Trueborn VS Freeborn

[Mad Monkey]

Now after reading several articles about the Clans , I can understand why Kerensky wanted more people . But by doing so Kerensky created a caste system that may have negative results some time in the future . I can see the Freeborn revolting against the Trueborn and splitting the Clans .  If it was Kerensky dream to return the Star League to the planets then he and his off springs such of ( my thoughts ) used the idea of one supreme leader and kept to the original Star League military structure .

[Colt Ward]

Couple things . . . the caste system came about before the iron wombs.  Kerensky was wanting to abolish all traces of the old societies for his re-ordering.

As far as Freeborn vs Trueborn . . . they exercise a special method of control to separate the wolves from the freebirth sheep.  Those with aggression are recruited into the freebirth warrior programs, where they either wash out, die in training or become part of the system.  Depending on the Clan they have a limited career path.

But several times you have had Clan forces massacre uppity lower castemen who question them too much or show hints of rebellion.  Most recently the Falcon's slaughter of their scientists in the IS.

[Fireangel]

And do not forget that trueborns who wash out of the warrior programs do join the lower castes, and are part of the lower caste breeding programs.

[Deadborder]

There was a Freeborn revolt; the Society uprising. That ended well for all involved.

[Fireangel]

There was a Freeborn revolt; the Society uprising. That ended well for all involved.

I would not call it a “Freeborn revolt”, particularly with the large number of trueborn scientists involved.

[Sjhernan3060]

Silly question but do Trueborns have belly buttons? I mean they are vat grown so would they have had umbilical cords?

[Jaim Magnus]

Nutrients have to enter the body somewhere. So they probably do.

[Achtung Minen!]

Caste systems are actually notoriously resilient, historically speaking. But anyway, it's worth keeping in mind that Clan society is not just caste-based, but more importantly socialist. There is no private property and there is no currency. Everyone is paid the same way, in work credits, and get resources according to their needs (so a labourer will get many more calories of foodstuffs than an accountant). You cannot hoard money (because it doesn't exist), you do not inherit, and success in the society is based on merit.

Those are significant factors for reducing the incidents of social unrest.

[Orwell84]

Silly question but do Trueborns have belly buttons? I mean they are vat grown so would they have had umbilical cords?

Judging by this image from the Jade Falcon sourcebook, it looks like there's multiple cords of some kind used.

Caste systems are actually notoriously resilient, historically speaking. But anyway, it's worth keeping in mind that Clan society is not just caste-based, but more importantly socialist. There is no private property and there is no currency. Everyone is paid the same way, in work credits, and get resources according to their needs (so a labourer will get many more calories of foodstuffs than an accountant). You cannot hoard money (because it doesn't exist), you do not inherit, and success in the society is based on merit.

Merit plus having the right ancestors, at least as far as the warrior caste is concerned. Phelan Kell noted that one of the ironies of this system is that Kerensky's intended meritocracy turned into a lineage-based rulership in each Clan.

The mistake the Clans collectively made here, IMHO, was in blindly exalting youthful trueborn superiority rather than acknowledging the advantages experience and freeborn 'randomness' could bring if added to the mix. In somebody's alternate universe Andery Kerensky creates a Trial of Propagation or such where non-800 worthies could establish their own bloodname and bloodhouse (Ethan Moreau being the first). An outlet like that for gifted freeborns could add fresh genetic material and motivate both types into performing better on the battlefield.

As to Clan civilians, perhaps Kerensky would have done better to promote his warriors as 'first among equals' and tiebreakers rather than supreme lords over all, and given scientists, merchants, etc some real decision-making power. A government like the post-Blackout Rasalhague Dominion has a stable mix of trueborn and freeborn warriors plus civilians, whereas the Clan Homeworlds had freeborn revolts of one kind or another every time disaster rocked the delicate socialist economy and the warriors reacted poorly to civilian concerns.

[truetanker]

Silly question but do Trueborns have belly buttons? I mean they are vat grown so would they have had umbilical cords?

Hey Trothkin! You an Inny or an Outty, quiaff?

TT

[Decoy]

I think Cray answered this one and the answer he gave was that why mess with perfectly fine engineering? Yes, clans have belly buttons. Why change the umbilical cord set up for no real gain?

