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BattleTech Game Universe => Clan Chatterweb => Topic started by: Metallgewitter on 08 May 2023, 03:53:02
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Hi everyone
I have a question about bloodname trials: in the 3rd novel of the Blood Heritage trilogy Ulric Kerensky told Phelan that he waited for a specific bloodname to be avaliable. He also mentioned that some bloodnames were rising and falling during the Revival invasion. In specific it is about the Malthus bloodname from Adler Malthus who was disgraced by Kai Allard-Liao on Twycross. Said bloodname was open for a bloodname trial and no Mechwarrior wanted to touch it and so an Elemental took it (Taman Malthus). The book is a bit unspecfic but it almost sounds like as if Taman just showed up and said "I take it" and he got it without any real fight. Can something like this happen? That some disgraced bloodnames are simply open for grabs if the disgrace is big enough? Because who wants to fight for something that is actually "worthless"? Or is there at least a token trial required like a mock battle?
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Even mediocre bloodnames have a lot of value attached to them. I struggle to imagine anyone winning one without a fight and probably a full array of competitors.
I'd only expect the competition to be drastically reduced in the most extreme of circumstances, such right after the Wars of Reaving era, when a lot of eligible warriors were cut down by DNA targeted viruses and combat alike. But they would also react to suspend some Trials of Bloodright (effectively reducing the bloodheritage count or bloodcount), until the number of viable candidates has come back up.
The Clans don't like the idea of "watering down" their bloodnamed warriors by awarding bloodnames who warriors who potentially aren't worthy. They'd rather suspend that Trial of Bloodright until the time is better.
Ulric Kerensky was waiting for a specific bloodheritage to become available. Each bloodheritage has a history behind it, all of its previous holders, and therefore some bloodheritages are actually seen as more prestigious than others. He was waiting for a specific prestigious one.
The book Warriors of Kerensky page 39 describes a hypothetical. A bloodheritage of Bill Jones, a mediocre one, and the bloodheritage of Sam Jones, the most recent ristar in a line of ristar. It talks about how the latter will attract better warriors and more competition. The Bill Jones bloodheritage will attract its share of applicantsm but they won't be the best warriors, so the mediocre and ristar lines cycle tends to perpetuate itself.
The Malthus example is basically saying: this bloodheritage is traditionally held by a mechwarrior, lots of mechwarriors traditionally tend to compete for it, but very notably, every eligible mechwarrior candidate declined to participate in the Trial of Bloodright. That sends a strong statement about the current reputation of that bloodheritage.
I strongly suspect Taman Malthus still fought for it. I suspect there were still a full array of competitors. But the mechwarriors effectively boycotting the Trial of Bloodright put a weird spin on the situation, as warriors generally don't do that to any Trial of Bloodright, and it is almost basically implied that the holder of that Bloodname may be gaining a bloodname, but one with a particularly bad/rough reputation, and therefore, it will be up to that warrior to try to do something to restore its reputation. And hopefully not do anything to make it even worse. It is also implied that with so many warriors effectively boycotting that Trial of Bloodright, maybe the actual competitors weren't the best, maybe they were mediocre quality warriors. Maybe the bloodname didn't go to the best possible warrior. It put a negative spin on the whole thing. Mired it in controversy.
Normally winning a bloodname is almost nothing but upside, a tremendously important individual victory once you've won. This one is the exception, this one comes with baggage. A lot of warriors declined to participate so maybe the winner isn't the best warrior possible. Also that winner is forever attaching their name to Adler Malthus and the destruction of the Jade Falcon Guards. It is now up to that to restore its reputation. Hope they are up to the challenge!
Of course Taman Malthus succeeds, does restore some of the Malthus reputation. All this turns him into practically a celebrity within the Clan. It's a very compelling story of how a warrior took a bloodheritage from rock bottom back up to glory again.
Pivoting to your token Trial question....
The only time I've seen a kind of "token" Trial of Bloodright play out was with Vlad Ward. When he saved Clan Wolf from being absorbed by Clan Jade Falcon, his Trial of Bloodright was very weird. His competitors basically stepped forward and instantly yielded (or refused to defend themselves, letting Vlad draw blood and be victorious). He even declared before the Trial was over, that he was fighting over a different Ward bloodheritage than the one the Trial of Bloodright was originally set up for. Normally such a thing would be unheard of, but everyone just ran with it.
Basically all the remaining Crusader Wolves wanted Vlad to be Khan of the restored Clan Wolf. In their minds he had already earned that, but he needed a bloodname to be eligible to be Khan. So they went through the motions to give him one. But that was a very unusual and unique set of circumstances in the storyline of the Refusal War and its aftermath. Even then, technically, he faced challengers. Even if they yielded immediately or offered no resistance. Which speaks to the importance of at least honoring the traditions of the Trial of Bloodright.
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The book Warriors of Kerensky page 39 describes a hypothetical. A bloodheritage of Bill Jones, a mediocre one, and the bloodheritage of Sam Jones, the most recent ristar in a line of ristar. It talks about how the latter will attract better warriors and more competition. The Bill Jones bloodheritage will attract its share of applicantsm but they won't be the best warriors, so the mediocre and ristar lines cycle tends to perpetuate itself.
[spoiler]Of course the heritage of Flash Gordon is going to be superior! :D :))[/spoiler]
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The book Warriors of Kerensky page 39 describes a hypothetical. A bloodheritage of Bill Jones, a mediocre one, and the bloodheritage of Sam Jones, the most recent ristar in a line of ristar. It talks about how the latter will attract better warriors and more competition. The Bill Jones bloodheritage will attract its share of applicants but they won't be the best warriors, so the mediocre and ristar lines cycle tends to perpetuate itself.
Of course there are exceptions to this general rule. One example is the Malthus one, where a previously good blood heritage was stained by the actions of one holder. Then there are cases like Natasha Kerensky, where a ristar and great warrior just goes after (and wins) the first bloodheritage available and then by their own actions turns a lesser blood heritage into a better one.
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The book is a bit unspecfic but it almost sounds like as if Taman just showed up and said "I take it" and he got it without any real fight. Can something like this happen?
Or is there at least a token trial required like a mock battle?
It was always a bit suspect to me that not a single MechWarrior went after that Bloodname, but, it doesn't imply that no one else bothered with it.
I'm sure that specific heritage was "historically" know to be held by MW of the blood house. So maybe it got less interest....
But it wouldn't surprise me if Taman still faced off against some other Elementals or AS Pilots.
The Vlad example is a total outlier, basically he'd just done something that no one else in the clan thought was possible so they let him run the "Vlad Show"
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Has anybody explained how they conduct augmented elemental vs aerospace pilot trials?
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Has anybody explained how they conduct augmented elemental vs aerospace pilot trials?
Conveniently missing from fiction, and probably why some Heritages are known for specific Genotypes.
Like Taman was an Elemental going after a MW Heritage.
Meanwhile Cyrilla Ward's heritage was also a MW Heritage but was so prestigious that Elementals & ASP went for it knowing that fights could go very bad for them on the coin toss.
Like Elementals having to fight Augmented & anyone facing an Elemental Un-Augmented.
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Has anybody explained how they conduct augmented elemental vs aerospace pilot trials?
A topic of much speculation and little canon facts and no real consensus among the community.
To start with, I suspect they avoid this as much as possible. In the preliminary rounds they'd probably pair up elemental v elemental or pilot v pilot, as much as they can. Even a mechwarrior opponent for either would make more sense.
