets are quite 'heavily' populated (say with a population akin to Brazil or so). So even if the educational system was lacking in coverage, there still would be some advancement over time - to make a historical example - akin to the renaissance in Italy. Additionally the deep periphery is not normally troubled by constant warfare or planet killing pirate raids, and therefore more prone to prosper over time.

Actually, the idea that shipyards are difficult to come by is also rather silly. When the Clans came knocking, everyone and his brother built additional slips to engage in a massive shipbuilding spree. And if germanium is the bottleneck, please note that some of the best sources of the material actually lie in the periphery (the Marians and that pirate mine/shipyard which I forgot its name).

To be perfectly honest, the scenario whereby the periphery became stagnant can only be attributable to them going dumb coz they lost contact with mother earth ::) However, the same people are still able to maintain advanced stuff almost indefinitely, almost at will - which is kind of contradictory.

[rebs]

To be perfectly honest, the scenario whereby the periphery became stagnant can only be attributable to them going dumb coz they lost contact with mother earth ::) However, the same people are still able to maintain advanced stuff almost indefinitely, almost at will - which is kind of contradictory.

Or...  we haven't been told the whole story yet. 

A mercenary force stumbled upon the Auxumite Providence (and the Union of Samoyedic Colonies) and agreed to keep their location a secret.  IE's expedition was next to visit the region and may have agreed to under report their strength, leaving us all with the laughable impression that AP has only one antique jumpship and no way to repair it.

Not only does this succeed in painting the Auxumite Providence as weak, but also as a place that is too far and has too little to benefit any potential IS conqueror. 

Not to argue really, but if the information we receive seems contradictory, I like to examine it and see if perhaps it isn't purposefully so. And then I speculate wildly about why that would be so.  It keeps the world going around...    ;)

[Archangel]

Totally agree! Frankly even in the deep periphery, one is bound to get 1 genius per generation who actually pushes tech forward. Furthermore, if there is something very interesting about the deep periphery is that many of its planets are quite 'heavily' populated (say with a population akin to Brazil or so). So even if the educational system was lacking in coverage, there still would be some advancement over time - to make a historical example - akin to the renaissance in Italy. Additionally the deep periphery is not normally troubled by constant warfare or planet killing pirate raids, and therefore more prone to prosper over time.

Do you have ISP3?  It provides several examples of how technology can stagnate or be lost.

War - Just because they don't suffer from the Succession Wars doesn't mean periphery planets don't have that limit their technological development or causes them to lose technologies.  Example - Alexandrian Covenant (early).  War, or the threat thereof, has also frequently been a driving force behind technological development including computers, communications technologies, rockets, medicine and airplanes.

Culture/Religion - Societies occasionally develop where technological innovation is not a pressing concern.  Examples - Union of Samoyedic Colonies, Society of St. Andreas, Dante and Alexandrian Covenant (late).  Detroit, possibly the most advanced world in the Periphery, was founded

Environmental - Environmental issues can limit technological development or drive it in a specific direction.  Examples - New Delphi Compact, Frobisher and Midden.

Lack of specialists or a basic understanding of underlying technologies - One can't develop more advanced technologies without a basic understanding of the underlying technologies that make it possible aka you can't go from horse drawn carriages to JumpShips without developing at least some of the technologies that lie in between.  Example - Axumites

Other factors:
Motivation - The desire or need to travel into space has to outweigh the cost of developing the technology for the effort to be made to develop it.  We have known for decades that we live in a world of limited resources but we have several curtailed our efforts to seek new sources off-world.

Matter of timing - Sometimes geniuses are born before their time aka before their theories can be made possible whether due to technological limitations or the astronomical cost of development. Examples - Michaelangelo, Professor Kearny and Professor Fujita.

