Calderon Protectorate - the true sprit of Taurus

[Neufeld]

Well, since I did not find a thread for the Calderon Protectorate, I decided to start on.

Regarding the FM3085, there are two things of note:

- Primitive Toro production.

- The diplomatic ties that are getting built between the Protectorate, Fronc Reaches, and Filtvelt Coalition.

[Baldur Mekorig]

Dont forget the tine Fiefdom of Randis selling them mechs, exchanging warriors and buying them some Star Daggers.  O0

[blackjack]

Is there any more information about industries or military units. Have not got 3085 yet. Final reckoning has some info as to them but nothing concrete.

Leader: Erik Martens-Calderon

Planets:
Capital: Erods Escape
Marknick
Gaul
Diik
Oscar
Last Post

Possible Mechs
wasp
stinger
locust
commando
hot-3f hatchetman
griffin
t-bolt
archer
warhammer
maurader

[Øystein]

Don't forget the WarShip..

With regards,
Øystein

[Deadborder]

Not to be a party-pooper, but I wouldn't get your hopes up too much. The Dark Age "Touring the Stars" article on the TC had it and the CP stuck in a decades-long low-level civil war that had done nothing other than drain the two nations.

[Trajan Helmer]

Way to throw molasses on the wet blanket. :P

[ShockaTime]

- Primitive Toro production.

I was excited when I rad this. I always the that the toro was a cool mech.

[jklantern]

- The diplomatic ties that are getting built between the Protectorate, Fronc Reaches, and Filtvelt Coalition.

Hell yeah!  Go for it, Team Tiny!  For Great Justice!

[Flaresnake]

Not to be a party-pooper, but I wouldn't get your hopes up too much. The Dark Age "Touring the Stars" article on the TC had it and the CP stuck in a decades-long low-level civil war that had done nothing other than drain the two nations.

and thats bad how? the TC can't win and the CP don't want a military solution.

[Deadborder]

and thats bad how? the TC can't win and the CP don't want a military solution.

It's bad because both of them are spending time, money and resources on fighting a pointless war that they could be instead using on rebuilding from the last pointless war. Neither of them can afford to fight, yet both of them are.

The (small amount) of DA info on the two indicated that the TC-CP are pretty much the arse end of the universe.

[elizibar]

The (small amount) of DA info on the two indicated that the TC-CP are pretty much the arse end of the universe.

So the Taurian region is the same as it always was?

[Trajan Helmer]

Shhhh, it gives us a simple place for the 3025 grognards to go.

[blackjack]

They are honing the horns is all. Grognards only pass thru. They head farther out into the unknown... They mumble something about good old days & the Planet Grognardia. Seat of the Grognardian empire.

[blackjack]

There isnt much in the way of fluff that I am aware of for Erik Martens-Calderon being any type of mechwarrior???  Maybe some time training/bonding  with the Brotherhood of Randis would bode well for bringing the Tauren empire back together. Taurus proper would gain some respect for him as a warrior & have faith in the Calderon blood line protecting the realm.

[Baldur Mekorig]

IIRC, he is a Battle Armor pilot, with his own smugled Asterion. It is in Masters and Minions if i am no wrong.

[blackjack]

Dang it I don't have M&M. Not sure that battle armor is sufficient for the leader of the protectorate. A proper upgrade to a Tauren designed/manufactured  mech might be in order.

[Sharpnel]

You can always put him in a retrotech Toro or Firebee ;)

[Baldur Mekorig]

You can always put him in a retrotech Toro or Firebee ;)

 Or Dervish or Hawkwolf. Randis sell all of the later three to the Protectorate.

[MadVoorpak]

I love the CP purely because of the Toro.

I likes the mech.

[sillybrit]

Dang it I don't have M&M. Not sure that battle armor is sufficient for the leader of the protectorate. A proper upgrade to a Tauren designed/manufactured  mech might be in order.

It shows that he's a man of refined sensibilites who knows that Battle Armor is not as clumsy or random as a 'Mech... an elegant weapon, for a more civilized day.

[blackjack]

But you have to consider how someone with "refined sensibilites " would be viewed in Texas....

[sillybrit]

I see a future involving tar and feathers.

[Isanova]

I suspect a lot of the success of the Calderon Protectorate is due to mild support from the Far Lookers groups.

I wouldn't be surprised if, in the future, CP-forces raid Detroit and make off with some of their production for the year. (not that there's much there worth taking)

[Stormfury]

I think it can be more traced to not inciting Federated Suns reprisal attacks and their only real opponent- the Taurian Concordat- being in a rather dire position position post-Jihad as a result of its strategic decisions during it.

[blackjack]

Very true. I'm very interested in where they go with the plot line. But it would be a shame to not have a Calderon at the helm.  My hope is that they heal the Concordat Make nice with the FS & prepare to face the CC/MC onslaught together.

[Medron Pryde]

I don't see the MC ever doing an invasion of the TC.

The CC?  Maybe.  But not the MC.  Yeah, yeah, I know where things are going there, but I just don't see the MC getting into a second war with the Taurians.  I mean, the only war they ever fought ended rather quick and they decided to stop it.  I just don't seem them starting up again.

Periphery Bums must stick together, even IF one of you is using a House for all you've got.  ;)

[Stormfury]

The Magistracy is considerably better off militarily than either the Concordat or Protectorate. If it decided to make an attack, the outcome would be unlikely to favour the (former) Taurians.

During the Jihad, the TDF was comprehensively beaten by a single, unsupported mercenary unit operating behind its lines, and then had another object lesson delivered by a battered AFFS. There's not a lot to suggest the TDF would perform all that well, especially since the Magistracy's armed forces were revamped and under the leadership of someone with a perfect understanding of every flaw in the TDF and insider knowledge of the Protectorate to boot. As things progress to the Dark Age, the Magistracy grows more and more entwined with the CapCon, and we know that the Capellans are the pre-eminent power of that period, with a military rivalled only by the AFFS but apparently greater reserves and a better infrastructure. The Magistracy stands to benefit a great deal from that.

However, neither the Concordat nor Protectorate really have anything the Magistracy wants. They certainly don't have anything it needs.

[Neufeld]

However, neither the Concordat nor Protectorate really have anything the Magistracy wants. They certainly don't have anything it needs.

And neither does they have anything that the Capellans needs or wants.

[Isanova]

I think it can be more traced to not inciting Federated Suns reprisal attacks and their only real opponent- the Taurian Concordat- being in a rather dire position position post-Jihad as a result of its strategic decisions during it.

The TC, even after warring with the FedSuns, Roughriders going all Mac Attack on them, Samantha turned to glass and militant bickering, still have a decent bit of heavy military industry at their back, and near as we can tell didn't lose a lot of their jumpship fleet either.

The CP has retrotech mechs, a really weak retro-fighter, and from what I understand a decent BA factory, as well as likely a good spy network in Taurus home. OTOH they benefit from distance and the presumed neutrality of most former-colony worlds, which might be political (if the TDF go full-warpath they risk turning the rest of the colonies against them?)

It's a nicely precarious position where the TDF can fight a good war against the CP, but face a lot of risk in doing so. Even if they did so, they would face a struggle in maintaining control over far-flung colonies (as they always have) not to mention a warship to overcome. The big question of is-it-worth-it comes down to how much the CP worlds really can manage to develop themselves, and how strongly the TC can develop their defenses against renewed CC-FS aggression.

And neither does they have anything that the Capellans needs or wants.

New Vandenburg seems to be the big jewel that the CC-MoC fought some war for. It's a nicely developed (for periphery or IS standards) planet with a decent population and (near as we know) still standing industries on par with Detroit. Plus, it's a much better staging area for anything the CC wants to do in the area than Ward (most developed CC planet near there)

[Isanova]

Come to think of it, I don't believe the Calderon Protectorate worlds ever even gained HPGs, though post-Jihad Comstar might set up shop there just

[Stormfury]

The TC, even after warring with the FedSuns, Roughriders going all Mac Attack on them, Samantha turned to glass and militant bickering, still have a decent bit of heavy military industry at their back, and near as we can tell didn't lose a lot of their jumpship fleet either.

The Concordat's JumpShip fleet was never large to begin with. Arguably they are in a better position with a smaller military to be mobilised in that regard, but the Concordat has not really demonstrated it is a rational actor over the past three centuries, so I would not really be holding my breath on the TDF reassigning much if any of its JumpShips to the civilian sector.

And that is if the major Suns incursion did not cost it vessels.

The CP has retrotech mechs, a really weak retro-fighter, and from what I understand a decent BA factory, as well as likely a good spy network in Taurus home. OTOH they benefit from distance and the presumed neutrality of most former-colony worlds, which might be political (if the TDF go full-warpath they risk turning the rest of the colonies against them?)

What colonies? The New Colony Region/Fronc Reaches? They're not going to get involved. They're not in the right place "geographically."

The Protectorate military might not (currently) be as advanced as the Concordat's, but then again it did not just suffer a series of defeats and losses at the hands of the AFFS. And, unlike the Concordat, it has demonstrated in its relatively brief existence that it is a rational actor.

It's a nicely precarious position where the TDF can fight a good war against the CP, but face a lot of risk in doing so. Even if they did so, they would face a struggle in maintaining control over far-flung colonies (as they always have) not to mention a warship to overcome.

Again; the Protectorate has demonstrated that it is a rational actor and that it has no interest in a military confrontation. Defence of its holdings, yes; assaulting others, no. Completely the inverse of the Concordat. If anything, the Protectorate is more likely to be pre-emptively invaded by the Concordat; primitive/retrotech equipment or not, the TDF has not exactly delivered an imposing performance of late and I would not be too eager to place money on their ability to subdue even the Protectorate.

New Vandenburg seems to be the big jewel that the CC-MoC fought some war for. It's a nicely developed (for periphery or IS standards) planet with a decent population and (near as we know) still standing industries on par with Detroit. Plus, it's a much better staging area for anything the CC wants to do in the area than Ward (most developed CC planet near there)

Except that the Magistracy already has Detroit. It also has access to the might of the Capellan Confederation, and no known imperialistic intent. That said, if the Magistracy/CapCon wants it, how exactly is the TDF going to stop them from taking it? They lack the military strength to preven its fall.