[marauder648]

Don't forget that the Clans also put artificial constraints on themselves.  The Iron Wombs would allow the Clans to have a massive population, and if they had allowed themselves to explore they could have no doubt found more worlds to support themselves rather than seeming to want to temper themselves of a crucible of harsh worlds in the Pentagon and Kerensky cluster.  I can't remember what thread it was but someone wrote out a brilliant (and if I recall IC) post about the Clans and what Kerensky intended for the SLDF, that it was in essence a death sentence, that he had struck off to the north with no plan and no destination in mind and that basically the idea was that the SLDF would die off.  If was written as a conspiracy theory but it was superb :)

[Phantom000]

One question I have is what is the ratio of treueborn to freeborn in the clans? I guess it would vary from clan to clan but I thought the trueborn were actually a minority among the clans. The idea that the clans are primarily trueborn is a misconception because the first clanners to enter the IS were mostly trueborn. I imagined that even for Smoke Jaguar, most of their civilians were freeborn with a handful of trueborns who failed their trial of position.

Is that true or am i just crazy?

[AlphaMirage]

While we are unlikely to ever get numbers I would say prior to the invasion the Freeborn population was likely 85% at any given time. Post invasion it's likely 97-98% for the Sphere clans due to the immense populations of their occupied zones in relation to the homeworlds. Even in the homeworlds post WoR it probably went to 92% after the Society wiped out many warriors with their bioweapons

[Colt Ward]

One question I have is what is the ratio of treueborn to freeborn in the clans? I guess it would vary from clan to clan but I thought the trueborn were actually a minority among the clans. The idea that the clans are primarily trueborn is a misconception because the first clanners to enter the IS were mostly trueborn. I imagined that even for Smoke Jaguar, most of their civilians were freeborn with a handful of trueborns who failed their trial of position.

Is that true or am i just crazy?

Thing is, it is not a handful who are re-assigned . . . it is a handful of warriors who finish the training program.  Even accounting for casualties, IMO at least half of each sibko washes out especially when you consider the program is from birth to Trial of Position.  I would suggest that by age 7, 10-20% have already washed out, another 30% or more by 12 when the more intensive training begins like operating the equipment for real rather than just military training.  So by the time they actually start putting sibkos in mechs, VTOL or CF, vehicles, or Battle Armor they have already weeded out those who were not aggressive, competitive, intelligent/cunning, or physically coordinated enough (you go through a bad clumsy stage?  well . . . ) to be expected to perform.

I know we have had sibko graduation requirements where numbers were tossed about- IIRC one was something like 5k warriors a year, mostly Elementals.  Now consider at best that is 10% of each overall sibko graduating . . . and that means at lowest you have 20k new civilians a year- IF we are assuming 50% of each sibko are training deaths.  Not just things like killed in live fire training, hand to hand training, or other combat specific tasks but sibkos would also lose say 10 year olds to exposure during survival or landnav training.  Maybe the sibko lost Johnnie because he ran into a Smoke Jaguar on Huntress during land nav training in the jungle.  Or Jill fell from the top of the obstacle course and broke her neck.  Considering that at most a sibko probably loses 10-30% of it's grouping to actual training deaths, and you end up with a higher number of new civies created each year . . . though THEIR children will be freeborns.

[RifleMech]

I think the Iron Wombs were; to not only increase the size of the Warrior Cast quickly but selective breeding on a mass scale and to to keep warriors from having to go on maternity leave.  The alternative was to turn the female warriors into broodmares which would cause all kinds of problems.

Also I believe the Trueborn being superior to Freeborn thing developed over time. I don't think it was there originally.

[Metallgewitter]

Thing is, it is not a handful who are re-assigned . . . it is a handful of warriors who finish the training program.  Even accounting for casualties, IMO at least half of each sibko washes out especially when you consider the program is from birth to Trial of Position.  I would suggest that by age 7, 10-20% have already washed out, another 30% or more by 12 when the more intensive training begins like operating the equipment for real rather than just military training.  So by the time they actually start putting sibkos in mechs, VTOL or CF, vehicles, or Battle Armor they have already weeded out those who were not aggressive, competitive, intelligent/cunning, or physically coordinated enough (you go through a bad clumsy stage?  well . . . ) to be expected to perform.

I know we have had sibko graduation requirements where numbers were tossed about- IIRC one was something like 5k warriors a year, mostly Elementals.  Now consider at best that is 10% of each overall sibko graduating . . . and that means at lowest you have 20k new civilians a year- IF we are assuming 50% of each sibko are training deaths.  Not just things like killed in live fire training, hand to hand training, or other combat specific tasks but sibkos would also lose say 10 year olds to exposure during survival or landnav training.  Maybe the sibko lost Johnnie because he ran into a Smoke Jaguar on Huntress during land nav training in the jungle.  Or Jill fell from the top of the obstacle course and broke her neck.  Considering that at most a sibko probably loses 10-30% of it's grouping to actual training deaths, and you end up with a higher number of new civies created each year . . . though THEIR children will be freeborns.

