IS Omni-mechs...A dead end?

[StCptMara]

In another thread, a poster brought out that his players wanted to use the WoB Celestials not
because of any of the reasons we might think...but because they actually used the stuff that the
IS had for their chassis that cannot be refitted in: TSM, Light Engines, Compact or Heavy Duty Gyros,
even a Compact engine.

What makes this stand out to me is that, the Inner Sphere has not been putting further development into
OmniMechs. The Celestials stood out to a group of players because, really, they were the 3rd Generation IS
OmniMechs. Where are the other 3rd Generation OmniMechs? No-where. We see the IS producing its second
generation of Omni-fighters, and even its 3rd Generation of Omni Vehicles now, and the 1st Generation Omni
Support-Vehicle...but it seems like OmniMechs in the Inner Sphere have become a developmental dead-end.

[Orin J.]

i think it's more the whole point of omnimechs really. why keep building more new omni designs when the existing omnis are able to fill so many roles as-is? there's really very little reason to go back every couple of years and rebuild something as complicated and an omnimech when you can simply market a new weaposn configuration instead.

also, i think there was some kinda production problem with the factories tooled for producing them that hampered the development chances on new omni designs in the sphere...

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

If and when RS:3067 unabridged is released, we might actually get to see omnified versions of the Argus and Thanatos.

[Dirk Bastion]

It's a bloody damn shame, that's what it is. I like several of the Omnis (especially the Avatar and the look of the Owens) and I'd really like some more.

But, if they all used Omnis all of a sudden, you wouldn't have enough material for new TROs.

[Davion_Boy_74]

If and when RS:3067 unabridged is released, we might actually get to see omnified versions of the Argus and Thanatos.

OH Yes Please I can but live in hope  [rockon].

Dave.

[StCptMara]

It's a bloody damn shame, that's what it is. I like several of the Omnis (especially the Avatar and the look of the Owens) and I'd really like some more.

But, if they all used Omnis all of a sudden, you wouldn't have enough material for new TROs.

Not really.

You see, the Inner Sphere made its first Generation Omni's, some(the Raptor, the Black Hawk KU, the Avatar, the Sunder) were pretty good. However, they also showed the uncertainty of the IS using the technologies. Fixed systems because the IS wanted
something it "knew would work"(the Avatar's mediums) or because they did not understand the idea of not locking something
into a single role(the Owens EW equipment).

From the lessons learned in these, we got the second generation, one per House(except Kurita), Omnis.  These improved upon,
and, really, were the first truly mature OmniMechs. Each one demonstrated something of an improvement. The Perseus showed
that one could make a non-omni design Omni, in fact, while the Men Shen was a much better recon platform then the Owens, and
a better combat platform then the Strider. The Hauptman was the the Sunder-Killer for the title of the "best Inner Sphere Assault
Omni", and the Templar proved a well laid out machine for using all the new Davion toys.

And that is where the Inner Sphere stopped. The Word of Blake developed their Celestials, and used things that the rest of the Inner
Sphere hadn't, because it had not been developed yet. However, even with the Celestials using things like light fusion engines, advanced gyros, and even TSM, they failed to fully push the envelope. Why not a Stealth Armoured OmniMech? How about something using Heavy Ferro Fibrous? What about an advanced tech light or heavy OmniMech? What about potential upgrades to the original
1st Generation Omnis? Why did the IS STOP developing this technology for 'mechs, but focus it for vehicles? The Inner Sphere, now, has more OmniVehicles then the Clans....but, yet, each house(except Kurita) has only 1 OmniMech to call its own. Why has Kurita not
developed a new OmniMech, in fact?

[Leonard Kerensky]

it seems like OmniMechs in the Inner Sphere have become a developmental dead-end.