But then at some point, it does become unavoidable in the later rounds depending on who is left.
I once toyed with a version of this where the elemental would be given elemental armor (for the protection and mobility, but no weapons to keep the suit light) and would be given a battlefield of essentially field guns (thinking autocannons of various types) scattered around in an anti-aircraft mode and that can be activated and worked by a single person in elemental armor, and that elemental would be able to bound around the battlefield from one AA weapon to the other, using them to engage the ASF. While the pilot would be in the lightest ASF possible, with minimal armor, and stuck in the Short VTOL mode used for landing (ASFs can't vertically take off and land like a helicopter, but they can S/VTOL which means low speed take off and land, so I'm picturing that the fighter is effectively put into that mode and can't get out of it) and equipped with nothing more than perhaps a couple small lasers or something like that.
Basically, reducing that ASF down to something akin to slow helicopter speeds and with no weapons that can one-shot kill the elemental. And with the short-range weaponry it'll be forced to spend time at very low altitude. Against an elemental running around, hopping onto anti-aircraft emplacements, firing at the ASF, but then needing to move on to the next emplacement quickly because once that elemental has given up his location the ASF will attempt to strafe that emplacement to kill both warrior and weapon system.
But that's truly my own speculative idea, and some people I've run it by didn't like it (some days I don't either, I flip-flop on it a lot). Like I said, there's no real consensus on this one. This is a whole discussion in and of itself, that Clan fans have gone over many times over the years. I know people who have thrown out other suggestions for a setup. I've known people who suggest that they may not have a choice, it has to be an unaugmented fight. But that almost definitely favors the elemental. The pilot still has tricks to pull, like setting traps or fighting in zero-G but it's gonna be tough.
Another idea I've heard that I can see working...
I once heard someone speculate that in the event of an augmented fight, both warriors would don marine combat environment suits or hostile environment suits (both are like bulky space suits with very good armoring), or even just more typical infantry field uniforms and armor, carry small arms and fight that way. That actually made a lot of sense to me. The elemental would get to exploit some of their expertise in infantry-style combat and wearing/using armor in conjunction with weapons. The pilot gets to avoid a hand-to-hand fight and instead try to kill that elemental with a rifle or explosives or some other infantry-grade weapon.
In that augmented setup, I could even see some elementals with a fondness for a fair fight, an honorably won battle, actually selecting the augmented option to settle it in a gunfight. That's one of the upsides to this idea in my head. It presents an interesting set of pros and cons for each combatant and it presents the possibility that even if the elemental won the coin, they might choose either option.
Regardless of what setup is chosen.... If all warriors involved know this setup (whatever it is) is a possibility in the upcoming Trial of Bloodright, then all elementals and pilots can prepare and train for it as part of their workup to the Trial of Bloodright. We know a lot of warriors grab a coach/mentor and spend time training and preparing for the big event. I think if everyone knows that this augmented Trial setup (whatever it is) MAY happen far enough in advance, and so has time to train and prepare for it, it becomes pretty fair and reasonable.
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Maybe they have a bunch of converted crop dusters with machine guns and some armor for these duels. Any aerospace pilot shd know how to fly these right? :D
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I also kind of like an Aerospace pilot vs Elemental on a moon or warship where the ASF (a light one armed principally with small energy weapons) can actually move slowly across a moon or space ship engaging an Elemental who possesses cover and probably an ER Small or later Magshot equipped battle armor.
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To start with, I suspect they avoid this as much as possible. In the preliminary rounds they'd probably pair up elemental v elemental or pilot v pilot, as much as they can. Even a mechwarrior opponent for either would make more sense.
Sadly, in Phelan's known example, this doesn't seem to be the case.
He ended up facing only 2 MW along with 2 Elementals, & 1 ASP.
That would be a LOT of other phenotypes coming after that Bloodname if they had been paired w/ like previously.
But lets step back & think about this a minute from the Protocol & Decorum perspective.
1. 25 Heritages & based on the Alder Mathus example, they tend to get "typecast/profiled" into following a pattern where each Heritage is funneled into one of the phenotypes.
2. The 32 Nominees come from other Bloodnamed (24-25), the House Master (6-7), & the Grand Melee (1) (The variation comes down to if the deceased left a "will" with their nominee like Cyrilla did or if the House Master chooses it by default.
3. Most of the house is going to follow "norms" & nominate someone from the phenotype of that heritage. (Clanners don't like "Rebellion"/Wolverines, don't break faith)
4. For a Nominee to get pushed forward towards a non-matching phenotype heritage the un-blooded warrior has got to be pretty good friends with one of the Bloodnamed.
Not just "Your my Designated MW" kind of Friends, but, "I will go against the clan norms & nominate you for something that I normally wouldn't do because it will make me look bad" kind of Friend.
IE. Not just a Drinking Buddy but a I'll bury the Body w/ You kind of Buddy.
That, or the Un-blood is owed a huge favor by that Bloodnamed, etc etc.
The Cyrilla Ward example was held up as a "this is NOT the norm" kind of thing.
Her heritage was apparently one of the most valuable in the clans.
5. Finally, and this is just a personal perspective, but, any phenotype going for a non-matching heritage is likely going to be a target from everyone who is "supposed" to be there. The danger is, if you win the flip, then you likely have an easier time but the animosity is going to be huge. Meanwhile if you Lose the flip, then the standard phenotypes are going to be looking to KILL you, not just beat you.
Phelan was being very kind and un-bloodthirsty in his Trials, but it was noted that Vlad was not & was killing his opponents IIRC.
Augmented Elementals won't get wounded & signal surrender, they will get Stepped on or Alpha Striked till there is nothing left.
Un-Augmented Pilots will likely get their necks snapped, etc etc.
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5. Finally, and this is just a personal perspective, but, any phenotype going for a non-matching heritage is likely going to be a target from everyone who is "supposed" to be there. The danger is, if you win the flip, then you likely have an easier time but the animosity is going to be huge. Meanwhile if you Lose the flip, then the standard phenotypes are going to be looking to KILL you, not just beat you.
Phelan was being very kind and un-bloodthirsty in his Trials, but it was noted that Vlad was not & was killing his opponents IIRC.
Augmented Elementals won't get wounded & signal surrender, they will get Stepped on or Alpha Striked till there is nothing left.
Un-Augmented Pilots will likely get their necks snapped, etc etc.
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In the novel Natasha commented that there are risktakers who compete for bloodnames that are not their phenotype. The question is though are those all nominated? I can't imagine that those unblooded warriors simply say "I want in!" and then get a slot. I would assume that most of them are protegees of bloodnamed warriors (often high ranked ones I'd wager) who want to increase their power by getting more of their side into the coveted positions Like fo example the Diamond Shark Xoc who was on one side a gifted warrior and on the other had strong backing by the sharks saKhan who later became Khan. She also sponsored him for a slot in a Hammond bloodname trial and he won the name. So simply sending one of yours into a loosing battle just looks wasteful unless they know what can happen and weigh cost and beneiftand then decide.
Also in regards to augmented vs unaugmented: there is still the mitigating factor the coin toss looser can choose. Like in Phelan's trial the second Elemental choose to fight in an industrial district and Phelan was given a Mech without machine guns giving the Elemental an advantage as Phelan could not blast the windows efficently
Also I just thought of something: what happens to bloodnames that come from criminal warriors? Like Coomodus von Houten who was sentenced to lifelong prison aboard the Prince Eugen. His bloodname wasn't stripped apparently. Would anyone compete for THAT name? Well they might just to cleanse it but the stigma would be a lot
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Of course there are exceptions to this general rule. One example is the Malthus one, where a previously good blood heritage was stained by the actions of one holder. Then there are cases like Natasha Kerensky, where a ristar and great warrior just goes after (and wins) the first bloodheritage available and then by their own actions turns a lesser blood heritage into a better one.
