Author Topic: 3145 Periphery  (Read 19799 times)

cavalier1645

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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #30 on: 11 April 2013, 22:00:17 »
MAybe-- but equally remember that the OA suffered all out slave raids before the Raven's came, complete with pedigrees for citizens who supposedly knew where star league goodies were.  So If I had a choice between making nice with the big tough warriors and going back to the day when half my family could end up on the slave block, I can think a bunch of OA citizens figuring that things actually aren't so bad.

Serious like the OWA had a choice . Hi guys lets not make nice with the friging armada on our door step. I am sorry the OWA vs a Clan know for it naval assets. Ya I figure it was just smart thinking on the OWA to make a deal to save there nation before it got conquered. It the same story they always had the OWA is miltarly a joke.

tapdancingbeavers

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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #31 on: 11 April 2013, 22:12:59 »
Serious like the OWA had a choice . Hi guys lets not make nice with the friging armada on our door step. I am sorry the OWA vs a Clan know for it naval assets. Ya I figure it was just smart thinking on the OWA to make a deal to save there nation before it got conquered. It the same story they always had the OWA is miltarly a joke.

The issue isn't really that the OA didn't fight back or refuse the Ravens, it's that they seem soo accepting of it.  I think that will change as we get more information but at the moment they do seem far too accepting of a group completely inimical to their beliefs.

rebs

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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #32 on: 11 April 2013, 22:30:04 »
Maybe the Avellars are playing their own game that just takes time to unfold.
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cavalier1645

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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #33 on: 11 April 2013, 22:32:31 »
The issue isn't really that the OA didn't fight back or refuse the Ravens, it's that they seem soo accepting of it.  I think that will change as we get more information but at the moment they do seem far too accepting of a group completely inimical to their beliefs.

No but would help explain why there so accommodating. I mean really you got army of Elite (Elitie compaired to Abyssmal OWA military) Warriors. With a massive Warship Fleet . I mean really are you going unaccepting to them and risk getting them mad. OWA of all people should know what happen when you pick a fight with a Superior foe. They did it in the Reunification war against the Star League.

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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #34 on: 11 April 2013, 22:42:19 »
The OA isn't 'abysmal' militarily.  Especially not in the aerospace realm.  Are they a match for the premier aerospace clan?  Probably not.  But to dismiss their (widely acknowledged) Elite pilots would be a mistake.

tapdancingbeavers

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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #35 on: 11 April 2013, 23:48:59 »
Quote
No but would help explain why there so accommodating. I mean really you got army of Elite (Elitie compaired to Abyssmal OWA military) Warriors. With a massive Warship Fleet . I mean really are you going unaccepting to them and risk getting them mad. OWA of all people should know what happen when you pick a fight with a Superior foe. They did it in the Reunification war against the Star League.

But they stood up to the Star League, i can't think of evidence that this experience soured them to resisting conquerors and their "Abyssmal" military won the first fight and impressed the Ravens.  Besides, i'm not talking about a war, i'm talking about public resistance.

Korzon77

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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #36 on: 12 April 2013, 02:44:39 »
It's important to realize that one advantage the OA had, and a thing that may be changing and causing problems is that the Clan's tend to prefer enclaves. They're not missionaries. So yeah,the Clan may run a world, or be big players, but it isn't a colonial setting where they are in your face a lot.

And again, remember the biggest problem of the periphery-- getting knocked flat by pirate raids.  The fact that now you have the big tough Clansmen who make the pirates decide to go somewhere else shoudn't be discounted in terms of making people happy.

cavalier1645

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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #37 on: 12 April 2013, 04:33:00 »
But they stood up to the Star League, i can't think of evidence that this experience soured them to resisting conquerors and their "Abyssmal" military won the first fight and impressed the Ravens.  Besides, i'm not talking about a war, i'm talking about public resistance.

