BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Universe => The Periphery => Topic started by: Bergie on 09 April 2013, 17:34:55
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So, what do you think of what happened?
1) I am happy that it seems that the Taurian Nations are opening a dialog. We'll see if Kaff Doru is willing to let it happen (military Juntas are not entirely known for being the most open for diplomacy and democracy). Then again, if enough people want it, it will happen. It is just a matter of how much blood is to be spent.
2) The Magistracy is. . . boring as usual. Ever since they became the Mini-Capellans, I've lost all interest in them. They are TOO successful for their own good. The Magistrix is interesting, for much the same reason Caleb Hasek-Sandoval-Steiner-Davion was also interesting (that "what kooky, horrifyingly immoral thing is he going to do next?!" kind of thing).
3) The Raven Alliance is also kind of blah, but has its high points. Turning into an interesting experiment, but all of the OA character seems to have been lost.
4) The Hegemony seems to have entered a major holding pattern ever since losing the Lothan Worlds and gained a few former CF and FWL worlds. I was hoping for more, at least a couple more CF worlds now that they have given up their claim on Logan Prime!
5) Disappointed that the Barrens, Fronc, and the Rim Territories didn't get a mention, but you can't have everything you want in 200 pages ;)
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I find it interesting that the RA and Concordat are still doing business. Similarly, the commercial relations between the Concordat and Hegemony seem to have grown stronger as well. There isn't much to indicate if these relations are deeper than commercial, but it's nice to see that at least some of the Periphery is still trying to work together.
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I was also hoping for a little more myself about the periphery.
1.)The TC and CP should have a long way to go before they patch things up, but there is some good story lines there.
2.) Totally agree here, so far they just seem to be a way to make the CC powerful enough to take on their neighbors.
3.) This is the one faction in all the BT universe that should have more growing pains, how does a peaceful nation accept a warrior clan so easily?
4.) I don't mind the consolidation of the Hegemony, I just want some real info on them. I'm hoping for a Objectives style book to clear things up.
5.) Again I agree how about a Periphery 3145 book?
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3.) This is the one faction in all the BT universe that should have more growing pains, how does a peaceful nation accept a warrior clan so easily?
It's worse than that actually. Remember that the OWA's highest award for valor is named after the group that fought the Star League after the Star League decimated (literally killed 10%) the population of a dozen OWA worlds. How a group for whom the Star League is a curse word peacefully merged with a bunch of warrior fanatics who worship the league is something that has never been explained.
My personal theory is that no one at WizKids bothered to read any part of the OWA's fluff before saddling them with a clan.
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The Outworlds Alliance was based on pacifism, the military buildup of the Long Road programme wasn't particularly liked and the Ravens have largely kept to themselves while improving things like medical technology. The Star League starved, killed and oppressed the population of the OA to get them fighting so it's not surprising that the reaction to the Ravens, who have done none of this, has been very low key. I also think that the main problem is in having very little information about the nation, things on the surface are fairly peaceful but the President satirizes the Clan and his brother is rumoured to be involved in extremist anti-Raven groups so things might not be as nice as they seem.
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I was surprised about the Calderon Protectorade new BA. Either they have a very goo PR department, or they are making some deals with the Fox, because even the Dominion are using that tiny BA.
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The Outworlds Alliance was based on pacifism, the military buildup of the Long Road programme wasn't particularly liked and the Ravens have largely kept to themselves while improving things like medical technology. The Star League starved, killed and oppressed the population of the OA to get them fighting so it's not surprising that the reaction to the Ravens, who have done none of this, has been very low key. I also think that the main problem is in having very little information about the nation, things on the surface are fairly peaceful but the President satirizes the Clan and his brother is rumoured to be involved in extremist anti-Raven groups so things might not be as nice as they seem.
And when we remember that the Ravens had plan B (hostile takeover) in the back of their minds in case negotiation did not work out with the OA, that last bit could lead to lots of trouble soon.
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2) The Magistracy is. . . boring as usual. Ever since they became the Mini-Capellans, I've lost all interest in them. They are TOO successful for their own good. The Magistrix is interesting, for much the same reason Caleb Hasek-Sandoval-Steiner-Davion was also interesting (that "what kooky, horrifyingly immoral thing is he going to do next?!" kind of thing).
Unfortunately I can't really rebut this too much. I'm hoping that with the FM and most likely the Capellan TRO (sigh..too much to hope its labeled the CapCon/Magistracy TRO?) that we might get more data about anything that's going on. As it is, they're in the same position the Horses find themselves it seems. Not doing much, except how it relates to some other faction.
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1) I am happy that it seems that the Taurian Nations are opening a dialog. We'll see if Kaff Doru is willing to let it happen (military Juntas are not entirely known for being the most open for diplomacy and democracy). Then again, if enough people want it, it will happen. It is just a matter of how much blood is to be spent.
Maybe they will have a multi-round swearing contest and for each round that goes to a side that side gets to add an element to the reconstituted TC? >:D
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I think it's quite unfortunate the writing on the Marian Hegemony, CF and worlds conquered FWL listed are the usual suspects since 3080. Unable to take a miserable world of Circinus Ex? Paulinus recolonize Failed? I remember that was left by the destruction of its water purification in 50 years no one thought it would be a good idea recolonizarlo to have a jump point nearest the Lothians? Lathi and San Nicolas indepedientes there are just as many nearby worlds, the MH does not have the strength to conquer or colonize those worlds? It seems to me that if the only thing good are the BA and the tank and little else.
A book Periphery 3145 would be fine as long as they write a bit more of the MH because there is too much writing
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The Legions really have lost their bite after the Jihad- or we suffer from weak leadership. Or both.
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Until 3090 the veteran leadership and the veteran legions and cohorts were many elite, I think it's more likely a chain of 1 or 2 Rulers useless for any service ...
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The Legions really have lost their bite after the Jihad- or we suffer from weak leadership. Or both.
You're suffering from extremely bipolar leadership. Someone needs to ship that guy some meds.
The thing that's really bugging me about the periphery is the marriage between Ilsa Liao-Centrella and Ari Humphreys, especially with Andurien trying to become little-neutral-space-switzerland for years. was Was it a quick reaction to the creation of the FWL to maintain Andurien's independence? Are they aiming for a merger? What's going onnnnn
The succession issues in that little corner of space are going to be ugly, made only worse by the fact that the only possible heir to the three realms, Danai, is a bad politician AND suffers from untreated PTSD that makes her go batcrap-insane whenever she's a bit stressed out.