Come to think of it, I don't believe the Calderon Protectorate worlds ever even gained HPGs, though post-Jihad Comstar might set up shop there just

At the very least, Erod's Escape (per HB: MPS) has a Class B station. Given the efforts launched by ComStar and later the Word to court the Concordat I would think the balance of probability indicates that most, if not all of the Protectorate worlds have HPGs.

[Isanova]

The Concordat's JumpShip fleet was never large to begin with. Arguably they are in a better position with a smaller military to be mobilised in that regard, but the Concordat has not really demonstrated it is a rational actor over the past three centuries, so I would not really be holding my breath on the TDF reassigning much if any of its JumpShips to the civilian sector.

And that is if the major Suns incursion did not cost it vessels.

I meant more in terms of moving troops around than anything. TCN had a pretty decent fleet for it's size in the 3050s, and with less territory to cover it gives them superior coverage. I doubt they lost a lot of ships... if Jumpships were being targeted in the war I expect it would have been mentioned. A few probably, but not en-masse.

What colonies? The New Colony Region/Fronc Reaches? They're not going to get involved. They're not in the right place "geographically."

I mean all the worlds the Far Lookers established, the Concordat has always had problems since the first ones were large enough for incorporation (and map listing). Heck, Hellspoint went independent in 3065 IIRC and they are blessed with a germanium mine!

The Protectorate military might not (currently) be as advanced as the Concordat's, but then again it did not just suffer a series of defeats and losses at the hands of the AFFS. And, unlike the Concordat, it has demonstrated in its relatively brief existence that it is a rational actor.

The TDF was never irrational, two of it's youngest generals jumped the gun with their units and sparked a war. I also am talking long-term, not immediately post-jihad.

Again; the Protectorate has demonstrated that it is a rational actor and that it has no interest in a military confrontation. Defence of its holdings, yes; assaulting others, no. Completely the inverse of the Concordat. If anything, the Protectorate is more likely to be pre-emptively invaded by the Concordat; primitive/retrotech equipment or not, the TDF has not exactly delivered an imposing performance of late and I would not be too eager to place money on their ability to subdue even the Protectorate.

TDF would need to ensure adequate defense of it's FS/CC borders before sending a Corps or two into the Protectorate, given the months of travel time required.

Except that the Magistracy already has Detroit. It also has access to the might of the Capellan Confederation, and no known imperialistic intent. That said, if the Magistracy/CapCon wants it, how exactly is the TDF going to stop them from taking it? They lack the military strength to preven its fall.

Launching actions against the Concordat from Detroit is a two-jump supply chain. New Vandenburg gives striking distance to most all the TC worlds. (also issues of a bigger planet for providing food, repair, R&R, etc not just guns + ammo)

At the very least, Erod's Escape (per HB: MPS) has a Class B station. Given the efforts launched by ComStar and later the Word to court the Concordat I would think the balance of probability indicates that most, if not all of the Protectorate worlds have HPGs.

My bad, IIRC Comstar was only starting to get HPG service into the TC as of the 3010s, and with new colonies sprouting all over I didn't imagine it was a C* priority

[Stormfury]

I meant more in terms of moving troops around than anything. TCN had a pretty decent fleet for it's size in the 3050s, and with less territory to cover it gives them superior coverage. I doubt they lost a lot of ships... if Jumpships were being targeted in the war I expect it would have been mentioned. A few probably, but not en-masse.

I've never seen anything to suggest that the Taurian navy was particularly large. Given their dearth of ASF cover, limited number of DropShips, total lack of JumpShip construction sites, and limited ability to maintain their vessels assuming a large navy seems a bit of a stretch, especially when p. 115 of HB: MPS notes that the fleet assets are deployed as far forward as possible during times of war, leaving very few available for any other kind of duty (eg, redeploying TDF units).

As for destruction of JumpShips during the Jihad, this is something that has been mentioned in the various Field Reports. Whilst it did not get any face time so far as I am aware in the Hot Spots series, all of the Field Reports have noted massive losses in JumpShips and Dropships, to the point that the Draconis Combine cannot mobilise its shattered military and the AFFS had to re-organise a large number of formations so it could transport them on the transport elements it had left. There are other examples, but it sems clear that a large number of JumpShips were destroyed during the Jihad; postulating the Concordat was immune to that, especially since their naval doctrine calls for the destruction of enemy JumpShips wherever and whenever possible and the abandonment of many long-standing traditions during the Jihad does not seem to hold much water.

The TDF was never irrational, two of it's youngest generals jumped the gun with their units and sparked a war. I also am talking long-term, not immediately post-jihad.

And I am talking about the long-term, deeply entrenched paranoid xenophobia evinced by the Taurian Concordat. It is an issue that goes all the way back to the Concordat's earliest history, even in the oldest publications. One of the main reasons the Protectorate was formed is due to the Concordat going off the deep end again, at the expense of the nation as a whole.

Even if the Taurian Concordat was not known to have gone for semi-plausible deniability to trigger wars (see: Malagrotta Incident) they had the option of recalling those commands and ending the war against the Federated Suns. Instead, the TDF made a point of supplying those commands with nuclear weaponry after the fact and then launched other offensives against the Suns, including the deployment of the Vendetta.

Nothing during or after the Jihad demonstrates the Concordat changed its basic stance. Even by the time of the latest Tech Readouts they are noted as having been willingly working with the Blakists despite knowing they were the ones truly responsible for the asteroid assault (fluff from Foxhound).

Launching actions against the Concordat from Detroit is a two-jump supply chain. New Vandenburg gives striking distance to most all the TC worlds. (also issues of a bigger planet for providing food, repair, R&R, etc not just guns + ammo)

Why would they launch such attacks? The Magistracy already has its own supply needs covered, having captured secret Blakist facilities (possibly including Dictator lines, maybe including the ability to manufacture its own Vengeances) along with their pre-existing infrastructure and deeper ties to the Capellan Confederation, which is in the best known position of any faction in the Dark Age. They have no motivation to even try attacking the Concordat except in reprisal for a Taurian offensive.

This, to me, seems the same sort of thinking the Concordat demonstrates about the Federated Suns; that they are permanantly just on the verge of launching an all-out offensive despite in actuality not even being remotely interested in such an action.

My bad, IIRC Comstar was only starting to get HPG service into the TC as of the 3010s, and with new colonies sprouting all over I didn't imagine it was a C* priority

The period after Tukayyid saw ComStar doing a lot to shore up its position economically, and after the Schism and Trinity Alliance the Word of Blake was working hard to get a good relationship with the Concordat in order to use them as pawns in the future.

[Isanova]

In 3058 they had 130 ships, not counting the state-owned transport-specific fleet of unknown numbers. Assuming an average of smaller 3-5 collar ships as norm (and I imagine they'd have more smaller than larger, valuable ships), that gives somewhere in the range of 30-35 jumpships covering a territory (post-jihad) of less than half that. Two-plus military jumpships per system is pretty good. Even one jumpship per system is stellar.

I'm not delving into an argument over "The TC are paranoid freaks" vs "The TC is smart to consider it's militant neighbors a threat". We've done that before.

Having a base of operations if the CC or MoC, for whatever reason, decided to tackle with the bulls is smart. I'm not saying they are or would plan a war, just that N-V is a strong base to work from.

[elizibar]

It's amazing.  A thread about the Calderon Protectorate has turned into an argument about Taurian justification for their irrational fear and hatred of the Federated Suns.

Maybe this is why the Protectorate's worlds broke away from the rest of the Concordat. :p

[Stormfury]

In 3058 they had 130 ships, not counting the state-owned transport-specific fleet of unknown numbers.

Source? Also a source on your posited surviving vessel numbers being so high?

I'm not delving into an argument over "The TC are paranoid freaks" vs "The TC is smart to consider it's militant neighbors a threat". We've done that before.

I did not raise the issue. I merely pointed out that the Concordat has nothing of enough value to prompt the kind of military action being hypothesised.

Having a base of operations if the CC or MoC, for whatever reason, decided to tackle with the bulls is smart. I'm not saying they are or would plan a war, just that N-V is a strong base to work from.

Considering the Concordat's state after the Jihad (let alone its remnants by the time of the Dark Age) virtually any border world coud be argued to be a "strong base to work from." They're down to less than twenty systems plus the Pleiades in 3130, maybe double that in 3079. It's kind of like saying that hitting Grumium in the mid-50s would be a good start if the Draconis Combine wanted to hammer the Free Rasalhague Republic.

It's correct, but it doesn't tell you much. It also requires, for some reason, a bordering faction to act in an out-of-character fashion.

Maybe this is why the Protectorate's worlds broke away from the rest of the Concordat.

Pretty much. Kithrong's expressed reasoning for formation of the Protectorate was that the Concordat had for far too long been focused on a non-existant menace; getting involved in the FedCom Civil War due to "Remember the Pleiades!" rhetoric and/or the supposed all-conquering invasion from Duke Hasek that was due to start any day now, honest was the straw that finally broke the camel's back.

[Nerroth]

To look at it another way, would the Calderon Protectorate consider itself to be the "natural successor" to the TC's place in the Trinity Alliance; and since the Concordat itself seems to have backed out of the agreement (if I'm not mistaken), would the CC/MoC perhaps be more willing to consider the CP in those terms?

[Stormfury]

Viewed externally, probably so. They have a much more sensible outlook and leadership than the Concordat proper and didn't just spend over a decade serving as Word of Blake flunkies.

On the other hand, the Trinity Alliance was super duper unpopular with citizens of the Concordat. Even after a massive PR blitz the highest approval rating it ever had was just 45%, and Cham Kithrong spends a bit of time in HB: MPS talking about the Protectorate being formed because the Taurian government has elected to follow its own agenda over the will of the people.

Pragmatically, the Protectorate could probably use inclusion in a new or renewed Trinity Alliance. However, it has a limited ability to provide anything in return for membership, and it would probably be a very difficult sell to the people. That might change by 3130, though.