Lack of raw/vital materials - Lack of vital raw materials can easily limit technological development.  Only a small percentage of worlds have ready supplies of Germanium without which JumpShip construction is impossible.  Even if Germanium is available in the system, the locals may lack the ability (or technology) to find it or mine it.  Examples -

Actually, the idea that shipyards are difficult to come by is also rather silly. When the Clans came knocking, everyone and his brother built additional slips to engage in a massive shipbuilding spree. And if germanium is the bottleneck, please note that some of the best sources of the material actually lie in the periphery (the Marians and that pirate mine/shipyard which I forgot its name).

Even the Inner Sphere powers, with the exception of Necromo shipyards, didn't build entire shipyards from scratch, they expanded existing ones if they didn't simple reassign existing slips to WarShip production.

[Korzon77]

Except none of those make sense given the history of the Inner Sphere--which evidently didn't have those problems.  There's no magic perhiphery barrier that makes everyone get stupid-- and beyond that the deep periphery has many reasons why it should be more successful than the IS, starting with the lack of genocidal wars breaking out every century of so.  Most of the Great Houses started from small explorations, linking up with other worlds that originally had equally small populations and yet grew big enough to form the IS.  The TC started with under (well under) a million people. 

The question isn't why haven't some deep periphery powers failed, it is why, with all the advantages of the Inner Sphere and without the massive conflicts that keep dragging powers down, have *none* achieve the same level of success that, say the OA or TC did-- remembering that the only reason those two powers didn't continue growing was a 20 year genocidal war launched against tehm. (and the war was genocidal-- the reunification war flat out stat4s the in a number of caess Fourlough's attacks resuled in hundreds of millions dead per world). 

There is one answer-- writer fiat.

[Archangel]

Except none of those make sense given the history of the Inner Sphere--which evidently didn't have those problems.  There's no magic perhiphery barrier that makes everyone get stupid-- and beyond that the deep periphery has many reasons why it should be more successful than the IS, starting with the lack of genocidal wars breaking out every century of so.  Most of the Great Houses started from small explorations, linking up with other worlds that originally had equally small populations and yet grew big enough to form the IS.  The TC started with under (well under) a million people. 

The question isn't why haven't some deep periphery powers failed, it is why, with all the advantages of the Inner Sphere and without the massive conflicts that keep dragging powers down, have *none* achieve the same level of success that, say the OA or TC did-- remembering that the only reason those two powers didn't continue growing was a 20 year genocidal war launched against tehm. (and the war was genocidal-- the reunification war flat out stat4s the in a number of caess Fourlough's attacks resuled in hundreds of millions dead per world). 

One, none of the deep periphery states have the population that the close periphery states have since fewer groups chose to venture that far out into space.  Two, none of the deep periphery states have a HPG network to coordinate research projects between multiple planets.  Three, the three most populous deep periphery states have a major factor limiting their technological progress.  In the Hansa, the feuds between rival trade families not only limits cooperation but occasionally spills into sabotage, assassination, raids and the occasional war.  The New Delphi Compact has no interest in interstellar technology out of fear of exporting their disease and inflicting it on other worlds.  The religious overtones and the occasional coup in the Alexandrian Convenant limits technological progress.  The last time a government official proposed fixing up one of their grounded DropShips, the entire patriarchal government was overthrown and killed and replaced with a matriarchal society.  Fourth, the genocidal aspects were limited to the Outworlds and Taurian fronts and were especially bad during Furlough's tenure in both zones.  The Magistracy suffered far less as the Star League forces continued to heed the Ares Conventions.  Fifth, the Star League did help them rebuild after the war (into a Star League approved society).
Two, the three largest deep Periphery states, the Hansa, New Delphi Compact and the Alexandrian Covenant, have had their own share of internal conflict as well as the occasional pirate raid.  Within the Hansa, despite officially being at peace, the various trade families are constantly seeking to weaken their rivals.  Building a shipyard woul The New Delphi Compact has the Within the Alexandrian Covenant, the after the RW, the Star League did help them rebuild (into a Star League-approved society)

There is one answer-- writer fiat.

The entire BT universe is writer fiat.  They have provided explanations but it is your choice whether you accept them or not.  Personally, I don't care for the explanations the author provided for why the several Clans acted against their firmly established character.

[rebs]

Not the F word!

