Author Topic: Tell me about...the Hypervelocity Autocannons (Read 11079 times)

Alan Grant · « **on:** 24 February 2013, 11:43:25 »

I am a little intrigued by these, especially the combo of range and damage potential of the Hypervelocity AC-10. I'm curious what others think of them. I'm considering mounting the HVAC-10 as the main weapon in a heavy tank.

Ian Sharpe · « **Reply #1 on:** 24 February 2013, 11:46:32 »

Aren't those the ones that blow up on a roll of 2? Just take an LB-10.

Diablo48 · « **Reply #2 on:** 24 February 2013, 13:16:20 »

I would say no on the 10 in general. Even ignoring the extra 5 points of heat generation because you are looking at a tank, when compared to the 10-X you are paying another 3 tons, the risk of explosions, reduced ammo count, and the ability to fire cluster rounds for an additional two hexes of max range (short and medium are the same). I just cannot see any way that is justifiable next to the other options you could use. You are only one ton short of a full Gauss Rifle at that point, and if you are really that tight on mass you can just downgrade to a 10-X and toss a LRM 5 with a ton of ammo in the 3 tons you get back for improved performance.

The 2 and 5 are slightly more justifiable because they get into the stupid long ranges category, but even so you are probably better off with Extended LRMs which are more efficient at range at the cost of an enormous 10 hex minimum range band.

martian · « **Reply #3 on:** 24 February 2013, 13:28:44 »

Quote from: Alan Grant on 24 February 2013, 11:43:25

I am a little intrigued by these, especially the combo of range and damage potential of the Hypervelocity AC-10. I'm curious what others think of them. I'm considering mounting the HVAC-10 as the main weapon in a heavy tank.

Actually, there is one heavy tank using HVAC-10. It's Po Tank upgrade from TRO: Prototypes.

I could disregard weight, less ammo, etc., but that spontaneous explosion just "kills it". Ultracannons can get jammed, but this ...

Just imagine you have a battalion of tanks, your tanks start firing, enemy is not even in range of his guns - and the number of your tanks is being reduced by one, round after round ...

Moonsword · « **Reply #4 on:** 24 February 2013, 14:31:15 »

Quote from: Alan Grant on 24 February 2013, 11:43:25

I am a little intrigued by these, especially the combo of range and damage potential of the Hypervelocity AC-10. I'm curious what others think of them. I'm considering mounting the HVAC-10 as the main weapon in a heavy tank.

Take a look at the HVAC/10. Now take a look at the Gauss rifle, which does 50% more damage at a longer range for one ton more. On ASFs and 'Mechs, which have to deal with the HVAC's heat, the HVAC/10 frequently winds up as the heavier weapon once you account for the heat sinks. If you don't want to find the one ton it takes to go Gauss or the minimum range isn't acceptable in this situation, save some tonnage and go for the LB 10-X or even an Ultra/10. Neither one explodes just from pulling the trigger.

The HVAC/5 does manage to out-range the LGR and lacks the minimum. The LGR still does 60% more damage and lacks the HVAC/5's charming self-immolation habit. It's also competing with the mid-weight ELRM launchers, which generate a lot of heat, need more ammo, and have a heinous minimum range but are significantly superior in the sniper category as well as being able to be fired indirectly. If you're not looking for a sniping weapon, the LB 10-X is slightly lighter albeit much bulkier.

HVAC/2s are less objectionable, being lighter and doing less damage on a fumbled roll as well as having a truly great range. However, because they have a much longer reach and more ammo per ton, you'll probably fire them more often, too, so they're arguably more likely to explode than at least the HVAC/10 is. At this size and for their primary role, they're competing directly with the ELRM 5, which is lighter but does more heat and has that 10 hex minimum range to worry about. This is the one HVAC that doesn't make me automatically start looking for spare parts to replace it with.