There is also to consider that this varies from Clan to Clan. For example Clan Blood Spirit and Clan Steel Viper can have sibkos where NONE of the children graduate to become warriors. And the Horses allow their "failures" to take a second test to still be part of the warrior caste but in a "lesser" position i.e. driver in a tank or simple infantry.

And the divide certainly came way after Nicolas death. The sourcebook for Operation Klondike states in a scientific report that not all vat grown babies survived in the iron womb. It took time to be perfected and later they used those same technology to "purify" the genes (removing illnesses and making the born babies tougher). War of Reaving hints that trueborn warriors are basically immune to common illness unless you push them to the breaking point like the Hellions did with their attack on the Falcon OZ.

[Intermittent_Coherence]

Now after reading several articles about the Clans , I can understand why Kerensky wanted more people .

Like anybody who ever thought up a caste system it's not about having more people so much as having more of the right people. People of the right lineage and training/indoctrination.

Judging by this image from the Jade Falcon sourcebook, it looks like there's multiple cords of some kind used.

Merit plus having the right ancestors, at least as far as the warrior caste is concerned. Phelan Kell noted that one of the ironies of this system is that Kerensky's intended meritocracy turned into a lineage-based rulership in each Clan.

The mistake the Clans collectively made here, IMHO, was in blindly exalting youthful trueborn superiority rather than acknowledging the advantages experience and freeborn 'randomness' could bring if added to the mix. In somebody's alternate universe Andery Kerensky creates a Trial of Propagation or such where non-800 worthies could establish their own bloodname and bloodhouse (Ethan Moreau being the first). An outlet like that for gifted freeborns could add fresh genetic material and motivate both types into performing better on the battlefield.

As to Clan civilians, perhaps Kerensky would have done better to promote his warriors as 'first among equals' and tiebreakers rather than supreme lords over all, and given scientists, merchants, etc some real decision-making power. A government like the post-Blackout Rasalhague Dominion has a stable mix of trueborn and freeborn warriors plus civilians, whereas the Clan Homeworlds had freeborn revolts of one kind or another every time disaster rocked the delicate socialist economy and the warriors reacted poorly to civilian concerns.

That presumes Kerensky was about anything other than him and those loyal to him and all their descendants staying on top. He wasn't. The entire point of a caste system is to perpetuate the rule of a select few. His idea of meritocracy only extended towards vertical advancement along the professions possible within one's own caste. By creating a trueborn warrior caste his society will always have at its head one with the correct lineage...

[Colt Ward]

The entire point of a caste system is to perpetuate the rule of a select few. His idea of meritocracy only extended towards vertical advancement along the professions possible within one's own caste. By creating a trueborn warrior caste his society will always have at its head one with the correct lineage...

Which is true of most systems, and especially 'established' systems- let's not pretend it is unique to this one instance.

[Intermittent_Coherence]

Which is true of most systems, and especially 'established' systems- let's not pretend it is unique to this one instance.

Simply pointing out that the presence of one colors any claims that Nicky K was out to establish a meritocracy. He might well have been, but only within the strictures of the caste system.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Caste systems are actually notoriously resilient, historically speaking. But anyway, it's worth keeping in mind that Clan society is not just caste-based, but more importantly socialist. There is no private property and there is no currency. Everyone is paid the same way, in work credits, and get resources according to their needs (so a labourer will get many more calories of foodstuffs than an accountant). You cannot hoard money (because it doesn't exist), you do not inherit, and success in the society is based on merit.

Those are significant factors for reducing the incidents of social unrest.

I realize that this is an old post, but the Clans are not socialist.  They're closer to communism due to having a planned economy run by the government, but ultimately the fact that the Clans have a rigid caste system means that they can't be either.

[Metallgewitter]

I realize that this is an old post, but the Clans are not socialist.  They're closer to communism due to having a planned economy run by the government, but ultimately the fact that the Clans have a rigid caste system means that they can't be either.

Imho the Clans come closer to socialism then communism. They don't have a planned economy per se since they usually produce what they need in the needed quantity. Planned economy is more like a fixed plan without adjustments. The Foxes / Sharks are the exception since they produce more with which to bargain for other resources. But in essence the Clans are very socialistic since the collective is more important then the individual (here the exception are the Blood Spirits who allow their Clan members a great deal of individuality). And the general exception could be those Trueborn who earn a blood name who then serve as a kind of paragon to which the masses can aspire to. 

