Author Topic: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085  (Read 19986 times)

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #30 on: 08 February 2011, 14:38:17 »
Fennec and MagClamp Infiltrator II come to mind immediately.  The AS8-D sounds promising, but I should probably wait to see the RS.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #31 on: 08 February 2011, 14:41:04 »
The record sheet is in TP: New Avalon....if you have that.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #32 on: 08 February 2011, 14:52:13 »
I do, as it so happens.  I'd forgotten it was in there.  Unfortunately, that cools my excitement.  The CT Snubbie, missiles in both torsos, and random SLs don't strike me as Atlas-y.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #33 on: 08 February 2011, 14:57:55 »
@MadCapellan
ERLLs would have dropped 4 damage in order to allow the mech to play as a good lancemate even if it ceased to be the spotter, as the ERLL is an excellent C3 weapon.

Massed ERMLs lose a lot of range, but at range 7 will still gain at least as much average damage even though it brings it to medium range.

LPL, even the IS version, will have the same TH at 7 hexes, better TH at knife-fighting range, do nearly the same damage, and do more for a single hex. Obviously this is all assuming you have teammates who are in short range at range 7, and you're planning on just mounting a one weapon pair such as on the Yao Lien. The options get even more varied as you expand the roles a spotter should be capable of. The Snubbie can get the job done, but why would you use it over other weapons?
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #34 on: 08 February 2011, 15:23:19 »
If it finds itself not actively spotting for something, a pair of snubbies go well with IJJ. Seriously, if you go through the decent IS mechs with IIJ, a huge amount of them mount one or usually two S-NPPCs. It's very...well, dense, for lack of better term, in that it has a lot of tons for each crit, which is handy since IJJ eat so many. Couple that with good damage, good accuracy to make up for jumping all the time, and the fact that IJJ work best for knife-fighters anyway, it's no surprise it's so common. I saw the dual S-NPPCs as a continuation of a larger trend in IJJ mechs, not necessarily a choice with the spotter role in mind.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #35 on: 08 February 2011, 15:34:44 »
If it finds itself not actively spotting for something, a pair of snubbies go well with IJJ. Seriously, if you go through the decent IS mechs with IIJ, a huge amount of them mount one or usually two S-NPPCs. It's very...well, dense, for lack of better term, in that it has a lot of tons for each crit, which is handy since IJJ eat so many. Couple that with good damage, good accuracy to make up for jumping all the time, and the fact that IJJ work best for knife-fighters anyway, it's no surprise it's so common. I saw the dual S-NPPCs as a continuation of a larger trend in IJJ mechs, not necessarily a choice with the spotter role in mind.

It's actually a great weapon for iJJs in general. Mechs with iJJs can usually dictate range fairly easily, and as such, can maintain that golden 7-9 hex bubble on most opponents. This brings the TH/TMM to even money if the Snubbed mech jumps, and gives you the advantage if you jump at least 3. Nice deal overall.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #36 on: 08 February 2011, 15:44:03 »
Favorite new toys...

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #37 on: 08 February 2011, 15:50:26 »
I'm not so sure.  While I agree that staying at seven hexes means you aren't capitalizing on the full range potential of the snub-nose, at seven hexes, it's the lightest weapon that will hit for 10 damage and still be at short range, and if your battle plan involves sticking to within 7 hexes of hostiles, there's really no reason to worry about it's ranged performance. 

If built with ER PPCs, the Yao Lien would have suffered serious heat issues and needed to shed other equipment.  If built with ER Large Lasers, it'd lose damage.  Standard range PPCs or Lasers would mean poor performance at optimum engagement range.  There simply aren't any better IS weapon choices for the job.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #38 on: 08 February 2011, 16:00:39 »
@MadCapellan
ERLLs would have dropped 4 damage in order to allow the mech to play as a good lancemate even if it ceased to be the spotter, as the ERLL is an excellent C3 weapon.

That's four damage I don't want to lose.  20 damage is a PSR, 16 isn't.  If my goal was to make a multi-role skirmisher, I might want the ER Larges, but the Yao Lien is an optimized spotter.  Performance past 7-8 hexes is irrelevent.

Quote
Massed ERMLs lose a lot of range, but at range 7 will still gain at least as much average damage even though it brings it to medium range.
They'll also put the Yao Lien's heat through the roof.  With seven improved jump jets, there's no space for the sinks to handle it all.