Prince of Darkness · « **Reply #5 on:** 24 February 2013, 15:05:58 »

Moonsword got it to me. There really is no reason to mount one over a gauss rifle, even despite the "interesting" side effect of the smoke that is generated from it's firing.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #6 on:** 24 February 2013, 15:14:27 »

HVACs have such heavy disadvantages that I've sometimes wondered if the in-universe design was actually done as an act of sabotage by the FedSuns (since they're listed as having been developed by the Capellan Confederation).

YingJanshi · « **Reply #7 on:** 24 February 2013, 16:27:25 »

What about in-universe cost? Aren't the rather cheaper than Gauss Rifles or ERLMs?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #8 on:** 24 February 2013, 16:42:33 »

ERLRM 5s are cheaper than any of the HVACs, but HVAC ammo is exponentially cheaper than ERLRM ammo.

Moonsword · « **Reply #9 on:** 24 February 2013, 18:56:59 »

Quote from: YingJanshi on 24 February 2013, 16:27:25

What about in-universe cost? Aren't the rather cheaper than Gauss Rifles or ERLMs?

Gauss rifles are 300k. HVAC/10s are 230k. Both have 20k C-Bill ammo lots. (For the record, the LB 10-X is actually more expensive than either one, commanding a price of 400k C-Bills.) Considering the difference in performance, that's a price I'm willing to pay and I expect a lot of other people would be willing to fork over a little under a 1/3 increase in price for a 50% jump in damage and better range. On a per point basis, Gauss rifles are actually slightly cheaper at 20k C-Bills per point of damage, HVAC/10s running to 23k. Admittedly, you can't cut the numbers quite that efficiently in-universe but the fact that Gauss rifles are headcappers and HVAC/10s aren't is going to be readily apparent.

It's even cheaper when you remember that an HVAC has a vastly higher chance of catastrophically misfiring and requiring replacement. In most vehicles, that's going to be replacement of the entire tank. Gauss rifles will do more damage if they're hit while charged, no question about that, but in my experience, it's more common for a Gauss rifle to roll a 2 than it is for it to eat a crit. Keep in mind that unlike Gauss ammo, HVAC ammo is still explosive, and unlike Gauss rifles, HVAC ammo will explode due to overheating like any other kind of AC ammo will.

HVAC/5s are cheaper compared to LGRs, which are quite pricey for what they do but the same survivability calculations are in play. I think the incidence of explosive misfires is still going to give the LGR the edge here.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #10 on:** 24 February 2013, 18:59:58 »

Since HVACs use Advanced Rules to begin with (smoke), any comparison between them and Gauss Rifles should also consider the Advanced Gauss Rifle shutdown rules, which make Gauss Rifles a lot safer.

Moonsword · « **Reply #11 on:** 24 February 2013, 19:05:51 »

Yeah, that's going to have an impact as well.

SCC · « **Reply #12 on:** 24 February 2013, 19:42:38 »

If a tank like the Po has a HVAC-10 in its turret and the gun goes up, is the tank truly destroyed?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #13 on:** 24 February 2013, 20:24:00 »

Probably not, that's a 10 point explosion to the Turret location, IIRC, and the Po HV is fairly durable: it's got 21 points of Hardened Armor in the turret. But it is going to be more or less out of the battle at that point.

Alan Grant · « **Reply #14 on:** 24 February 2013, 21:23:18 »

How is this explosion factor handled? Is it like a crit? Something making it an armored component might mitigate a little?

Really just sating my own curiosity at this point. The news that the thing can blow up killed the idea of using one. #P

Maelwys · « **Reply #15 on:** 24 February 2013, 22:03:33 »

Its an internal explosion equal to the damage value of the weapon. So that 10 point explosion is going to blow the turret off the Po. Atleast as far as I know.

Kind of makes the 21 points of Hardened Armor amusing, considering you're just as likely to simply blow your top from shooting the gun.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #16 on:** 24 February 2013, 22:34:23 »

As the Po HV does not appear to mount CASE, yeah, if the HVAC explodes it's going to pop the turret right off the tank.