Snip!

lets keep in mind something rather important. the Inner Sphere is still new to the whole idea of the omni-chassis. be it mech, aerofighter, vehicle, suport vehicle, heads of state, or even the toaster on the back of the kitchen counter.

now ask yourself this. how long exactly did it take the Clans to develop their 2nd generation Omnimechs? Areo Fighters might progress faster mostly because they have a faster genesis from drawing board to prototype to production. the same can be said for vehicles. but not so for mechs. mech take thought. they take time to prove what a design's faults and shortcomings are. they take time to prove where and when they perform best. then there is the tried and true.. the inner sphere just likes it's one off designs a little too much.

also, keep in mind that the entire reason omni-chasis exisit is because the clans had limited resources and needed to make the most out of everything they had. not the same for the inner sphere.

[Leonard Kerensky]

why keep building more new omni designs when the existing omnis are able to fill so many roles as-is? there's really very little reason to go back every couple of years and rebuild something as complicated and an omnimech when you can simply market a new weaposn configuration instead.

Snip!

personaly i think the Innersphere as far as it omnimechs go are still in the 'we haven't yet found a role these mechs can't perform in that a one-off design can't do better' stage of the production. with the exception of the wobble celestials howmany configurations are there for each of the inner sphere omni's? pretty sure they are up to the G's on most configuration designations and might even be past that on some. that is alot of configurations.

[Leonard Kerensky]

If and when RS:3067 unabridged is released, we might actually get to see omnified versions of the Argus and Thanatos.

do not forgetthe Chimera also. .. if memory serves, it was also ment to be an omni-mech but failed during it's proto-typing as the thanotos did.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

In the Hauptmann's defense, I think adding anything except for maybe a heavy-duty gyro kind of defeats the purpose of the design.

[StCptMara]

In the Hauptmann's defense, I think adding anything except for maybe a heavy-duty gyro kind of defeats the purpose of the design.

I can agree there...the Hauptmann is the Inner Sphere's Dire Wolf: The premier Assault OmniMech.

[Dirk Bastion]

Not really.

Okay, apparently my thinking was too shallow. I will rectify this.

Why has Kurita not
developed a new OmniMech, in fact?

Good question. I think a reworked Dragon would be a good base, myself. Plus, instant prestige.

[Sigma]

In previous discussions on this topic, wasn't the answer usually "Look at the canon IS people who have omnis. What did they do with them? They made one configuration they liked and used it in every battle. So if that mindset is extrapolated to the majority of IS mechwarriors, what's the point of omni's over standard battlemechs that have been customized or field refitted?'

[Taurevanime]

I think a big reason for the lack of omnimechs is all the wars that erupted. Following Operation Bulldog and Serpent when the Inner Sphere for the first time really used their own omnimechs, we get the FedCom civil war. And many TRO entries for mechs that enter production in that period is that they were intended as Omnis, but the increased cost prohibited the governments from picking them up as such.
Totally forgetting the fact for a second that turning a mech into an omnimech is less expensive than turning a standard engine into an XL. I think we can assume it more than likely had to do with factory retooling being needed to produce omnimechs that made governments decide not, and instead produce as many machines as they possibly could in as short a time as possible.

And what happens after the FedCom Civil War? We get the Jihad, yet more conflict in which many factories actually get damaged or destroyed. Making it even more difficult to try and start producing omnimechs.
Following the Jihad was of course the right time to start retooling factories to be capable of making omnimechs, but with Stone's plans and most of the Inner Sphere getting on board and moving into more peacetime focused economy, that opportunity was wasted.

Getting to the 3130s everything is possible of course, though I imagine most factions favouring for continued production over retooling yet again.


Now as to why fighters and vehicles are being turned onto omnitech and mechs are not. One could argue that it is perhaps a lot easier for fighters and vehicles to be turned into omnitech, they have far less locations that need to be turned omni-capable. We also know that at least in the case of the former FedCom worlds that the reason why they did produce omni-vehicles despite calling omnimechs too expensive, was because vehicles had a budget separate of that for mech acquisition.


Anyway looking back to the future. I hope that every faction starts producing an omnimech of their own for every weight class.
I also wonder how the rest view the idea of turning the classic faction designs like the FedSun's Enforcer and the CapCon's Vindicator into omnimechs, much like how the Perseus is an omni version of the Orion.