Quote
LPL, even the IS version, will have the same TH at 7 hexes, better TH at knife-fighting range, do nearly the same damage, and do more for a single hex.

It's also heavier & still deals less damage.  Getting 3 hexes or closer as a spotter is just asking to lose it.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #39 on: 08 February 2011, 16:09:15 »
Not to mention that if they have ECM, there goes your C3 spotting capability.


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IndyRI

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #40 on: 08 February 2011, 16:24:34 »
That's four damage I don't want to lose.  20 damage is a PSR, 16 isn't.  If my goal was to make a multi-role skirmisher, I might want the ER Larges, but the Yao Lien is an optimized spotter.  Performance past 7-8 hexes is irrelevent.

It's a spotter. If all you are hitting your target with is the spotter's weapons, then you are doing it wrong. So a PSR will come either way. 4 damage isn't fun to lose, but given the amount of additional flexibility it gives you within the unit, it is worthwhile. I can't tell you how often I've had a spotter quickly become a supporting unit due to the targets near him being killed and the rest of the opponent is near one of my other spotters. A spotter should focus on spotting first, but being able to hit for a full 8 damage at long range is a nice thing to have.

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They'll also put the Yao Lien's heat through the roof.  With seven improved jump jets, there's no space for the sinks to handle it all.
It takes 4 ERMLs to match the damage of 2 Snubbies. Even throwing in 2 more for extra damage to make the change worthwhile gives you 6 tons to play with. I'm at work so I don't have my TRO with me to check the crits and exacts, but that leaves a decent amount of tonnage to work with even if you are crit-shy. I can't delve any further into ways to get those crits back without my books, so I'm going to have to concede this one for the time being.

[/quote]
It's also heavier & still deals less damage.  Getting 3 hexes or closer as a spotter is just asking to lose it.
[/quote]
It's heavier but for better compatibility with the iJJs, and even better effectiveness in close range. And since when did you need to get within 3 hexes? The LPL is equally effective at 7 hexes as the Snubbie. You only lose 2 damage, which is negligable considering that you'll be throwing other ordanence at the target, as I stated above.

And again, those are only the weapons that I would sub while keeping the Yao Lien mostly intact. If tyou want to talk about straight efficiency, there are many weapons that just generally work better for spotters but would render the mech unrecognizable, which is a more general design-philosophy argument for another time.

I like the Yao Lien. It's got a great look, and excelelnt fluff. I just think that, efficiency being the only concern, it's lacking. I prefer flawed designs, but that doesn't mean I can't think of ways to improve the designs from an effectiveness standpoint.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #41 on: 08 February 2011, 16:32:03 »
I do, as it so happens.  I'd forgotten it was in there.  Unfortunately, that cools my excitement.  The CT Snubbie, missiles in both torsos, and random SLs don't strike me as Atlas-y.

Those aren't random SLs. They are there to keep the TSM going right at 9 heat.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #42 on: 08 February 2011, 16:35:21 »
Yeah, I figured.  It's the placement I thought was off.  Put at least 2 in the torso facing rear and the remainder anywhere but the legs.  But that's a personal preference issue really.
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Taurevanime

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #43 on: 08 February 2011, 16:37:59 »
Your welcome!
Thank you MadCap. Don't get mad at me if I end up using it against some of your faster Capellan mechs one day. :P

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #44 on: 08 February 2011, 16:58:08 »
4 damage isn't fun to lose, but given the amount of additional flexibility it gives you within the unit, it is worthwhile. I can't tell you how often I've had a spotter quickly become a supporting unit due to the targets near him being killed and the rest of the opponent is near one of my other spotters.

Why do you have two spotters for the same lance at opposite ends of the board?  That's the only way to explain why a 'Mech with a 7 hex jump can't get in range of a target with 9 hexes of short range of a target your other spotter is on.  Splitting the fire of a C³ network like that is simply a waste, and you're just asking for trouble or to lose spotters.

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It takes 4 ERMLs to match the damage of 2 Snubbies.

If you're both standing still and at 4 hexes, maybe.  jumping at 7 hexes is an entirely different story.  Your chance of hitting is a full half that of the snub-nose PPCs assuming standard gunners.  You'd need 8 ER Medium Lasers to consistently deliver the same damage, and there's no way you are wedging 20 doubles on a Yao Lien, or any 55 tonner.