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The succession issues in that little corner of space are going to be ugly, made only worse by the fact that the only possible heir to the three realms, Danai, is a bad politician AND suffers from untreated PTSD that makes her go batcrap-insane whenever she's a bit stressed out.
Which is really kind of odd. The only time in the book she's mentioned as going a little extreme is on New Hessen. The earlier novels have her dealing with her issues, but also confronting and putting them behind her. The traits provided in the ER are rather...well.
I would note that they say she's just a "regular" level politician, not that she's necessarily bad at it. After all, she renegotiated the treaty with Jessica Marik, and did it without giving away anything about Andurien.
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The Legions really have lost their bite after the Jihad- or we suffer from weak leadership. Or both.
+1
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2) The Magistracy is. . . boring as usual. Ever since they became the Mini-Capellans, I've lost all interest in them. They are TOO successful for their own good. The Magistrix is interesting, for much the same reason Caleb Hasek-Sandoval-Steiner-Davion was also interesting (that "what kooky, horrifyingly immoral thing is he going to do next?!" kind of thing).
Wasn't hard to see where the Magistracy was going when they must have gained a patron author to boost them above the Taurians so quickly. Taurians had the best Periphery military academy? BAM! Now Canopus doe. Taurians have professional generals? BAM! Now Canopus has a Taurian-born commander. Taurian have the largest Periphery military? Well let's add about 5 BattleMech regiments in a 3 year in-game period out of thin air, and heck, let's beef up two militia formations into full-blown line regiments themselves! BAM!
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Which is really kind of odd. The only time in the book she's mentioned as going a little extreme is on New Hessen. The earlier novels have her dealing with her issues, but also confronting and putting them behind her. The traits provided in the ER are rather...well.
I would note that they say she's just a "regular" level politician, not that she's necessarily bad at it. After all, she renegotiated the treaty with Jessica Marik, and did it without giving away anything about Andurien.
Wait.
Heir to multiple realms? Middling politician? Friends with nobility of other Great Houses?
Danai is the CapCon's Victor Steiner-Davion.
The Wheel truly does turn. ;D
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The entire era suffers from too little information generally as well as some of the filled in details not giving much room for development imo. Now that we are pretty much past the section mapped out by/under Wizkids i think all bets are off with regards to stagnancy like the Hegemony and Magistracy.
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As for the MH . . . we know the Rim Commonality took Astrokrasy at some point before the Dark Ages, besides fighting any on planet forces what about the MH weighing in? They fought over the world before in a three way fight, and this time around the FWL is not there to be a giant squishing bugs.
A bad bad loss on Astrokrasy between the Jihad and Dark Ages could have definately checked any potential growth and discouraged adventurism with the Legions.
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Who in their right mind would actually *want* Astrokrasy?
That's like saying you want someone to leave a big, steaming pile of Bantha poodoo on your doorstep.
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...welcome to the Periphery?
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The Rim Commonality took it . . . probably to wipe out the pirate nest Blakist encouraged, and I think its on their trade route to Niops. It also provides a check to the Marians IIRC.
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Nothing like a bit of interstellar politics to make everyone sad.
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>:D [skull] >:D No need to be sad!!! Soon all hell will break loose death & mayhem will be visited upon them all. it is the dark ages after all!!!!!
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The Outworlds Alliance was based on pacifism, the military buildup of the Long Road programme wasn't particularly liked and the Ravens have largely kept to themselves while improving things like medical technology. The Star League starved, killed and oppressed the population of the OA to get them fighting so it's not surprising that the reaction to the Ravens, who have done none of this, has been very low key. I also think that the main problem is in having very little information about the nation, things on the surface are fairly peaceful but the President satirizes the Clan and his brother is rumoured to be involved in extremist anti-Raven groups so things might not be as nice as they seem.
MAybe-- but equally remember that the OA suffered all out slave raids before the Raven's came, complete with pedigrees for citizens who supposedly knew where star league goodies were. So If I had a choice between making nice with the big tough warriors and going back to the day when half my family could end up on the slave block, I can think a bunch of OA citizens figuring that things actually aren't so bad.
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It's actually sort of a win for the OA. They never seemed like they had much Nationalistic fervor, just were smart enough to stick together for mutual survival. If the birds allow local sovereignty, and essentially provide national defense for a tithe, most OA citizens (and planets) will likely be happy enough.
How long they stay happy, if a resurgent Combine or Suns army comes looking for revenge is an entirely different matter, however.
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Dont remember where i read it, but some of the 3085 book told something about the RC leadership making some deals with some of the stronger pirate bands, destroying the others and absorving the place into the Commonality.
Who in their right mind would actually *want* Astrokrasy?
That's like saying you want someone to leave a big, steaming pile of Bantha poodoo on your doorstep.
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So, The Periphery:
- The Raven Alliance is the only faction that is doing something outright interesting.
- Filtvelt, Taurians and Calderons are at least doing things that shows potential for future evolution.
- Fronc Reaches was one of the big six at the end of the Jihad, now they barely gets mentioned. A total sleeper.
- As for the Magistracy the only thing interesting is Ilsa's marriage, and it is old news. A big disappointment. It has reached a point where I am starting to consider dropping it from my top six factions.
- The Marians are at least building some interesting new units, so they are saved from being a total disappointment, but they have still been too stagnant for my taste.
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Part of the problem with the Magistracy is it seems any new units/equipment was folded into (most likely) the Capellan XTRO, or however they're going to do it. I'm waiting on that and the FM before I worry too much about the Periphery nations not doing anything.
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So, The Periphery:
- The Raven Alliance is the only faction that is doing something outright interesting.
Only because they aren't classed as Periphery anymore and thus got more details in 3145 than any of the Periphery states. The Raven Alliance has its own section while the Periphery is lumped in together, saying the Periphery nations aren't doing anything interesting seems to be based off of a lack of information rather than a lack of action imo. Now once we get more info i could be proven wrong but i'm still optimistic that things will be more interesting than the Era Report would suggest since it is an Inner Sphere-centric book.
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MAybe-- but equally remember that the OA suffered all out slave raids before the Raven's came, complete with pedigrees for citizens who supposedly knew where star league goodies were. So If I had a choice between making nice with the big tough warriors and going back to the day when half my family could end up on the slave block, I can think a bunch of OA citizens figuring that things actually aren't so bad.