[Leonard Kerensky]

In previous discussions on this topic, wasn't the answer usually "Look at the canon IS people who have omnis. What did they do with them? They made one configuration they liked and used it in every battle. So if that mindset is extrapolated to the majority of IS mechwarriors, what's the point of omni's over standard battlemechs that have been customized or field refitted?'

this is one of the reasons i feel that inner sphere Omni-mechs are not going to get past their 'we are still feeling these machines out' stage. ... to many mechwarriors go with a given configuration and stick with it because they aren't used to the freedoms an Omni Chassis grants.

[Stormfury]

I think it is actually more because each Inner Sphere Lance/Company (sometimes even Battalion) is set up for a specific kind of battlefield role. So when the Scout lance gets a Raptor, guess what they will set it up for?

The Clans, however, have fewer organisational units and the delineation in units is more along lines of speed than expected role.

In the end, the benefit for the Clans is being able to rapidly configure not just a single machine but entire Stars, Trinaries, and Clusters to fit the tactics they want to use. The Inner Sphere is approaching it from the opposite direction, so the benefit for them is being able to deploy a base chassis across multiple units.

Unfortunately, when you're doing that you may as well just run off variants on an existing or new standard 'Mech.

From an OOC perspective, it would be sensible for militaries to centralise around a fast (6/9+) light Omni, a standard (5/8) medium Omni, and standard (4/6 and 3/5 respectively) Heavy and Assault Omnis, as these can then handle the bulk of the roles standard 'Mechs in those classes are tasked with. The chassis can then be configured as appropriate to the unit in question, with the remainder of forces being standard 'Mechs that are built as real specialists.

In character, there is a lot of inertia, in addition to the above reasons, that they never caught on.

As for second-generation Draconis Combine OmniMechs, the storyline focused almost exclusively on the Federated Commonwealth during the 3050-3067 era under FASA and FanPro. There was only one TR after 3060, and it was basically TR: FedCom Civil War With Hints For The Jihad And We're Reprinting The Field Manual Designs Here Too. The next TR is in the chaos of the Jihad, and as noted everyone is scrambling to stay afloat, with varying degrees of success.

[Deadborder]

I've oft considered that a Stealth Armour Omnimech would be counter-intuitive to the whole concept. While Stealth Armour is effective no questions asked, it's not for every battlefield role, something that runs counter to an Omnimech design. A Stealth Omni could do some things well, but would either end up beign shoe-horned int ocertain roles or carrying around armour that was worthless in others.

[cray]

lets keep in mind something rather important. the Inner Sphere is still new to the whole idea of the omni-chassis. be it mech, aerofighter, vehicle, suport vehicle, heads of state, or even the toaster on the back of the kitchen counter.

Of course, the Clans went pretty dead-end, too. They had a great idea (the omnimech: fill many roles with a few designs), but then never used it. Instead, they kept making new designs. When they need a specialist role in a star, they don't reconfigure an existing omni. Instead, they give a warrior a different omni and build their stars and binaries and trinaries out of many, many different designs.

[Moonsword]

The Avatar's medium lasers are stated in TRO3058U as being fixed there because of an unresolved fire control glitch.  Fortunately, it's a very useful couple of weapons to have there, so most people don't really mind, but this isn't something the IS did deliberately for reliability.

Part of the reason the IS hasn't gone to OmniMechs is the constant need for more 'Mechs.  The Omnis were frequently routed to elite (or loyal, particularly in the Templar's case) formations and then frequently chewed up as those formations got pounded on.  The factories have been hit in a lot of cases.  There simply hasn't been time to produce them in the numbers necessary.  Beyond that, Omni factories are harder to establish, so once the Jihad hit and it was "I need factories now!" time, they wouldn't have had the priority assigned to normal BattleMech factories.  They aren't necessarily a dead end but the situation hasn't been amenable to their establishment in the 'Mech ecosystem as it were.

[Klat]

Thanks StCptMara, I'm really happy to see a thread on this topic without the arguments that got mine locked.

