3145 Periphery

[Longstrider]

OWA of all people should know what happen when you pick a fight with a Superior foe. They did it in the Reunification war against the Star League.

Terran nonsense. Need anyone in the proud periphery need reminding that it was the so-called "Star League" pursuing their bloodthirsty war of conquest across all of known space? No, the Periphery resisted this unification (there's nothing "re" about it) despite IS atrocities, to the best of their ability and then some.

As for the so-called vaunted Aerospace. Yes there one of the best in perpehery (And they say the IS..Though I never heard of them tangling with any major IS power since the Star League fall). Still there aerospace contingent does not make up for there poor ground forces. You still need boots on the ground to hold anything and the OWA boots are nothing to brag about.

...

They just happy to be left alone to live there lives and not be bother with politics
(Not really there fault if ya think about. Most BT people are Sheep-pole. There is not nationalism or patroic feeling in the bulk of them.)

And as ever, more lies from Terra. How is wanting to be left alone a Sheeple thing to do? If anything, it's the hearts of those Hegemony fanatics and their House lapdogs that beat to the drum of marching jackboots.

That said, I'm in general agreement with Cavalier that I don't think it's that weird for the OA to put up with the Ravens. UNLIKE the first wave of dirty stinking Earther thugs and their hangers-on, the Ravens a) didn't start out with atrocities and genocide and b) mostly do their own thing. The Outworlders are largely a peaceable people who do their own thing, and it's nobody's business what the next township across the horizon does in it's spare time. So I doubt the average Outworlder is going to care much what the Ravens are doing over in their own enclaves.

And as has been pointed out, what the Ravens have been doing in their enclaves is most likely to have benefitted the average Outworlder. Less piracy, after all. And the Outworld Militia seems to more or less remain intact.

Now, if the Ravens' shady dealings and fighting means lackeys from the Inner Sphere start trying to pick a fight with the Alliance again, I can see that causing a rift between the Outworlders and the Ravens - although maybe by then they'd rather have the Ravens around as largely silent partners than live kneeling before Luthien or New Avalon (or worst case scenario, grovelling on their bellies before the throne of Terra again). Though hey, I'm actually far more sympathetic to Devlin Stone and Jonah Levin than I am to any of the lunatics that spread their corruption from Terra before. Of course, if the walls come down and Levin or his successors ape the antics of the Cameron and Amaris goons, then I'm back to hoping that it gets a good dose of Taurian vengeance five centuries in the making.

[jeyar]

Sure you're not a TC fan?  :D

Meant as a compliment as it were...  >:D

[Longstrider]

Sure you're not a TC fan?  :D

Meant as a compliment as it were...  >:D

And appreciated as such. I was just looking for the banner. :P It's just too bad that the Suns lie in between the Concordat and Terra >:( - or any of the houses for that matter. Cameron's War of Terran Aggression may have gone differently had Hegemony worlds been the ones burning in the void.

Remember Santiago, friends of the Periphery!

[Isanova]

And appreciated as such. I was just looking for the banner. :P It's just too bad that the Suns lie in between the Concordat and Terra >:( - or any of the houses for that matter. Cameron's War of Terran Aggression may have gone differently had Hegemony worlds been the ones burning in the void.

Remember Santiago, friends of the Periphery!

Remember Robsart!

[Fatebringer]

In regards to the Raven Alliance military being both Raven and Alliance it probably has something to do with a second amendment type clause in their charter. AKA, you can't take away our right to defend ourselves! I think the difference is like having regular troops versus militia. While they train together and do join missions, the Alliance forces, unless they are ever upgraded across the board to Clan standards, they will never be an invasion force. The Raven side is also too small to make big waves. Not sure if staying in the nest for sixty years will change that much with the production numbers what we've seen. I mean, we've introduced some prosperity to the realm, but where is our focus? On invading others? Exploration to this big unknown area out here?

[cavalier1645]

And appreciated as such. I was just looking for the banner. :P It's just too bad that the Suns lie in between the Concordat and Terra >:( - or any of the houses for that matter. Cameron's War of Terran Aggression may have gone differently had Hegemony worlds been the ones burning in the void.

Remember Santiago, friends of the Periphery!

Or We would done stuff that would make Furlong's campaign look like a Birthday party. Remeber it was only because of the the colonials banding together (Crucis pact, etc etc) and Konrad's blunder, that stop Terra from uniting humanity the first time under Admiral Mckenna.

Remember the Camerons, Remember the First Star league. Humanity's golden age.

[Medron Pryde]

Humanity's Age of Slavery.

I'll pass.  :)

[Deadborder]

Can we actually have a discussion on the Periphery without it turning into a slanging match and the mods locking it? Because this one has taken a sharp turn for the worse allready.