[Isanova]

130 = Periphery 2nd Ed, one of the only times fleet numbers have been pinned down in the slightest. Given the broken TC we see with most of their colonies independent and FS taken worlds, it's a little space for a lot of ships. Assuming they gained none from their time with Trinity, and the WoB helped them nothing to repair broken down ships (despite their main carrot for entry was helping with the mysteriously absent Vandenburg) and lost half during the war... it is still good coverage. That's only fighting fleet assets (even if that is converted cargo dropships), not transport assets.

But meh, what do I know. I'm sure the Roughriders tanks shot them all out of the sky, and the TC is limping along worse than the MoC after Andurien divorced them.

Kithrong argued that Shraplin politically manipulated things and usurped the throne, and focused priorities wastefully. He played PR games with people upset about Shraplin's policies, pandered to the Far-Looker crowd, and played for the few Monarchists out there. The man was either a traitor or a patriot depending on the eyes beholding him. It's just as easy to blame him for weakening the Concordat at it's time of need as to blame Shraplin for hiring the Urakhai as an excuse to rally the people behind a raid that became a war as it is to blame the Blakists for whispering patriotic nothings into the Pleadies-Legacy units, inciting them to turn the war from minor to major.

It's perspective, not fact. TC-paranoia is a matter of fan perspective, but I wonder... would you say it's foolish for the FRR (circa 3045) to protect their non-periphery borders because the LC & DC were friendly-neutral to them? After all they could denude their defenses to hunt down pirates and conquer Oberon! Lyrans and Kuritans aren't planning to invade, so they don't need to fret about it right?

===========

I think the CP is a lot more likely to have a trade alliance with the growing small-nations... Fronc, Randis, Filvelt or even FedSuns-Periphery (they did build rapport by playing peacemaker) than trying to get most-favored-nation with the CC-MoC again. Plus, it would seriously tick off Taurians, Calderonians, and Taurian-Independents. Doubly-so after whatever future CC-TC war goes off.

[Isanova]

You know, I half wonder if the "Jihad style" reporter sourcebooks were chosen to stir factional bickering amongst the fans.

Sorry for the thread-jack. My ardent paranoid superiority complex leads me to push aside the little-Taurians in favor of grandstanding about the good old days... just like IC-Taurians :P

[Neufeld]

You know, I half wonder if the "Jihad style" reporter sourcebooks were chosen to stir factional bickering amongst the fans.

It sure seems sometimes that the writers and the moderators are working at cross purpose.

[Stormfury]

130 = Periphery 2nd Ed, one of the only times fleet numbers have been pinned down in the slightest. Given the broken TC we see with most of their colonies independent and FS taken worlds, it's a little space for a lot of ships. Assuming they gained none from their time with Trinity, and the WoB helped them nothing to repair broken down ships (despite their main carrot for entry was helping with the mysteriously absent Vandenburg) and lost half during the war... it is still good coverage. That's only fighting fleet assets (even if that is converted cargo dropships), not transport assets.

I was under the impression that the 130 vessels in four transport corps included both JumpShips and DropShips, something your post here also seems to indicate.

The Concordat may have gained some JumpShips from their time in the Trinity Alliance, but it was only formed in 3062 and lasted for the Concordat until the Jihad. Given constant Taurian comments in the sourcebooks about how little assistance providing their troops for the Alliance actually bought them and the fact that the Concordat focused what aid it did get on upgrading its ground forces and supporting infrastructure, I would not be expecting too much on that front, especially considering how few JumpShips are constructed each year and how many are typically spoken for by Successor States even then.

The situation with the Vandenberg was a known issue as far back as FM: P, where it was being derided as the TCW Albatross by its critics. By the time of FM: U almost a decade had gone into refurbishing the ship, and the entries about it indicate that rather than a refurbishment what it required was a full rebuild in a naval yard, somethng the Taurians could not even hope to manage given the scope of such a project and the way they lacked any of the naval infrastructure the Great Houses were able to use as a springboard from JumpShips to WarShips.

Kithrong argued that Shraplin politically manipulated things and usurped the throne, and focused priorities wastefully.

I don't really think Shraplen's Protectorship or leadership during the period in question can be described any other way. That's pretty much an unbiased summation of things.

He played PR games with people upset about Shraplin's policies, pandered to the Far-Looker crowd, and played for the few Monarchists out there.

Considering Shraplen was focusing on the military at the overwhelming expense of everything else, the TCW Vandenberg being just the tip of the iceberg there, proposed that the Protectorship should go to someone with a legitimate claim to it, and opposed dragging the Concordat into yet another round of pointless conflict with the Federated Suns over territory it had not controlled for four centuries and which had no interest in returning to the fold any way?

It's just as easy to blame him for weakening the Concordat at it's time of need as to blame Shraplin for hiring the Urakhai as an excuse to rally the people behind a raid that became a war as it is to blame the Blakists for whispering patriotic nothings into the Pleadies-Legacy units, inciting them to turn the war from minor to major.

Shraplen did not hire the Urukhai. This is the third thread where you have raised that claim, and there is not only no evidence to support it but actual evidence against it; as Roosterboy already stated, Grover Shraplen knew that the Urukhai were only in-system seeking employment, but ordered their destruction because he either convinced himself it was a Davion plot or wanted to use it to sell a war with the distracted Federated Suns.

Blaming the Word of Blake for the Pleiades attack  nakes similarly little sense. FM: U's own internal memo on the Taurian Concordat (p. 193) notes that the assault began after interrogation of captured Urukhai indicated that a Taurian defector had departed with knowledge of a safe route through the asteroid field and it was becoming spread around navigators in the region he fled to (the Capellan March of the Federated Suns). Their attacks are specifically stated to have been "punitive", but since two of the units sent to the region just so happen to have a big Thing about reclaiming the Pleiades, Shraplen was looking to engineer a conflict, and the Concordat has used semi-plausible deniability in the other major clash with the Suns (Malagrotta) to provide causus belli I am far from convinced that the move was unsanctioned, particularly given they arrived provisioned with nuclear weapons and ready to fight a guerilla campaign with Shraplen later said to believe that if the Taurian forces in the Pleiades could hold out for another five months until the next Star League conference he would be able to make the Suns relinquish them then. At no point are the Blakists ever seen to be involved, and since the behaviour of TDF units is entirely in-line with historical precedent I do not believe such appeals need to be made. At the very least there is nothing in what we know to suggest that the Word was involved.

It's perspective, not fact. TC-paranoia is a matter of fan perspective,

It is not a matter of perspective, but fact. The Urukhai did not arrive to conduct a Davion-sponsored assault on Taurus, which Shraplen was well aware of at the time. Duke Hasek was far more interested in attacking the Capellan Confederation (and was actively gearing up to do so) than the Concordat, yet Shraplen ordered an assault on four worlds based on mercenaries telling the Concordat that the safe route had become known to Capellan March units and literally nothing else.

but I wonder... would you say it's foolish for the FRR (circa 3045) to protect their non-periphery borders because the LC & DC were friendly-neutral to them?

There is a massive difference between having defenders assigned to border worlds in the wake of a centuries-long resistance movement finally freeing the worlds of the Free Rasalhague Republic from the Draconis Combine and Lyran Commonwealth and what was going on in the Concordat. Neither the Lyrans nor Combine were eager to go to war with each other, nor to try and re-take the Republic- in fact, the Draconis Combine had just gone to war to deal with elements who wanted the FRR back. There's also the matter of the FRR's existence being brokered by ComStar to consider; any nation that threatened the Republic would be subject to an Interdiction, with the potential of Com Guard forces in the FRR being authorised to support its defence. Further, if you look at their actual unit disposition in that period (and how many worlds it held) it is very clear that the FRR was not preparing to face any serious invasion any way; the nature of the FRR means it has a fair few border worlds, but the defenders were more token forces than entrenched and prepared for a seige.

After all they could denude their defenses to hunt down pirates and conquer Oberon! Lyrans and Kuritans aren't planning to invade, so they don't need to fret about it right?

Except that the FRR at the time had entirely different goals. Among them was re-establishing its government, getting a viable defence force up and running, and ensuring its people were looked after properly. Military adventurism, particularly against a piratical nation that held no value and which could be stymied by said defence force, was not even vaguely on the horizon.

It really is apples and oranges here.

You know, I half wonder if the "Jihad style" reporter sourcebooks were chosen to stir factional bickering amongst the fans.

No, and the authors have explained their reasoning already.

[Isanova]

FRR was well established by 3045, a decade after the Ronin War, and there was no ComStar Protection Aegis over them until after they were booted from Terra. You seem to think the Concordat shouldn't worry about attack from their neighbors because the Capellans and FedSuns are such nice guys who would never invade them! And, any attempt to build up their defenses is a sign of paranoia. I don't understand that line of thinking.

The 130 number is drop-and-jumpships, split into four Assault Fleets. The militaries' Transport  (presumably for moving troops and supplies around) is a separate fleet altogether of unknown size.

My point on the Vandenburg was that the WoB moved in on the promise to help refit the thing... and it would be natural to assume that includes helping repair any jumpships that are still alive but non-functional for whatever reason. That it is logical to think they might gain some JS fleet assets from such was my only point. What happened to the Vandenburg is still to be seen, and not worth bickering about.

The Urakhai claimed to be looking for work, that's all we know. IC or OOC. Why they would do so charging a capital at full burn, not responding to hails, we can only guess. My THEORY is that Shraplin did hire them to do so in secret just to give a man to draw off his political problems. There's not a lot of scenarios that explain things well, after all anyone doing the same on Sian or New Avelon or such would expect to be shot down.
=====================
P.S.> The war wasn't intentional. It was meant to be a series of heavy raiding to give the TDF a big "we kicked the FedSuns (when they were occupied with a civil war" arses!" political boost for the Protector, a sort of "look at me! Winning!" kind of move.

Then they landed to raid and planets started surrendering to them. He couldn't very well refuse, or all his anti-FS posturing would have him crucified at home for withdrawing. At that point, the TDF was set to build up on the (6-8 I think?) worlds so conquered and wait for the FedSuns to get round to smacking them back, brokering a peace that would be more or less the same. If the TDF fought well, with the war-weary FedSuns, they might have negotiated peace and actually gained an insignificant world or two. Neither Taurus nor New Syrtis really had an interest in a prolonged conflict over relatively worthless worlds.