I've been giving this some thought lately as well as chatting with the players in my group and I think I'm beginning to feel their frustration. Omnis are supposedly the next step in mech design, and they give players a chance to field custom configs without building a whole new mech. Yet the IS, for all of its innovations has yet to show any updated Omni Mechs beyond the (apparently verboten) Celestials.

I would love to see Omni versions of some of the Phoenix designs. The venerable Marauder has numerous variants; an Omni version would make a lot of sense IMHO. If not the Marauder then either the Thunderbolt or a 70 tonner that can act as a Warhammer or Archer without the delicate XL engine of the Avatar.

I think what makes the Celestials cool is the fact that many use structural components that the Clans don't get such as TSM and advanced gyros. Most IS structural components have an "also ran" feeling to them; sure you can have XL engines and Endo Steel like the Clans, but they're so bulky or fragile that most Omnis start to have a tough go of it. TSM can give IS Omnis a serious edge (with some serious drawbacks) and advanced gyros can make a lot of sense depending on application (XL for light mechs, Heavy Duty for heavies etc.) and allow IS Omnis to be effective and unique.

[Peacemaker]

From an out of character perspective, Omni's were a pretty dumb idea to begin with. FASA/Catalyst/whoever has the license needs to sell TROs, and with Omnis, you don't need to built new 'mechs. Frankly, I think it would have been much cooler and more logical to give the Clans unique armor and guns, like stealth armor and plasma cannons.

[Moonsword]

I honestly am not that bothered by the issue.  Comparing IS tech to its direct Clan equivalents, it's always going to come up short, so that's really not a concern I have to begin with.

More specifically, the Celestials benefit by being the first IS Omnis designed since most of the Inner Sphere's more distinctive technology proliferated and were deployed at a time most of the other factions were too busy pushing hardware out the door to divert resources to constructing brand new Omnis of any type.  We may see a generation in the next TRO that applies these lessons more readily.  The existing frames have historical reasons for being what they are and that really means something to me - it makes taking them adapting them with modern hardware that much more interesting than just building a new chassis.  In fact, they're getting just that if you look at some of the new configurations emerging in RS3058 Unabridged or RS3085U ONN.

[scatcat]

Of course, the Clans went pretty dead-end, too. They had a great idea (the omnimech: fill many roles with a few designs), but then never used it. Instead, they kept making new designs. When they need a specialist role in a star, they don't reconfigure an existing omni. Instead, they give a warrior a different omni and build their stars and binaries and trinaries out of many, many different designs.

Makes no sense in-universe, but Catalyst's gotta sell TROs and IWM minis. I consider omnimech irrelevancy a bargain price for Battletech's continued solvency.

[Klat]

From an out of character perspective, Omni's were a pretty dumb idea to begin with. FASA/Catalyst/whoever has the license needs to sell TROs, and with Omnis, you don't need to built new 'mechs. Frankly, I think it would have been much cooler and more logical to give the Clans unique armor and guns, like stealth armor and plasma cannons.

That's a really good point right there, and TBH one I hadn't really thought of. If there were an optimized (or close to it) Omni for each of the weight classes no one would have any reason to buy new TROs...

Thanks Peacemaker, such a thought never occurred to me. Your point settles much the issue for me oddly enough.

I honestly am not that bothered by the issue.  Comparing IS tech to its direct Clan equivalents, it's always going to come up short, so that's really not a concern I have to begin with.

More specifically, the Celestials benefit by being the first IS Omnis designed since most of the Inner Sphere's more distinctive technology proliferated and were deployed at a time most of the other factions were too busy pushing hardware out the door to divert resources to constructing brand new Omnis of any type.  We may see a generation in the next TRO that applies these lessons more readily.  The existing frames have historical reasons for being what they are and that really means something to me - it makes taking them adapting them with modern hardware that much more interesting than just building a new chassis.  In fact, they're getting just that if you look at some of the new configurations emerging in RS3058 Unabridged or RS3085U ONN.