It does stand to reason that human colonies that are packed closer together (like the IS) will experience greater progress due to their ability to support/exploit each other through trade and the sharing of knowledge.  And also that those with less contact with the outside will more often than not stagnate.  Not to mention, those colonies that face a daily survival threat mostly due to their lack of necessary technologies such as can be found in the Canopian Ruins, the Outwords Wastes, etc, simply have their hands full existing.

Think about Maslow and his hierarchy of needs applied to large groups of humans attempting survival.  If you can barely meet your own basic needs to feed yourself, to protect yourself from ruffians like pirates, or to have a comfortable and secure place to rest whilst unconscious and therefore most vulnerable, you are going to have a very freaking hard time building an orbital slip and construction facilities with which to construct warships. 

[jklantern]

  If you can barely meet your own basic needs to feed yourself, to protect yourself from ruffians like pirates, or to have a comfortable and secure place to rest whilst unconscious and therefore most vulnerable, you are going to have a very freaking hard time building an orbital slip and construction facilities with which to construct warships.

Really?  I just did that last week.

The HMS Mitchell Avellar's Raging Pimp Hand is coming along quite nicely.   :D

[Korzon77]

Not the F word!

It does stand to reason that human colonies that are packed closer together (like the IS) will experience greater progress due to their ability to support/exploit each other through trade and the sharing of knowledge.  And also that those with less contact with the outside will more often than not stagnate.  Not to mention, those colonies that face a daily survival threat mostly due to their lack of necessary technologies such as can be found in the Canopian Ruins, the Outwords Wastes, etc, simply have their hands full existing.

Think about Maslow and his hierarchy of needs applied to large groups of humans attempting survival.  If you can barely meet your own basic needs to feed yourself, to protect yourself from ruffians like pirates, or to have a comfortable and secure place to rest whilst unconscious and therefore most vulnerable, you are going to have a very freaking hard time building an orbital slip and construction facilities with which to construct warships.

I think the Taurians did fairly well. And the conditions your talking about existed right after teh first diasporac and the withdrawal of the Alliance and abandonment of the colonies...and yet from them we get the Lyrans, Davions, etc, etc. Especially the Taurians who remained hidden and thus cut off from much of intersteller society without trade or knoweldge-- and yet managed to produce the largest warfleet outside of the SLDF. 

Also, the fact is that most of these words exist at the 21st century level tech. That's the low level tech (and it's even flat out mentioned in the outworlds wastes). The worlds beyond in the deep periphery have populations of hundreds of millions and a tech that allows them to dedicate much of their energies to industry in stead of agriculture.  They also have something that is absolutely vital for intersteller commerce...

And is an antique technology.  By 3025 Jump ships have been around for nearly 1,000 years.

Let's rephrase that, nearly *10 centuries*. It's also vital. Oddly enough I have yet to hear about any nation forgetting how to build steam engines.  It's almost as if...such knowledge stays around. And no. Comstar does not have the ability to suppress that information. Not unless Comstar's head isn't the Master, but Lucifer Morningstar.

Any justifications for why there are no major powers in the deep periphery are wrong, full stop end of argument. The only reason for that is that the PTB made a very fiat decision and a very *dump* decision that has harmed the setting, which is basically to take a protractor out and say: beyond this range from terra, there shall be no great powers. Everyone coming here gets hit by the stupid field, unless they're techno barbarian clans.*  Not every world has to be successful, but enough would-- as we saw with the history of the Inner Sphere, which was, after all, once the periphery as far as earth was concerned.  Those worlds, enough had little problem expanding and building and many of them existed in just the same condition as the periphery.

*which is the amusing thing-- if there's anyone ho should have regressed, it's the Clans. Their entire society is basically set up to fail. 

[CungrVanck]

The key reason why we do not have any deep periphery powers is story plot / writer's choice.  I have no problems with this personally as the universe has been going smashingly.  Until one exists, I can just create one for my table if the needs arise.