Then the two newest regiments, built up Alshain-avengers style with homeworlds long lost to them, decided to shoot off on their own like idiots. Whether these CO's were morons, influenced by Blake, secret MIIO agents with twirling black mustaches, Tetatae evil plot, who knows. Point is it wasn't a move made by TDF high Command or the Protector.

Shraplin could not abandon two regiments to die, though I bet he issued the withdraw orders. Hasek could not permit an enemy to keep a rich three-planet system one jump from the capital. This made the TC's antics go from mild nuisance to credible strategic threat. After all, what if the Trinity Alliance built up an attack force one jump from New Syrtis in a future CC invasion?

Then the Roughriders took Mighty Mouse pills, and all else went to hell.


The Pleadies War was an example of politics running war, and the disastrous consequences of giving too much authority to your Generals. It wasn't some example of how the TC government were rabid hateful morons. The BTech universe is far from being so black and white.

[Stormfury]

FRR was well established by 3045, a decade after the Ronin War, and there was no ComStar Protection Aegis over them until after they were booted from Terra.

ComStar brokered the very existance of the Free Rasalhague Republic. They have something of a vested interest in it. The FRR was also on very friendly terms (at least so far as such things go in BattleTech) with both the Combine and the Commonwealth.

You seem to think the Concordat shouldn't worry about attack from their neighbors because the Capellans and FedSuns are such nice guys who would never invade them! And, any attempt to build up their defenses is a sign of paranoia. I don't understand that line of thinking.

No. What I think, and what I have said, is that regularly launching unprovoked assaults on an opponent to pre-empt an invasion said opponent had no interest in or preperations for is a sign of paranioa.

There is a big difference between preparing an adequate defence as determined by your state's stellar position and political realities and what the Taurian Concordat has done throughout its history.

The 130 number is drop-and-jumpships, split into four Assault Fleets. The militaries' Transport  (presumably for moving troops and supplies around) is a separate fleet altogether of unknown size.

And, as noted in FM: P and H: MPS, the tactical doctrine the Concordat follows for naval engagements leaves precious little coverage for transport duties. If the Transport and Service Division- per HB: MPS in command of all military DropShip and JumpShip assets not permanantly assigned to a TDF regiment, is struggling to do its job under such circumstances, proposing that most, if not all of the 130 vessels in the four Fleets are JumpShips and that there is a large JumpShip contingent beyond that does not really follow.

My point on the Vandenburg was that the WoB moved in on the promise to help refit the thing... and it would be natural to assume that includes helping repair any jumpships that are still alive but non-functional for whatever reason.

The Word of Blake did not move in on the promise to fix the Vandenberg. They moved in because they were competing with ComStar to run the Concordat's HPG network. Other projects followed, and they may have provided some aid with the Vandenberg, but all references to its refurbishment make reference to Capellan, not Word, assistance.

That it is logical to think they might gain some JS fleet assets from such was my only point. What happened to the Vandenburg is still to be seen, and not worth bickering about.

Work on the Vandenberg was only made possible because of the Trinity Alliance and massive Capellan assistance. Neither are available any longer, the Word did not renovate it for the Taurians during the Jihad, and as a result the most reasonable assumption is not that the Taurians completed the refit (especially since they are noted as being unable to effect much in the way of repairs to the Vendetta) but that they are either doing what they can to ever so slowly finish the job, yet to be completed by 3130, or that they finally admitted defeat and put the ship back into mothballs.

The Urakhai claimed to be looking for work, that's all we know. IC or OOC.

We also know that they had been ejected from Suns service with a grudge against their former employer. Hardly a surprise then that they should seek employment with the Taurian Concordat, which also nurses a grudge against the Federated Suns, but as a Periphery posting is more likely to allow for the period of repair and refit the Urukhai needed.

Why they would do so charging a capital at full burn, not responding to hails, we can only guess.

Since they were responding to hails and were saying "Hey, can we have a job?" and Shraplen both knew and understood they were only looking for a job, I do not think much guesswork is required.

My THEORY is that Shraplin did hire them to do so in secret just to give a man to draw off his political problems.

A theory for which there is not only no evidence but evidence against, which you have presented as a fact three times now.

There's not a lot of scenarios that explain things well, after all anyone doing the same on Sian or New Avelon or such would expect to be shot down.

The scenario has been fully explained, both in character and out. The Urukhai arrived looking for work, Shraplen knew that to be the case, and destroyed them either because he truly believed they were the vanguard of a secret Davion assault or because he wanted to provide a reason to his people to sell a war. Either way it does not look good.

P.S.> The war wasn't intentional. It was meant to be a series of heavy raiding to give the TDF a big "we kicked the FedSuns (when they were occupied with a civil war" arses!" political boost for the Protector, a sort of "look at me! Winning!" kind of move.

You do not deploy multiple regiments to four enemy-held worlds while that enemy is engaged in a civil war unintentionally.

Then they landed to raid and planets started surrendering to them. He couldn't very well refuse, or all his anti-FS posturing would have him crucified at home for withdrawing.

Only the original four worlds hit- Hyalite, Lothaire, Midale and Brockway- were planned as raids. After they had success, a second wave of strikes at Bromhead and Lindsay were undertaken.  See p. 186-187 and 192-193 of FM: U.

So we have "raids" on four worlds that lead towards the Pleiades Cluster, then the two gateway systems to the Pleiades along that salient are seized. And then two of the forces dispatched are Pleiades legacy commands, and they are at the closest points to the Pleiades. Which, incidentally, have both been around for longer than you are trying to paint them as; the Pleiades Hussars, AFAICT, were around for the Age of War/Star League, while the Pleiades Lancers were formed by 3049 at the latest (20-Year Update).

And the commander of the Pleiades Hussars just so happens to be a very close friend of Shraplen who was given his rank through nepotism (p. 62, FM: P). And then they arrive in the Pleiades Cluster ready to conduct a guerilla war that Shraplen thinks will force the Star League to order the surrender of captured worlds to the Taurians.

Yeah. Not really buying the "they were only meant to be punative raids, until all these incredibly convenient things happened and before we knew what was happening the two units that had been agitating for a return to the Pleiades were placed in a position to make strikes into it, oops, our bad" line.

At that point, the TDF was set to build up on the (6-8 I think?) worlds so conquered and wait for the FedSuns to get round to smacking them back, brokering a peace that would be more or less the same.

Six worlds, with nothing to suggest they were not testing the waters for an attempt on the Pleiades, and history clearly demonstrates that for whatever reason the Concordat was determined to hold the Pleiades Cluster even at the major expense of the rest of its domain.

Then the two newest regiments, built up Alshain-avengers style with homeworlds long lost to them, decided to shoot off on their own like idiots. Whether these CO's were morons, influenced by Blake, secret MIIO agents with twirling black mustaches, Tetatae evil plot, who knows. Point is it wasn't a move made by TDF high Command or the Protector.

Again, not how it happened. And with the guy leading the attack into the Pleiades being Shraplen's very good friend, appointed to his rank purely because of that, and both units arriving prepared for exactly the kind of battle Shraplen later admits was what he hoped would somehow be able to provide leverage to force the Suns to surrender the six worlds the Taurians took and/or Pleiades Cluster to the Concordat, those coincidences just keep mounting up.

Were there officially recorded orders for what they did? Maybe not. Does that mean much, under the circumstances and in context? Not really, no.

Shraplin could not abandon two regiments to die, though I bet he issued the withdraw orders. Hasek could not permit an enemy to keep a rich three-planet system one jump from the capital. This made the TC's antics go from mild nuisance to credible strategic threat. After all, what if the Trinity Alliance built up an attack force one jump from New Syrtis in a future CC invasion?

The thing is, the very success enjoyed by the TDF was ample demonstration that Hasek had nothing in the pipeline directed towards the Concordat. He had to employ mercenaries and redeploy his forces, all of which were concentrating on the Capellan Confederation at the time. Once he turned his attention to the Taurian incursion, it was put down hard and fast aside from the Pleiades Cluster, where the densely-packed systems made it difficult to pin the Taurians in place so they could be destroyed.

As for "credible strategic threat"? The TDF in '67 consisted of 12.87 regiments (per FM: U, including the 1st and 2nd Taurian Pride, adjusted for oversize Taurian formations and strengths as listed). They had no WarShips.

Field Marshal Duke Hasek, on the other hand, had command of 22.19 regiments (adjusted for losses and RCTs) along with there being two Fox Corvettes and an Avalon in the area he could probably call on. The force strength count is only for AFFS units, not the multiple regiments of mercenaries also present.

Then the Roughriders took Mighty Mouse pills, and all else went to hell.

Alternatively, and as the rest of the conflict, through the Jihad and after it demonstrated, the TDF and government turned out to be entirely incompetant. They might have thought they were up to the task, but the reality was somewhat different.

This is in no way something unique to the Concordat. The Jaguars were demonstrated to be weak, the Draconis Combine despite FM: DC painting a rosy picture turned out to be both insipid and about half-full of Black Dragon loyalists... the list just goes on. Unfortunately, what a nation in BT and/or its fans expect does not always line up, and even then history shows the Concordat has a habit of biting off more than it can chew.

The Pleadies War was an example of politics running war, and the disastrous consequences of giving too much authority to your Generals. It wasn't some example of how the TC government were rabid hateful morons.

In and of itself? Perhaps, perhaps not. Considered in context? Very much so... hence, the formation of the Calderon Protectorate.

[Moonsword]

Alright, people, let's try not to get too unpleasant in here.  Taurian threads have a history of getting ugly so please bear the rules in mind, especially Rule 3, and keep in mind that what you intend and how your post comes across may not be the same thing.

[Isanova]

Meh, Bored Now.



Shall we agree to disagree Stormy?

[Deadborder]

Gotta say, I'm siding with Stormy here on all points. I'm yet to see anything that contradicts his points, and his references all check out.