Which is one of the things Ulric points out in that discussion IIRC.
As for criminals . . . well, Conal Ward's was left vacant until after the Refusal War and presumably re-instated with the rise of the Crusader Wolves. I would expect that Ward heritage to remain vacant among the Wardens.
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The question is though are those all nominated? I can't imagine that those unblooded warriors simply say "I want in!" and then get a slot. I would assume that most of them are protegees of bloodnamed warriors (often high ranked ones I'd wager) who want to increase their power by getting more of their side into the coveted positions Like fo example the Diamond Shark Xoc who was on one side a gifted warrior and on the other had strong backing by the sharks saKhan who later became Khan. She also sponsored him for a slot in a Hammond bloodname trial and he won the name. So simply sending one of yours into a loosing battle just looks wasteful unless they know what can happen and weigh cost and beneiftand then decide.[/quote]
[/quote]Also in regards to augmented vs unaugmented: there is still the mitigating factor the coin toss looser can choose. Like in Phelan's trial the second Elemental choose to fight in an industrial district and Phelan was given a Mech without machine guns giving the Elemental an advantage as Phelan could not blast the windows efficently[/quote]
[/quote]Also I just thought of something: what happens to bloodnames that come from criminal warriors? Like Coomodus von Houten who was sentenced to lifelong prison aboard the Prince Eugen. His bloodname wasn't stripped apparently. Would anyone compete for THAT name? Well they might just to cleanse it but the stigma would be a lot [/quote]
1. They have to be nominated, or try for the grand melee
As you say it would have to be quite the favor to be pushed into the wrong heritage, because it IS very much like wasting a protégé.
I can't imagine someone foolish enough to Grand Melee outside their Phenotype. Talk about imbalanced & a target for group fire.
The ASF seems like it has an edge, till 20 MW gang fire on it. The Mech is truly the "King" among Elementals, till the entire battlefield swarms him.
This really is a situation of "don't be a douche" or "stay in your lane".
2. Exactly, the coin toss turns an advantage to disadvantage quickly. Which is why Natasha point out that it is rare & only risk takers try it. Failure is likely death.
3. The Blood House Leader has to decide to put it up for trial, its possible the don't due to the disgrace or the Khan might suggest not to, or, that heritage could be attacked for Reaving due to the disgrace & "bad genes" of it.
As for Wanting it, few would, other than it IS a blood name, but this is a culture that wants to be the Best of the Best. So the truly elite would probably skip it & only those that had no chance of Nomination for a better name, IE, the Regulars, would go for it. Or as Taman did, took it from another Phenotype due to complete lack of competition.
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Sadly, in Phelan's known example, this doesn't seem to be the case.
He ended up facing only 2 MW along with 2 Elementals, & 1 ASP.
That would be a LOT of other phenotypes coming after that Bloodname if they had been paired w/ like previously.
I really only meant they may try to delay elemental versus pilot until the later rounds through stacking the matches that way, if possible. Those other mixes, mechwarrior versus pilot or elemental, fine with that in early rounds, and we know it happens based on Phelan's Trial. Elemental versus pilot just represents the most distant and arguably difficult pairing setup. If I was organizing a Trial of Bloodright, I'd arrange the match combatants so that's not likely to happen until and unless it just so happens that elementals and pilots are the only warriors left in the later round(s).
Regarding nominations. Yes, aside from Grand Melee participants and winners, all of those are nominated. But this does call attention to a parti of the nomination process that isn't explained.
The Trial of Bloodright nomination process as written/described in canon materials kinda assumes that all nominated warriors all want to compete. Which is apparently a bad assumption. As we've been highlighting in this thread.
So the nomination has to work both ways. You are nominated and you accept the nomination, choosing to compete. Evidently you can just decline. In which case I assume they turn around and nominate someone else. They need to fill all the slots with active participants.
I suspect some version of that happened with the Malthus mechwarriors. Either they declared that they wouldn't be participating prior to being nominated, or after being nominated. In this case with so many boycotting that Trial of Bloodright, they might have declared their intentions early.
To give another example, as we previously noted, Ulric Kerensky waited years until a particular bloodheritage came up. Did that mean he turned down previous nominations over the years as he waited for that particular bloodheritage to come up? Probably. That seems logical to me that it played out that way.
At that point the people handing out nominations, the existing Bloodnamed of that House plus either a either the Loremaster running a committee to pick nominations (in the case of an exclusive Bloodname), or the Bloodname House Leader (in the case of a non-exclusive Bloodname, start looking at the list of eligible warriors again to find new nominations. (source: Warriors of Kerensky, page 38)
As for criminal warriors, it depends on the crime, but I could see a Reaving vote come out of that Bloodname if that criminal was notorious enough. Otherwise it would just be handled normally. But the situation could look like the Adler Malthus Bloodname situation, with some warriors opting not to participate. While the ones who do participate will tell you that they want to redeem the honor of that bloodname (such a tact would probably be looked upon favorably by the Bloodname House, and that could be a useful angle in the area of Bloodname House politics).
These Bloodnames/bloodheritages have been around for hundreds of years, held by many holders of that bloodheritage. I suspect plenty of them have some black marks on their record if you look deep enough.
The books just describe their quality i.e. a long line of ristars versus a mediocre bloodname. That implies that this speaks to nothing but warrior quality and battlefield achievements. But things like criminal activity, or the politics of particularly noteworthy past-holders would definitely be a factor in my mind as well.
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From what I remember is that Ulric stated he had the opportunityies to win a Kerensky bloodname but waited until a specific bloodname was available. I think he also said that the name he holds had only 8 holders in it's "life" meaning that the name had distinguished warriors who lived long adding merit to it. He also said that this basically reinforces the hierarchy among the Clans with the strong ones competing for names with a certain gravitas while the mediocre warriors compete for rather obscure names. Though of course there can always be someone who elevates a bloodname to reknown but can also sink it's reputation. And we have for example the Jaguars who simply executed all children from disgraced bloodname warriors (the most extreme version)
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The Nomination thing, I would think, comes down to each blood named warrior having a few "favorites" among the unbloods.
Like Conal had Vlad as his chosen one.
Likely warriors serving under you, but those that you served with in the past or maybe just became acquainted with & hit it off as friends.
Point is, you probably have a few, and they probably aren't all elite uber warriors but a mix.
Chances are you discuss heritages in your off time & the Blood Named has a general feel for who wants what & if you know your favorite is waiting for XYZ person to die then you don't nominate them for DEF's name. Instead you nominate your #2 if they are open it it.
Point is I doubt you get a "I nominate Bill" and Bill says "No Thanks" in front of the Grand Council.
Preparation & Discussion before hand is likely the rule here.
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Which is not the problem, the problem is AFTER 1-24/25 are chosen . . . the remaining 6/7 are put forward by the Bloodhouse (supposedly on merits) which would have a list of the 'best' that were not sponsored.
Star Colonel Gregor Kerensky, who favors the ristar Ulric, decides not to nominate him for the available Bloodname because he knows he is waiting for Galaxy Commander Evander Kerensky to kick the bucket. But the ?(Nic or Andrey) Kerensky Bloodhouse leader has to select 7 or 8 entries (who is Natasha nominating after all) from the rolls of the Bloodhouse who are most eligible . . . and if Ulric was a ristar, his name would be on the list.
