Author Topic: Is there such a thing as too much transport?  (Read 2641 times)

Daryk

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #30 on: 27 November 2023, 20:08:42 »
That Pegasus also has a 1-ton turret with nothing in it, just saying... ;)

Dapper Apples

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #31 on: 27 November 2023, 20:09:09 »
Megamek makes a distinction between Cargo space and Infantry space; the Pegasus uses cargo space.  The program won't let you put infantry into cargo space, although in design terms either space converts 1-to-1 to the other.

I made a custom Pegasus in meklab with the correct infantry bay so it'd work in the game.  Same bv, performace, etc.

Hellraiser

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #32 on: 28 November 2023, 14:11:34 »
It goes against RW Logistics where there is clearly a difference between fold down seats & head rests, etc etc v/s Square Walls & Cargo Straps, but its better for game simplicity that way, though would think MM way makes more RW sense.
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paladin2019

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #33 on: 28 November 2023, 14:30:23 »
Not really. A C-130, for example, carries all its seats all the time, whether installed or stored. The crew can reconfigure as necessary. A C-17 always has its jump seats installed along the walls but can make them inaccessible with the manner of cargo loading. Re-configuring purely for troop transport does require outside support by installing troop or parachutist seating pallets, however. Even the humble M113's benches, while fixed in place, can be folded out of the way in Top's track so he can load it up with beans 'n bullets for the boys. Cargo is cargo and butts with seats are cargo.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #34 on: 28 November 2023, 16:16:12 »
I don't disagree, but, what I'm wondering then is, can the unit carry MORE cargo if the troop equipment wasn't there?

I feel like folded up 113 seats still take up some space coming out from the wall where you then can't stick boxes as wide, but, I do freely admit that its been a few decades since I was in any military transport of any kind.
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paladin2019

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #35 on: 28 November 2023, 16:31:45 »
Not to an extent that matters when shipping boxed or palletized stuff (or really anything in a combat vehicle). The boxes and pallets are the LIMFAC there, as well as you DO NOT want cargo against the fuselage walls of an aircraft. That is what we call a BADIDEATM.


(And, of course, BT measures cargo by weight not cube, but that's not your question.)
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #36 on: 28 November 2023, 16:37:05 »
What does cargo against the fuselage wall do?
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paladin2019

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #37 on: 28 November 2023, 16:39:14 »
Catastrophic: It shifts and goes through the wall.

Practical: It also prevents movement past the cargo and access to flight systems that run along the walls, things you need to do or have access to in flight.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #38 on: 28 November 2023, 17:11:21 »
(And, of course, BT measures cargo by weight not cube, but that's not your question.)

Yeah, the more I think about it, a Maxim is huge & the OG 3-Ton bay is fluffed as circular so all soldiers face each other for moral.

You could probably line every wall with seats WITH troopers in them & still have a big fat area in the center with tiedown points for pallets of cargo more than the 3T allotment unless it was really light stuff like TP or towels.
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paladin2019

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #39 on: 28 November 2023, 17:27:59 »
Then you have to do more CombatMathTM to figure out how much the double cargo slows down the vehicle with its 165T engine (with +35T hover efficiency).

Yeah, it's huge. Not quite LCAC huge (it lacks an 80T cargo bay), but definitely bigger than an AMTRAK.
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Fallen_Raven

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #40 on: 28 November 2023, 17:35:15 »
I've tried big transports a few times with mixed results. In the average pick-up game style skirmish they sucked. They're too slow at deploying your infantry in force, and they have to spend several turns loitering in high priority areas where they will be targeted. Even the "give them a better target" plan doesn't help when you put that big a target on a relatively fragile vehicle. It just doesn't do enough versus taking multiple transports and rushing.

But in a few games played on water heavy maps with marshes and islands, the ability to drop single BA Squads/foot platoons in the only cover proved potent. A single Maxim II and a company of foot infantry can quickly contest all the most important area and position spotters, all for less BV than most light 'mechs. And with all the water slowing down movement, the limitation on deployment was less problematic than the ability to move over water was an advantage. Battle Armor proved even better thanks to the combination of movement and firepower, but the BV ratio was less favorable. The same tactic could have been done with multiple smaller transports, but the BV difference was worth the attempt.

In short, I generally found big transports to be less useful than multiple small ones except in scenarios where I had a significant advantage in movement and/or positioning from the start.
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Wolf72

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #41 on: 28 November 2023, 20:31:13 »
That Pegasus also has a 1-ton turret with nothing in it, just saying... ;)

Wait, what ...  :huh: It's a legacy now, gives it a bit of head-scratching character. ... or easier to reconfigure with a decent vehicle bay.

also ... wait, 1 ton? that's up to a 10 ton capacity for equipment!
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Daryk

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #42 on: 28 November 2023, 20:32:08 »
I pointed it out the TPTB... no response yet... :/

Hellraiser

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #43 on: 29 November 2023, 13:28:22 »
I'd say they could just move the tonnage to Cargo but then you also have to redistribute the armor too.