[Medron Pryde]

He is right that the Shraplen TC is stupid.  Shraplen used Nepotism to place people in charge who would do what he wanted, and was a friend of the Returners who wanted the Pleiades back and were willing to do anything at all to get them.  By the time the war started, Shraplen had spent half a decade putting his people in positions so they were ready, and those loyal to the Calderons, including at least one Calderon, were actively retiring because they couldn't stand to work under the man.

Why one of the many Calderons out there weren't made Protector I'll never know.  Personally, I think someone just wanted to make the TC go stupid.  It worked.  When Shraplen was first introduced, he was noted to be a friend of Mad Tommy Calderon, the guy who'd been so nuts about the Davion threat that HIS OWN PEOPLE finally got tired of dealing with his dicking around that they had a little rebellion and put his son in charge.  And the Taurians rejoiced.  Oh.  And Tommy didn't just fear the Davion threat.  He feared anybody who didn't do what he wanted.  Like the Far Lookers.  He tried to kill them when he found out they were using money to fund new colonies.  He got stopped there too, by other guys who "talked him" into not doing it.

By the time the actual war with the Davions started, the Calderon Protectorate and formed and many of the people who had stopped Jeffrey's father from doing stupid things, just weren't there anymore to stop Shraplen.  Perhaps if the Calderon Protectorate had not formed, the war could have been stopped before it got ugly.  Maybe someone would have been in position to do the same thing to Sharplen that they did to Mad Tommy.  But the high level people loyal to the Calderons just weren't there anymore.  Of course, maybe that was because those who didn't retire were fired.  We don't really know.  All we do know is that there is an interesting change in the leadership of the various regiments between 3062 and 3067.  And we know that some of them retired rather than work under Shraplen.  And based on what we see, Shraplen got key people he liked into key positions and they used those positions to start a devastating war with the Federated Suns.

Where Stormy is wrong, is his dogged insistence that Tommy Calderon and Shraplen are the NORMAL Taurians rather than the ones so insane that BOTH of them got rebelled against.

The Calderon Protectorate is where the normal Taurians are in charge.  I'm actually surprised that they have a different flag.  I seem to remember seeing somewhere that they had a normal Taurian flag, just with black stars on it.  The symbol I saw in the recent book really shocked me.  The Calderon Protectorate does consider itself to be the real Taurian Concordat from everything I've read.  And they seem to consider that the TC ran into trouble because of Shraplen and his Returner friends.  The Taurian Concordat that THEY KNEW was destroyed by Shraplen and his friends.  That is why they left.

It's like West Germans looking around in 1946 and seeing what Hitler did to Germany and wondering what they could have done to stop it.

[Neufeld]

The Calderon Protectorate is where the normal Taurians are in charge.  I'm actually surprised that they have a different flag.  I seem to remember seeing somewhere that they had a normal Taurian flag, just with black stars on it.  The symbol I saw in the recent book really shocked me.

I got the impression from H:MPS that it is the flag of Erod's Escape that they are using. Maybe they will change it to what you described later.

[Stormfury]

First off, please refrain from turning my handle into a diminutive. It is insulting if not directly offensive.

Why one of the many Calderons out there weren't made Protector I'll never know. 

Presumably because there were not that many with a legitimate claim to the throne. IE, what the books say.

Personally, I think someone just wanted to make the TC go stupid.  It worked.

Alternatively, it was a natural progression of Taurian policies dating back as far as its original founding, and completely in character with their story arc to that point.

But the high level people loyal to the Calderons just weren't there anymore.

There were only a handful Taurian leaders in earlier times who were like that. People like Hadji Doru, Cham Kithrong, Brenda Calderon, Janice Calderon, and Jeffrey Calderon are very obviously in the minority. When your nation's longstanding, defining ideology results in institutionalised paranioa, it's the obvious outcome. And again, that's a situation which has constantly repeated itself through Taurian history. The more level-headed leaders are around in spite of that.

By '66, Brenda Calderon was retired. Hadji Doru had gone into exile and was working for the Magistracy. Jeffrey was dead, and Janice too ill. There was a cure for Janice's condition, but it would require treatment at the NAIS, so obviously that option's out any way.

So that just left Cham Kithrong. Who did what he could.

All we do know is that there is an interesting change in the leadership of the various regiments between 3062 and 3067.

Having cross-referenced FM: P and FM: U:

Taurian Guard Corps: Same commander and XO.
Taurian Guard: Same commander.
Taurian Commandos: Former XO is now in charge.
I Corps: Same commander and XO.
Concordat Jaegers: Same commander.
Red Chasseurs: Same commander.
II Corps: Disbanded.
Hyades Light Infantry: Destroyed.
III Corps: Same commander; new XO
Pleiades Hussars: Same commander.
1st Taurian Lancers: Commander of the best-performing battalion in '62 promoted to command by '67.
IV Corps: Same commander and XO.
Pleiades Lancers: Destroyed.
2nd Taurian Lancers: Completely new commander.
3rd Taurian Lancers: Former battalion commander promoted to command.

So aside from the demise of II Corps, there is no movement at the Corps command level and only one change at the Corps XO level.

One regiment's XO was promoted to command. One regiment's best-performing officer was promoted to command. One former battalion commander was promoted to command. And one completely new commander was installed.

This does not strike me as a particularly unique movement of officers, especially given the fact Taurian units were engaged in combat. I strongly suspect that a similar sample from any other nation's armed forces would yield similar results.

Where Stormy is wrong, is his dogged insistence that Tommy Calderon and Shraplen are the NORMAL Taurians rather than the ones so insane that BOTH of them got rebelled against.

Wildly incorrect. I have never said that.

The Taurian Concordat that THEY KNEW was destroyed by Shraplen and his friends.  That is why they left.

If it was the Concordat that they knew, or that the people wanted, why was support for Shraplen so strong even before the asteroid strike? Why did so few worlds join Kithrong? Why did the vast majority of the TDF, in place before Shraplen took power and without the sweeping revision you posit after that event, decline to join him? Why, during the Jihad, did not more people and planets decide that the Protectorate was the one making sense and defect?
   
I know what the books actually have to say about it, and I also know it lines up with what I think; that Cham Kithrong's policies found little to no traction outside the forces and worlds he already commanded, and that the Protectorate only endured because the rest of the TDF was already occupied elsewhere.

[Sharpnel]

FRR was well established by 3045, a decade after the Ronin War, and there was no ComStar Protection Aegis over them until after they were booted from Terra. You seem to think the Concordat shouldn't worry about attack from their neighbors because the Capellans and FedSuns are such nice guys who would never invade them! And, any attempt to build up their defenses is a sign of paranoia. I don't understand that line of thinking.

Incorrect, it was 3034. The Ronin War came about as a direct result of the Draconis Combine recognizing its independence.

[Stormfury]

To be fair, I think that's what they meant. By 3045 the Ronin War was a decade in the past. Very recent in memory, however.

[Deadborder]

So in summary: Save for the leadership of the nation, nothing actually changed in the TC in the years leading up to the Jihad.

Also, it's worth noting that there's no indications of mass migrations or the like to the Calderon Protectorate at any stage. Nor are there any indications that the people of the TC were unhappy in the change of leadership to a non-Calderon on a mass stage. Simply put, Shraplen gave the Taurians what they wanted - a chance to strike back against the Hated Davion Menace and to reclaim the Peladies.

[blackjack]

I hope that they have learned not to mess with the FC for a long while. Going forward I'm looking forward to maybe a scenario pack on the low level civil war , then a grand dust up with an acceptable ending & direction for the TC. I just want to see Eric out of the battle armor & into a mech. To risky for a faction leader to be in BA.

[Isanova]

So in summary: Save for the leadership of the nation, nothing actually changed in the TC in the years leading up to the Jihad.

Also, it's worth noting that there's no indications of mass migrations or the like to the Calderon Protectorate at any stage. Nor are there any indications that the people of the TC were unhappy in the change of leadership to a non-Calderon on a mass stage. Simply put, Shraplen gave the Taurians what they wanted - a chance to strike back against the Hated Davion Menace and to reclaim the Peladies.

There's nothing showing upset with a non-calderon being put on the throne, he was legally put in place (I think FM:Periphery specifically says so) but there's a lot showing people were pissed off at Sharplin. People were wary, then angry, at the alliance with the CapCon. They were also angry at the MoC basically turning their attention away from the Treaty of Taurus, and at the way the Fronc Reaches was handled. They were REALLY peeved off at sending the TDF to fight in a Cappellan civil war, even having a regiment destroyed basically, for no gain.

There's a significant feeling amongst Taurians and peripherians in general against trusting the House Lords. I think there's a bit of anger at joining the New Star League, but I cant remember if that's stated anywhere per se.

By 3065 there was significant unrest at the Protector, anger at the Calderon Protectorate split and mismanagement of the Concordat compared to golden-boy Jeffrey. All but abandoning the colonies and sending troops off to fight St. Ives when piracy was picking up wasn't great either. Grovler needed a PR boost in a really bad way. (that's why I theorize about hiring Urakhai, but just a theory)

I imagine there was some migration to the Protectorate, but I don't think it's stated. I think the TDF officially blockaded civilian traffic to-from there, but that's a really hard thing to enforce given that any world closer than 4 jumps from is still just coming out of boonies/colony status, and the general freedom the Concordat gives it's people (JS traffic seems to be relatively unregulated near as I can tell)

[Stormfury]

And the formation of the Calderon Protectorate provided anyone who disagreed with what Shraplen was doing with a viable, nearby alternative. If more of the military- which, as I've already demonstrated was not purged and reforged with Shraplen loyalists- had been opposed to Grover they could and would have opposed him, not more staunchly supported him. If the Taurian public objected to Shraplen and his policies, they could and would have had the means to oppose him politically simply by declaring for the Calderon Protectorate.

None of that happened, however.

[Isanova]

And the formation of the Calderon Protectorate provided anyone who disagreed with what Shraplen was doing with a viable, nearby alternative. If more of the military- which, as I've already demonstrated was not purged and reforged with Shraplen loyalists- had been opposed to Grover they could and would have opposed him, not more staunchly supported him. If the Taurian public objected to Shraplen and his policies, they could and would have had the means to oppose him politically simply by declaring for the Calderon Protectorate.

None of that happened, however.

Well Stormfury, you have to consider a few things.