Lets examine that standing up. I belive the OWA cut a deal with the Kuritas and the Davions during the war robing the Star League of bases, men and resources. The Star LEague didn't push the OWA as hard because of the blood bath in TC and the fact they didn't want to get in a shooting match with Davion and Kurita forces who where messing with each other.  The fact is the OWA miltary didn't inflict any major damage on the league, not surprising cause there miltary was weak to begin with.

As for the so-called vaunted Aerospace. Yes there one of the best in perpehery (And they say the IS..Though I never heard of them tangling with any major IS power since the Star League fall). Still there aerospace contingent does not make up for there poor ground forces. You still need boots on the ground to hold anything and the OWA boots are nothing to brag about.

Lets not add the Tech lvl difference. OWA got the short end of the stick when it came to lost tech. (They are not a IS major house or kissed a major house behind for the advance tech like TC or MC) There tech was at best half IS upgrade and the rest 3025 tech (And that the aerospace witch they cared about..the ground was proabbly all 3025)

As for public resistence. The OWA people are perhaps the lease argressive people in BT. Heck they have show in the past that large groups of them would rather break up the OWA then try to support it. Not the kind of people that can be rosed to resist. They just happy to be left alone to live there lives and not be bother with politics
(Not really there fault if ya think about. Most BT people are Sheep-pole. There is not nationalism or patroic feeling in the bulk of them.)




BrokenMnemonic

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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #38 on: 12 April 2013, 05:03:50 »
Lets examine that standing up. I belive the OWA cut a deal with the Kuritas and the Davions during the war robing the Star League of bases, men and resources. The Star LEague didn't push the OWA as hard because of the blood bath in TC and the fact they didn't want to get in a shooting match with Davion and Kurita forces who where messing with each other.  The fact is the OWA miltary didn't inflict any major damage on the league, not surprising cause there miltary was weak to begin with.
Have you read Historical: Reunification War? If not, it might be a good idea, because your statement appears to be... erroneous. The Outworlds and their "mercenary" allies in the form of the Pitcairn Legion fought for five years against two Corps of Star League forces, continually frustrating them, and managing to do things like render one Corps largely combat-ineffective and get an entire Royal Brigade to surrender en masse. The Outworlds Alliance wasn't the subject of a grinding 20-year bloodfest like the Concordat, but the Outworlds Alliance fought a long and brutal war against heavily superior odds, in the face of outright atrocities and genocide conducted by Star League officers and their Combine auxiliaries, and managed to draw the war out far longer than the League planned, while inflicting far more damage than was ever expected. The Outworlds Alliance ultimately surrendered, but it was a negotiated surrender initiated by the Federated Suns and a new Star League senior officer in the theatre to avoid the several more years of highly-destructive warfare anticipated if the war continued as it was.

The Alliance government didn't cut any deals with the Combine - there was one instance of an Alliance planetary governor deliberately defecting his world to the Combine to avoid it being attacked, in defiance of local OAM forces who were dug in and ready to fight, and the Alliance military forces still fought a brief campaign over the world. That governor was assassinated shortly after. The Alliance Mechanized Divisions fought campaigns on a number of worlds against Combine forces, and on at least three worlds forced the Combine forces to retreat offworld.

As for the so-called vaunted Aerospace. Yes there one of the best in perpehery (And they say the IS..Though I never heard of them tangling with any major IS power since the Star League fall). Still there aerospace contingent does not make up for there poor ground forces. You still need boots on the ground to hold anything and the OWA boots are nothing to brag about.
AeroSpace forces make quite good defensive forces. Just ask the Diamond Sharks - when the other Clans were gunning for them during the Wars of Reaving, the Sharks made a point of never granting safcon, with their fighter forces bleeding the Steel Vipers across numerous worlds and forcing that Clan to ultimately have to pause and rebuild.