Which creates a rather amusing mental image, as well as turning the crew into spaghetti sauce. ;D

Diablo48 · « **Reply #17 on:** 24 February 2013, 23:54:03 »

Quote from: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 24 February 2013, 22:34:23

As the Po HV does not appear to mount CASE, yeah, if the HVAC explodes it's going to pop the turret right off the tank.

Which creates a rather amusing mental image, as well as turning the crew into spaghetti sauce. ;D

Ok, I really have to wonder what idiot thought that combination was a good idea. It is bad enough to mount a weapon that could randomly kill the tank during normal use, but not including CASE when you do it is just unbelievable. No one in their right mind would ever agree to climb into that deathtrap, much less ride it into combat.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #18 on:** 24 February 2013, 23:58:00 »

It's Capellan.

YingJanshi · « **Reply #19 on:** 25 February 2013, 00:03:03 »

Quote from: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 24 February 2013, 23:58:00

It's Capellan.

And what's that supposed to mean?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #20 on:** 25 February 2013, 00:09:51 »

It's probably built as a punishment.

Headshot · « **Reply #21 on:** 25 February 2013, 01:07:54 »

Quote from: YingJanshi on 25 February 2013, 00:03:03

And what's that supposed to mean?

Simple, "It's Capellan" is the logical, believable, understandable and even correct answer to "Who in their right mind would ever agree to climb into that deathtrap, much less ride it into combat?" ;D

On the HVAC, its an obvious dead-end technology. I'd rather take a standard AC with special ammo, or a UAC of whatever size fits, and thats while i loathe the Ultras below 20.
I usually try to replace the UAC-10 with a Gauss Rifle as fast as i can (ENF-6M is a nice example), and the HVAC-10 is even a ton heavier.
My prefered autocannon on tanks is the UAC-20 btw. Massive damage, and you can just ignore the 16 heat. Feels almost like cheating.

ScannerError · « **Reply #22 on:** 25 February 2013, 01:47:40 »

The HVAC-10 might have been acceptable if it was around in the old L1 days, competing against the AC 10, PPC, and AC/20 as a main gun. Once L2 tech hits, the 10 is junk. I'm still annoyed by the HVAC Po's design, though at least it's easy to swap the HVAC for an AC 20 to make a brutal cityfighting version.

The HVAC-5 has a tiny niche, and the LGR is a very healthy alternative. Only real advantage it has is the bit of extra range.

The HVAC-2 has extreme range with a tiny minimum range, though it competes with the ELRM 5. 8 tons for 2 damage is a poor rate of return, but it does have a role. Surprisingly fun to take a few Scorpions (nobody cares about them anyway) and refit them with these, then have the smoke from the firing obscure a LRM carrier or two. Doesn't even destroy the turret on a 2. Not the most optimal (some smoke SRMs from an SRM carrier would probably be a better idea), but it works. The range lets it do AA duty as well, and a lithobraking is just as lethal when it comes from a HVAC hit.

I think that the HVAC was intentionally gimped compared to other weapons, as there's just so few ways to actually use them. The always-there explosion chance is horrible. If they could at least use the standard AC alternate ammo they'd have a decent (if still explosive) niche, but as they cant...

Ryumyo · « **Reply #23 on:** 25 February 2013, 01:57:11 »

I like the HVAC-2. Especially when paired up with ELRMs for the effect of using the AC as a "spotter rifle" and following up with massive amounts of missles. Sort of how tank guns work, co-axial MG " to-hit " then main barrel " 'da pain ".

Nav_Alpha · « **Reply #24 on:** 25 February 2013, 01:59:11 »

Quote from: Headshot on 25 February 2013, 01:07:54

Simple, "It's Capellan" is the logical, believable, understandable and even correct answer to "Who in their right mind would ever agree to climb into that deathtrap, much less ride it into combat?" ;D

Actually... Pretty much any tank crewman ever... They breed us short, stocky and stupid...

Seriously though, the HV/10 just doesn't seem worth it.