The Clan tech to IS tech thing only bothers me because the IS isn't using the new tech that makes it unique yet. However, you make a very valid point that the Celestials are the first Omnis since this new tech proliferated. The time frame for these technologies to proliferate is something I often don't consider, and I really should; complaining that I don't have canon Omnis with the new toys right now is probably very premature. I'd also like to add that while I don't have RS3058U I do have RS3085U ONN and I'm really happy with it, there are some fun and very welcome units in there and I agree it is fun to see how they've been adapted to new technologies.

[Moonsword]

There's a range of experimental configurations in RS3058 Unabridged and they also slipped in the Clantech configurations from one of the old scenario packs (The Dragon Roars) that date back to Operation Bird-Dog.

[Arkansas Warrior]

As for second-generation Draconis Combine OmniMechs, the storyline focused almost exclusively on the Federated Commonwealth during the 3050-3067 era under FASA and FanPro. There was only one TR after 3060, and it was basically TR: FedCom Civil War With Hints For The Jihad And We're Reprinting The Field Manual Designs Here Too. The next TR is in the chaos of the Jihad, and as noted everyone is scrambling to stay afloat, with varying degrees of success.

Or maybe it was the fact that they already produced all the 1st Gen omnis.  The Combine has 8 native-designed and locally produced omnis.  The other factions have one native design each, plus some licensed or purchased Combine Omnis.  No other faction produces omnis in every weight class.  The 'focus factions' each produce an assault omni, and the LA license-builds Firestarter-Os and Black Hawk-KUs.  Together they only produce half the omni designs the Combine does.  When you add in the fact that there's little difference between the better 1st gen omnis(Sunder and BHKU frex) and 2nd gen omnis, there's really no need for the Combine to have a 2nd gen omni.  Not that I'd mind if they 2nd gen-ed a Strider II with DHS, for example.

[Rorke]

Some good points made.  I honestly do not quite know what i think about Omnis.  Seeing as i confess, i tend to find a config i like and stay with it.

The only real innovation for my experience is the ability to use a variant i like that's perhaps not one originally listed.  Such as the Templar Grayson for example.  But asides that, do we think carrying around the modular bits to reconfigure several omnis, is that helpful to our logistical train?  I mean if anything it adds complexity when perhaps we really seek simplicity.

[RGCavScout]

Some good points made.  I honestly do not quite know what i think about Omnis.  Seeing as i confess, i tend to find a config i like and stay with it.

The only real innovation for my experience is the ability to use a variant i like that's perhaps not one originally listed.  Such as the Templar Grayson for example.  But asides that, do we think carrying around the modular bits to reconfigure several omnis, is that helpful to our logistical train?  I mean if anything it adds complexity when perhaps we really seek simplicity.

I am in mostly the same boat as you, good sir.  The only other possible advantage omnimechs have in my experience is their ability to carry battlearmor.

[Hellraiser]

Jihad tended to put development on hold.

By the time its over and the stoner age begins I'm sure we will see each house put out another Omni.


I'm sure the FedSuns will get a Fixed TC like the Warhawk or maybe TSM or LFFA
And the Cappies will have a Stealth Omni.
The Lyrans will use...oh.... I don't know..... a compact gyro or HFFA.
The Mariks will use ..... well..... what will the Mariks use ?   MASC maybe or XL gyro.
Kurita will finally get something that uses DHS & Endo on the same chassis for a "Good" design.

Point is they will probably all make at least 1 new omni and it will get a new toy flavor.

[Moonsword]

The only real innovation for my experience is the ability to use a variant i like that's perhaps not one originally listed.  Such as the Templar Grayson for example.  But asides that, do we think carrying around the modular bits to reconfigure several omnis, is that helpful to our logistical train?  I mean if anything it adds complexity when perhaps we really seek simplicity.

If your logistical train can handle it?  Yes.  Not in dribs and drabs but an Omni-heavy unit can share pods and be able to stop for an hour and suddenly turn around and come out swinging with a very different mix of capabilities.  There's a lot of potential there but the IS is not prepared to exploit it properly.