I'm not sure how the qualified "so-called vaunted AeroSpace" statement applies to the OA. The OA are a small Periphery realm that mustered five elite regiments of AeroSpace forces and were acknowledged as being skilled enough that other nations sent personnel to the OA to go through their training regime or as part of exchange programmes. Whatever the sources of your contempt for the OA forces are, the facts in canon are that the OA AeroSpace forces beat modern Snow Raven AeroSpace assets in a trial and are well-regarded by the Snow Ravens.

Are you quibbling with the Elite rating recorded in several sourcebooks against the Alliance Air Wings? Or are you perhaps arguing that Elite doesn't really mean Elite if it's Periphery forces?

The Outworlds Wastes are full of lost worlds that were attacked by Federated Suns and Combine forces looking to obtain tech and "destroy bandits" according to ISP3: Interstellar Expeditions. Despite that, the OA government kept a coherent realm together despite two vastly stronger neighbours. To intimate that the presence of five regiments of elite-rated AeroSpace forces had nothing to do with that would seem disingenious.

As for public resistence. The OWA people are perhaps the lease argressive people in BT. Heck they have show in the past that large groups of them would rather break up the OWA then try to support it. Not the kind of people that can be rosed to resist. They just happy to be left alone to live there lives and not be bother with politics
(Not really there fault if ya think about. Most BT people are Sheep-pole. There is not nationalism or patroic feeling in the bulk of them.)
Firstly, read Historical: Reunification War. No, seriously. The defense of the Outworlds Alliance during the War was in part explicitly because the population were riled up enough to actively resist, and they did so in the face of the Star League deliberately targeting civilian cities and populations and literally decimating local populations as an effort to stamp out resistance.

It also seems odd for you to suggest that the population of the OA can't be roused to resist, while at the same time saying that several planets decided to leave the OA rather than support a policy they didn't like. Several OA worlds disagreed with the Avellar policy of alliance with the Raven Alliance so much that they actively left the nation to stand on their own, rather than as a part of a greater nation, because of their principles. That doesn't sound like apathy.

I'm curious as to which sourcebooks dealing with the OA you've read and formed your opinions from, because I'm having some trouble reconciling what you're arguing with what I'm seeing in the various sourcebooks I've read dealing with them.
« Last Edit: 12 April 2013, 05:37:20 by BrokenMnemonic »

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Sharpnel

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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #39 on: 12 April 2013, 06:11:20 »
Maybe the Avellars are playing their own game that just takes time to unfold.
No, the 3145 Avellar-in-Charge is a joke and a hedonist. He'd rather get laid/drunk/stoned than do his job as President. I'm sure it's a powerless title, but it's still his job
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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #40 on: 12 April 2013, 06:54:55 »
Who in their right mind would actually *want* Astrokrasy?

That's like saying you want someone to leave a big, steaming pile of Bantha poodoo on your doorstep.

Maybe the Rim Commonality found the Star League depot everyone has been looking for on it since forever and that's where their provincial army came from? *I am joking.

I for one like Fitvelt and look forward to them fleshing out how the periphery powers welcomed or did not welcome  the new Periphery state on the block.
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BrokenMnemonic

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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #41 on: 12 April 2013, 07:42:13 »
Maybe the Rim Commonality would rather try and control Astrokaszy - and through funding and gentle persuasion, point the many violent tribes and groups of bandits there in worthier directions, like at a nearby neighbour with a history of aggressive expansion through conquest - than have it sitting on their border and deal with constant pirate and bandit raids. After all, if you're going to have to keep hitting the world with raiding forces to stop banditry, it's not that big a step to move on to garrisoning the world.

Or maybe one of the local figures became powerful enough to control a majority of the tribes and elected to join the Rim Commonality - or was persuaded/bribed/influenced to do so - and that's why it's showing up there.