[Korzon77]

To be more ah, detched, the reunification war is a lesson to both sides. 1.  Anyone thinking of trying to invade the periphery in a big way knows that it won't be fun.  Remember that the Reunification war, like the Clan war was mainly an ideological conflict-- the Star League gained nothing materially that they couldn't have gotten through traditional trade and lost a great deal-- I'd bet that when you deducted all the cost of garrisons, both revolts, the need to put togetehr secret bases, even ignoring the devestation the occupation economic dependency policies eventually created, that they likely barely broke even.

2.  The Periphery understands that an all out war is going to be terrible for them-- they'd be fighting against enemies that had the high ground, and could launch attacks without endangering their own dependents.

Combine 1, and 2, and anyone with a brain is likely not interested in "Reunification War II Electric Bugaloo".

And to be honest, you don't need it-- right now the periphery needs (especially the OA) the kind of force that can give them a breather from pirate raids. The Ravens need a home-- and even better, the Ravens have a small enough population, and the OA is spread out enough that a common problem, friction between populations, realy isn't a big deal.

[RunandFindOut]

And appreciated as such. I was just looking for the banner. :P It's just too bad that the Suns lie in between the Concordat and Terra >:( - or any of the houses for that matter. Cameron's War of Terran Aggression may have gone differently had Hegemony worlds been the ones burning in the void.

Remember Santiago, friends of the Periphery!

Only Plot made it not so.  Space is big and there are plenty of uninhabited systems to charge in.  I mean not even I can count the number of times I wondered how Faction A did X without Faction B hitting their most important worlds with relativistic drone dropships.  When it comes down to it during the 'Reunification War' the Taurians could have gone FU and smashed the Hegemony so hard it descended into a near failed-state and prevented the war from continuing.

In fact that would make an interesting AU.  The Terran Hegemony territory is something akin to the Chaos March liberally speckled with systems utterly devastated by relativistic dropships loaded with sand.  The Houses are all at war with each other in a replay of the Succession Wars, only without HPGs or ComStar they balkanize into smaller states like the FWL did in the canon timeline.  The periphery is free and has maintained most of their infrastructure but will be decades rebuilding it.  The Sol system itself is a barren lifeless place inhabited only by the Belters, who are self-sufficient and trade with nobody.

[cavalier1645]

Only Plot made it not so.  Space is big and there are plenty of uninhabited systems to charge in.  I mean not even I can count the number of times I wondered how Faction A did X without Faction B hitting their most important worlds with relativistic drone dropships.  When it comes down to it during the 'Reunification War' the Taurians could have gone FU and smashed the Hegemony so hard it descended into a near failed-state and prevented the war from continuing.

In fact that would make an interesting AU.  The Terran Hegemony territory is something akin to the Chaos March liberally speckled with systems utterly devastated by relativistic dropships loaded with sand.  The Houses are all at war with each other in a replay of the Succession Wars, only without HPGs or ComStar they balkanize into smaller states like the FWL did in the canon timeline.  The periphery is free and has maintained most of their infrastructure but will be decades rebuilding it.  The Sol system itself is a barren lifeless place inhabited only by the Belters, who are self-sufficient and trade with nobody.

Given the disparage of number of warships between the TH and TC. I find that scenario unlikely. The TH was the most powerful State in the IS back in the day. IT could have destroyed any single House or state by itself. It was the simple fact there was to many other enemies surrounding them (The Great Houses) that made them do the whole star league thing. 

Also you don't want to do a such an attack on the TH, the response would utterly destroy the TC. Remember the SL and the TH where hamper by their propaganda of reunification of all humanity under one banner. IF you did esintlialy a terror attack on the TH, you would have handed the Cameron a wonderful propaganda weapon, Then they could go nuts on the TC with out worrying about political or social backlash.

[RunandFindOut]

Also you don't want to do a such an attack on the TH, the response would utterly destroy the TC. Remember the SL and the TH where hamper by their propaganda of reunification of all humanity under one banner. IF you did esintlialy a terror attack on the TH, you would have handed the Cameron a wonderful propaganda weapon, Then they could go nuts on the TC with out worrying about political or social backlash.

No it wouldn't, there wouldn't be any leadership left to carry anything out.  I'm not just talking smack I've done the math.  A single Jumbo (though preferably you'd use the larger Aqueduct if you had them) loaded with fuel and sand thrusting from the far reaches of the system can render a planet uninhabitable and destroy its entire population.  The sand it carries released on approach can scour entire planetary orbitals of infrastructure.  And there's no clue left behind to figure out who made the attack. 

This isn't just another "terrorist attack" the TC had enough dropships and jumpships it could have simultaneously struck all the known centers of government and major military commands.  Depopulating the most important planets and taking out their orbital shipyards at the same time.  Chains of command collapse swiftly under those sort of circumstances.  There will be mass panic, disorder, and disintegration of government control.  Do you really believe none of the Houses will take advantage of that?  When we canonically know that they ate the Hegemony wholesale as soon as it was weakened.  And such an attack would leave it in a state at least as bad as that following the Amaris situation.