From memory, are the Ice Hellions obsessed with them? I seem to remember them having a lot of mechs mounting them.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #25 on:** 25 February 2013, 02:09:29 »

No, HVACs are IS only tech and the Hellions were wiped out before the guns attracted any significant attention. You might be thinking of HAGs.

glitterboy2098 · « **Reply #26 on:** 25 February 2013, 02:14:54 »

question.. does the HVAC have a lower technology rating than a guass rifle?

one would imagine that what is basically a supercharged autocannon would be simpler to build than a guass rifle. the Confederation had been suffering from industrial issues prior to Xin Sheng due to a combination of half their infrastructure being in davion hands, and much of the rest horribly mismanaged due to a couple generations of crazy rulers. so it would make sense if the CC chose to focus more on developing the tech they could produce to new heights, rather than try to get actual intelligent infrastructure improvements past Romano. even after the CC retook much of what they lost, during the team up with the FWL in 3057, they wouldn't have been able to immediately utilize what they regained.

Nav_Alpha · « **Reply #27 on:** 25 February 2013, 02:18:04 »

Quote from: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 25 February 2013, 02:09:29

No, HVACs are IS only tech and the Hellions were wiped out before the guns attracted any significant attention. You might be thinking of HAGs.

Ah! You're right! Sorry

Kotetsu · « **Reply #28 on:** 25 February 2013, 03:03:24 »

Since the HV ACs appear to have first shown up in Maximum Tech, it is possible they started designing the weapons, but once they got access to more reliable weaponry they set the idea aside. Then the Jihad happened. And since everyone was throwing everything they could into production, and the Capellan military tends to both not care about their men, and a slightly psychotic, the weaponry was rushed into service. Whether they stay in service or are reduced to niche roles remains to be seen.

As for me, I'm willing to put anything into testing at least once or twice... And the extreme range on the HVAC 2 makes me slightly giddy.

Then again, I have created what amounts to super-JagerMechs, loaded with nothing but Class-2 autocannons before. The ones wielding RACs have... extremely nasty "death by papercut" possibilities.

Martius · « **Reply #29 on:** 25 February 2013, 04:54:41 »

I was surprised how much fun the HVAC 2 can be.

Used a Dreadnought MKII and its mix of HVACs and ERLMs helped me to immobilize/mission kill my opponent's vee long before they came into range.

The class 5 I found less useful and I never would take the class 10 but the 2... yeah. I like it somehow.

UnLimiTeD · « **Reply #30 on:** 25 February 2013, 08:51:42 »

I once built an Atlas for Megamech with 4 HVAC2s. Used two of them against a Bot.
For some reason, they fired twice a round, as if a UAC in permanent Ultra Mode, and at some point blew up on a 4.
Set a hex on fire and the smoke covered a third of the playing field...
Would they be useful if they'd practically be Ultras?
Also, would HVACs have any bracketing advantages in ASFs?
Namely the 2?

Moonsword · « **Reply #31 on:** 25 February 2013, 13:44:12 »

Quote from: Kotetsu on 25 February 2013, 03:03:24

Since the HV ACs appear to have first shown up in Maximum Tech, it is possible they started designing the weapons, but once they got access to more reliable weaponry they set the idea aside.

They had access to more reliable weapons already. The Gauss-armed Huron Warrior went into service in 3055, the same year HVAC research started. The CTF-3L debuted in 3050 and was built in large numbers, meaning they had plenty of LB 10-Xs, too.

Quote from: UnLimiTeD on 25 February 2013, 08:51:42

Also, would HVACs have any bracketing advantages in ASFs?
Namely the 2?

No. LB 2-Xs are lighter and don't explode but already reach into extreme range.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #32 on:** 25 February 2013, 14:15:04 »

HVAC 2s do offer 2 points of damage rather than the 1 point dealt by LB-2Xs on ASFs, but I wouldn't say that exactly makes up for all their downsides.

Maelwys · « **Reply #33 on:** 25 February 2013, 14:38:41 »

So the rules for the HVAC say to inflict internal explosion damage equal to that of a single round, and destroy all of the HVAC's criticals. They also say to treat it as an ammo explosion.