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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #42 on: 12 April 2013, 11:56:43 »
No, the 3145 Avellar-in-Charge is a joke and a hedonist. He'd rather get laid/drunk/stoned than do his job as President. I'm sure it's a powerless title, but it's still his job

 Maybe, or maybe that is a facade, and the guys is more cunning than the Raven think...
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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #43 on: 12 April 2013, 13:50:08 »
Everyone seems to have missed the bit about where the Ravens decided to open negotiations with the Outworlds rather than take them outright.  The Ravens stumbled across a detatchment, challenged them to a Trial of Possession for their JS/DS/whatever.  And the OA fighters fought them to a tie.  They gained massive prestige from it, and the Ravens treated with them sort of as a equal rather than tried to subdue them.
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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #44 on: 12 April 2013, 14:01:29 »
Everyone seems to have missed the bit about where the Ravens decided to open negotiations with the Outworlds rather than take them outright.  The Ravens stumbled across a detatchment, challenged them to a Trial of Possession for their JS/DS/whatever.  And the OA fighters fought them to a tie.  They gained massive prestige from it, and the Ravens treated with them sort of as a equal rather than tried to subdue them.

Oh sure, they were all charm and Big Romantic Gestures in the beginning, but now that the relationship is a given they've dropped the act and are sitting in the proverbial armchair on Alpheratz watching lacrosse (Clanners love lacrosse, you know) and yelling for the Outworlders to bring them another beer and a sammich. And all the Alliance's old friends won't talk to them anymore because they got tired of getting lectured about how "you just don't know the Ravens like I do"...


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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #45 on: 12 April 2013, 14:03:32 »
The discussion is not: Why aren't the Ravens eating babies on the OA worlds, like those Crazy Falcons.  There are lots of good reasons for the Ravens to prefer things the way they are.  The question is: Why would the OA be okay with having their national government perverted by, essentially, Janissaries.  I posit that the OA is not really the OA.  It's just a pile of planets who paid taxes to the OA to get a military, and the ocassional public service.  There doesn't (seem) to be a whole lot of Nationalism in the OA.  Just a bunch of people who want to be mostly left alone.

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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #46 on: 12 April 2013, 15:05:19 »
I think there should be WAY more objection to the Ravens in the Outworlds.  Sure, a lot of the 'malcontents' were killed off in the Jihad, but there is far more opposition to the Ghost Bears in the Dominion, and in many ways they are WAY gentler on the locals than the Ravens are.   I understand that the Ravens are bascially saying "We can both live here at once, and simply coexist as neighbours on the same planets while being separate bodies," but this is a lie.  The relationship might have STARTED that way, but by the looks of things it hasn't been like that in DECADES.

I don't know.  The Raven Alliance just seems too. . . boring as hell to me.  It has taken a Clan I actually liked, and a nation I found interesting into something which I simply do NOT like because it has no substance.  They aren't acting like Clanners, they aren't acting like Outworlders, and they aren't acting like the batshit crazies around them.  They seem to have no real identity, no real conflict, and no real threats.  They are starting to make the Fronc Reaches look fascinating!
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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #47 on: 12 April 2013, 15:12:12 »
... see, I think the Ravens are being very, very Ravenlike.  They're helping the TC build mechs (See: paranoid half of the Taurians, who hate the Davions).  They managed to drag the Combine and the Suns into an all out brawl, while taking worlds away from both.  McKenna had the whole thing, including de-mothballing the Warship stars planned out well enough that her SaKhan could run everything just the way she planned (WITHOUT HPGS).  And she managed to score with the son of her previous seduction of choice, in order to make the plan still work.  (though to be fair, she's easily the most attractive woman in the ER, besides possibly the leggy blond Fox)  The question to me, is not "Where have the Ravens gone?" Because they're right there. The question (to me) is: What's going to happen to their peachy keen arrangement with the OA people, now that they've been revealed as warmongers who may bring the wrath of Davion or Kurita forces down on the homestead?  And once you've paid the Danegeld, can you ever get rid of the Danes?