BUT the simplest method to avoid declining would be to loudly make it known you were not going to compete for a Bloodname until old Evander Kerensky died before another Kerensky ever keeled over.
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Mentor, Blood House Leader........ either way it falls under "Preparation & Discussion".
Given Vlad & Cyrilla relationship, I would thinking speaking to your house leader is not difficult.
I'm just guessing but I feel like each blood house wouldn't have more than a "battalion" of total bodies at any time.
Probably more like a company & a half. (Infantry figures, not Mechs)
Its 25 bloodnamed, I doubt a blood house could afford to run all 25 bloodname trials w/o repeat participants if some disaster took out all 25 at once.
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I can't imagine someone foolish enough to Grand Melee outside their Phenotype. Talk about imbalanced & a target for group fire.
The ASF seems like it has an edge, till 20 MW gang fire on it. The Mech is truly the "King" among Elementals, till the entire battlefield swarms him.
This really is a situation of "don't be a douche" or "stay in your lane".
Man, i suddenly feel the urge to fire up megamek, put 29 solitary elemental 'points' controlled by 29 bots, myself controlling an (urban?)mech, within a small arena, and see how long i can last. :))
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Man, i suddenly feel the urge to fire up megamek, put 29 solitary elemental 'points' controlled by 29 bots, myself controlling an (urban?)mech, within a small arena, and see how long i can last. :))
"Stop, drop, roll" all around the arena with Elementals as bowling pins sounds like a fun game
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I have a semi-related question. During this discussion I had this nagging thought that I had once read something in a canon book that called out a particular warrior, perhaps a mechwarrior, saying this person was one of the rare individuals to beat an elemental unaugmented. It said something like this person dragged out the Trial in some form of rough terrain until the elemental was killed or wounded via one of this warrior's traps. It might have said man-pits or man-traps.
This might have been as small as a sentence or two in a Field Manual book. I don't think it's a novel reference, I think it's a sourcebook reference that my brain is trying to cough up here.
But I've been digging around and I can't find it. Does anyone know the reference I'm speaking of?
I just have this nagging desire to find it again.
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You might be thinking of . . . the Rhino BA entry? The warrior staged reloads around the circle of equals and IIRC set up traps, though it was augmented against a vehicle or mech, I cannot remember. Mechwarriors do defeat Elementals in hand to hand . . . honestly, THIS sounds like the strategy for a Aero Pilot.
But it gets into one other aspect that the entry I mentioned is a rarity . . . while the Hunted can declare the battleground and conditions (IE, Phelan got zero-G while Marlotta Kerensky got mid-day) we do not see any other entry where a combatant can prepare the ground. So if it was un-augmented then a warrior would have to avoid the other combatant and build the traps as it went- making it a sort of Hunger Games arena.
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That's what I'm referencing reminded me of. Unaugmented fight by either a mechwarrior or pilot against an elemental, the warrior dragged out the fight, ran around in the woods or jungle and set traps, after the match had begun. And the elemental was wounded or killed in some kind of trap.
I swear I read that somewhere but I can't seem to find it now, and I'd like to find it.
It wasn't a play-by-play of what happened, it was a very brief reference, probably on an obscure Clan warrior that got mentioned like one time. Like how you see with some of the Star Colonels and Galaxy Commanders in the FM: CC and WC books.
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That's what I'm referencing reminded me of. Unaugmented fight by either a mechwarrior or pilot against an elemental, the warrior dragged out the fight, ran around in the woods or jungle and set traps, after the match had begun. And the elemental was wounded or killed in some kind of trap.
I swear I read that somewhere but I can't seem to find it now, and I'd like to find it.
It wasn't a play-by-play of what happened, it was a very brief reference, probably on an obscure Clan warrior that got mentioned like one time. Like how you see with some of the Star Colonels and Galaxy Commanders in the FM: CC and WC books.
You're close on the Rhino entry. It was a Trial for command of a Cluster. The Rhino Elemental staged missile reloads all across the area with simple pulley systems to all her to reload the SRMs on her suit. After many missile salvos she took down the Star Colonel's Black Knight.
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There was also the one-on-one by Jeremiah Rose of the Black Thorns against an Elemental, where he set up a trap in a dropship to kill his opponent.
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I finally found what I was looking for. Field Manual: Warden Clans page 68. Under the Sharks 27th Cruiser Cluster (Alpha Galaxy).
It wasn't a Trial of Bloodright, but competition for the cluster CO slot (this would have been during the rebuilding period after the Battle of Tukayyid), which it describes as being very competitive. A reservist Jem Rodriguez beat Elemental Star Captain Torrence Maine in hand-to-hand combat. The Trial was in a wooded area and Rodriguez relied on speed and stealth to stay away from Maine until he fell into one of her mantraps.
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Just thought of something: if the duel is unaugmented can the looser also ask for a specific sort of weapon? Like for example "we fight with swords" or something like that? I read that the usual trials like a trial of grievance can be fought with almost any weapon available so I would assume this goes also for bloodright trials
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I believe unaugmented is always hand to hand but Augmented can include melee
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Yeah, augmented is a weapon.
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Just thought of something: if the duel is unaugmented can the looser also ask for a specific sort of weapon? Like for example "we fight with swords" or something like that? I read that the usual trials like a trial of grievance can be fought with almost any weapon available so I would assume this goes also for bloodright trials
No. The hunter picks the manner of the fight: augmented in war machines, on foot but augmented with hand-held weapons, or unagumented (only your body parts and clothes you're wearing). The hunted chooses the battlefield (time, place, & size of the circle of equals). These rules apply outside of bloodname contests, but sometimes include contests of skills other than just combat.
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on foot but augmented with hand-held weapons,
That's a thing?
Where is this from?
Do you have examples of where this was chosen?
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Well, there is talk of Falcons & knives in recent material . . . but the Scorpions have some . . . dance? with whips IIRC, in FMWC.
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I think the Scorpions dancing the scars were with the Zulfiqar sword but whips would make things interesting particularly since the Medusa is highly responsive.
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In Aidan Pryde's first battle of his Trial of Bloodright they fought using only hunting knives and minimal clothing. Aiden then picked a certain forest at midnight. The other warrior, Lopar, used the knife to fashion a bunch of traps and sharpened sticks
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Mentor, Blood House Leader........ either way it falls under "Preparation & Discussion".
Given Vlad & Cyrilla relationship, I would thinking speaking to your house leader is not difficult.
I'm just guessing but I feel like each blood house wouldn't have more than a "battalion" of total bodies at any time.
Probably more like a company & a half. (Infantry figures, not Mechs)
Its 25 bloodnamed, I doubt a blood house could afford to run all 25 bloodname trials w/o repeat participants if some disaster took out all 25 at once.
For smaller bloodhouses, i doubt they can even dig up 32 competitors.
If a bloodhouse is only down to 2-3 active Bloodrights, chances are they have less than 32 active warriors. In that case, I expect the first round to be a bye for some (depnding on the draw), and no Grand Melee - anybody who is still an active warrior and not tested down/out gets a shot.
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I don't think that Bloodname Houses with that less than 5 bloodheritages are allowed to continue. I think they either have to improve that situation within some time period, or risk being deactivated (no new eligible cadets bred).
My evidence:
WoK p. 38: Bloodlines that fail to produce even mediocre warriors are abandoned.