Legally speaking, Sharplin was the Protector. There was no coup d'etat, and it would be hard for most military units to just up and leave. The few that did join were already stationed in the area, or the Hyades Light Infantry were sort of a fast-deploy unit with few ties anywhere. I don't think anyone wanted things to turn into a civil war, and for some of the units tied down in garrison duty on say Perdition or McLeod's Land it would have been bad form to leave the Taurian people undefended. This military more than most have the "defend the people" pounded into them. So much so, that they don't seem to know how to run a proper offensive. :P

Even before the war, Taurus "lost contact" with some of the colonies, who it seems turned independent in one form or another. Hellspointe seems to be the first, literally telling Sharplin to go frell himself. Whether colonies or individuals chose to support the Protectorate over the Concordat, it isn't so easy to up and move. Particularly for colonies, who are tied to supply lines with Taurus, it would be hard to speak for the CP and risk being cut off from trade or even attacked.

[Stormfury]

The Calderon Protectorate was primarily formed of those very colony worlds you say would be unlikely to risk siding with Cham Kithrong. The Hyades Light Infantry were deployed on the Pleiades campaign and destoyed, survivors folded into the Taurian Guard. And if defending the people was such a primary consideration, the Taurian strategy would focus on that rather than forward deployment and pre-emptive assaults. Taurian forces certainly would not have done what they did during the Jihad, either.

Again; Cham Kithrong was able to provide protection for the colony worlds, and support for the civilians there. If more worlds or units had been interested in his philosophies and vision for the Concordat, that ability would only have increased, and by Jihad's end that had been the case for almost two decades.

Reading FM:P and H: MPS, it is clear that what Shraplen did that was unpopular with the Concordat at large was to join the Trinity Alliance. The Pleiades campaign and other things Kithrong and the Calderon Protectorate objected to did not bother the military or citizenry- or at least, did not bother them enough to actually oppose those measures.

[Gracus]

To be fair, there was a purging of the TDF, after a fashion.  The leadership of the Taurian Guard was decapitated when the rocks hit Taurus.  There was some indication in FM:P of resistance to Shraplen's actions prior to that.  Whether it would have resulted in active opposition to the invasion is something we cannot know of a certainty. 

[Deadborder]

FM85 makes it clear that there's no large-scale or even organised opposition to the Tharn's leadership or the like. In fact, the populace seems to be reasonably content to view what happened as a victory - after all, they did get the Peladies back, even if it cost them, well, everything else.

[Stormfury]

To be fair, there was a purging of the TDF, after a fashion.  The leadership of the Taurian Guard was decapitated when the rocks hit Taurus.

Taurus was not hit by asteroids until 3074. Shraplen became Protector in 3061; the Calderon Protectorate was formed in 3066. There is no large-scale changes to the TDF's upper ranks in the 3060s, and even in FM: P and FM: U opposition outside the Calderon Protectorate to Shraplen centres around him forging a close link with the Capellan Confederation.

Whether it would have resulted in active opposition to the invasion is something we cannot know of a certainty.

The Calderon Protectorate was formed prior to the attacks on the Federated Suns; there was already an active opposition.

Cham Kithrong and the Calderon Protectorate already offered a more moderate leader with a (semi?) legitimate Calderon heir, had the PR victory of holding off Shrraplen until he decided to focus on the Pleiades, and was resolved to pursue what were supposedly the "traditional" Taurian values.

The response from the rest of the Concordat, as soon as the Pleiades campaign began, was to throw in behind Shraplen with greater and greater solidarity. His support only grew. Kithrong, meanwhile, attracted no additional dissidents.

What the Concordat and its people wanted, and what they've been demonstrated as being like clearly and consistently since its establishment, was not what the Calderon Protectorate was offering. If it had been, Shraplen would have been deposed- not even necessarily in favour of Cham and Erik, but in favour of someone who wasn't Shraplen and wasn't pursuing his policies.

[Gracus]

I don't think it's wise to equate opposition with secession.  It's entirely possible to oppose some of a government's actions (the WMD attacks that followed the asteroid strike, for instance) without advocating secession from that government.  It's also possible those same attacks would have led to greater division within the TDF, more units seceding or even active revolt, if many of the leaders who disagreed with Shraplen weren't already dead or retired.  We know they didn't like what Shraplen was doing.  We don't know how they would have reacted to what Tharn did after they were dead.

[Stormfury]

The formation of the Calderon Protectorate was a de facto call from Cham Kithrong to all interested parties willing to oppose Shraplen and his goals. To call the result underwhelming is something of an understatement; the only reason the rebellion was not instantly crushed is because the Pleiades Campaign and Federated Suns kept the forces required to do so occupied. Even with that, the Protectorate and its cause benefitted from mere stasis, not growth.

The simple fact is that Shraplen was a product of the Concordat and its military. Kithrong did what he could to rally those who would oppose him, and came up empty-handed. There was not time for a purging of the TDF to ensure loyalty, nor was one even undertaken. The Corps had a choice; only those already following Kithrong were prepared to follow Kithrong. There was no organised opposition to Shraplen except for the Calderon Protectorate.

Positing some kind of opposition movement centred in the Taurian Guards Corps similarly falls flat; they were downgraded from Fanatical loyalty only because they were formerly lead by Brenda Calderon and at no stage demonstrated any disloyalty to Shraplen. If anything, quite the reverse.

As I have noted already, and as you yourself said, there simply weren't many who opposed Shraplen's aims. Methods, perhaps insofar as the Trinity Alliance went, but not much beyond that.

There was a chance at the formation of the Protectorate for Taurians to send a message to Shraplen. They didn't. The Pleiades Campaign bought even more time for opposition to Shraplen and his ilk to show themselves... yet the silence remained positively deafening.

[Gracus]

I think you're taking valid points and overstating them somewhat.  That Kithrong called for support from dissenters of Shraplen is true.  The decision not to secede with Kithrong does not necessarily indicate a lack of dissent. 

More to the point, we see indications of dissent in Brenda's report to Shraplen in FM:P and in Lee Smith's correspondence to Brenda in FM:U.  Both certainly qualify as noteworthy military leaders in the TDF at the time, and both clearly dissented from Shraplen's position.  I never suggested some opposition movement existed.  I suggested that dissenters in the TDF leadership were present, particularly within the Taurian Guard, and that they were killed before we could see their response to some of Tharn's more heinous activities (possibly; we know Smith was killed, I do not recall Brenda Calderon's ultimate fate). 

[Stormfury]

If the opposition to Shraplen or Tharn was so limited as to be completely wiped out in one action- not even a targeted purge, but something utterly unpredictable- and consisted of people who were unwilling to openly state their position, never mind actually do something about it, I don't really think it can be presented as viable.

The Concordat and TDF had numerous chances to turn aside from the course they were charting; not only did they elect not to do so, but when pressed they clung to it even more tightly. If that, on top of the Concordat's history of doing the same thing, is not evidence of a systemic problem, I do not know what is.

[Medron Pryde]

The information given by Stormfury about the command positions of the Taurian Defense Force is incomplete, and highly misleading.

There are eight time frames that are of interest and that we have unit commander information on.
3025, 3050, 3054, 3058, 3064, 3067, and 3085.
Periphery, 20 Year Update, Objective Raids, Periphery 2nd, FM Periphery, FM Updates, and FM 3085

Looking at all of these sources, we can see some interesting information

Brenda Calderon, in 3025, she commanded the Taurian Guard.  In 3050, she was the Senior Marshal of the TDF.  She remained in that position until the listing in 3058 when Jeffrery Calderon was the Senior Marshal and she became the Marshal in charge of Taurian Guard Corps.  By 3054, she had resigned from Shraplen's service.

Hadji Doru commanded 2nd Battalion of the Taurian Guard in 3025.  In 3050 and 3054, he commanded the Taurian Guard Corps.  Then he overthrew Mad Tommy and resigned and left.  After that is when Brenda Calderon took over the Taurian Guard Corps.

Patrick Sterling commanded the Concordat Jaegers in 3025.  In 3050, he was the aid to Brenda Calderon, a position he stayed in until the deployment listings in 3064, after Shraplen took over.  I have seen nothing of him since.

Samantha McGrinn commanded the 3rd battalion of the Taurian Guard in 3025.  In 3050, she was the aid to Hadji Doru of the Taurian Guard Corps, a position she stayed in until the deployment listings in 3064.


In short, a study of the commanders of the Corps and the Regiments shows that in every case, the commander of a Corps or Regiment in 3058 was a commander of a regiment or battalion under it in 3025.  The only outliers are the Pleiades Lancers and Taurian Lancers 2nd Regiment which did not exist in 3025.  This shows a standard promotion of rank from 3025 to 3058.



In 3064, I see the following information:
Shraplen is now the Protector.

Boris Tharn is now Senior Marshal.  In 3058, he was the regimental commander of the Pleiades Hussars.  That's a big promotion in six years.  He was a battalion commander in 3025 and is first noted as commanding the Pleiades Hussars in 3050.  In 3085, he is the Protector.  That is a serious promotion plan.  :)

The Commander and aide of the Taurian Guard Corps in 3064, not found in previous listings.

Kai Shoguwa, commander of I Corps, commanded a first battalion of Concordat Jaegers and the Concordat Jaegers regiment from 3050 through 3058.
Her aid was not found in previous listings.

The Commander and aid of II Corps not found in previous listings.

Senior Marshal Boris Tharn also had direct command of III Corps.
His aid, Victor Sharpe (later Senior Marshal in 3085) not found in previous listings.

The Commander and aid of IV Corps not found in previous listings.

The Commander and aid of V Corps not found in previous listings.  New Corps, but I would expect them to use somebody in proven command to form them.

Cham Kithrong, commander of VI Corps, was previously the Commander of the Pleiades Lancers.
His aid was not found in previous listings.


In short, between 3058 and 3064, every single Corps commander and aid was replaced.  Only three of them had been in 3058, and two of THEM commanded Pleiades regiments.