Does it have a Fusion Engine?
Maybe drop turret by 1/2 ton to add a SL keeping Cargo/Armor the same?  IDK.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #44 on: 29 November 2023, 13:29:56 »
Support vehicles can do this but not combat vehicles. Stacking limits still apply, however.
Wasn't there something about "Large" units being able to go into adjacent hexes?
I feel like the King Karnov was used as an example or something like that.
So a big unit could, in theory, drop 13 infantry at once, 1 in the hex + 12 more surrounding it at 2 each.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #45 on: 29 November 2023, 14:29:07 »
Please keep all customs talk out of this thread. Thank you.
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Wolf72

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #46 on: 29 November 2023, 17:03:16 »
Wasn't there something about "Large" units being able to go into adjacent hexes?
I feel like the King Karnov was used as an example or something like that.
So a big unit could, in theory, drop 13 infantry at once, 1 in the hex + 12 more surrounding it at 2 each.

I was thinking 6 units max, or one per hex facing.  Do you mean one additional hex beyond the ones the unit is occupying?
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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #47 on: 29 November 2023, 17:12:03 »
I pointed it out the TPTB... no response yet... :/

there is a low interest in "fixing" units with weird but not illegal construction issues

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Daryk

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #48 on: 29 November 2023, 18:21:23 »
I'm not sure it's legal to install a 1-ton turret with zero tons of weapons in it (viz. Tech Manual, page 98), but if they want to ignore it, that's TPTB's prerogative.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #49 on: 29 November 2023, 18:29:39 »
From the context, I think it was a case of a vehicle with a turret was given a field modification that removed the weaponry from the turret.
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Daryk

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #50 on: 29 November 2023, 19:01:37 »
Which could have more easily been accomplished by removing the turret completely.

Hellraiser

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #51 on: 29 November 2023, 19:37:26 »
Odd thing is, where do they get 12 tons from?

Medium Laser, Heatsinks, Power Amp = 4.1 (rounded to 4.5)
SRM6s + Ammo = 7-8?

My math shows 11.5 or 12.5 for Cargo based on ammo since I can't recall ammo load.

Either way that is 1/2 ton off from the 12 in Cargo.

So did they adjust armor by 1/2 ton?

I feel like the RS might be inaccurate just based on the description alone.
« Last Edit: 29 November 2023, 22:50:32 by Hellraiser »
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #52 on: 29 November 2023, 22:13:03 »
Wouldn't be the first time.
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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #53 on: 30 November 2023, 01:31:19 »
the cargo pegasus is .5 tons underweight. per the construction rules, the turret must account for the weight of the equipment in it. since this guy has none mounted there, the turret is weightless.

TM pg 98
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Turrets: Like the Main Gun location on a ProtoMech, turrets are optional components available to all Combat Vehicle types covered by these rules except for VTOLs. If installed, a turret automatically receives the same number of internal structure points as the vehicle’s other locations, but does not directly affect the structure tonnage. Turrets instead add weight in the form of an independent “turret tonnage” equal to 10 percent of the total mass of all weapons and equipment mounted in them (rounded up). As this decision may not be made until the designer is ready to add weapons and other equipment to the Combat Vehicle design, the designer need not establish the turret weight at this point, but should decide whether or not the vehicle is to have a turret. (See the rules regarding OmniVehicles below for an exception.)

at no point do the rules say you can't have a turret if you never mount any equipment there. i can only conclude the vehicle was designed based on this assumption.

so it's weird, but not illegal.

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Daryk

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #54 on: 30 November 2023, 04:13:19 »
Ah, so zero-ton turrets ARE legal.  Thanks!

Col Toda

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #55 on: 30 November 2023, 04:48:22 »
Most such transports are fragile to motive crits . My experience is a Maxim moves 10 drops a squad of battle armor and gets shot at by a bunch of LRM  launchers with iSwarm ammo . Maybe 1 LRM hits and does a motive crit but nearly all the LRM misses swarm to the battle armor or infantry in the hex and potentially just kills the transported units . If mobile the Maxim moves to another hex and drops another squad of battle armor "  repeat process " . This anti Elemental tactic is best used the round they dismount . Alot of Custom Karnov ect have been incorporating Chaff pods or Vehicle grenade lauchers with chaff ammo because of this trend . The above tactic  is ment to capture an abandoned immobilized APC more than destroy them . Whoever wins the field tends to pick up immobilized infantry transport repairs it and fields it again. The most important function of infantry in Battletech is to survive a winning battle and permit immediate salvage operations on the field.  If no infantry survives then the Salvage of the combat is vulnerable to a counterattack just for that Salvage . The second is Area Denial which means the infantry is on fast transport to get in place and dug in before combat happens.  The last tends to be rear area security.  Not to diminish  whatever damage they do but those tend to be the facts . If you are out of position and you know you have to withdraw and regroup for a counterattack Infantry and battle armor should be your primary targets as you leave . Nothing can be held long or short term effectively without it .

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Re: Is there such a thing as too much transport?
« Reply #56 on: 30 November 2023, 09:39:08 »
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