P. 39: Occasionally a Bloodright or even an entire bloodname is deemed to have failed, paving the way for it to be eliminated.
P. 40: (referring to number of bloodheritages) it says some have been reduced to 20 or 15, while the poorest may have a bloodcount as low as 5. Through this method a handful of lines have ceased to exist.
P. 40: Abandoned bloodlines aren't destroyed, only an annihilation or abjurement can do that. They are dormant and may be reactivated.
Fastforward to the Wars of Reaving books and it notes that some bloodnames are dormant or of minor use and it puts an asterisk next to some bloodnames like Tseng, which have a bloodcount of elss than 5.
My conclusions:
Given all of the above, personally I believe that prior to the Wars of Reaving era, the Clan eugenics program saw a bloodcount of 5 as a kind of rock bottom. If you can't sustain at least that, if you lose 1 more and hit a bloodcount of 4. That's like the start of a death clock, as in that Bloodname House has about a generation to improve this situation. They don't bother reaving down a bloodcount of 3, 2, 1, that Bloodname House is basically on the cusp of being deactivated/abandoned. Meaning they'll stop breeding eligible cadets and within a generation or two that Bloodname House will just cease to exist. It's standing on that knife edge and needs to either needs to do well and gain in bloodcount through Trials of Propagation or the scientists deciding to reactivate it.
Considering also that among the Clans, the number 5 seems to be ever-present in everything, that makes a lot of sense to me. It's a bit arbitrary, but so is the Clan love of that number.
The Wars of Reaving era differs a bit. The book Wars of Reaving lays out the remaining bloodnames, noting those with bloodcounts of less than 5. Also generally noting that some other obscure bloodnames are still around, in limited use or dormant.
But I think that era and material should be viewed as a unique situation rather than a normal or new normal. The bloodname Tseng is a great example. It is one of the pillar Bloodnames of the Ghost Bears. It was specifically targeted by a DNA-targeted virus that killed many of its living members. That doesn't even get into all the warfare of this period that killed many warriors. In the interim, I suspect the Bloodcount was just reduced to less than 5 to reflect its living warrior population (so they didn't water down the quality of the bloodnamed Tseng warriors by basically just giving most of the living members a Bloodname). After 20-100 years the bloodcount probably shot back up and it resumed being a major Bloodname House with a high bloodcount.
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So how can dormant bloodnames be reactivated again? From what I have seen is that there doesn't seem to be a ritual or trial specifically mentioned for this. Unless it is somehow covered with a trial of propagation. Though I could also see any Khan who decides "Reactivate bloodname Jones" might have to go through some serious trials or make concessions like "If they don't perform well we reave them from the repository completely" After all from what I understand is that dormant bloodlines are not destroyed but simply "lie in cold storage"
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One piece that I really like is from the WizKids fiction part of their website. It's an article titled, "Narrow Bloodlines: A Look at the Great Reavings, Then and Now" and it can be found on the downloads page of this website in the Dark Age section under the link title "3132-3134 INN" or at this link http://bg.battletech.com/download/DarkAge_3132-3134_INN.pdf (http://bg.battletech.com/download/DarkAge_3132-3134_INN.pdf)
In general it covers normal bloodheritage Trials of Reaving (not the Wars of Reaving methods), Trials of Propagation (to increase the bloodheritage count by 1), and Trials of Founding (for new bloodnames).
So how can dormant bloodnames be reactivated again? From what I have seen is that there doesn't seem to be a ritual or trial specifically mentioned for this. Unless it is somehow covered with a trial of propagation. Though I could also see any Khan who decides "Reactivate bloodname Jones" might have to go through some serious trials or make concessions like "If they don't perform well we reave them from the repository completely" After all from what I understand is that dormant bloodlines are not destroyed but simply "lie in cold storage"
In the article above there's a brief mention of the Horses shifting some less effective bloodlines over to their new Tankwarrior phenotype which is one way to reactive a line. There's also lots of lines that have low sibko production, they don't produce great warriors, but seem to produce enough good ones to stay active. It's tough for a line to truly go dormant because for that to happen, every Clan that has the right to use that DNA must stop producing warriors. As long as at least one clan is producing warriors, then the line doesn't need to be reactivated. If no one is making warriors where the genemother is of that line then it would need some kind of long-term plan to begin production again. Another possibility is if there are warriors where the genefather is of that line, you could do something similar to the Trial of propagation/Trial of Founding to increase the count.
At the same time, the Clans have the mindset to not waste resources. If a certain line produces good warriors, but there are no bloodheritages for that line, just use that DNA as the genefather.
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So how can dormant bloodnames be reactivated again? From what I have seen is that there doesn't seem to be a ritual or trial specifically mentioned for this. Unless it is somehow covered with a trial of propagation. Though I could also see any Khan who decides "Reactivate bloodname Jones" might have to go through some serious trials or make concessions like "If they don't perform well we reave them from the repository completely" After all from what I understand is that dormant bloodlines are not destroyed but simply "lie in cold storage"
Except sometimes the Khan deactivates things- consider Conner Ward's Bloodheritage was left vacant after his actions with the Red Corsair.
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So how can dormant bloodnames be reactivated again? From what I have seen is that there doesn't seem to be a ritual or trial specifically mentioned for this. Unless it is somehow covered with a trial of propagation. Though I could also see any Khan who decides "Reactivate bloodname Jones" might have to go through some serious trials or make concessions like "If they don't perform well we reave them from the repository completely" After all from what I understand is that dormant bloodlines are not destroyed but simply "lie in cold storage"
We don't know the exact procedure. Canon materials don't address this specific scenario. They do talk about a Trial of Propagation as you pointed out, but that is merely increasing the bloodcount of an existing Bloodname House, which would have living members to play the politics and fight the Trial if there is one.
I would speculate that the situation may be similar. All you need are the political ingredients (aka scientists say we need this for genetic diversity and also lay out reasons why they think the Bloodname House could produce successful warriors, and/or the dormant House gains a champion who would like to see them given another chance) to make the case in the Clan Council or perhaps in the Clan Grand Council/Council of Clans. And enough warriors vote in favor.
In the event of a Trial of Refusal against the vote, you'd have warriors who voted for and against forming a force to fight it out.
I suspect this is genuinely quite rare. Dormant Bloodname Houses with no living members would have few, if any, supporters willing to expend political capital, resources, and perhaps even lives in a Trial. But we have seen it happen. In the aftermath of the Wars of Reaving the Coyotes brought back all the Bloodname Houses from the Blood Scandal that they had reaved generations prior. That's probably the biggest example I can think of.
We do also know that a number of bloodheritages were reactivated just prior to Operation Revival, on the condition that if the holders performed well it would stay that way. Most of those were deactivated when those warriors died. But we don't know if this was from any deactivated Bloodname Houses or just raising the Bloodcount of existing/active ones.
A similar situation exists just after the Refusal War. WoK page 40 says that the Crusader Wolves reactivated a block from the "hitherto ignored" Widowmaker lines. But it isn't clear if that means Bloodname Houses that were dormant. Or just pulling more genetic legacies off the shelf and putting them to use and also increasing the bloodcount of active Bloodname Houses within the Crusader Wolves.
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To get back to my main topic question I flipped through the Dark fate novel and there ulric stated that while no Mechwarrior wanted to touch Adler Malthus bloodname there were still trials and in the end it went to an elemental (taman Malthus) So yes there are trials and even "real" trials and not perfuntionary trials for disgraced blood heritages.