So does that mean that on vehicles, all of the ammo cooks off, since that's what happens in ammo explosions for vehicles?

So on the Po, you roll a 2, inflict 10 points of damage to your structure (destroying the turret) and then have the remaining HVAC and Streak ammo explode, doing yet more damage to the turret?

Not only does the HVAC kill the tank just from firing the weapon, but it doesn't leave a crew or much to salvage.

I can see the Po (HVAC) being a limited production run during the Jihad if they were running low on regular Autocannons and had to make do, but it really stretches the imagination that these things went into regular production.

Kotetsu · « **Reply #34 on:** 25 February 2013, 14:53:16 »

Think the ammo explosion note is more for the two pilot hits it inflicts on a 'Mech pilot... and the crit check.

YingJanshi · « **Reply #35 on:** 25 February 2013, 18:26:02 »

Ok, what about the HVAC/20? Thoughts?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #36 on:** 25 February 2013, 18:43:56 »

What HVAC 20? The gun only goes up to a size 10.

Moonsword · « **Reply #37 on:** 25 February 2013, 18:45:19 »

Quote from: YingJanshi on 25 February 2013, 18:26:02

Ok, what about the HVAC/20? Thoughts?

Since it doesn't exist, any discussion of fan interpretations of such a weapon needs to take place in Fan Designs, not here.

Quote from: Kotetsu on 25 February 2013, 14:53:16

Think the ammo explosion note is more for the two pilot hits it inflicts on a 'Mech pilot... and the crit check.

To my knowledge, yes. It's treated like a Gauss rifle explosion and is handled the same way. (Note the same ammunition explosion language is used in the Gauss rifle rules.)

Quote from: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 25 February 2013, 14:15:04

HVAC 2s do offer 2 points of damage rather than the 1 point dealt by LB-2Xs on ASFs, but I wouldn't say that exactly makes up for all their downsides.

Nope. ELRMs or LGRs are definitely better choices in that role. Especially the LGR. 8 points is still enough to threshold the wings on a lot of fighters, even relatively large ones.

YingJanshi · « **Reply #38 on:** 25 February 2013, 19:29:04 »

Quote

Quote
Ok, what about the HVAC/20? Thoughts?
Since it doesn't exist, any discussion of fan interpretations of such a weapon needs to take place in Fan Designs, not here.

Oops, sorry, didn't realize it didn't exist (haven't looked over TacOps in awhile...).

Orin J. · « **Reply #39 on:** 26 February 2013, 01:39:51 »

it's too bad, the HVAC is rather obviously a prototype weapon of some potential they stopped developing because of the new tech influx of 3050 and is forever stuck in its awkward phase of being a "viable" weapon that has far too many problems to be useful. maybe someday they're get refined enough to be worthwhile, but they're too unstable.....

Moonsword · « **Reply #40 on:** 26 February 2013, 13:16:30 »

Quote from: Orin J. on 26 February 2013, 01:39:51

it's too bad, the HVAC is rather obviously a prototype weapon of some potential they stopped developing because of the new tech influx of 3050 and is forever stuck in its awkward phase of being a "viable" weapon that has far too many problems to be useful.

The HVAC research program didn't even start until 3055, something I already pointed out, and the prototypes weren't available until 3059. Star League technology was already being deployed aggressively when the program started, with more of it reaching the field every day. This isn't something the Capellans shelved because of the Helm Core.

It was shelved because as people have explained several times, the technology is dangerous and doesn't work very well compared to more common and less risky alternatives. Even if you eliminate the tendency to explode, the performance of the HVAC/10 is miserable compared to the Gauss rifle and the LB 10-X, both of them weapons that have an established supply chain and maintenance capacity. It's managing to take the worst features of ballistics (explosive ammo, weight) and the worst features of energy weapons (heat), then pile them together into a 14 ton pile of "Should Have Used A Gauss Rifle".

