Project Phoenix Mechs!

[Alexander Knight]

Not to get into the whole LAC discussion, but you can kill a man with a sharp Epee. You can't kill a barn unless its made out of cotton with a LAC.  :(

Can't use a RAC to target a specific location with AP ammo.....

[MarauderD]

I guess the inference the TRO 3085 PPhoenix entries gave me bothered me: lots of mechs seemed improved, but if it was a FedSuns design it was dumbed down: the Ostsol, Rifleman, and especially the shadow hawk 5D. The Shad was a pretty little zombie that I love. I suppose it was just personal preference!

[Youngblood]

No, you're right, LACs are bad unless you have way more tonnage than room for heat sinks.  A LAC/10 would have been a nice brawler stick, but oh well.

But you're wrong about ALL of the Davion Project Phoenix designs getting dumbed down.  A lot factions would kill to have the MAD-6D Marauder II.  The Valkyrie's not bad either, though their version got snubbed for the Taurian version in the readout.

[MarauderD]

The 6D MarauderII is fine, although I'm partial to the 4S for the light engine staying power. Am I missing something about how great the 6D is?

[Youngblood]

It's a robot that likes to play mind games.  Players that go up against it think, "Wow, that's a lot of armor!  And it jumps five hexes every turn!  Forget trying to kill that thing!  Oh, but it does a respectable amount of damage, like heavy 'Mech damage!  And it does have that XL Engine!  I can't ignore it."

It is weak to losing initiative.  That's it.

[A. Lurker]

The MAD-6D is basically a heavy 'Mech with the armor and ground speed of a slow assault. Yeah, it jumps 5 for 3 heat -- but that still at best only lets it break even on AMM vs. TMM, and if it does manage to get knocked off its feet that's at least one turn it won't be bouncing around and is apt to suddenly feel how slow it "really" is.

It's also something of a short-to-mid-range specialist; you're not altogether safe from it unless you can reliably stay out of LPPC range, but outside 9-10 hexes or any time the big bad RAC jams (another occasion that can force it to stay on the ground for a turn or two since unjam attempts preclude jumping) its threat level does drop quite a bit.

All that armor still makes it a fairly tough customer and if you let it get as close as it wants to be you deserve the spanking you're about to receive, but tonnage notwithstanding I'd personally be a bit reluctant to call it a full and proper "assault" 'Mech.

[Youngblood]

Considering how ground-bound assault 'Mechs don't really bother with moving and can only defend, I'd say the MAD-6D is better at being an assault 'Mech than assault 'Mechs are.  They can't alpha down a heavy 'Mech in a single turn, sure, but they're VERY hard to remove from any given area.  Not to mention that finding cover is as easy as hopping behind something two levels tall or landing in heavy woods!

But yeah, it has its faults, we're really just vacuumtalking here.  Just don't count that variant out!

[A. Lurker]

Well, as I see it "assault" 'Mechs are specialists in their own right. They either hold a position against all comers or they're bulldozers and siege engines that force the enemy to respond to their advance; that's about it. Both roles require mobility somewhat less than they do raw toughness and firepower preferably at both long and short range (chasing down the enemy and handling moving battles in general are jobs for other units), and while the MAD-6D has its share of the former it comes up a bit short in the latter respect.

So I'm not saying it's a bad 'Mech at all. Just that I wouldn't call it an assault one as such, 100 tons or not. ;)

[Khell]

Project Phoenix is my third-most favorite TRO in my whole collection, only slightly behind TRO-3050 Original (with the Unseen), and actually quite a distance behind 3057 (what can I say, I love space ships).

OP, love the top-to-bottom analysis of the IS designs.  Don't fully agree with all your points, but do agree with most.

IMHO the stinger and wasp are a bit of a let-down functionally (visually stunning).  I don't like rocket pods, but I did find that the Stinger miniature can be "fixed" by puttying up the launchers in the chest, then sanded flat, and it makes a real sweet chestpiece.  Take the weight to improve the main gun or electronics, and you have a much better light scout.  As a complete rebuild I put in FF and Endo, upped the ERMLas to a MPlas, and tossed a C3Slave and Targeting Comp , keeping the non-XL engine and costing only 1pt of armor over the 5R model.  For a 20T featherlight, it works awesomely as an assassin and a scout.

Don't underestimate the targeting computer in the Valkyrie.  The whole point of the design is to stay away from the enemy and pepper them with missiles, but if something is fast enough to get in close, that TC lets you knee-cap the bastard real nice.

The Ostscout is not my favorite Mech, but I do have to say it is the best case of "improving" both the original artwork and the core functionality of the design.  All the Ost Mechs were bloody hideous things (or at least I always thought so), and now at least the 'Scout and 'Roc are pretty decent looking, and the 'Scout in particular is one of the best scouts money can buy.

Lastly, the Thunderbolt...  Yeah, I'm with you, that LGauss is rather lame.  I always swap it out for an ERPPC, like any self-respecting Thunderbolt is supposed to have.

[bakija]

Don't underestimate the targeting computer in the Valkyrie.  The whole point of the design is to stay away from the enemy and pepper them with missiles, but if something is fast enough to get in close, that TC lets you knee-cap the bastard real nice.

Oh, sure. But I'm not necessarily convinced that the ERML+TC is going to be more effective than either 2xERML or an MPL in the same space and weight--I mean, it already comes with double heat sinks that it is never going to be able to take full advantage of, so I suspect that 2xERML would be more effective than a single ERML and a TC. But it isn't completely horrible or anything.

Lastly, the Thunderbolt...  Yeah, I'm with you, that LGauss is rather lame.  I always swap it out for an ERPPC, like any self-respecting Thunderbolt is supposed to have.