And ulric also stated that he was eligable for bloodname trials but he waited for a specific one because of it's prestige. And as Phelan also states in that discussion good warriors competing for strong names while mediocre one comepte for rather weak ones it strengthens the hierarchy within a clan. And it can also sort out reckless warriors who try to increase their prestige with risky actions.
There was also the mention of bloodname trial or rather the match up of differernt phenotypes. Phelan's fight against his second Elemental opponent mentions that the elemental had fought unaugmented against two mechwarriors and a fighter pilot. The fighter pilot died while the two Mechwarriors were hospitalized. just shows that being a fighter pilot makes tials in non fighter bloodname trials hard as hell.
Also I think we had this discussion before but what about tankers? Clan Hell's Horses has a lot of tankers and from what I remember tank commanders are usually those who can have bloodnames. if they fight augmented against say an elemental how might such a trial look like? If the elemental gets the choice of the battlefield I would say use a heavily forested area and the vehicle is basically useless
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Also I think we had this discussion before but what about tankers? Clan Hell's Horses has a lot of tankers and from what I remember tank commanders are usually those who can have bloodnames. if they fight augmented against say an elemental how might such a trial look like? If the elemental gets the choice of the battlefield I would say use a heavily forested area and the vehicle is basically useless
First off, tankers with bloodnames actually isn't that common (based on canon evidence). Among the Hell's Horses tankers and infantry are warriors who failed their first Trial of Position and were relegated to a lesser class of a equipment. So they are kinda seen as second-rung warriors. Insofar as I know, we've never seen a tanker or conventional infantryman command a Hell's Horses cluster, Galaxy or occupy a position of senior leadership such as Khan.
Even in the more recent eras (Dark Age onward), which introduces the TankWarrior. You have sibkos specifically being bred to be tankers from the start. Canon sources tell us that few tankwarriors achieved a rank higher than Star Captain, earn a bloodname, or occupied higher office. It also notes that the discrimination against vehicle warriors is still very present and real, even in the Horses. The whole Tankwarrior concept was deemed to be somewhat lackluster. It seems to continue but has proven to be somewhat disappointing and really hasn't developed much of a distinctive phenotype. I suspect alongside the tankwarriors you still have a majority of the Horses' Tank Corps being warriors who failed their first ToP and were relegated to vehicles.
All that being said, let's shift to what such a Trial might actually look like, and how it might be regulated.
As for The Trials of Bloodright themselves, you just need a vehicle that can be managed by a crew of 1, or modified to do so. We have canon evidence that this can be done. A Ghost Bear Galaxy Commander named Alexandr in FM: Warden Clans as described as being quite impressive and hints that he may even take a captured Athena into a Jorgensson Grand Melee if one-man controls can be rigged. Then by FM: Updates, set years later, he's bloodnamed. It's not conclusive, but this implies he resolved the technical challenges and won. Against an elemental some of the lighter vehicles are better matchups. I can see some Zoryas, Mithras, Asshurs appearing in this role a lot (Other good examples out there, I'm naming vehicles that are common among the Clans and have been around a long time). Possibly with some weapons deactivated to better match the firepower of an elemental.
I can absolutely see an elemental choosing to fight in rough terrain. But there has to be a line somewhere, where an objection would be raised. A completely dense forest (zero paths, zero roads) that allows for zero vehicle movement, gets a red flag, a Neg and a "Select a different battlefield" from the Bloodname House Leader running the show.
Same with an elemental declaring "let's fight on the hull on a space station." Unless that vehicle has the Sealed equipment, that's instant death for the crew while the elemental survives in his spaceworthy battle armor.
A hovercraft warrior getting the venue and saying "on the surface of the ocean" to his elemental opponent. The hovercraft is zipping around the water. The elemental steps off the hovering dropships' ramp and instantly sinks to the ocean floor. Neg.
Some common sense is required here that conforms with the Clan sense of fair play and the concept of actually earning honor and glory via winning a battle. A forest with roads and some fields? Sure. An urban environment with roads and some large empty parking lots? Sure. Paths that a vehicle can use. That makes sense. The elemental can absolutely exploit the environment to try to ambush or outflank the vehicle, but there's still the potential for a good fight.
The person running the Trial, usually the Bloodname House Leader, would be able to veto any silly too exploitive ideas. A venue that gives the warrior choosing it an edge or advantage is fine. But an instant "Gotcha, I win" just by choice of venue is not acceptable.
I suspect to avoid a lot of this nonsense, there are actually a lot of rules and regs surrounding a Trial of Bloodright (remember Clan warfare is very ritualized in its strict form, which a Trial of Bloodright would generally adhere to), that are shared with the participants in writing well beforehand. Not unlike how a professional athlete is expected to know the rules of their chosen sport. Even then the Bloodname House Leader can step in like a referee should anyone cough up something too objectionable.
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You did hit on one thing, that the House Leader would be in a position to force changes/modifications that would make the battle more fair. Going back to Phelan, against the Elemental he fought in a Mercury instead of his regular Mech. Similar when fighting the aerospace pilot, he used a heavier Nova.
Going back to the hovercraft in the ocean vs an Elemental, there are Undine Battle Armor suits that have UMUs. And reading the fluff of the Elemental BA in TRO3058U, there were earlier versions of the Gnome, Sylph, Salamander, and Undine. We saw the Gnome's predecessor, the Rhino in TRO Golden Century. A water-based Battle Armor suit that had some kind of laser and torpedoes would be horrible for a hovercraft, since the BA could hit it from under the water and the hovercraft couldn't fire back
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As for The Trials of Bloodright themselves, you just need a vehicle that can be managed by a crew of 1, or modified to do so. We have canon evidence that this can be done. A Ghost Bear Galaxy Commander named Alexandr in FM: Warden Clans as described as being quite impressive and hints that he may even take a captured Athena into a Jorgensson Grand Melee if one-man controls can be rigged. Then by FM: Updates, set years later, he's bloodnamed. It's not conclusive, but this implies he resolved the technical challenges and won.
He did, check IIRC FMU
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You did hit on one thing, that the House Leader would be in a position to force changes/modifications that would make the battle more fair. Going back to Phelan, against the Elemental he fought in a Mercury instead of his regular Mech. Similar when fighting the aerospace pilot, he used a heavier Nova.
Going back to the hovercraft in the ocean vs an Elemental, there are Undine Battle Armor suits that have UMUs. And reading the fluff of the Elemental BA in TRO3058U, there were earlier versions of the Gnome, Sylph, Salamander, and Undine. We saw the Gnome's predecessor, the Rhino in TRO Golden Century. A water-based Battle Armor suit that had some kind of laser and torpedoes would be horrible for a hovercraft, since the BA could hit it from under the water and the hovercraft couldn't fire back
Fair points. I wasn't thinking about any of that. I was just picturing a standard elemental in standard Elemental armor. No UMUs, no Undines nothing. Elemental sinks to the bottom of the ocean without a shot fired and drowns, and how such a venue selection would represent a ridiculousness that no Trial of Bloodright would tolerate.
And I'm trying to draw a connection line between that kind of logic, and how they wouldn't tolerate plunking a vehicle in a completely impassable spot and let the Elemental exploit some "gotcha" venue to insta-win.
They want these fights to be good fights, cleverness is fine, but good fights, in which the victor has showered themselves in glory by winning a good, tough fight. The people managing the Trial of Bloodright have the responsibility to ensure what happens and that there's nothing hanging over the entire affair that casts doubt on the validity of the Trial.