Serious like the OWA had a choice . Hi guys lets not make nice with the friging armada on our door step. I am sorry the OWA vs a Clan know for it naval assets. Ya I figure it was just smart thinking on the OWA to make a deal to save there nation before it got conquered. It the same story they always had the OWA is miltarly a joke.
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Serious like the OWA had a choice . Hi guys lets not make nice with the friging armada on our door step. I am sorry the OWA vs a Clan know for it naval assets. Ya I figure it was just smart thinking on the OWA to make a deal to save there nation before it got conquered. It the same story they always had the OWA is miltarly a joke.
The issue isn't really that the OA didn't fight back or refuse the Ravens, it's that they seem soo accepting of it. I think that will change as we get more information but at the moment they do seem far too accepting of a group completely inimical to their beliefs.
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Maybe the Avellars are playing their own game that just takes time to unfold.
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The issue isn't really that the OA didn't fight back or refuse the Ravens, it's that they seem soo accepting of it. I think that will change as we get more information but at the moment they do seem far too accepting of a group completely inimical to their beliefs.
No but would help explain why there so accommodating. I mean really you got army of Elite (Elitie compaired to Abyssmal OWA military) Warriors. With a massive Warship Fleet . I mean really are you going unaccepting to them and risk getting them mad. OWA of all people should know what happen when you pick a fight with a Superior foe. They did it in the Reunification war against the Star League.
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The OA isn't 'abysmal' militarily. Especially not in the aerospace realm. Are they a match for the premier aerospace clan? Probably not. But to dismiss their (widely acknowledged) Elite pilots would be a mistake.
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No but would help explain why there so accommodating. I mean really you got army of Elite (Elitie compaired to Abyssmal OWA military) Warriors. With a massive Warship Fleet . I mean really are you going unaccepting to them and risk getting them mad. OWA of all people should know what happen when you pick a fight with a Superior foe. They did it in the Reunification war against the Star League.
But they stood up to the Star League, i can't think of evidence that this experience soured them to resisting conquerors and their "Abyssmal" military won the first fight and impressed the Ravens. Besides, i'm not talking about a war, i'm talking about public resistance.
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It's important to realize that one advantage the OA had, and a thing that may be changing and causing problems is that the Clan's tend to prefer enclaves. They're not missionaries. So yeah,the Clan may run a world, or be big players, but it isn't a colonial setting where they are in your face a lot.
And again, remember the biggest problem of the periphery-- getting knocked flat by pirate raids. The fact that now you have the big tough Clansmen who make the pirates decide to go somewhere else shoudn't be discounted in terms of making people happy.
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But they stood up to the Star League, i can't think of evidence that this experience soured them to resisting conquerors and their "Abyssmal" military won the first fight and impressed the Ravens. Besides, i'm not talking about a war, i'm talking about public resistance.
Lets examine that standing up. I belive the OWA cut a deal with the Kuritas and the Davions during the war robing the Star League of bases, men and resources. The Star LEague didn't push the OWA as hard because of the blood bath in TC and the fact they didn't want to get in a shooting match with Davion and Kurita forces who where messing with each other. The fact is the OWA miltary didn't inflict any major damage on the league, not surprising cause there miltary was weak to begin with.
As for the so-called vaunted Aerospace. Yes there one of the best in perpehery (And they say the IS..Though I never heard of them tangling with any major IS power since the Star League fall). Still there aerospace contingent does not make up for there poor ground forces. You still need boots on the ground to hold anything and the OWA boots are nothing to brag about.
Lets not add the Tech lvl difference. OWA got the short end of the stick when it came to lost tech. (They are not a IS major house or kissed a major house behind for the advance tech like TC or MC) There tech was at best half IS upgrade and the rest 3025 tech (And that the aerospace witch they cared about..the ground was proabbly all 3025)
As for public resistence. The OWA people are perhaps the lease argressive people in BT. Heck they have show in the past that large groups of them would rather break up the OWA then try to support it. Not the kind of people that can be rosed to resist. They just happy to be left alone to live there lives and not be bother with politics
(Not really there fault if ya think about. Most BT people are Sheep-pole. There is not nationalism or patroic feeling in the bulk of them.)
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Lets examine that standing up. I belive the OWA cut a deal with the Kuritas and the Davions during the war robing the Star League of bases, men and resources. The Star LEague didn't push the OWA as hard because of the blood bath in TC and the fact they didn't want to get in a shooting match with Davion and Kurita forces who where messing with each other. The fact is the OWA miltary didn't inflict any major damage on the league, not surprising cause there miltary was weak to begin with.
Have you read Historical: Reunification War? If not, it might be a good idea, because your statement appears to be... erroneous. The Outworlds and their "mercenary" allies in the form of the Pitcairn Legion fought for five years against two Corps of Star League forces, continually frustrating them, and managing to do things like render one Corps largely combat-ineffective and get an entire Royal Brigade to surrender en masse. The Outworlds Alliance wasn't the subject of a grinding 20-year bloodfest like the Concordat, but the Outworlds Alliance fought a long and brutal war against heavily superior odds, in the face of outright atrocities and genocide conducted by Star League officers and their Combine auxiliaries, and managed to draw the war out far longer than the League planned, while inflicting far more damage than was ever expected. The Outworlds Alliance ultimately surrendered, but it was a negotiated surrender initiated by the Federated Suns and a new Star League senior officer in the theatre to avoid the several more years of highly-destructive warfare anticipated if the war continued as it was.
The Alliance government didn't cut any deals with the Combine - there was one instance of an Alliance planetary governor deliberately defecting his world to the Combine to avoid it being attacked, in defiance of local OAM forces who were dug in and ready to fight, and the Alliance military forces still fought a brief campaign over the world. That governor was assassinated shortly after. The Alliance Mechanized Divisions fought campaigns on a number of worlds against Combine forces, and on at least three worlds forced the Combine forces to retreat offworld.
As for the so-called vaunted Aerospace. Yes there one of the best in perpehery (And they say the IS..Though I never heard of them tangling with any major IS power since the Star League fall). Still there aerospace contingent does not make up for there poor ground forces. You still need boots on the ground to hold anything and the OWA boots are nothing to brag about.
AeroSpace forces make quite good defensive forces. Just ask the Diamond Sharks - when the other Clans were gunning for them during the Wars of Reaving, the Sharks made a point of never granting safcon, with their fighter forces bleeding the Steel Vipers across numerous worlds and forcing that Clan to ultimately have to pause and rebuild.