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

In multiple sourcebooks and novels, it's shown that the Clans regularly give production quotas that the labor caste is expected to meet, regardless of circumstances.  Planned economy.

Secondly, the Clans still operate on a caste system that places warriors at the top, followed by scientists, technicians, merchants, and laborers.  A few Clans give better status to the lower castes than the norm, but there's still a caste system.  Not compatible with communism or socialism.

And the trueborn with a bloodname is not a paragon that the masses can aspire to be, since most of the people in the Clan are freeborn who won't be allowed to become warriors and even if they do, won't be allowed to compete for a bloodname barring very, very exceptional circumstances.

[AlphaMirage]

It is very much a Diarchy Authoritarian dictatorship (Khan, SaKhan) with a supporting Stratocracy (of Warrior caste in all forms). The lower caste Factors (Senior Laborer, Scientist-General, etc...) are merely there to transfer the orders of the leadership to the masses and report on shortages that the Warriors then Trial for. More Sparta then Stalin with the same amount of brutality inherent in the system.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Well put.

[Cannonshop]

Imho the Clans come closer to socialism then communism. They don't have a planned economy per se since they usually produce what they need in the needed quantity. Planned economy is more like a fixed plan without adjustments. The Foxes / Sharks are the exception since they produce more with which to bargain for other resources. But in essence the Clans are very socialistic since the collective is more important then the individual (here the exception are the Blood Spirits who allow their Clan members a great deal of individuality). And the general exception could be those Trueborn who earn a blood name who then serve as a kind of paragon to which the masses can aspire to.

Not really.  The problem with 'on demand' production is when you need something you can't just shit out on demand-like foodstuffs. (See: Londerholm).  The Clans are absolutely a command-based, central-planning economy-but thanks to space-magic and the FANTASY nature of Battletech, they didn't do what REAL systems configured like theirs have historically done (Starve to death and ossify after the first few years due to a lack of free market to parasitize off of). 

They're NOT a Meritocracy, as your 'merit' is determined by your birth among the Clans, and even in the liberal ones, if you're not both a Trueborn, AND a warrior, you're a second class subject at the best of times.  (citizens are allowed to take care of themselves, Subjects are ruled and cared for as the livestock they really are.)

the Clans are a caste-based SLAVE society, in which human beings are owned and traded like any other resource, the only modification being that in the case of the Clans, the ownership is collective as opposed to individual-the serfs are owned by the State, and traded as any other piece of the real-estate such as buildings or equipment, bought and sold, used as currency in gambling and so on.

Essentially the worst features of Feudalism and Socialism wrapped up in fancy sounding terminology integrated with Serfdom as practiced in the pre-revolutionary Russian Empire and integrated with 19th century ideas on Eugenics (that have subsequently been disproven in the real world).

That said, the closest model to the Clan system is Maoist communism as practiced by Pol Pot, but integrating the economics of Stalin and the ethics of that austrian painter who won some elections in Germany in the 1930s, but with a prettier sounding public relations campaign.

In short, not a place any sane person would actually WANT to live.

[Decoy]

So, still better than the Capellan Confederation and the Draconis Combine, eh?

No. I am not joking. Any fault you find with the Clans you find in spades with those two nations. I would say the only reason they haven't had artificial procreation yet is because they hadn't thought of it and had access to the numbers needed to make it a moot point.

[SteveRestless]

I think the Iron Wombs were; to not only increase the size of the Warrior Cast quickly but selective breeding on a mass scale and to to keep warriors from having to go on maternity leave.  The alternative was to turn the female warriors into broodmares which would cause all kinds of problems.

Also I believe the Trueborn being superior to Freeborn thing developed over time. I don't think it was there originally.

Originally, the intent was for the non-warrior castes to never have to experience the horrors of war, by mass producing warriors who would not have family to be heartbroken at their loss, and for whom death would not be an end, but a natural part of their new process of procreation. Warrior supremacy is a corruption of this.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Where was that stated?

[Colt Ward]

Uh, that is not why trueborns were created . . . the Trial system was supposed to prevent the horrors of war from touching the lower caste- you know cities being fought through, civvies getting hit by stray weapons fire, homes & businesses being turned to rubble, etc.

But the only hint you get about why the trueborn program was pushed was to break down old familial bonds, just as they were breaking down the old 'tribe' of the Houses for the new of Clans.