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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #48 on: 12 April 2013, 15:33:45 »
And all the Alliance's old friends won't talk to them anymore because they got tired of getting lectured about how "you just don't know the Ravens like I do"...

wait...   the OA had friends?   ;) 
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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #49 on: 12 April 2013, 16:42:22 »
The Ravens are being machiavellian, sure.  They are just not being CLAN LIKE.  Where are the trials?  Where is the combat?  Where are the Warrior Caste itching to test their mettle?

As for the OA, one of the main things holding them back was their reluctance to change.  They didn't want a military on their worlds.  They just wanted to be left alone.  Now the Ravens are dragging them and their worlds into wars with the Combine and Suns (very recently, after decades of little change).  They are also a (officially) a militaristic socieity which should be completely against the wishes of the Outworlders.

I would have been fine if they mentioned even a SINGLE rebellion, demonstration, or passive disobedience to the Ravens usurping their nation.  However, I recall no such mention.
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Baldur Mekorig

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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #50 on: 12 April 2013, 17:11:34 »
There is something i found very interesting, and it seems no one speak about it...Operation TRIDENT, a joint operation against the Tortuga Dominions made by (at least, the TRO call it "a multiple Periphery states operation) the Filvet Coalition, the Brotherhood of Randis and the Calderon Protectorade, with its biggest battle ocurring in 3129 in New Port Royal (first time we get some info about this planet in particular). I would love to see a Operational Turning Point book about it.
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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #51 on: 12 April 2013, 17:36:55 »
Did it turn out in the least bit that Filtvelt went independent due to the TC supplying them arms for all those years?

I've long wondered as it always seemed to me that here's this nowhere location (at the out of universe time we were told of the TC's doing such underhanded action) that the TC has been wasting their time trying to get to revolt, and then, after a hiccup where Jeffery stops such dealings, Super-Grover takes over. Then not even a full handfull of years later they go independent. Always seemed odd.

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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #52 on: 12 April 2013, 18:01:03 »
As they have their own arms manufacturers there, and it was Pirate attacks which pushed them away, I doubt it.  Hell, I'd be much more willing to say the CP was supporting them than the TC!
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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #53 on: 12 April 2013, 18:10:59 »
In fact, between FM:3085, M&M, The Field Reports and Objective Periphery and the TRO:3145:M, is evident that their is an alliance between the Calderon Protectorade, the Filvet Coalition and the Fiefdom of Randis. Trade treaties, military and technological exchanges, etc.
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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #54 on: 12 April 2013, 20:29:33 »
Lets examine that standing up. I belive the OWA cut a deal with the Kuritas and the Davions during the war robing the Star League of bases, men and resources.

Only House Davion.  DCMS troops were even more remorseless than the SLDF troops especially after a humiliating defeat to lesser forces.

Quote
The Star LEague didn't push the OWA as hard because of the blood bath in TC and the fact they didn't want to get in a shooting match with Davion and Kurita forces who where messing with each other.

Primarily because of the heavy resistance put up by the Taurians and House Davion was messing with both the SLDF and the DCMS primarily through bureaucratic red tape but covertly as well through the Pitcairn Legion.

Quote
The fact is the OWA miltary didn't inflict any major damage on the league, not surprising cause there miltary was weak to begin with.

The OA military did inflict several humiliating defeats on both the SLDF and the DCMS not as much as the TDF but for more than should have been expected for such a young military.

Quote
As for the so-called vaunted Aerospace. Yes there one of the best in perpehery (And they say the IS..Though I never heard of them tangling with any major IS power since the Star League fall).

They tangled with the Snow Ravens and were able to overcome their superior technology.  Both the Taurians and the Magistracy sent numerous pilots to the OA to train.

Quote
Still there aerospace contingent does not make up for there poor ground forces. You still need boots on the ground to hold anything and the OWA boots are nothing to brag about.

True, largely due to the psychology damage to the OA psyche suffered during the Reunification War.  Their ground forces did get a minor infusion when several mercenary units signed on permanently with the OA.