Such events don't happen in the canon timeline because they are harmful to the setting as a game and shift it away from its focus.  But in-universe they're both very possible and very much a sword of Damocles that changes the entire setting.

[Jaim Magnus]

So, um, how 'bout that 3145 periphery?  Kinda neat right?

[Weirdo]

3145 is awesome. Talking about 3145 is even better. Especially when you're in a 3145 thread! [rockon]

(Take the hint. [copper])

[Terminax]

So what do you think has happened in the ISP3 worlds by 3145?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

No, the 3145 Avellar-in-Charge is a joke and a hedonist. He'd rather get laid/drunk/stoned than do his job as President. I'm sure it's a powerless title, but it's still his job

As Baldur Mekorig mentioned, it could all be an act to keep the Ravens thinking the OA is well within their claws.

I think it might instead be that it IS his job to be Zaphod Beeblebrox.  For all the same reasons.

[RunandFindOut]

I think it might instead be that it IS his job to be Zaphod Beeblebrox.  For all the same reasons.

It's not too far-fetched considering the nature of the OA and the overall trend of its culture.  Most of those planets don't seem to really want much to do with the rest of humanity.  So given that the OA central authorities start out less powerful it doesn't seem unreasonable for them to be hollowed out over time.  Until they're basically a talking shop and a few figureheads for everybody else to make a fuss over while the planetary authorities take over most duties.  Conversely the central authority doesn't seem like it's less powerful overall than it was, so it may just be the office of president that's been turned into a figurehead. 

An early Weber honorverse book used a fairly good example of it.  Where the official leader of Grayson still had a great deal of power on paper, but other political forces had slowly taken things over until by tradition the official leader was highly restricted in what they could actually do.  Mind you it also illustrated that apparently ceremonial power may not be as ceremonial as it seems if you can bring the military to your side.  But at least he made token notice of the social backlash and civil unrest caused by seizing back powers that had in practice been devolved to other bodies.

Be interesting to see whether something similar happens in the OA or the President goes away and other political positions take over in a fully official way.

[Deadborder]

I think the big lesson is that the Periphery's nations can no longer afford to stand on their own, and that alliances are the key to the future.

The Magistracy have been the big winners of the Periphery since the early 3060s. Their technology levels and economy and so on have advanced by leaps and bounds to the point where they're at the equivalent level to one of the Successor States. That's something which is pretty much unprecedented in the history of the Periphery. They recovered from the Jihad faster then any other periphery state, and by the 3140s are probably the most powerful of the Periphery states.

How was this achieved? Through an alliance with the Cappelan Confederation. As the two states grew closer and closer together, it's been the Magistracy that has benefited the most from the deal.

The same goes for the Outworlds Alliance. The nation had spent the centuries of the Succession Wars slowly withering and dying. It's government was largely ineffective to non-existent,  essentially letting three-quarters of the nation wander off and having very little control over the rest. Infrastrucutre was crumbling or non-existant, literacy rates were abysmal and pirates were slowly chewing the nation's carcass. The people of the OA had a weak to non-eixstant national spirit, the government being largely ignored at the best of times.

The Ravens came in, engaged in massive infrastructure construction and development of the nation while also giving the OA a military that was capable of staving off the pirates that were a persistent threat to the nation.

As RunandFindOut pointed out, the OA's leadership has always been a non-issue. All the Ravens did was legitimise the point by removing power from the office.

[Colt Ward]

I do not know . . . I think we also have the opportunity for a periphery realm to weaken a House in an effort to reach parity.  The Taurians and Marians have the chance to weaken the Houses next door who were typically enemies and rivals.

For the Taurians, right now the FedSuns is being hit by their two ancient enemies and find themselves in shambles.  Just as in the S States threads recommending the CapCon consolidate by making peace, the Taurians can sort of run the same scheme.  Hit four or five worlds, threaten to hit more . . . then offer a peace treaty.  Limited gains to create a buffer, gain industry, and experience for the forces are all the upside . . . but you have to be prepared for the FedSuns not to give in.  Other question comes down to bit off more of the Capellan March or hit the Periphery March.  The latter has not been touched, but their quality of forces might not be as good as what the Cap March had fielded before getting kicked in.

For the Marians . . . the neoFWL is still consolidating, has Regulus as an enemy at the core and the Wolves on the border.  Snap up some periphery non-aligned worlds.  The biggest prize IMO would be Kendall with its factory and advanced production.  Again, LIMITED gains forced on the House which is occupied with other things which offers the House a chance to turn their attention to more immediate matters.  If nothing else the neoFWL MUST keep a strong border with the Crusader Wolf Empire which limits their ability to respond.  When Regulus and the neoFWL go to war, it is definately the time to kick this sort of strategy off- taking a factory just wounds them more.  IMO, they need to approach the Regulans and even go so far to slow their own forces build up to give the Regulans the chance to increase their quantity.