I'm not sure how the qualified "so-called vaunted AeroSpace" statement applies to the OA. The OA are a small Periphery realm that mustered five elite regiments of AeroSpace forces and were acknowledged as being skilled enough that other nations sent personnel to the OA to go through their training regime or as part of exchange programmes. Whatever the sources of your contempt for the OA forces are, the facts in canon are that the OA AeroSpace forces beat modern Snow Raven AeroSpace assets in a trial and are well-regarded by the Snow Ravens.
Are you quibbling with the Elite rating recorded in several sourcebooks against the Alliance Air Wings? Or are you perhaps arguing that Elite doesn't really mean Elite if it's Periphery forces?
The Outworlds Wastes are full of lost worlds that were attacked by Federated Suns and Combine forces looking to obtain tech and "destroy bandits" according to ISP3: Interstellar Expeditions. Despite that, the OA government kept a coherent realm together despite two vastly stronger neighbours. To intimate that the presence of five regiments of elite-rated AeroSpace forces had nothing to do with that would seem disingenious.
As for public resistence. The OWA people are perhaps the lease argressive people in BT. Heck they have show in the past that large groups of them would rather break up the OWA then try to support it. Not the kind of people that can be rosed to resist. They just happy to be left alone to live there lives and not be bother with politics
(Not really there fault if ya think about. Most BT people are Sheep-pole. There is not nationalism or patroic feeling in the bulk of them.)
Firstly, read Historical: Reunification War. No, seriously. The defense of the Outworlds Alliance during the War was in part explicitly because the population were riled up enough to actively resist, and they did so in the face of the Star League deliberately targeting civilian cities and populations and literally decimating local populations as an effort to stamp out resistance.
It also seems odd for you to suggest that the population of the OA can't be roused to resist, while at the same time saying that several planets decided to leave the OA rather than support a policy they didn't like. Several OA worlds disagreed with the Avellar policy of alliance with the Raven Alliance so much that they actively left the nation to stand on their own, rather than as a part of a greater nation, because of their principles. That doesn't sound like apathy.
I'm curious as to which sourcebooks dealing with the OA you've read and formed your opinions from, because I'm having some trouble reconciling what you're arguing with what I'm seeing in the various sourcebooks I've read dealing with them.
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Maybe the Avellars are playing their own game that just takes time to unfold.
No, the 3145 Avellar-in-Charge is a joke and a hedonist. He'd rather get laid/drunk/stoned than do his job as President. I'm sure it's a powerless title, but it's still his job
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Who in their right mind would actually *want* Astrokrasy?
That's like saying you want someone to leave a big, steaming pile of Bantha poodoo on your doorstep.
Maybe the Rim Commonality found the Star League depot everyone has been looking for on it since forever and that's where their provincial army came from? *I am joking.
I for one like Fitvelt and look forward to them fleshing out how the periphery powers welcomed or did not welcome the new Periphery state on the block.
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Maybe the Rim Commonality would rather try and control Astrokaszy - and through funding and gentle persuasion, point the many violent tribes and groups of bandits there in worthier directions, like at a nearby neighbour with a history of aggressive expansion through conquest - than have it sitting on their border and deal with constant pirate and bandit raids. After all, if you're going to have to keep hitting the world with raiding forces to stop banditry, it's not that big a step to move on to garrisoning the world.
Or maybe one of the local figures became powerful enough to control a majority of the tribes and elected to join the Rim Commonality - or was persuaded/bribed/influenced to do so - and that's why it's showing up there.
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No, the 3145 Avellar-in-Charge is a joke and a hedonist. He'd rather get laid/drunk/stoned than do his job as President. I'm sure it's a powerless title, but it's still his job
Maybe, or maybe that is a facade, and the guys is more cunning than the Raven think...
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Everyone seems to have missed the bit about where the Ravens decided to open negotiations with the Outworlds rather than take them outright. The Ravens stumbled across a detatchment, challenged them to a Trial of Possession for their JS/DS/whatever. And the OA fighters fought them to a tie. They gained massive prestige from it, and the Ravens treated with them sort of as a equal rather than tried to subdue them.
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Everyone seems to have missed the bit about where the Ravens decided to open negotiations with the Outworlds rather than take them outright. The Ravens stumbled across a detatchment, challenged them to a Trial of Possession for their JS/DS/whatever. And the OA fighters fought them to a tie. They gained massive prestige from it, and the Ravens treated with them sort of as a equal rather than tried to subdue them.
Oh sure, they were all charm and Big Romantic Gestures in the beginning, but now that the relationship is a given they've dropped the act and are sitting in the proverbial armchair on Alpheratz watching lacrosse (Clanners love lacrosse, you know) and yelling for the Outworlders to bring them another beer and a sammich. And all the Alliance's old friends won't talk to them anymore because they got tired of getting lectured about how "you just don't know the Ravens like I do"...
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The discussion is not: Why aren't the Ravens eating babies on the OA worlds, like those Crazy Falcons. There are lots of good reasons for the Ravens to prefer things the way they are. The question is: Why would the OA be okay with having their national government perverted by, essentially, Janissaries. I posit that the OA is not really the OA. It's just a pile of planets who paid taxes to the OA to get a military, and the ocassional public service. There doesn't (seem) to be a whole lot of Nationalism in the OA. Just a bunch of people who want to be mostly left alone.
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I think there should be WAY more objection to the Ravens in the Outworlds. Sure, a lot of the 'malcontents' were killed off in the Jihad, but there is far more opposition to the Ghost Bears in the Dominion, and in many ways they are WAY gentler on the locals than the Ravens are. I understand that the Ravens are bascially saying "We can both live here at once, and simply coexist as neighbours on the same planets while being separate bodies," but this is a lie. The relationship might have STARTED that way, but by the looks of things it hasn't been like that in DECADES.
I don't know. The Raven Alliance just seems too. . . boring as hell to me. It has taken a Clan I actually liked, and a nation I found interesting into something which I simply do NOT like because it has no substance. They aren't acting like Clanners, they aren't acting like Outworlders, and they aren't acting like the batshit crazies around them. They seem to have no real identity, no real conflict, and no real threats. They are starting to make the Fronc Reaches look fascinating!
