Ok, this thread is coming from a number of sources.
One is the recent thread about the Hellstar, and also from some of the rants against modded mechs, and also from several comments from newer players that don't know the convoluted history of FASA.
I've been watching threads go by where there are complaints about this design, or that design being over-optimized, etc.
My question is.... by what standard? Yes, if you compare a Hellstar, or any Clan design, for that matter, against 3025 designs, then yes... it would appear that the clan designs are more optimized than the IS.... but again, by what standard.
I will take a Vulcan, and any player here who wants one, can have a Hellstar.... the goal is to stop Infantry from swarming you.... each mech must face 200 troops, and avoid being swarmed......
People need to remember that Battletech is a collection of retconned rules with various plug ins and add ons. Even the AC/2, AC/10, and AC/20 are add ons. The original rules only had one autocannon... the AC/5. That's why the AC/5 is so very common on so many of the early designs..... it was The Autocannon.
People need to remember, that with the exception of the Large Laser, or PPC.. both of which were considered extremely HOT weapons.... most of the game was based around 5 point hits...
Medium Laser, AC/5, LRM cluster, etc. You had Machine Guns, Small Lasers, and SRM missiles as the small hits --- and the Large Laser and PPC as the big heavy guns.....
As each and every new tech, or idea, was added, the dynamics changed a little..... the AC/2 and AC/10 didn't change a lot, but the AC/20 did.... it was the first headcap weapon that didn't need a successful crit roll to kill a mech in one hit.... and yes, a lot of people called the Hunchback an Over-Optimized design, and whined about it on the table. I've seen games where the GM house ruled that the AC/20 didn't exist.... He modded the Hunchback, and all other 3025 AC/20 carriers, to carry an AC/10s and that was it.... another one decided that AC's, like LRM's, did their damage in 5 point hits.
The thing that people are missing is that every design is optimized for it's time period. Let's take one of the common 3025 designs, the Wolverine. The combination of AC/5, SRM6, and Medium Laser gives it the ability to not only hit at various ranges, but also allow it to do more damage as it closes. It's heat efficient, and even while firing all of it's weapons, only makes a total of 10 heat on the run.... you can even jump 4 for no heat, or the max 5 and only build 1 point of heat.
If you look at it and consider the design perameter of the time, it is an extremely good design..... but people want to mod it ---- ok, lets look at those.
Most people replace the AC ... so let's look at that. For continuity, though, we are going to stay within the tech level of the original.....
So... replacing the AC with a PPC ---- not bad, but now you have to bracket fire some, or risk heat penalties....especially if you use the jump jets...... and while you gain some long range damage, you really don't do much more overall damage, because you lower your overall number of to-hit rolls, and if you miss with the PPC, you still get 10 heat. Also, if you take an engine crit, which is always possible on a double 1..... well, let's say that you'll be having to consider your heat with everything you do.
You get the same with the Large Laser... and while you can devote the saved tonnage to heat sinks.... that still maxes you at 16. Both Lasers + the SRM6 equal 15 heat... 17 if running, and more if you jump, and you have more issues if you do take an engine crit or two..... Plus you lose 6 hexes of advantage with this mod ..... and I know, people are already telling me my math is off, but here, I'll break it down for you. Your long range is 3 shorter, than the AC/5, your medium range is 2 hexes shorter, and your short range is 1 hex shorter.... so, you lose 3 overall hexes at long range.
You lose 2 hexes at medium range, where the AC/5 has a range penalty of 2, and the laser has a 4, and at short range, the AC has an extra hex with no penalty, where the Large Laser has a penalty of 2.
That's 6 overall hexes where the large laser loses advantage to the AC/5.
The other variant I've seen replaces the AC/5 with an LRM15 and 2 tons of ammo --- 5 times the heat, which means you risk those heat issues... 4 less turns of fire before running out of ammo, and double the locations for ammo crits, and a higher chance of taking more damage if you do get an ammo crit......
Ok, here comes the next part -- what about double heat sinks? Well, what about them? If there are double heat sinks on the field, then most likely, there are XL engines, and ER weapons.
XL engines make you more vulnerable to torso damage --- double heat sinks are just plain bulky. Yes, Clan equipment is not as penalized.... but if you are comparing Clan to IS, you are going to have to just get used to it. Clan stuff IS JUST BETTER. Honestly, clan mechs should be considered their own category --- and when played against inner sphere, should ALWAYS be balanced via BV2 or whatever method is used..... Clan and Inner Sphere are different standards.... like IBM and Apple --- yes, there are similarities, but they are not the same.
Again, though, every mod/canon/tweaked design I have ever seen (and I've seen massive numbers) has had the same limitations. They are either designed for a specific role, at which point, they excell, or they are a general design, and therefore not as "optimized." This includes the Hellstar ... yes, if it stands in one place, and doesn't have to take return fire, it can decimate other mechs... and yes, it is an optimal mech.... when you consider mech to mech combat. However, if you have to clear infantry... take out swarms of Savannah Masters, deal with multiple points/squads of battle armor, or provide indirect support.... it is not so optimal.
The Catapult is an optimal fire support design.... as long as you are not trying to cover a raiding force, and have only limited reload capability. Speaking of a raiding force ---- if I am raiding for supplies, I use mechs with hands.... it's MUCH easier to pick up and steal things with hands... and while both the rifleman and warhammer are great for cover fire, they lack the ability to pick up and carry things.
People need to understand that mechs are kind of like any other tool -- some are high power air wrenches, and some are jewelers screw drivers .... if you understand the role the mech is geared for, then it isn't that hard to deal with it. This includes any modded design... because as long as the designer didn't cheat via going over tonnage.... or isn't crossing the clan vs. inner sphere line without some form of balance... then no design that they can come up with is ever going to be better than a canon design or any other design.
And I know, people are going to pop up with all kinds of ideas... but if you look at Battletech as a whole.... there are no over optimal designs.
Someone likes medium laser spam... use Thorns, light, fast, and can flip the arm with the LRM's. Hellstar? Use any of the listed tactics in the thread about it (I prefer LBX cannons).
For every design, there is a method.....whether it's using terrain features, or just using different units than your favorites. I learned how to use vehicles dealing with a player that loved making heavy mechs with nothing but large and medium lasers mated with double heat sinks....... I introduced him to inferno armed infantry, along with LRM and SRM carriers.
I had the SRM carriers behind heavy walls.... he could either take the beating from the LRM's while he tried burning through the walls, or try to rush in, and deal with the infantry and SRM's at close range, trying to get to the LRMs.
Just remember, no matter what you face, this is a game. Have fun.... but don't be afraid to occasionally step outside of your comfort zone..... you might be in for a pleasant surprise.
Nahuris