[tapdancingbeavers]

The same goes for the Outworlds Alliance. The nation had spent the centuries of the Succession Wars slowly withering and dying. It's government was largely ineffective to non-existent,  essentially letting three-quarters of the nation wander off and having very little control over the rest. Infrastrucutre was crumbling or non-existant, literacy rates were abysmal and pirates were slowly chewing the nation's carcass. The people of the OA had a weak to non-eixstant national spirit, the government being largely ignored at the best of times.

The Ravens came in, engaged in massive infrastructure construction and development of the nation while also giving the OA a military that was capable of staving off the pirates that were a persistent threat to the nation.

Why have you ignored most recent history of the Outworlds Alliance?  Neil Avellar improved literacy to levels not seen since the Star League era, Mitchel Avellar developed trade ties with Successor States and other Periphery realms which improved the economy and life of Outworlders.  He also improved the military of the realm, a military which defeated and impressed the Ravens.

[Deadborder]

Why have you ignored most recent history of the Outworlds Alliance?  Neil Avellar improved literacy to levels not seen since the Star League era, Mitchel Avellar developed trade ties with Successor States and other Periphery realms which improved the economy and life of Outworlders.  He also improved the military of the realm, a military which defeated and impressed the Ravens.

I'm not ignoring it by any means. I'm just saying that in spite of all that, the OA was still a relatively weak nation with an oft barely-functional government and frail economy. The Ravens presented the OA with opportunities that it would not have had otherwise, and they took them. Since then, the Ravens have done more for the OA since the Jihad then the Avellars did on their own.

[tapdancingbeavers]

I'm not ignoring it by any means. I'm just saying that in spite of all that, the OA was still a relatively weak nation with an oft barely-functional government and frail economy. The Ravens presented the OA with opportunities that it would not have had otherwise, and they took them. Since then, the Ravens have done more for the OA since the Jihad then the Avellars did on their own.

You said "Infrastrucutre was crumbling or non-existant, literacy rates were abysmal and pirates were slowly chewing the nation's carcass", that's a bit different from saying it is a "relatively weak nation".  Also, where are you getting that the Ravens have done more for the nation than the Avellars?  FM3085 says they revitalised industry and technology but we don't know much other than that about the Raven Alliance.

[Nerroth]

It will be interesting to see just how heavily deployed the HAF are in Capellan space as of Field Manual: 3145; if they have over-extended themselves in taking up this garrison duty, they might risk exposing parts of the Magistracy itself to foreign adventurism.


And speaking of which, now that the Marians are (or, at least, seem to be) starting to get over the whole Lothian thing, perhaps they could try to take advantage of such an exposure by making a play for worlds on or near to the Canopians' antispinward marches?

Thraxa and Vixen are now independent planets, some of the nearby worlds from ISP3 (such as Kleinwelt and Frobisher) might still be in the area, even if they don't show up on the ER:3145 maps, and Booker, the birth world of Johann Sebastian O'Reilly himself, isn't too far away either. (I wonder if the Marians would see the conquest of that world as their "Booker Prize"...)


While theres no particular reason to let the Marians actually win a potential new war with the Canopians, it would be a way to help give the Magistracy something to worry about in its own right, rather than sitting behind the buffers provided in other directions by the Capellans and Anduriens.

[Fatebringer]

Someone's got a thing against the Magistracy... wishing them ill and all. :) The advantage of a new setting is that we can jump past the breather years and get back to conflict. Only widescale conflict can allow nations like those in the Periphery to really have a chance at taking on bigger neighbors.

[Nerroth]

Someone's got a thing against the Magistracy... wishing them ill and all. :)

Far from it; in fact, the Canopians (or rather, the writeup for them in Handbook: Major Periphery States) helped me get properly into BattleTech as a setting.

I was just trying to think of ways to shake things up in their near neighbourhood. The Magistracy has been sitting somewhat prettily as of late, and the Marians have done little other than waste their time trying to get back at the Lothians during the Republic Era. Perhaps a re-sparking of the old rivalry between the MAF and MHAF could be a way to make things more interesting for both sides involved.

(Indeed, I could imagine the Canopians not being in too much of a hurry to call for help, should they be faced with a renewed Marian threat. They still want to show that they can take care of matters in their own house, without having to rely on the Capellans to do all of the fighting for them. In which case, one could imagine the Magistracy treating a tussle with the Hegemony as a more "private little war", at least so long as they aren't in too much peril by going it alone.)