Now let's look at Regiments
Taurian Guard - 1 of 4 commanders is found in previous listings, not the regimental commander
Concordat Commandos - 2 of 4 commanders in previous listings, including regimental commander
Concordat Jaegers - 2 of 4 commanders in previous listings, including regimental commander
The Red Chaussers - 1 of 4 commanders found in previous listings, the regimental commander
Hyades Light Infantry - 1 of 4 commanders found in previous listings, the regimental commander
Pleiades Hussars - 0 of 3 commanders found in previous listings
The Taurian Lancers - 0 of 4 commanders found in previous listings
The Pleiades Lancers - 2 of 4 commanders found in previous listings, including regimental commander
The 2nd Taurian Lancers - 0 of 4 commanders found in previous listings
The 3rd Taurian Lancers - new unit, did not find commanders in previous listings
1st and 2nd Taurian Pride - new units, did not find commanders in previous listings.


Of the Six Corps, only three of them are commanded by established commanders in previous listings.  All six aides are new.
Of the 9 non-new Regiments, only 5 are commanded established regimental or battalion commanders in previous listings.  The 3 new regiments have all new commanders.

From 3025 to 3058, every single Corps or regimental commander (except the new units) were lesser commanders in 3025.

Not considering battalions, only considering regiments and corps, of the 24 command and aid positions short of Senior Marshal and his aid, only 8 of them had previous command experience of battalion or higher as of 3058.  And two of the three corps commanders came from Pleiades Regiments.

One third of the Corps commanders, Corps aids, and Regimental commanders had command experience of a battalion or better SIX YEARS PRIOR.  The other two thirds did NOT.

That is constitutes a near total and complete replacement of the command positions of the Taurian Defense Forces under Shraplen.  THIS was the command structure he used in the war against the Federated Suns.  The VAST majority of it had NO battalion or better command experience a decade before they attacked the Suns.

For a defense force that groomed its commanders for DECADES through time, this is a total loss of command cohesion on a military wide scale.

Where did all these new commanders come from?  I contend that they were people loyal to Shraplen and/or the cause of the Pleiades Returners.

Whatever the case, they ARE new commanders, not found in previous listings, and they appeared under Shraplen, and they were the ones who attacked the Suns and they were the ones who commanded the use of nuclear weapons on the Suns.  People in the vast majority, who had no battalion or better command experience a decade earlier.

Shraplen rewrote the military command.  Any contention that he did not, any contention that it was the military command of the Calderon Protectors who used nukes on the Suns, is patently false based on the information in the books.  It was Sharplen's commanders who did that.

[Medron Pryde]

A slight addendum to the above post.

I noted over and over the fact that six years are between the 3058 and 3064 deployments, noting that the high command was replaced in those six years.  A case can be made that those replacements actually happened in THREE years.

This is based on evidence but IS an assumption.  When you compare the 3054 deployments with the 3058 deployments, a difference between Tommy Calderon and Jeffrey Calderon, only THREE names of commanding officers are changed in those four years.  Victoria Norman was Victoria Newman in 3054, but was Victoria Norman in previous books, so I consider 3054 to be a typographical error.  Cham Kithrong no longer commands the Pleiades Lancers, with a new name not on previous lists now commanding that regiment.  And Hajdi Duru leaves after kicking out Tommy.

Based on this information, I contend that Jeffrey Calderon did not change the overall military command structure during his time as Protector.  He kept the command structure of his father.

Shraplen became Protector in 3061, three years before the deployments noted in 3064.  I contend, based on the evidence that Jeffrey did NOT change the command structure, that it is reasonable to assume that Shraplen made those sweeping changes of the TDF command structure in THREE years, starting in 3061.  I therefore contend that it is reasonable to assume that two thirds of the TDF corp and regimental command structure in 3064, did not command a battalion of 'Mechs in 3061.

I am not surprised that this command structure failed to cohesively fight the Federated Suns less than a decade later.

[Medron Pryde]

One other argument made is that since there was no mass exodus of soldiers or civilians under Shraplen, that everybody agreed with him.

I have noted above that VERY few of the high command still remained, and that even few battalion level commanders remained.

I will also note that between 3066 when the CP was formed and 3085, the military of the Calderon Protectorate grew from 2 'Mech regiments to 5 'Mech regiments and one warship.  This was all without any meaningful BattleMech production, therefore suggesting that many, if not the vast majority, of the new forces all had an exodus from the TC towards the Calderon Protectorate.

As for civilians, in 3034 the CP is noted to have 15 billion people living on its 13 worlds.  Each of those worlds was colonized between 3000 when the colonization programs were shown to begin and 3050 when the worlds were first shown on the maps.  That makes them at most 134 years old, and likely no more than a century old.  In that time, they grew to 15 billion people.  As an example, the United States of America has grown to 300 MILLION people in 300 years.  I do not see any scenario where the worlds of the CP could grow to 15 BILLION people from NOTHING in one century without a MAJOR civilian exodus, most likely from the Taurian Concordat because of their shared heritage.

I therefore contend, based on this evidence, that a military and civilian exodus from the TC to the CP is exactly what the source material shows has happened.

[Stormfury]

Your original claim was this:

All we do know is that there is an interesting change in the leadership of the various regiments between 3062 and 3067.

It is demonstrably false. Between '62 and '66, the purge you claim to have swept through the TDF did not occur.

This shows a standard promotion of rank from 3025 to 3058.

A period of extended peace and quiet for the Concordat. Nobody's military evolved that much in that period aside from that of the Capellans. During peace time, there are fewer opportunities for advancement. You wind up with an ageing and entrenched command structure because promotion is available through what boils down to stepping into a dead man's shoes.

In short, between 3058 and 3064, every single Corps commander and aid was replaced.

Of course, none of this is attributable to simple old age or a generational change in leadership such as that experienced by any other realm. By 3060, the youngest of commanders from 3025 was nearing sixty. Most who commanded a regiment or served as an XO back then would have been in their seventies or even eighties. Tharn is, if your sources are correct, some kind of military savant who managed to earn promotion to battalion command in a prestigious unit whilst still a teenager.

Not considering battalions, only considering regiments and corps, of the 24 command and aid positions short of Senior Marshal and his aid, only 8 of them had previous command experience of battalion or higher as of 3058.  And two of the three corps commanders came from Pleiades Regiments.

The Taurian Defence Force is small, was undergoing a generational change, and we only received information about officers with battalion command rank or above in any of those publications. The smaller the military is under the Field Manual format, the greater the likelihood of an unheralded officer rising through the ranks. This is not evidence of anything sinister taking place. The fact that only one commander is noted as being put in command due to nepotism in FM: P, squarely in the period you appeal to, provides ample proof of that.

Where did all these new commanders come from?  I contend that they were people loyal to Shraplen and/or the cause of the Pleiades Returners.

And considering that the majority of the TDF and indeed the Concordat at large fit under that overly broad umbrella, hardly that surprising. Again, per H: MPS p. 66, and the single most damning criticism of Shraplen I have seen, he was Protector because there were no better candidates and the only thing making him unpopular with the Concordat as a whole was his support for the Trinity Alliance, which the public was in opposition to. Nothing about purges of the officer corps, nothing about dissatisfaction with any other areas of his command. Just the public not being thrilled by his policies. Even the formation of the Calderon Protectorate saw Cham Kithrong's "friends" merely steer him away from triggering a civil war, a war the Protectorate had no hope of winning. And how did they steer him away? By going after the Federated Suns, thanks to the intervention of fate.

Boris Tharn is now Senior Marshal.  In 3058, he was the regimental commander of the Pleiades Hussars.  That's a big promotion in six years.  He was a battalion commander in 3025 and is first noted as commanding the Pleiades Hussars in 3050.  In 3085, he is the Protector.  That is a serious promotion plan.

Boris Tharn was born in 3010. Apparently. At the age of 15 he was apparently a Battalion Commander, usually a job for someone in their 30s. At some stage over the following 25 years he ascended in rank. No more than six years passed before he advanced again from one of the Concordat's most elite commands. Twelve years after that, following an unprecedented and utterly unpredicted asteroid strike on Taurus that wiped out the only two commands and corps that held officers of greater seniority and the leader of the Taurian military, he advanced again.

It is only a "serious promotion plan" if you entirely remove the context it ocurred in. If I removed all the context from Victor Steiner-Davion or Justin Xiang Allard or Ariana Winston's careers, I am sure I could present them in the same light. However, the issues surrounding their rise in rank warrant consideration.

Whatever the case, they ARE new commanders, not found in previous listings, and they appeared under Shraplen, and they were the ones who attacked the Suns and they were the ones who commanded the use of nuclear weapons on the Suns.  People in the vast majority, who had no battalion or better command experience a decade earlier.

And by that stage, you have the TDF's ageing 3025 vanguard finally retiring along with the massive turnover caused by the Jihad. Arguing that Shraplen was specifically promoting those loyal to him is all well and good, but when your supposed evidence for that boils down to the largest war with the most massive casualties we have any real information on the command structures for (ie, the same thing every other faction was going through at the time) you need specific evidence that was the case, not a general "I think it is so."

Were people who were visibly and staunchly loyal promoted? Maybe, maybe not. It was the Jihad, wanting people in positions of power who were operating on the same wavelength is hardly unwarranted.

The problem, however, is that you are stating that Shraplen's actions and views were out of step with the TDF and Concordat as a whole, when it is abundantly clear that they were not. There was a visible opposition to his leadership, and support for it was minimal at best. Even those who felt strong personal loyalty to Kithrong and opposed some of what Shraplen was doing were only willing to go as far as preventing a civil war in 3066, not removing and replacing Shraplen or charting a new course for the Concordat.

If there was a purging of the corps on the scale you contend ocurred, there should be some evidence. When simple circumstance is creating new openings in the command structure through deployment in the St. Ives Compact war, with conflicts against the Colonial Marshals, with the Federated Suns and Jihad as a whole, more than suffice to provide an explanation there needs to be even more direct evidence. No source ever states or even implies a restructuring, and since Kithrong was doing what he could to showcase Shraplen's faults and our information on the Concordat comes largely from those in "opposition" to Shraplen (Brenda Calderon and her friend) one would particularly expect such issues to be front and centre.