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Kinda have to necro this thread as I thought of another question in regards to trials.: the Clans have the absorption trial when one Clan is deemed weak and open up for absorption. so far every granted trial was succesful. But what if the defending Clan wins? Would that redeem themselves in the eyes of the other Clans and what price would the aggressor have to pay? Because there is one interesting bit about Clan trials that seem to be used very sparingly: the option of asking for a reward (is that the right term?) if the defender wins. I know that option exists (though I don't know what the correct Clan term is) but that it is rarely used. Why is that? I get this for perfunctary trials where the outcome is "fixed" but what about other trials? Or is simply winning enough?
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While we have only seen a few successful Trials of Absorption, we know it has been threated a couple times since fiction has fleshed out the Clans and would likely have happened before- such as after the Mongoose were wrecked. Asa Taney made some hints as part of his build up to the Tantrum, but Marthe & Vlad turned it on him saying a Invader could never be absorbed, but they might take in a Homie.
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Kinda have to necro this thread as I thought of another question in regards to trials.: the Clans have the absorption trial when one Clan is deemed weak and open up for absorption. so far every granted trial was succesful. But what if the defending Clan wins? Would that redeem themselves in the eyes of the other Clans and what price would the aggressor have to pay? Because there is one interesting bit about Clan trials that seem to be used very sparingly: the option of asking for a reward (is that the right term?) if the defender wins. I know that option exists (though I don't know what the correct Clan term is) but that it is rarely used. Why is that? I get this for perfunctary trials where the outcome is "fixed" but what about other trials? Or is simply winning enough?
For a Trial of Absorption, just winning is enough. But it's also possible that the victors might scoop up a lot of the defeated warriors and equipment off the battlefield(s) as isorla.
But that's still a big deal to win such a thing. Trials of Absorption are rare and come about because most of the Clans agreed to do it. That doesn't happen easily or lightly. You've proven a lot of people wrong by winning.
Keep in mind often this is a lot of Clans voting to absorb, and also voting one Clan to be the absorbing Clan. So even if Clan Smoke Jaguar is the Clan selected to absorb Clan Mongoose for example. Clan Smoke Jaguar is just the fighting Clan of a whole voting block of Clans that voted for Absorption. You referred to the "aggressor" well technically, politically, a lot of Clans were the aggressors, enough to initiate the Trial.
There is an argument to be made that the outcome of the Refusal War, which became a de facto Absorption, is in fact a representative example of a Clan actually winning this kind of thing. Vlad fought for the Wolves to remain a Clan. He won, he was granted that.
In the aftermath of that, the new Clan Wolf under Vlad Ward was very weak for a while (militarily). But by and large the rest of the Clans left them be (as well as the dramatically weakened Falcons). They didn't swoop in to try and finish them off. Though the Hellions tried the initiate absorption votes for both, the fact that those political efforts failed suggest to me that the other Clans thought it inappropriate at that stage. Though the more canon official reason is that the Falcons and Wolves supported each other's anti-Absorption efforts in the Grand Council.
I think that's what winning garners you, some respect and some time. You've proven the consensus wrong, so you are given the breathing room you need to regain your strength. It's not that different than granting the victorious warrior on the battlefield a chance to heal from their wounds before they have to fight again. But Vlad Ward wasn't even content with that, he organized a strike against the Smoke Jaguars as soon as possible to prove the Wolves still had teeth. This further cemented the idea that the Wolves had a right to exist in the minds of the Grand Council Khans.
In theory, another outcome might be a Clan deciding to be your protector for a while. Sorta like how the Star Adders protected the Stone Lions for a while so the new Clan had the breathing room to get itself together. No guarantee of that happening I think, but having survived a Trial of Absorption, suddenly stacking up some powerful allies, even those willing to fight to secure your right to exist as a Clan for a while, that makes a lot of sense to me. That might be pure generosity, the act of building a new/renewed political ally, or a smack in the face of a political enemy who was strongly for the absorption, or even negotiated (i.e. fight for us for a while and we'll give you X, Y and Z in return).
After the Refusal War, that's what the Wolves and Falcons kinda did politically. They provided some political power to each other by defending each other's right to exist in the face of new Absorption arguments in the Grand Council, but also showed themselves to be potential new allies to each other. That changed the whole calculus on evaluating their strength, politically and militarily, and bought them time I think.
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Clans Widowmaker, Mongoose, and Burrock all faced formal Trials of Absorption approved by the Grand Council and were defeated. After defeating Ulric in the Refusal War, the Jade Falcons turned that into a defacto Trial of Absorption. But then everything Vlad did effectively nullified that defacto Absorption. After the Absorption of the Burrocks was awarded to the Adders instead of the Spirits, the Spirits launched their own unauthorized absorption that was rebuffed.
During the Wars of Reaving the Goliath Scorpions bargained a Trial of Absorption of the remains of Clan Ice Hellion. A similar offer was made to the much smaller remains of the Fire Mandrills on Dagda. The Viper saKhan objected in the next Grand Council session to the Hellion Absorption (it had been previously ordered to 3 other clans), but it was eventually approved by the council. The Blood Spirits were technically absorbed by the Adders, but it was in-effect an annihilation.
In addition, over the clans history multiple Trials of Absorption have been put to a vote, and many failed the vote. Typically by the time the formal Trial is approved, the odds are enough against the target to ensure a win while still making it a challenge.
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Thanks for the input. I always wondered how a failed absorption would look like. The case with the Falcons and Wolves wasn't a real absorbtion imho but rather a measure to look stronger after such a brutal blood letting. After all the Falcons had lost a lot of manpower and were also embarassed by their defeat against the Kell Hounds who fought alongside Phelan's Wolves on Morges. And in terms of the later trieed absorbtion by that point the Wolves and Falcons had shown that they still had some bite left in them. Just imagine if a trial of annihilation is issued and the defender wins. What then? Are those that declared the trial made dezgra? After all annihilation is the most brutal trial in the clan's political playbook
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Which is the point, all the failed 'Trials' of Absorption were defeated before hand in the Grand Council. The one that really could have been contested was the Burrock Aborption, they were not absorbed because they were weak but because their leadership was corrupt. This lead to the troops to surrendering to the Adders in many cases and especially when the Spirits got involved.
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I think you are conceptualizing the nature of victory wrong in these extreme cases.
MULTIPLE Clans, the entire Grand Council, votes to abjure or annihilate a Clan.
They then task one Clan to carry it out.
I don't think the target Clan can actually win on the battlefield alone. The only reason the Jade Falcon versus Wolf thing went differently was because it was truly just the Falcons versus Wolves running this de fact absorption.
In all the other cases, it's all of those Clans who voted in favor.
So let's just say for sake of discussion that a Trial of Absorption, Annihilation or Abjurment is declared. And one Clan is tasked to carry it out.
If that Clan fails to defeat the target Clan in battle. It doesn't really matter. They are out. They've already been kicked out of the club. It's just a matter of what happens next. There's a decent chance they just task yet another Clan, or maybe even multiple Clans, to finish it. Or they cut all political ties all together and that Clan in effect becomes a separate society. In the eyes of proper Clan society they are akin to bandits. They don't get a seat at the Grand Council, they lose all legitimacy.
When the Nova Cats were abjured, there was no victory to be won. They were technically given a period of time to leave, but in reality what happened was nobody honored that, every Clan tore into the Nova Cats touman and enclaves wherever they were. There wasn't Zell honored, nothing. Even if a specific Nova Cat unit won a victory, that lasted until the next wave of aggressors appeared to attack them.