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... see, I think the Ravens are being very, very Ravenlike. They're helping the TC build mechs (See: paranoid half of the Taurians, who hate the Davions). They managed to drag the Combine and the Suns into an all out brawl, while taking worlds away from both. McKenna had the whole thing, including de-mothballing the Warship stars planned out well enough that her SaKhan could run everything just the way she planned (WITHOUT HPGS). And she managed to score with the son of her previous seduction of choice, in order to make the plan still work. (though to be fair, she's easily the most attractive woman in the ER, besides possibly the leggy blond Fox) The question to me, is not "Where have the Ravens gone?" Because they're right there. The question (to me) is: What's going to happen to their peachy keen arrangement with the OA people, now that they've been revealed as warmongers who may bring the wrath of Davion or Kurita forces down on the homestead? And once you've paid the Danegeld, can you ever get rid of the Danes?
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And all the Alliance's old friends won't talk to them anymore because they got tired of getting lectured about how "you just don't know the Ravens like I do"...
wait... the OA had friends? ;)
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The Ravens are being machiavellian, sure. They are just not being CLAN LIKE. Where are the trials? Where is the combat? Where are the Warrior Caste itching to test their mettle?
As for the OA, one of the main things holding them back was their reluctance to change. They didn't want a military on their worlds. They just wanted to be left alone. Now the Ravens are dragging them and their worlds into wars with the Combine and Suns (very recently, after decades of little change). They are also a (officially) a militaristic socieity which should be completely against the wishes of the Outworlders.
I would have been fine if they mentioned even a SINGLE rebellion, demonstration, or passive disobedience to the Ravens usurping their nation. However, I recall no such mention.
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There is something i found very interesting, and it seems no one speak about it...Operation TRIDENT, a joint operation against the Tortuga Dominions made by (at least, the TRO call it "a multiple Periphery states operation) the Filvet Coalition, the Brotherhood of Randis and the Calderon Protectorade, with its biggest battle ocurring in 3129 in New Port Royal (first time we get some info about this planet in particular). I would love to see a Operational Turning Point book about it.
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Did it turn out in the least bit that Filtvelt went independent due to the TC supplying them arms for all those years?
I've long wondered as it always seemed to me that here's this nowhere location (at the out of universe time we were told of the TC's doing such underhanded action) that the TC has been wasting their time trying to get to revolt, and then, after a hiccup where Jeffery stops such dealings, Super-Grover takes over. Then not even a full handfull of years later they go independent. Always seemed odd.
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As they have their own arms manufacturers there, and it was Pirate attacks which pushed them away, I doubt it. Hell, I'd be much more willing to say the CP was supporting them than the TC!
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In fact, between FM:3085, M&M, The Field Reports and Objective Periphery and the TRO:3145:M, is evident that their is an alliance between the Calderon Protectorade, the Filvet Coalition and the Fiefdom of Randis. Trade treaties, military and technological exchanges, etc.
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Lets examine that standing up. I belive the OWA cut a deal with the Kuritas and the Davions during the war robing the Star League of bases, men and resources.
Only House Davion. DCMS troops were even more remorseless than the SLDF troops especially after a humiliating defeat to lesser forces.
The Star LEague didn't push the OWA as hard because of the blood bath in TC and the fact they didn't want to get in a shooting match with Davion and Kurita forces who where messing with each other.
Primarily because of the heavy resistance put up by the Taurians and House Davion was messing with both the SLDF and the DCMS primarily through bureaucratic red tape but covertly as well through the Pitcairn Legion.
The fact is the OWA miltary didn't inflict any major damage on the league, not surprising cause there miltary was weak to begin with.
The OA military did inflict several humiliating defeats on both the SLDF and the DCMS not as much as the TDF but for more than should have been expected for such a young military.
As for the so-called vaunted Aerospace. Yes there one of the best in perpehery (And they say the IS..Though I never heard of them tangling with any major IS power since the Star League fall).
They tangled with the Snow Ravens and were able to overcome their superior technology. Both the Taurians and the Magistracy sent numerous pilots to the OA to train.
Still there aerospace contingent does not make up for there poor ground forces. You still need boots on the ground to hold anything and the OWA boots are nothing to brag about.
True, largely due to the psychology damage to the OA psyche suffered during the Reunification War. Their ground forces did get a minor infusion when several mercenary units signed on permanently with the OA.
Lets not add the Tech lvl difference. OWA got the short end of the stick when it came to lost tech. (They are not a IS major house or kissed a major house behind for the advance tech like TC or MC) There tech was at best half IS upgrade and the rest 3025 tech (And that the aerospace witch they cared about..the ground was proabbly all 3025)
The Long Road Program called for increased funding, better equipment and training and an expansion of the AGDA. Although not as advanced as other realms, the OA made their own marks in weapons technology. Lushann Industries manufactured high quality advanced laser weapons are a highly desired commodity throughout the Inner Sphere and have appeared in several IS manufactured Mechs including the OTL-6D Ostsol, the SGT-8R Sagittaire and the BL-12-KNT Black Knight. In 3063, after successfully reopening their Vendrell plant, Mountain Wolf BattleMechs reopened their plant on Alperatz and started manufacturing their signature BattleMech, the Night Hawk, there as well. The United Outworlds Corporation has sold large numbers of aerospace fighters to the DCMS to make up for losses sustained in the Clan Invasion.
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Agreed that the RA seems a lot less interesting than the Long Road era OA... but I'd hargue it is more interesting than the OA was in Periphery 1st.
What I wonder is, what happened to the OA's pilots? I doubt the five regiments of fighters wanted to all become bondsmen or junior clanners in the Raven military... and likewise I can't see them too happy being relegated to a space-militia force either. I wonder if some wings went rogue either turning into mercs or merc forces dedicated to some of the independent worlds that broke away from the Alliance. I can certainly see them/their descendants hiring out as protectionist forces for caravans from there to Filtvelt/TC/Etc regions.
Between that, the Broken Wheel region's operation on Tortuga, the Ravens hunting pirates themselves... I could imagine that quadrant of the periphery becoming the most pirate-free of all (particularly with piracy returning on some scale to the former pirate kingdoms/invasion corridor area) Maybe that is why the OA worlds are largely silent... they are reaping the best peace assets they've ever had?
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What I wonder is, what happened to the OA's pilots? I doubt the five regiments of fighters wanted to all become bondsmen or junior clanners in the Raven military... and likewise I can't see them too happy being relegated to a space-militia force either. I wonder if some wings went rogue either turning into mercs or merc forces dedicated to some of the independent worlds that broke away from the Alliance. I can certainly see them/their descendants hiring out as protectionist forces for caravans from there to Filtvelt/TC/Etc regions.