It's also heavier & still deals less damage.  Getting 3 hexes or closer as a spotter is just asking to lose it.

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[Large Pulse Lasers are] heavier but for better compatibility with the iJJs, and even better effectiveness in close range. And since when did you need to get within 3 hexes?

When you said "more effective at close range".

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The LPL is equally effective at 7 hexes as the Snubbie.

except they require two tons you don't have to spare, and deal 2 less damage.  Oh, and they can't do anything past 10 hexes, and are far less efficient in hexes 8 & 9.

Quote
You only lose 2 damage, which is negligable considering that you'll be throwing other ordanence at the target, as I stated above.

It's hardly negligible when my only interest is doing the best damage I can at 7 hexes, which is what being a spotter is all about.


Quote
I prefer flawed designs, but that doesn't mean I can't think of ways to improve the designs from an effectiveness standpoint.

There really isn't a canon design out there that can't be improved.  The snub-nose PPC on the Yao Lien is hardly the thing to change about it, however.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #45 on: 08 February 2011, 17:13:42 »
Frankly, between the TRO and the suplimental there's too much to choose from.  I like the updates for old battle armor, flame resistant Elemntals  :D

I like all the new APCs, the effective and heavily armed vees going to the Republic and the Moltke going to Andurien.  The use of support vehicles like the Zugvogel and the Teppo are really nice examples of what can be done with those construction rules.

Mechs... well, less impressed.  The Treburana is a nice idea, the Orochi is a nice DC version of a GR boat.

And, how can I forget conventional infantry?!  That's a watershed moment.  For those of us who have championed combined arms against the nay says for so long, it's nice to see technology (in canon) finally make it's way through the entire depth of forces.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #46 on: 08 February 2011, 17:32:49 »
Hey, MadCap, may I ask what's your take on Shen Yi and its role?

The SHY-3B Shen Yi is an urban ambusher, preferably taking it's first shots from a position hidden inside a building, avoiding detection by means of stealth armor.  If piloted by a veteran pilot, it actually should be able to deliver some pretty solid damage for it's size at three hexes or less (38 damage heat efficient average, 44 with 4 overheat, 60 maximum).  Unfortunately, it's effectiveness outside 3 hexes is practically negligible, so it's hyperspecialized almost to the point of irrelevency.  A unit specializing in Urban defense may find one desirable, but any field unit would be very disappointed to be issued one.  A Quick fix would be to swap the ER Large Laser for a standard, the Medium Pulse Lasers for standards, and adding Apollo FCS to the MRMs.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #47 on: 08 February 2011, 17:36:46 »
Well, if you have some Vanquishers around, the Snubbie is a great C3 spotter for anything with LGRs.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #48 on: 08 February 2011, 17:37:37 »
The SHY-3B Shen Yi is an urban ambusher, preferably taking it's first shots from a position hidden inside a building, avoiding detection by means of stealth armor.  If piloted by a veteran pilot, it actually should be able to deliver some pretty solid damage for it's size at three hexes or less (38 damage heat efficient average, 44 with 4 overheat, 60 maximum).  Unfortunately, it's effectiveness outside 3 hexes is practically negligible, so it's hyperspecialized almost to the point of irrelevency.  A unit specializing in Urban defense may find one desirable, but any field unit would be very disappointed to be issued one.  A Quick fix would be to swap the ER Large Laser for a standard, the Medium Pulse Lasers for standards, and adding Apollo FCS to the MRMs.
If your opponent is stupid stubborn enough, it's probably a good choice for wading into the midst of a stationary gun line.  Not alone, of course.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #49 on: 08 February 2011, 18:54:50 »
I'm going to go against most of the other Davions to say the Cuirass. I'm a more aesthetic kind of fellow, and I just like that sword that it has. Plus, it's looks like it has a Phoenix Valkyrie's head muffled with a scarf. That's awesome.