Not every research program winds up being a viable combat weapon. The tragedy here isn't that HVACs aren't very good weapons. Tough luck, better luck next time, and the AC/5 sent you a "Bad Autocannon Club" membership card. It's the fact that someone at Lockheed was short-sighted or delusional enough to leave them on the RPR-300S instead of investing the time and money to properly rearm the plane with the Gauss rifles that would make it another entry in the Lyrans' panoply of terrifyingly deadly heavy fighters. (That last part probably has something to do with why the decision wasn't made at CGL, mind you.)

UnLimiTeD · « **Reply #41 on:** 26 February 2013, 22:25:33 »

Heh, I'd have loved to have a review of that fighter model, what with it's armament being so 'quirky', but then stopping there.^^

Thatguybil · « **Reply #42 on:** 26 February 2013, 22:56:44 »

The crazy thing is that an LBX-10 costs more than a gauss rifle...?

Gryphon · « **Reply #43 on:** 05 March 2013, 21:02:52 »

It's like they looked at everything that in real life makes a caseless weapon non-viable, and then decided it needed to explode as well!

Amusingly, that Po with the HVAC 10, no CASE and Hardened Armor Basically means that in any real setting the tank may or may not survive the ten point hit but the super tough armor guarantees that the resulting explosion turns the inside of the tank into a chunky salsa room ala Shadow Run!

These really needed better range and the smoke effect with heavier weights and heat. Caseless rounds shouldn't take up more room than a standard round, any weapon that explodes at random is not fit for military use, and marginally better long range brackets is an insult to idea in general. Clearly this was never intended to be a viable weapon system, and having variants of standard combat units in even limited production shows that sometimes bribes will get anything through oversight!

chanman · « **Reply #44 on:** 05 March 2013, 23:11:27 »

Quote from: Moonsword on 26 February 2013, 13:16:30

The HVAC research program didn't even start until 3055, something I already pointed out, and the prototypes weren't available until 3059. Star League technology was already being deployed aggressively when the program started, with more of it reaching the field every day. This isn't something the Capellans shelved because of the Helm Core.

It was shelved because as people have explained several times, the technology is dangerous and doesn't work very well compared to more common and less risky alternatives. Even if you eliminate the tendency to explode, the performance of the HVAC/10 is miserable compared to the Gauss rifle and the LB 10-X, both of them weapons that have an established supply chain and maintenance capacity. It's managing to take the worst features of ballistics (explosive ammo, weight) and the worst features of energy weapons (heat), then pile them together into a 14 ton pile of "Should Have Used A Gauss Rifle".

Not every research program winds up being a viable combat weapon. The tragedy here isn't that HVACs aren't very good weapons. Tough luck, better luck next time, and the AC/5 sent you a "Bad Autocannon Club" membership card. It's the fact that someone at Lockheed was short-sighted or delusional enough to leave them on the RPR-300S instead of investing the time and money to properly rearm the plane with the Gauss rifles that would make it another entry in the Lyrans' panoply of terrifyingly deadly heavy fighters. (That last part probably has something to do with why the decision wasn't made at CGL, mind you.)

The Lyrans are oddly reluctant to use Gauss rifles on fighters. Production's probably sucked up by mechs and tanks. Off the top of my head, just the Eisensturm R3 and Prime and one of the Lightning variants are Gauss-armed. The Lyrans seem to actually have more HGR configurations/fighters.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire · « **Reply #45 on:** 06 March 2013, 00:05:59 »

There's also the Royal Thunderbird, though strangely the MUL lists it as a FedSuns ASF.

SCC · « **Reply #46 on:** 06 March 2013, 00:48:37 »

Quote from: Gryphon on 05 March 2013, 21:02:52

These really needed better range and the smoke effect with heavier weights and heat. Caseless rounds shouldn't take up more room than a standard round, any weapon that explodes at random is not fit for military use, and marginally better long range brackets is an insult to idea in general. Clearly this was never intended to be a viable weapon system, and having variants of standard combat units in even limited production shows that sometimes bribes will get anything through oversight!