However, if the writer's ever needed to build a deep periphery power, then they don't have to break anything.  Look at this timetable from the in-universe look at expansion from Terra as stated in the original Star League sourcebook.

2021 - First Fusion Generator built
2108 - First Interstellar voyage
2116 - First Interstellar colony
2168 - 108 registered interstellar colonies

So in 147 years, Terra goes from not having fusion technology on one planet to having fusion-powered interstellar starships traveling to 108 star systems.  They become an interstellar civilization in 87 years.  Now consider that the theories put forth for the K-F Drive were considered to be a joke for decades in-universe.  So they could have potentially expanded faster than that had they recognized the science as valid.

Now consider the Axumite Providence as an example of where a Deep Periphery power could potentially arise from.  In 3085, they already have fusion power, interplanetary travel, and interstellar travel between 12 systems.  While they may not be able to build a jumpship yet, they have the resources (12 systems), tech (Fusion and regular interplanetary travel) and the knowledge (they have a working jumpship so they know it can be done and still have the equations / know how to keep it working over centuries).

If the Providence ever wanted to expand their colonies, conquer neighboring worlds (The Samoyed colonies are not that far away) or a dire crisis required more interstellar transport arose, it is not that far fetched to think they could have built a shipyard to build primitive jumpships.

Ponder this......the time line is now at 3145 or 60 years after our last information describing the Providence in 3085.  That's more than two thirds the time it took Terra to build a ship and they had to learn every step of the way while the Providence have a working model.

If you were to jump the time line to 3250, then you add another 105 years to that.  That gets you 165 years...or more time than it took Terra to colonize 108 worlds.

So it is not impossible to have some existing nation state or an unknown state (Further out) to expand and become a major player that could effect the story line.  This universe covers centuries of time!

We just have to wait until the plot / story needs a new empire to exist and BOOM....we will get one :)

[rebs]

Really?  I just did that last week.

I know the feeling sometimes.  But I still haven't made much headway on my own orbital slip.  It can barely fit a hot water tank shell right now.  :-[

But aside from that we all know that the Periphery will never emerge from its dilapidated state without folks like you there to hold back the ruffians.  And pizza.  Because the Auxumites had to stop using their ride for delivery after their dad saw all the bumps and dings that were getting on it...  I guess it's like their only one or something.  ;)

[Korzon77]

If you want to have a good reason why jumpships are rare you could od it very simply-- instead of Germanium, assume that some or all of a KF core comes from elements in the "island of stability" a group fo transuranic elements that are,by theory at least, thought to be stable. However creating them in industrial amounts would require a ot of power (think plating most of mercury in solar panels) and would be, to put it mildly the work of a great deal of mega engineering.  That might also be a good way to increase comstars power-- the only remaining source for these elements is the mercury refinery, which is owned by Comstar and that, more than anything else keeps earth safe-- nobody wants to risk interstellar commerce.

[Archangel]

How about native Americans in both North and South America?  In some places they had extensive empires and developed some pretty impressive architecture but their technology was centuries behind the Europeans when Columbus arrived in the New World.

Regardless, you can believe what you want to believe.  I will accept what little the writers provide us (not that I will necessarily like it or completely agree with it).

[Offworlder]

The basic problem here is that the Periphery is kind of destined to fail. Sometimes a state is built up only to be torn down again.

Having said that, some things simply do not make much sense. Taking the Hansa for example, we know that they have extensive merchant fleets. Yet, despite commerce being their lifeblood, they seem to have no shipyard (unless one pops up in Bremen which is kind of the radar for all intents and purposes). Yet a tiny dysfunctional state like RWR Outpost 27 does have a ramshackle affair in place and so do the belt pirates.

Another thing about the Hansa is that they barter for stuff and have no currency. Really, in a state living through commerce? I mean if this was the Ramses Egypt is one thing, but we are kindly far removed from that state.

And btw, yes the Hansa did experience some upheavals but nothing to threaten its existence until the coming of clan raids just after the Reaving. So its not that they had to dedicate much of whatever they produced just for survival. Now they may have to do so, but it was not the case for a couple of centuries.