The write-up for the NL-45 Gunboat implies that the OA military still exists as a separate entity (in that its rank structure is still being used).
And given that he Outworld military was a defensive army anyway, why would they object to becoming a militia? It's essentially what they were anyway.
That's my two cents.
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Does anyone else see any problems in having two completely separate military forces, technically independent of one another, operating on the same worlds? It worked (mostly) for the Exiles and Lyrans, but not so much the Combine and Nova Cats. Then again, it was a much weaker clan in a very large house. . .
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I do indeed. Hopefully it gets cleared up in the Field Manual.
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I can see problems with it, but it's not without precedent. That was arguably the relationship between the Continental Army and the local militias during the American Revolution, and it could be argued that this sort of situation attained in WWII Germany with the army and the SS divisions. Its efficacy probably depends on how well organized they are in terms of area of responsibility. I don't see the AGDA throwing around its weight to supersede local Raven military authority.
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OWA of all people should know what happen when you pick a fight with a Superior foe. They did it in the Reunification war against the Star League.
Terran nonsense. Need anyone in the proud periphery need reminding that it was the so-called "Star League" pursuing their bloodthirsty war of conquest across all of known space? No, the Periphery resisted this unification (there's nothing "re" about it) despite IS atrocities, to the best of their ability and then some.
As for the so-called vaunted Aerospace. Yes there one of the best in perpehery (And they say the IS..Though I never heard of them tangling with any major IS power since the Star League fall). Still there aerospace contingent does not make up for there poor ground forces. You still need boots on the ground to hold anything and the OWA boots are nothing to brag about.
...
They just happy to be left alone to live there lives and not be bother with politics
(Not really there fault if ya think about. Most BT people are Sheep-pole. There is not nationalism or patroic feeling in the bulk of them.)
And as ever, more lies from Terra. How is wanting to be left alone a Sheeple thing to do? If anything, it's the hearts of those Hegemony fanatics and their House lapdogs that beat to the drum of marching jackboots.
That said, I'm in general agreement with Cavalier that I don't think it's that weird for the OA to put up with the Ravens. UNLIKE the first wave of dirty stinking Earther thugs and their hangers-on, the Ravens a) didn't start out with atrocities and genocide and b) mostly do their own thing. The Outworlders are largely a peaceable people who do their own thing, and it's nobody's business what the next township across the horizon does in it's spare time. So I doubt the average Outworlder is going to care much what the Ravens are doing over in their own enclaves.
And as has been pointed out, what the Ravens have been doing in their enclaves is most likely to have benefitted the average Outworlder. Less piracy, after all. And the Outworld Militia seems to more or less remain intact.
Now, if the Ravens' shady dealings and fighting means lackeys from the Inner Sphere start trying to pick a fight with the Alliance again, I can see that causing a rift between the Outworlders and the Ravens - although maybe by then they'd rather have the Ravens around as largely silent partners than live kneeling before Luthien or New Avalon (or worst case scenario, grovelling on their bellies before the throne of Terra again). Though hey, I'm actually far more sympathetic to Devlin Stone and Jonah Levin than I am to any of the lunatics that spread their corruption from Terra before. Of course, if the walls come down and Levin or his successors ape the antics of the Cameron and Amaris goons, then I'm back to hoping that it gets a good dose of Taurian vengeance five centuries in the making.
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Sure you're not a TC fan? :D
Meant as a compliment as it were... >:D
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Sure you're not a TC fan? :D
Meant as a compliment as it were... >:D
And appreciated as such. I was just looking for the banner. :P It's just too bad that the Suns lie in between the Concordat and Terra >:( - or any of the houses for that matter. Cameron's War of Terran Aggression may have gone differently had Hegemony worlds been the ones burning in the void.
Remember Santiago, friends of the Periphery!
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And appreciated as such. I was just looking for the banner. :P It's just too bad that the Suns lie in between the Concordat and Terra >:( - or any of the houses for that matter. Cameron's War of Terran Aggression may have gone differently had Hegemony worlds been the ones burning in the void.
Remember Santiago, friends of the Periphery!
Remember Robsart!
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In regards to the Raven Alliance military being both Raven and Alliance it probably has something to do with a second amendment type clause in their charter. AKA, you can't take away our right to defend ourselves! I think the difference is like having regular troops versus militia. While they train together and do join missions, the Alliance forces, unless they are ever upgraded across the board to Clan standards, they will never be an invasion force. The Raven side is also too small to make big waves. Not sure if staying in the nest for sixty years will change that much with the production numbers what we've seen. I mean, we've introduced some prosperity to the realm, but where is our focus? On invading others? Exploration to this big unknown area out here?
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And appreciated as such. I was just looking for the banner. :P It's just too bad that the Suns lie in between the Concordat and Terra >:( - or any of the houses for that matter. Cameron's War of Terran Aggression may have gone differently had Hegemony worlds been the ones burning in the void.
Remember Santiago, friends of the Periphery!
Or We would done stuff that would make Furlong's campaign look like a Birthday party. Remeber it was only because of the the colonials banding together (Crucis pact, etc etc) and Konrad's blunder, that stop Terra from uniting humanity the first time under Admiral Mckenna.
Remember the Camerons, Remember the First Star league. Humanity's golden age.
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Humanity's Age of Slavery.
I'll pass. :)
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Can we actually have a discussion on the Periphery without it turning into a slanging match and the mods locking it? Because this one has taken a sharp turn for the worse allready.
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To be more ah, detched, the reunification war is a lesson to both sides. 1. Anyone thinking of trying to invade the periphery in a big way knows that it won't be fun. Remember that the Reunification war, like the Clan war was mainly an ideological conflict-- the Star League gained nothing materially that they couldn't have gotten through traditional trade and lost a great deal-- I'd bet that when you deducted all the cost of garrisons, both revolts, the need to put togetehr secret bases, even ignoring the devestation the occupation economic dependency policies eventually created, that they likely barely broke even.
2. The Periphery understands that an all out war is going to be terrible for them-- they'd be fighting against enemies that had the high ground, and could launch attacks without endangering their own dependents.
Combine 1, and 2, and anyone with a brain is likely not interested in "Reunification War II Electric Bugaloo".
And to be honest, you don't need it-- right now the periphery needs (especially the OA) the kind of force that can give them a breather from pirate raids. The Ravens need a home-- and even better, the Ravens have a small enough population, and the OA is spread out enough that a common problem, friction between populations, realy isn't a big deal.