It does have a very nice long range and allows the Thunderbolt to seem reasonable with no extra DHS built in, and I think if you swapped out the LGR for an ERPPC and 6 more DHS, you do worse, heat wise (net gain of +2 heat). I mean, yeah, I'd probably go with the ERPPC too over the LGR, but it isn't completely out of the realm of reason.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

That particular Thunderbolt model was built back when the FWL was on its "let's stick an LGR on EVERYTHING" phase.  The other T-bolt models in that book tend to be better.  Though it's not nearly as bad as the Crusader with the HGR (though I contend that based of the Crusader's weapon loadout it was intended as a test bed for the HGR rather than an actual combat mech).

[Savage Coyote]

That T-bolt does well as a group with other LGR 'mechs and/or buddies to help out, but thats kind of a Marik battle doctrine than anything else IMHO

[Khell]

It does have a very nice long range and allows the Thunderbolt to seem reasonable with no extra DHS built in, and I think if you swapped out the LGR for an ERPPC and 6 more DHS, you do worse, heat wise (net gain of +2 heat). I mean, yeah, I'd probably go with the ERPPC too over the LGR, but it isn't completely out of the realm of reason.

The new TBolt is just the best toy to make custom models with.  Hell, my 6th Alshain have two wicked builds I've never yet lost with.

My TDR-9F (based off the 9M mini) converts that LRM-15 box into twin SRM6's (putty up the 3rd row missile ports and you have 6+6) packing 2T regular and 1T Inferno ammo.  Up to a possible 24 heat to your opponent in 1 salvo...not very nice. =)  The main gun is swapped for an ERPPC, and it still packs 3MLas in the torso.  15 double-sinks keep it nice and cool, don't want that SRM ammo cooking off.  Armor is maxed out at 211, and a regular fusion engine for longevity.

My 10F (based on the 10SE) likewise converts that mid-torso LRM-10 into a SRM6+4 duo, makes the same swap of the LGauss for the ERPPC, keeps the 3xMLas, and holds a combined 6T of SRM4/6 ammo (mix of inferno and regular).  Very similar, but for that added ammo capacity, the armor dropped to 200 even.  Likewise, regular engine.

My Unseen mercenaries and 18th Lyran likewise have their own loadout on the design.  It's just such a fun one to play with.

[SCC]

Yes, LAC's could have been MUCH BETTER

And I think that who ever did the write up for the RFL-7X Rifleman (in or out of universe) really should share what they where smoking with the rest of us, 2 LPPC's and 2 SNPPC's do not a Fire Support 'Mech make

[MarauderD]

Yes, LAC's could have been MUCH BETTER

And I think that who ever did the write up for the RFL-7X Rifleman (in or out of universe) really should share what they where smoking with the rest of us, 2 LPPC's and 2 SNPPC's do not a Fire Support 'Mech make

I thought that as well. The RFL-8D with two Rac-5s was a good looking design and I liked it, but for the lack of Case for the ammo. Range was a little short, but who wouldn't be scared of two RACs at close range?

[Youngblood]

I thought that as well. The RFL-8D with two Rac-5s was a good looking design and I liked it, but for the lack of Case for the ammo. Range was a little short, but who wouldn't be scared of two RACs at close range?

It's bad because it can only make a maximum movement mod of +2 while packing an XL Engine and only having the armor of a 60-tonner.  It is -easily- popped in unbroken terrain, and it also can't deal with jumpers that can out-jump it and Pulse it in the back for fun ammo rack events.  We'd think jumping would have given it a chance in cities, but jumping has this issue where it tends to make pilots miss, on top of the crazy jam chance you get by trying an all-out 12-shot attack like that.

Whoever did the design for the RFL-8D could have easily turned it into a 5/8/0 ambush machine with that XL Engine, but all we can do is shrug now, and play the RFL-6X instead for its stellar, if non-exciting, twin LB-10-Xs.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Just because a mech has jump jets doesn't mean you have to use them every round.

[Youngblood]

Just because a mech has jump jets doesn't mean you have to use them every round.

The problem arises when you don't use them and get outpaced by certain Banshees, Berserkers, Warlords, Peacekeepers, etc.

edit: vvv corrected post above, thanks

[SCC]

Whoever did the design for the RFL-8D could have easily turned it into a 5/8/0 ambush machine with that XL Engine, but all we can do is shrug now, and play the RFL-7X instead for its stellar, if non-exciting, twin LB-10-Xs.

I think you mean the -6X, the -7X was the one whose fluff I was complaining about (2 LPPCs and 2 SNPPCs)

[MarauderD]

It's bad because it can only make a maximum movement mod of +2 while packing an XL Engine and only having the armor of a 60-tonner.  It is -easily- popped in unbroken terrain, and it also can't deal with jumpers that can out-jump it and Pulse it in the back for fun ammo rack events.  We'd think jumping would have given it a chance in cities, but jumping has this issue where it tends to make pilots miss, on top of the crazy jam chance you get by trying an all-out 12-shot attack like that.

If we all didn't enjoy playing suboptimal mechs once in a while, in wouldn't be Battletech. Last game I used my 8D, I hid her back in the treeline while a couple different mechs duked it out. As soon as my holepunchers had done some effective work, I'd move the 8D into the clear and firehose down some crits. Ended up with 2 kills for the 8D, used all the ammo up, and only jammed 3x on a company sized engagement.

Besides, I think the 8D is pretty sexy looking!

[Youngblood]

Besides, I think the 8D is pretty sexy looking!

It was pretty much the first 'Mech I bought a mini of on looks alone.  Giant dakka guns and overhanging double-hood of questionable utility for great justice!