Quote
Lets not add the Tech lvl difference. OWA got the short end of the stick when it came to lost tech. (They are not a IS major house or kissed a major house behind for the advance tech like TC or MC) There tech was at best half IS upgrade and the rest 3025 tech (And that the aerospace witch they cared about..the ground was proabbly all 3025)

The Long Road Program called for increased funding, better equipment and training and an expansion of the AGDA.  Although not as advanced as other realms, the OA made their own marks in weapons technology.  Lushann Industries manufactured high quality advanced laser weapons are a highly desired commodity throughout the Inner Sphere and have appeared in several IS manufactured Mechs including the OTL-6D Ostsol, the SGT-8R Sagittaire and the BL-12-KNT Black Knight.  In 3063, after successfully reopening their Vendrell plant, Mountain Wolf BattleMechs reopened their plant on Alperatz and started manufacturing their signature BattleMech, the Night Hawk, there as well.  The United Outworlds Corporation has sold large numbers of aerospace fighters to the DCMS to make up for losses sustained in the Clan Invasion.
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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #55 on: 13 April 2013, 22:29:48 »
Agreed that the RA seems a lot less interesting than the Long Road era OA... but I'd hargue it is more interesting than the OA was in Periphery 1st.

What I wonder is, what happened to the OA's pilots? I doubt the five regiments of fighters wanted to all become bondsmen or junior clanners in the Raven military... and likewise I can't see them too happy being relegated to a space-militia force either. I wonder if some wings went rogue either turning into mercs or merc forces dedicated to some of the independent worlds that broke away from the Alliance. I can certainly see them/their descendants hiring out as protectionist forces for caravans from there to Filtvelt/TC/Etc regions.

Between that, the Broken Wheel region's operation on Tortuga, the Ravens hunting pirates themselves... I could imagine that quadrant of the periphery becoming the most pirate-free of all (particularly with piracy returning on some scale to the former pirate kingdoms/invasion corridor area) Maybe that is why the OA worlds are largely silent... they are reaping the best peace assets they've ever had?
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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #56 on: 15 April 2013, 13:00:26 »
What I wonder is, what happened to the OA's pilots? I doubt the five regiments of fighters wanted to all become bondsmen or junior clanners in the Raven military... and likewise I can't see them too happy being relegated to a space-militia force either. I wonder if some wings went rogue either turning into mercs or merc forces dedicated to some of the independent worlds that broke away from the Alliance. I can certainly see them/their descendants hiring out as protectionist forces for caravans from there to Filtvelt/TC/Etc regions.

The write-up for the NL-45 Gunboat implies that the OA military still exists as a separate entity (in that its rank structure is still being used).

And given that he Outworld military was a defensive army anyway, why would they object to becoming a militia?  It's essentially what they were anyway.

That's my two cents.
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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #57 on: 15 April 2013, 13:03:53 »
Does anyone else see any problems in having two completely separate military forces, technically independent of one another, operating on the same worlds?  It worked (mostly) for the Exiles and Lyrans, but not so much the Combine and Nova Cats.  Then again, it was a much weaker clan in a very large house. . .
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  • Assisting you and your enemies equally.
Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #58 on: 15 April 2013, 13:06:05 »
I do indeed.  Hopefully it gets cleared up in the Field Manual.
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Gracus

  • Warrant Officer
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Re: 3145 Periphery
« Reply #59 on: 15 April 2013, 21:15:07 »
I can see problems with it, but it's not without precedent.  That was arguably the relationship between the Continental Army and the local militias during the American Revolution, and it could be argued that this sort of situation attained in WWII Germany with the army and the SS divisions.  Its efficacy probably depends on how well organized they are in terms of area of responsibility.  I don't see the AGDA throwing around its weight to supersede local Raven military authority. 
Your stupid little opinion has been duly noted.

No. Shut up. And... *kicks you in the crotch*
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- Herb

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