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And appreciated as such. I was just looking for the banner. :P It's just too bad that the Suns lie in between the Concordat and Terra >:( - or any of the houses for that matter. Cameron's War of Terran Aggression may have gone differently had Hegemony worlds been the ones burning in the void.
Remember Santiago, friends of the Periphery!
Only Plot made it not so. Space is big and there are plenty of uninhabited systems to charge in. I mean not even I can count the number of times I wondered how Faction A did X without Faction B hitting their most important worlds with relativistic drone dropships. When it comes down to it during the 'Reunification War' the Taurians could have gone FU and smashed the Hegemony so hard it descended into a near failed-state and prevented the war from continuing.
In fact that would make an interesting AU. The Terran Hegemony territory is something akin to the Chaos March liberally speckled with systems utterly devastated by relativistic dropships loaded with sand. The Houses are all at war with each other in a replay of the Succession Wars, only without HPGs or ComStar they balkanize into smaller states like the FWL did in the canon timeline. The periphery is free and has maintained most of their infrastructure but will be decades rebuilding it. The Sol system itself is a barren lifeless place inhabited only by the Belters, who are self-sufficient and trade with nobody.
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Only Plot made it not so. Space is big and there are plenty of uninhabited systems to charge in. I mean not even I can count the number of times I wondered how Faction A did X without Faction B hitting their most important worlds with relativistic drone dropships. When it comes down to it during the 'Reunification War' the Taurians could have gone FU and smashed the Hegemony so hard it descended into a near failed-state and prevented the war from continuing.
In fact that would make an interesting AU. The Terran Hegemony territory is something akin to the Chaos March liberally speckled with systems utterly devastated by relativistic dropships loaded with sand. The Houses are all at war with each other in a replay of the Succession Wars, only without HPGs or ComStar they balkanize into smaller states like the FWL did in the canon timeline. The periphery is free and has maintained most of their infrastructure but will be decades rebuilding it. The Sol system itself is a barren lifeless place inhabited only by the Belters, who are self-sufficient and trade with nobody.
Given the disparage of number of warships between the TH and TC. I find that scenario unlikely. The TH was the most powerful State in the IS back in the day. IT could have destroyed any single House or state by itself. It was the simple fact there was to many other enemies surrounding them (The Great Houses) that made them do the whole star league thing.
Also you don't want to do a such an attack on the TH, the response would utterly destroy the TC. Remember the SL and the TH where hamper by their propaganda of reunification of all humanity under one banner. IF you did esintlialy a terror attack on the TH, you would have handed the Cameron a wonderful propaganda weapon, Then they could go nuts on the TC with out worrying about political or social backlash.
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Also you don't want to do a such an attack on the TH, the response would utterly destroy the TC. Remember the SL and the TH where hamper by their propaganda of reunification of all humanity under one banner. IF you did esintlialy a terror attack on the TH, you would have handed the Cameron a wonderful propaganda weapon, Then they could go nuts on the TC with out worrying about political or social backlash.
No it wouldn't, there wouldn't be any leadership left to carry anything out. I'm not just talking smack I've done the math. A single Jumbo (though preferably you'd use the larger Aqueduct if you had them) loaded with fuel and sand thrusting from the far reaches of the system can render a planet uninhabitable and destroy its entire population. The sand it carries released on approach can scour entire planetary orbitals of infrastructure. And there's no clue left behind to figure out who made the attack.
This isn't just another "terrorist attack" the TC had enough dropships and jumpships it could have simultaneously struck all the known centers of government and major military commands. Depopulating the most important planets and taking out their orbital shipyards at the same time. Chains of command collapse swiftly under those sort of circumstances. There will be mass panic, disorder, and disintegration of government control. Do you really believe none of the Houses will take advantage of that? When we canonically know that they ate the Hegemony wholesale as soon as it was weakened. And such an attack would leave it in a state at least as bad as that following the Amaris situation.
Such events don't happen in the canon timeline because they are harmful to the setting as a game and shift it away from its focus. But in-universe they're both very possible and very much a sword of Damocles that changes the entire setting.
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So, um, how 'bout that 3145 periphery? Kinda neat right?
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3145 is awesome. Talking about 3145 is even better. Especially when you're in a 3145 thread! [rockon]
(Take the hint. [copper])
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So what do you think has happened in the ISP3 worlds by 3145?
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No, the 3145 Avellar-in-Charge is a joke and a hedonist. He'd rather get laid/drunk/stoned than do his job as President. I'm sure it's a powerless title, but it's still his job
As Baldur Mekorig mentioned, it could all be an act to keep the Ravens thinking the OA is well within their claws.
I think it might instead be that it IS his job to be Zaphod Beeblebrox. For all the same reasons.
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I think it might instead be that it IS his job to be Zaphod Beeblebrox. For all the same reasons.
It's not too far-fetched considering the nature of the OA and the overall trend of its culture. Most of those planets don't seem to really want much to do with the rest of humanity. So given that the OA central authorities start out less powerful it doesn't seem unreasonable for them to be hollowed out over time. Until they're basically a talking shop and a few figureheads for everybody else to make a fuss over while the planetary authorities take over most duties. Conversely the central authority doesn't seem like it's less powerful overall than it was, so it may just be the office of president that's been turned into a figurehead.
An early Weber honorverse book used a fairly good example of it. Where the official leader of Grayson still had a great deal of power on paper, but other political forces had slowly taken things over until by tradition the official leader was highly restricted in what they could actually do. Mind you it also illustrated that apparently ceremonial power may not be as ceremonial as it seems if you can bring the military to your side. But at least he made token notice of the social backlash and civil unrest caused by seizing back powers that had in practice been devolved to other bodies.
Be interesting to see whether something similar happens in the OA or the President goes away and other political positions take over in a fully official way.
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I think the big lesson is that the Periphery's nations can no longer afford to stand on their own, and that alliances are the key to the future.
The Magistracy have been the big winners of the Periphery since the early 3060s. Their technology levels and economy and so on have advanced by leaps and bounds to the point where they're at the equivalent level to one of the Successor States. That's something which is pretty much unprecedented in the history of the Periphery. They recovered from the Jihad faster then any other periphery state, and by the 3140s are probably the most powerful of the Periphery states.
How was this achieved? Through an alliance with the Cappelan Confederation. As the two states grew closer and closer together, it's been the Magistracy that has benefited the most from the deal.