Sure, someone really has to tell Robinson Standard Battleworks to start using double heatsinks more often  But that seems to be part of the charm of a Robinson made mech. Though I have to wonder if they were the ones who did the limited production run for the Suns on the AS8-D. Robinson Standard Battleworks does build Victors for the Suns, and it seems that Robinson Standard Battleworks is trying to replace the loss of Independence Weaponry for the Draconis March and the rest of the Suns.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #50 on: 08 February 2011, 19:32:45 »
The SHY-3B Shen Yi is an urban ambusher, preferably taking it's first shots from a position hidden inside a building, avoiding detection by means of stealth armor.  If piloted by a veteran pilot, it actually should be able to deliver some pretty solid damage for it's size at three hexes or less (38 damage heat efficient average, 44 with 4 overheat, 60 maximum).  Unfortunately, it's effectiveness outside 3 hexes is practically negligible, so it's hyperspecialized almost to the point of irrelevency.  A unit specializing in Urban defense may find one desirable, but any field unit would be very disappointed to be issued one.  A Quick fix would be to swap the ER Large Laser for a standard, the Medium Pulse Lasers for standards, and adding Apollo FCS to the MRMs.
A sad story, indeed. I was really looking forward to the fire-support platform that we first saw in the Liao Incursion dossiers (2 LRM-20, 1 LL), but it seems that it has to wait for some time along with Tian-zong. I can see SHY-3B as a specialized (and thus rare) refit for the urban combat, but as a basic variant... ugh.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #51 on: 08 February 2011, 21:19:46 »
I'm going to go against most of the other Davions to say the Cuirass. I'm a more aesthetic kind of fellow, and I just like that sword that it has. Plus, it's looks like it has a Phoenix Valkyrie's head muffled with a scarf. That's awesome.

It's not a great 'Mech, but I wouldn't describe it as bad.  The heat sinks are a marginal issue at worst, as they only really limit firing while jumping, and jumping & firing a RAC is a bit of a waste.  Varying of the RAC firing rate should make it simple enough to eliminate any overheating concerns, and RAC/5+ML+Sword is a pretty good combo for a mobile 40 tonner.  Considering the Cuiraiss' company in the forty-ton class, it's effective and classy.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #52 on: 08 February 2011, 21:38:00 »
I like the Cuirass a lot more than the Blade.  Could use TSM though.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #53 on: 08 February 2011, 21:38:27 »
I like the Cuirass a lot more than the Blade.  Could use TSM though.

That would have been wicked.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #54 on: 08 February 2011, 23:02:33 »
I like the Blade as kind of a mini Legionnaire. It's a specialist tool, bit weaker and less accurate than it's bigger brother, but it has some backup weapons.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #55 on: 08 February 2011, 23:25:42 »
Until you lose that arm.  Then you're screwed.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #56 on: 09 February 2011, 00:54:42 »
Think of it as an indicator on when you should retreat. *BOOM* The easily replaced weapon arm goes off, and you head back to base to get a new one put on.
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #57 on: 09 February 2011, 02:59:37 »
The Shen Yi needs to be modded into an Inner Sphere Lupus.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #58 on: 09 February 2011, 11:02:53 »
Why do you have two spotters for the same lance at opposite ends of the board?  That's the only way to explain why a 'Mech with a 7 hex jump can't get in range of a target with 9 hexes of short range of a target your other spotter is on.  Splitting the fire of a C³ network like that is simply a waste, and you're just asking for trouble or to lose spotters.

Not two spotters. But when you drop the target you're spotting, the next available target might very well only be within spotting range of one of your other mechs, even if they're not of the spotter variety. Flankers especially end up doing this. it's less of a problem with smaller maps, as the 7 Jump you described will likely get you where you need to go, but the larger the playing area, the greater the risk of this occuring. It's a matter of added utility

Quote
If you're both standing still and at 4 hexes, maybe.  jumping at 7 hexes is an entirely different story.  Your chance of hitting is a full half that of the snub-nose PPCs assuming standard gunners.  You'd need 8 ER Medium Lasers to consistently deliver the same damage, and there's no way you are wedging 20 doubles on a Yao Lien, or any 55 tonner.
Assuming you're jumping every turn, and assuming you're sticking strictly to 7 hexes, which will limit your choice of lancemates somewhat. Artificial limitations on my point placed by individual tactical considerations, MadCap. You're better than that buddy  ;)

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It's also heavier & still deals less damage.  Getting 3 hexes or closer as a spotter is just asking to lose it.