I will also note that between 3066 when the CP was formed and 3085, the military of the Calderon Protectorate grew from 2 'Mech regiments to 5 'Mech regiments and one warship.  This was all without any meaningful BattleMech production, therefore suggesting that many, if not the vast majority, of the new forces all had an exodus from the TC towards the Calderon Protectorate.

As stated earlier in the thread, the Protectorate has established Primitive factories and is importing quite heavily from trading partners. If their ranks were swelling so heavily from former TDF members, we could expect to see different equipment and some evidence thereof in the  overviews of the Concordat and Protectorate. Again, however, there is not.

[jeyar]

It is demonstrably false. Between '62 and '66, the purge you claim to have swept through the TDF did not occur.

"purge you claim"?

[Stormfury]

Medron appears to believe that the period in which Shraplen was commander of the TDF and later Protector involved the removal of Cham Kithrong-type officers in favour of Shraplen loyalists.

The problem is that the TDF as a whole (unless Shraplen also swept through the enlisted and junior ranks) obviously favours the traditional lines as embodied by Shraplen rather than Kithrong's outlook. As I outlined earlier, Kithrong and his group of contemporaries was very small, and already on their way out the door in the '60s. Meanwhile, Shraplen getting just one officer into a command rank via nepotism was remarkable enough to get time devoted to it in a document written by one of his opponents.

[Deadborder]

Seconding this. I've been pouring over sources and there's not one single shred of evidence to support the idea of a Shraplen-led purge of the TDF. What this means is that there's no cultural change either; the TDF didn't turn into a bunch of paranoid, reactionary and nuke-happy guys itching for a war with the FedSuns because they allready were that to begin with.

[Medron Pryde]

Well, there's only the fact that is HAPPENED.

Six of Six Corp Marshals gone in the years between 3058 and 3064, one of which we KNOW was in protest against against Shraplen by her own writing.  Did the others retire or were they removed?  We are not told.  Three of the new Marshals were Regimental commanders in 3058.
Six of Six Corp aids gone.  None of them have experience of commanding a BattleMech battalion or above in 3058, a break from previous tradition.

Of the 9 Regimental commanders in 3058, 3 of them are Marshals, and 2 are still Regimental commanders.  The other 4 are gone, 1 because the REGIMENT is gone.  So that makes 3 gone for OTHER reasons.

Of the 26 Battalion commanders in 3058, 7 are still in the military in 3064.

100 percent of the Taurian Corps command structure has been replaced.
7 of 9 Regimental commanders have been replaced, in 3 cases by Battalion commanders.
3 new Regimental commanders introduced with no battalion or better experience.
22 of 26 Battalion commanders have been replaced.
8 new Battalion commanders with no battalion or better experience introduced

Between 3058 and January 1 of 3064.  And as noted, it is logical to assume that the change began in 3061 when Shraplen took over.

By comparison, Stalin purged 3 of his 5 marshals, 13 of 15 army commanders, and 50 of his 57 corps commanders.

Now the fact that there aren't rumors of Taurian Marshals being shot means that Shraplen did not shoot them.  They were simply replaced, and those who did not retire of their own will like Brenda Calderon or die on the job as the Taurian Velite commander may have done were either released from their positions or given desk duty.

It is completely and utterly clear from the books that the military leadership of the Taurian Defense Forces was fundamentally altered in 3064 from the way it was in 3058.  My sources are noted.  Periphery 2nd and Field Manual Periphery.

If you want to say it didn't happen, show how those books are wrong.

[Stormfury]

Again; have a look at the ages of the characters involved and how limited opposition to Shraplen's ideology in fact was. The biggest rumblings in protest to what Shraplen did came not because of his monomaniacal focus on the Suns or beginning the Pleiades campaign, but because he had signed the Trinity Alliance.

Now the fact that there aren't rumors of Taurian Marshals being shot means that Shraplen did not shoot them.

There aren't any rumours about any kind of irregularities whatsoever in the rotation of the upper command ranks, except in one specific and notable case where Shraplen (mis-) used his influence to put a loyalist in charge. Nothing indicates any kind of purge, official or otherwise, and if it being done in a singular instance is worth mentioning, we should have definitely heard about a more widespread program.

If you want to say it didn't happen, show how those books are wrong.

And if you want to say that it did happen, present some evidence demonstrating it did. Because no canon material supports your contention, and we know from FM: P that nepotism remarkable enough to get a loyalist into a command post was noted in a report compiled by someone with inside information and no love for Shraplen.

The simple fact is that everyone's military went through some serious personnel revisions over that period. The old guard of 3025 were getting long in the tooth and retiring; new officers were stepping up. Your "previous tradition" is based on there being no changes in a time of extended peace, when most military TO&Es were simple cut-and-paste jobs from previous sources, not because there is anything stating or even intimating that a purge occurred.

[Deadborder]

Yes, the leadership in the TDF did change; I'm not arguing that. However, I see no evidence at all for your argument that said leadership change was due to Shraplen deliberately removing officers to ensure that "his people" were in charge.

As Stormfury has pointed out, there's not a single mention of any reason for why the turnover in leadership in any book, save for that one incident of nepotisim. Given that there's no proof of it happening at all, then I think it's pretty fair to say that the idea of Shraplen purging the officer corps, forcing people into retirement and ensuring that people he wanted in command were put there is nothing short of pure unsubstantiated speculation.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm open to suggestion; if you can cite me a reference from a book (complete with page numbers and the like so I can check it against my own copies of said books) to suggest that was, indeed, what happened, then I'm willing to concede that, yes, maybe this is what happened. However, for the moment, Stormfury's theory of natural turnover due to age, retirement and the moving of the TDF to a more aggressive footing as a part of the Trinity Alliance are more likely and logical reasons.

[serack]

 im not agrueing one way or the other but, i will point out that any time a person chooses replacements they will be the ones that are closer to there own ideals and agendas. This has happened repeatedly. Now where they replaced for the reason stated by one side of this discusion , or were they just to get like minded in supporting positions and to return favors, support from others idk :)

[Stormfury]

Or, as the books strongly imply if not state outright, the TDF (and Concordat as a whole) was already almost entirely composed of people who were more similar to Shraplen than to Cham Kithrong.

The Concordat has long been established as as xenophobic, paranoid semi-isolationists who launch pre-emptive strikes to head off supposedly impending assaults that would otherwise crush their nation despite said assaults never being planned, never mind prepared for. Departures from that are both rare and brief.

Shraplen, Tharn, and the general course of the Concordat are symptoms of problems dating back centuries, not mere years or even decades. They certainly do not represent a sudden and stunning reversal of the Concordat's established character.

[Gracus]

I think you're over-generalizing.  It's worth pointing out that throughout the Jihad, fringe worlds were seceding from the Taurian Concordat, a trend that will only continue into the Dark Ages.

[Stormfury]

I think you're over-generalizing.

About Taurian history, or about the Concodat throughout the Jihad era? The former is well-established, and is not a recent retcon or flanderisation. The latter is a product of that.

It's worth pointing out that throughout the Jihad, fringe worlds were seceding from the Taurian Concordat, a trend that will only continue into the Dark Ages.

The worlds that seceded from the Concordat during the Jihad were those of the Calderon Protectorate. Post-Jihad, the Concodat sacrificed many worlds and much of its military to hold the Pleiades Cluster, leaving the TDF to small to protect the realm. Even then the planets leaving or abandoned by the Concordat were going independant or appear to have been overtaken by pirates rather than joining the Protectorate or starting their own opposition state.

[Gracus]

You're over-generalizing the response.  Several worlds left before the end of the Jihad that were not part of the protectorate.  The reasons for doing so are not entirely clear, but we know that they did so.  I, however, am going to presume that it indicates a number of people were not toeing the party line in the Concordat.  Make of that what you will.  We both know you can't let an argument die. 

Because I'm a sucker...

By FR: Periphery, Tyrrhenia and Hellespont have seceded without joining the Concordat. 
By FM: 3085, Argos, Carthage, Celano, Micros III, Mirfack, and Carvajal have joined that list. 

As far as I know, only two of those worlds end up joining the Protectorate eventually. 

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that they probably aren't fans of the Shraplen/Tharn regime. 

[Stormfury]

By FR: Periphery, Tyrrhenia and Hellespont have seceded without joining the Concordat.

All we know about those two worlds is that they are lost between 3040 and 3067. Hellespont was being used by the Explorer Corps (perhaps in search of the Minnesota Tribe?). We know even less about Tyrrhenia. ComStar was turfed unceremoniously out of the Concordat after the Schism in favour of the Word of Blake, which was not known to have any similar program; without that investment the planet may not have been particularly of interest to the Concordat or even viable in its own right. If they left the Concordat rather than being abandoned by it as part of opposition to Shraplen, or were important to the Concordat for any reason, presumably we would know about it.

By FM: 3085, Argos, Carthage, Celano, Micros III, Mirfack, and Carvajal have joined that list.

Argos, Carthage, and Micros III were all established during the colonial drive between 3025 and 3040.

Celano/Celarno was originally an independant world, with a very small population. The Concordat's interest in it appears to have begun and ended with the Star League cache there.

I believe Mirfak and Carvajal are the two that join the Protectorate by the Dark Age, and both of those were settled during the colonial drive. IIRC Mirfak was a contested world during the short skirmish between the TDF and Calderon Protectorate which the TDF wound up retaining.

These aren't exactly Taurian core worlds with large populations. They're frontier planets of unknown viability settled primarily by the colonialist/Far Looker movement. That the Calderon Protectorate was established on recently colonised worlds is a pretty strong indication of where any dissent from the typical Concordat mentality can be found.

[Isanova]

We know a bit more about Hellspoint. It's a germanium planet, that was so fed up they basically said "you're sending the TDF to bulk up planets on the border and fight in cappellan space, and ignoring our pleas for help. We're taking our Germanium and saying STFU to the rest of the Concordat. Good day sir!" There was a sidebar, I think in FM: U ? where it said as much.

I've never heard of it being an explorer corps world. Where's that from?

[BrokenMnemonic]

Courtesy of Sarna, it's from page 13 of Explorer Corps.  Checking the sourcebook, it's listed under the Explorer Corps Operations Command 3059 entry as the HQ of the Rimward Operations Area.