The same goes for the Outworlds Alliance. The nation had spent the centuries of the Succession Wars slowly withering and dying. It's government was largely ineffective to non-existent, essentially letting three-quarters of the nation wander off and having very little control over the rest. Infrastrucutre was crumbling or non-existant, literacy rates were abysmal and pirates were slowly chewing the nation's carcass. The people of the OA had a weak to non-eixstant national spirit, the government being largely ignored at the best of times.
The Ravens came in, engaged in massive infrastructure construction and development of the nation while also giving the OA a military that was capable of staving off the pirates that were a persistent threat to the nation.
As RunandFindOut pointed out, the OA's leadership has always been a non-issue. All the Ravens did was legitimise the point by removing power from the office.
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I do not know . . . I think we also have the opportunity for a periphery realm to weaken a House in an effort to reach parity. The Taurians and Marians have the chance to weaken the Houses next door who were typically enemies and rivals.
For the Taurians, right now the FedSuns is being hit by their two ancient enemies and find themselves in shambles. Just as in the S States threads recommending the CapCon consolidate by making peace, the Taurians can sort of run the same scheme. Hit four or five worlds, threaten to hit more . . . then offer a peace treaty. Limited gains to create a buffer, gain industry, and experience for the forces are all the upside . . . but you have to be prepared for the FedSuns not to give in. Other question comes down to bit off more of the Capellan March or hit the Periphery March. The latter has not been touched, but their quality of forces might not be as good as what the Cap March had fielded before getting kicked in.
For the Marians . . . the neoFWL is still consolidating, has Regulus as an enemy at the core and the Wolves on the border. Snap up some periphery non-aligned worlds. The biggest prize IMO would be Kendall with its factory and advanced production. Again, LIMITED gains forced on the House which is occupied with other things which offers the House a chance to turn their attention to more immediate matters. If nothing else the neoFWL MUST keep a strong border with the Crusader Wolf Empire which limits their ability to respond. When Regulus and the neoFWL go to war, it is definately the time to kick this sort of strategy off- taking a factory just wounds them more. IMO, they need to approach the Regulans and even go so far to slow their own forces build up to give the Regulans the chance to increase their quantity.
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The same goes for the Outworlds Alliance. The nation had spent the centuries of the Succession Wars slowly withering and dying. It's government was largely ineffective to non-existent, essentially letting three-quarters of the nation wander off and having very little control over the rest. Infrastrucutre was crumbling or non-existant, literacy rates were abysmal and pirates were slowly chewing the nation's carcass. The people of the OA had a weak to non-eixstant national spirit, the government being largely ignored at the best of times.
The Ravens came in, engaged in massive infrastructure construction and development of the nation while also giving the OA a military that was capable of staving off the pirates that were a persistent threat to the nation.
Why have you ignored most recent history of the Outworlds Alliance? Neil Avellar improved literacy to levels not seen since the Star League era, Mitchel Avellar developed trade ties with Successor States and other Periphery realms which improved the economy and life of Outworlders. He also improved the military of the realm, a military which defeated and impressed the Ravens.
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Why have you ignored most recent history of the Outworlds Alliance? Neil Avellar improved literacy to levels not seen since the Star League era, Mitchel Avellar developed trade ties with Successor States and other Periphery realms which improved the economy and life of Outworlders. He also improved the military of the realm, a military which defeated and impressed the Ravens.
I'm not ignoring it by any means. I'm just saying that in spite of all that, the OA was still a relatively weak nation with an oft barely-functional government and frail economy. The Ravens presented the OA with opportunities that it would not have had otherwise, and they took them. Since then, the Ravens have done more for the OA since the Jihad then the Avellars did on their own.
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I'm not ignoring it by any means. I'm just saying that in spite of all that, the OA was still a relatively weak nation with an oft barely-functional government and frail economy. The Ravens presented the OA with opportunities that it would not have had otherwise, and they took them. Since then, the Ravens have done more for the OA since the Jihad then the Avellars did on their own.
You said "Infrastrucutre was crumbling or non-existant, literacy rates were abysmal and pirates were slowly chewing the nation's carcass", that's a bit different from saying it is a "relatively weak nation". Also, where are you getting that the Ravens have done more for the nation than the Avellars? FM3085 says they revitalised industry and technology but we don't know much other than that about the Raven Alliance.
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It will be interesting to see just how heavily deployed the HAF are in Capellan space as of Field Manual: 3145; if they have over-extended themselves in taking up this garrison duty, they might risk exposing parts of the Magistracy itself to foreign adventurism.
And speaking of which, now that the Marians are (or, at least, seem to be) starting to get over the whole Lothian thing, perhaps they could try to take advantage of such an exposure by making a play for worlds on or near to the Canopians' antispinward marches?
Thraxa and Vixen are now independent planets, some of the nearby worlds from ISP3 (such as Kleinwelt and Frobisher) might still be in the area, even if they don't show up on the ER:3145 maps, and Booker, the birth world of Johann Sebastian O'Reilly himself, isn't too far away either. (I wonder if the Marians would see the conquest of that world as their "Booker Prize (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_Booker_Prize)"...)
While theres no particular reason to let the Marians actually win a potential new war with the Canopians, it would be a way to help give the Magistracy something to worry about in its own right, rather than sitting behind the buffers provided in other directions by the Capellans and Anduriens.
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Someone's got a thing against the Magistracy... wishing them ill and all. :) The advantage of a new setting is that we can jump past the breather years and get back to conflict. Only widescale conflict can allow nations like those in the Periphery to really have a chance at taking on bigger neighbors.
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Someone's got a thing against the Magistracy... wishing them ill and all. :)
Far from it; in fact, the Canopians (or rather, the writeup for them in Handbook: Major Periphery States) helped me get properly into BattleTech as a setting.
I was just trying to think of ways to shake things up in their near neighbourhood. The Magistracy has been sitting somewhat prettily as of late, and the Marians have done little other than waste their time trying to get back at the Lothians during the Republic Era. Perhaps a re-sparking of the old rivalry between the MAF and MHAF could be a way to make things more interesting for both sides involved.
(Indeed, I could imagine the Canopians not being in too much of a hurry to call for help, should they be faced with a renewed Marian threat. They still want to show that they can take care of matters in their own house, without having to rely on the Capellans to do all of the fighting for them. In which case, one could imagine the Magistracy treating a tussle with the Hegemony as a more "private little war", at least so long as they aren't in too much peril by going it alone.)