When you said "more effective at close range".

except they require two tons you don't have to spare, and deal 2 less damage.  Oh, and they can't do anything past 10 hexes, and are far less efficient in hexes 8 & 9.


It is more effective at close range. Should be be heading into close range? No. But if you can argue that the Snubbie is more useful at long range, it's fully viable that I can argue the LPL is better at close range. It's a matter of added utility to the design, and which do you think you're more likely to have a spotter at? 3 hexes or 9?

Quote
except they require two tons you don't have to spare, and deal 2 less damage.  Oh, and they can't do anything past 10 hexes, and are far less efficient in hexes 8 & 9.

Switching one LPL for an ERLL goes a long way to solving both problems.

Quote
It's hardly negligible when my only interest is doing the best damage I can at 7 hexes, which is what being a spotter is all about.

Only if your lancemates are all equipped strictly with weapons that come into short range at 7 hexes. It can be true a large portion of the time, but certainly not always.

It's not a great 'Mech, but I wouldn't describe it as bad.  The heat sinks are a marginal issue at worst, as they only really limit firing while jumping, and jumping & firing a RAC is a bit of a waste.  Varying of the RAC firing rate should make it simple enough to eliminate any overheating concerns, and RAC/5+ML+Sword is a pretty good combo for a mobile 40 tonner.  Considering the Cuiraiss' company in the forty-ton class, it's effective and classy.

A rare agreement between me and MadCap!  ;D
Let me second everything he said. The heat's very managable as long as you're not firing 6 shots a turn every turn, which you should be anyways. Is it great? No. But it's eminently usable.

Well, if you have some Vanquishers around, the Snubbie is a great C3 spotter for anything with LGRs.
And one of the only exceptions to my stance. Good call Kit, as usual. If you're playing mostly with weapons that can exploit the 8-9 point golden bubble that the Snubbie creates, then it's an excellent spotters weapon. It's just rarely the right choice for the job. Vanquishers aren't exactly common, and even less so in the CapCon.
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MadCapellan

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #59 on: 09 February 2011, 13:29:01 »
Not two spotters. But when you drop the target you're spotting, the next available target might very well only be within spotting range of one of your other mechs, even if they're not of the spotter variety. Flankers especially end up doing this. it's less of a problem with smaller maps, as the 7 Jump you described will likely get you where you need to go, but the larger the playing area, the greater the risk of this occuring. It's a matter of added utility

Assuming the weapons I am spotting for were no more than 23 hexes away from the target (long range for an ER PPC) and I was spotting from 7 hexes to the target from the friendly side (to avoid ECM interference), if I jump seven hexes, I should be within nine hexes of anything between me and my gunline, & I've got three more hexes of equal coverage to a Large Laser beyond that for less heat than an ER Large.  I'd say someone further than that is unlikely enough that I don't want to lose 4 damage over it.

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Assuming you're jumping every turn, and assuming you're sticking strictly to 7 hexes, which will limit your choice of lancemates somewhat. Artificial limitations on my point placed by individual tactical considerations

Not really if we're discussing C3 spotting.  Getting closer than 7 hexes submits you to the enemy's ECM, rendering your mission pointless.  At 7 hexes, even standing still, you'll still need more than 4 ER Medium Lasers to equal or exceed the damage of the two SNPPCs, at which point, you won't be able to handle the heat.

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It is more effective at close range. Should be be heading into close range? No. But if you can argue that the Snubbie is more useful at long range, it's fully viable that I can argue the LPL is better at close range.

Those are hardly equal values for a C3 spotter.  At 9 hexes, my lance takes shots at medium instead of short range and I survive the turn.  At 3 hexes enemy ECM has likely cut your network, enemy MLs and SRMs are ripping into you, and unless you significantly outgun them or they're somewhat dullwitted, you'll have a crippled spotter at turns end.

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Only if your lancemates are all equipped strictly with weapons that come into short range at 7 hexes. It can be true a large portion of the time, but certainly not always.

Weapons with a 7 hex short range include LRMs, all Gauss, ER PPCs, & ER Large Lasers.  6 hexes means risking an ECM bubble.  Combining the fact that weapons with short range brackets of 6 or less are rarer and less desirable overall for C3 with the vulnerability to ECM makes it a bad choice.
« Last Edit: 09 February 2011, 19:31:55 by MadCapellan »