Except people did in real life, Cannons had a chance to explode, which goes up if you use a double charge, but there were ways to test for it (Proof with a quadruple charge). However in that case there wasn't another weapon that could be used in it's stead, that doesn't apply here

Orin J. · « **Reply #47 on:** 06 March 2013, 01:05:53 »

wait, four years? it was only four years from starting the program to "field-ready" prototypes? i thought they'd been worked on longer.....explains their current "pack in too much power so the slug will go further" design. #P

Nightsong · « **Reply #48 on:** 20 March 2013, 18:24:01 »

Quote from: Thatguybil on 26 February 2013, 22:56:44

The crazy thing is that an LBX-10 costs more than a gauss rifle...?

Bet it's the more complicated feed system. There's only one type of gauss slug, while the LB-x has to deal with standard and proximity fused rounds in separate bins.

Moonsword · « **Reply #49 on:** 21 March 2013, 11:22:06 »

That would be my bet if I were going to place one, yeah.

SCC · « **Reply #50 on:** 21 March 2013, 18:31:00 »

Not so much the feed system I'd say as the design of the barrel, I always got the impression that LB-X barrel's were different to normal AC's

Moonsword · « **Reply #51 on:** 21 March 2013, 19:00:46 »

I suspect that has much more to do with the materials it's made of (which probably have something to do with why the LAC/5 is costlier than the AC/5) than the fact it's a smooth-bore. (Smooth-bores may actually be cheaper to manufacture from a little poking around but I'm not a firearms afficianado.)

chanman · « **Reply #52 on:** 21 March 2013, 20:46:54 »

Quote from: Moonsword on 21 March 2013, 19:00:46

I suspect that has much more to do with the materials it's made of (which probably have something to do with why the LAC/5 is costlier than the AC/5) than the fact it's a smooth-bore. (Smooth-bores may actually be cheaper to manufacture from a little poking around but I'm not a firearms afficianado.)

They are. There are a variety of ways rifling can be added, but they all involve a lot of precise removal of material (by mechanical cutting or electro-chemical process) or some hardcore deformation of some very high-strength steel (button or cold-hammer forged rifling)

My take on on the LB-x is the added cost probably comes from the integral fire-control system. Cluster rounds aren't like shotgun rounds. They are a single cohesive round fused to release explosive submunitions near the target like some kind of mutant cross of a proximity-fused flak round and a cluster bomb (As the ammunition name kinda gives away). The simplest way to achieve this would be for the autocannon to use the mech's targeting data to set the appropriate burst distance for the fuses, but that's a bunch of electronics not required on standard ACs, and in CBT, electronics have a tendency to be heavy and expensive.

Programmable autocannon rounds, by the way, have existed for a while: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7WqCbIpbjk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbWQjF2BJ0E

A. Lurker · « **Reply #53 on:** 28 March 2013, 14:20:38 »

Quote from: Maelwys on 25 February 2013, 14:38:41

So the rules for the HVAC say to inflict internal explosion damage equal to that of a single round, and destroy all of the HVAC's criticals. They also say to treat it as an ammo explosion.

So does that mean that on vehicles, all of the ammo cooks off, since that's what happens in ammo explosions for vehicles?

So on the Po, you roll a 2, inflict 10 points of damage to your structure (destroying the turret) and then have the remaining HVAC and Streak ammo explode, doing yet more damage to the turret?

Bit late to the party, but I remember asking more or less that question a good while ago and eventually finally getting an answer that seems to amount to "no, the ammo doesn't also brew up". Here you go.

Essentially, the idea seems to be that normally all ammo in a vehicle explodes at once on a critical hit because it's all stashed in the notional "Body" location, but since an exploding weapon will generally be located somewhere else (namely turret, front, side, or rear) that rule doesn't apply. CASE will still redirect all ammo-explosion-type damage to the rear armor, and it's probably best not to think too hard about the "Ammunition" critical hit slot on every turret. ;)