If the Star Adders had been defeated on the battlefield by the Burrocks. Unless they can somehow spin things around politically, the Burrocks are still a target. There is a very good chance the Grand Council will simply declare another Clan to continue the absorption. The Burrocks only chance really is to somehow convince the Grand Council that the Trial outcome AND the vote were in the wrong. That the Burrocks not only were victorious on the battlefield, but that the Grand Council "really ought to see this new evidence that proves the Burrocks deserve a new vote on the issue of Absorption."
So unless you can beat EVERY other Clan out there militarily, or turn the tide politically.... there is no such thing as winning these kind of Trials. These are more tools of politics than Trials of the battlefield.
If you lose the vote, you've already lost the outcome. Unless you somehow convince the other Clans, politically, to reverse that decision. Otherwise, on the conservative end of the spectrum, if they need to vote to absorb/adjure/annihilate again, conservative view on this, they spend a little time contemplating the situation. MAYBE they let you have an audience before the Grand Council to argue why that vote was in the wrong, maybe you've earned a chance to come in and argue your case. Then the Grand Council votes to absorb/adjure/annihilate you again if you weren't persuasive enough.
None of the Trial types are "one and done" affairs. You can declare Trials of Possession, Grevience, Refusal, multiple times. You can vote to abjure, absorb or annihilate multiple times as well. So they just keep coming at you until you somehow convince them that the decision was wrong and that they should stop and accept/re-accept you as a Clan.
And no, there's no de facto punishment for the losers. The aggressive Clan just represented the interests of all the Clans who voted that way. There's no penalty. Except perhaps being perceived yourself as extremely weak if you lose such a Trial.
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Didn't the remaining home clans gang up on the Steel Vipers near the end of the WoR? That was an Annihilation.
So we know that the surest way to survive absorption, abjuration, or annihilation is to run. To stay and try fighting off all the other clans is suicide.
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Didn't the remaining home clans gang up on the Steel Vipers near the end of the WoR? That was an Annihilation.
So we know that the surest way to survive absorption, abjuration, or annihilation is to run. To stay and try fighting off all the other clans is suicide.
Coming from the height of the "taint" doctrine the Vipers showed they were tainted when Ilkhan Andrews shot Adder Khan N'buta in the face which was a clear violation as no Khan was supposed to carry a weapon in the council. Hence that Clan was declared tainted which in turn earned them annihilation and unlike other annihilations this was probbaly used as a test to see who is "pure" (so if you don't participate you are tainted probably) so everyone participated. And the Vipers did serious damage to all remaining clans but in essence what you say is right. Better run then fight. The Scorpions saw the writing on the wall and left behind a last ditch defense while the main body fled. Thoguh they also had a plan already which had simply be accelerated. The Wolverines also did the same they fled rather then duke it out with the Clans (of course they left a love message by turning the then Council building and blood chapels of several Clans into lovely craters. They should have slammed the McKenna's Pride into Strana Mechty as well just to add insult to inury)
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I don't think the target Clan can actually win on the battlefield alone. The only reason the Jade Falcon versus Wolf thing went differently was because it was truly just the Falcons versus Wolves running this de fact absorption.
So let's just say for sake of discussion that a Trial of Absorption, Annihilation or Abjurment is declared. And one Clan is tasked to carry it out.
There's a decent chance they just task yet another Clan, or maybe even multiple Clans, to finish it.
........
None of the Trial types are "one and done" affairs. You can declare Trials of Possession, Grevience, Refusal, multiple times. You can vote to abjure, absorb or annihilate multiple times as well. So they just keep coming at you until you somehow convince them that the decision was wrong and that they should stop and accept/re-accept you as a Clan.
And no, there's no de facto punishment for the losers. The aggressive Clan just represented the interests of all the Clans who voted that way. There's no penalty. Except perhaps being perceived yourself as extremely weak if you lose such a Trial.
Minor points.
1. The Falcon Wolves issue wasn't any of those trials.
It was a charge against Ulric himself, who, as ilKhan/Khan, choose to defend w/ the entire Clan instead of a Star-Cluster-Galaxy, etc etc.
That decision was outside the norm.
The reason he did that was because he knew that the charge was SO heinous that even if he won, another clan would feel the need the raise the challenge again & again against him personally.
Point being, the Falcons got away w/ it because it was in the OZ away from the other Khans & also because they were essentially just claiming anyone & everyone as "bondsmen" which is legal.
The "truly iffy" part that doesn't get talked about, is all the garrison troops in the Wolf OZ & the Wolf Worlds being claimed as part of an "absorption".
Ulric claimed it was all of clan wolf attacking, but, in reality it was more like 5 Galaxies. (4 Front + 1 Garrison)
The "absorption" really never happened, it was talked about on the Falcon Capital but really, Vlad shut it down before the Wolf OZ & Homeworlds got "behind it" for the most part.
Later IIRC, after they got back to Strana Mechty, they played out the whole "this is how it happened" for the Hall of Khans.
I can't imagine all the Wolf Worlds were repainting everything Jade Green in under 1 week from Trial End to Vlad's Bloodname?
2.
In some cases, they actually can't just keep challenging over & over.
For example, the trials for Omnimechs against Coyote were limited to each clan only getting 1 Trial per Year IIRC.
To keep piling on would have been seen as dishonorable. Like killing civilians needlessly.
Other clans look down on your & then you get called into question (Widowmakers).
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All fair points on the Refusal War stuff. That situation was extremely weird and unique. Ulric's decision to devote the entire Clan to the Trial did really change the nature of what was happening. I agree that given the distances involved a lot of this probably didn't get to the Grand Council until way after it had happened in the Inner Sphere. That means as a case study in what's normal/typical, it is not a great example.
Regarding the OmniMech Trials against the Coyotes. That was also a unique situation and was given a unique setup. The other Clans wanted the Coyotes to hand over the technology. The Coyotes refused, the Trial structure that resulted was a political compromise in the Grand Council. To create some structure around a chaotic situation the Grand Council decided to allow one Trial per year per Clan for Omni-tech. The Grand Council also voted in an IlKhan, Zenos Danforth to oversee the whole thing. So that didn't happen by some kind of established default, that was the Grand Council looking at the situation, negotiating and deciding how to turn chaos into order. That precedent then became useful when Battle Armor appeared and it provided a proven way of structuring Trials for that chaotic situation. Zenos Danforth was still the IlKhan at that point and so he just kept doing what he had been doing using the same playbook that had worked out well a few years earlier.
And perhaps the biggest lesson of all here is that the Clan Grand Council never really had much established tradition behind most of these big decision points in Clan history. At times, even with the established Trials laid down by Nicholas Kerensky, they really were just making it up as they went, figuring out each new crisis/situation as it unfolded.
But I hear your point that the Clans just can't keep challenging the same Trial over and over days apart. But with something on the scale of an Absorption/Abjurement/Annihilation, you can't tolerate/survive much more than one anyway. But I stand by my point. Even if you win the first one, some kind of Refusal of that vote fought out on a battlefield that you win, and hold off the apocalypse for 6 months or a year.. you better do something, change something... get the other Clans to back off and reverse politically...or you will be screwed next year when the same Clans conduct a new vote against you and send a fresh Clan against you. You can only hold off so many fresh Clans before your battered Clan is subdued. It takes too long to breed new warriors to survive that forever.
Or as others have been said, just run away. Recognize that this is all of Clan society saying you are done and that there may not be any way to salvage the situation and remain a legitimate Clan in the eyes of proper Clan society. Try to save your people from slaughter.