The M5 Drone WarShip

[Isanova]

Caspar mk. II did not have these higher-command intelligent computers (not quite AI, but multi-phasic computing as per SLSB) thus the need for nearby space stations, converted Naga ships, and ground-based command. If you took out the human command unit for the Caspars they would still fight, but would be "stuck" on their lower end functions (attack, maneuver, etc) and would not respond well to fleet tactics, not pick targets as intelligently, and would not retreat or regroup at all.

[VhenRa]

Where as the way it is described, an original Caspar could fight decently with only broad objectives from a human commander. Where as Caspar II required some micro-managing?

[Martius]

Star League pg. 61 says: These drone ships, dubbed Caspars, were designed to defend a planet against
enemy vessels. Using an ultrasophisticated computer system, the SDS could easily operate with only a handful of Humans
monitoring the system. The computers were capable of repairing themselves and of launching other drone ships from computerrun
spaceports

How much of that information is the usual 'the Starleague was better in everything' hyperbole I cannot say.

[sillybrit]

One indication of the original Caspar's capabilites can be seen in TRO3057R in the entry for the Luxor:

"The automated combat drones identified the heavy cruisers as a major threat and concentrated their attacks. Recognizing this fact, the SLDF began to use the Luxors in a decoy role."

That the "automated combat drones" IDed the threat posed by the Luxors and not "the operators of the SDS network" shows that the Caspars were able to independently categorize threats based upon their capabilites and act accordingly.

However, the ability of the SLDF to use the Luxors as decoys suggests that there were limits to the Caspar's strategic thinking, which is where perhaps human operators should have intervened, and perhaps Amaris' troops were not as skilled as the SLDF staff they replaced.

[DarthRads]

One indication of the original Caspar's capabilites can be seen in TRO3057R in the entry for the Luxor:

"The automated combat drones identified the heavy cruisers as a major threat and concentrated their attacks. Recognizing this fact, the SLDF began to use the Luxors in a decoy role."

That the "automated combat drones" IDed the threat posed by the Luxors and not "the operators of the SDS network" shows that the Caspars were able to independently categorize threats based upon their capabilites and act accordingly.

However, the ability of the SLDF to use the Luxors as decoys suggests that there were limits to the Caspar's strategic thinking, which is where perhaps human operators should have intervened, and perhaps Amaris' troops were not as skilled as the SLDF staff they replaced.

Good point...The SDS wasn't Skynet, but was capable of tactical decission making...

[truetanker]

Can someone put this through the ringer?

Using cost efficiency protocols, I find that the NL-55 and Medium NPPC with ER PPC, ER Medium and point defense Small Pulse Lasers to be far better than anything else. Plus you could chalk it up to fun.

TT

[sillybrit]

No ERMLs in Star League times.

[Welshman]

No ERMLs in Star League times.

And ERPPC are after 2760

[verybad]

Can someone put this through the ringer?

Using cost efficiency protocols, I find that the NL-55 and Medium NPPC with ER PPC, ER Medium and point defense Small Pulse Lasers to be far better than anything else. Plus you could chalk it up to fun.

TT

Well better or most cost efficient are dirty words with SLDF Weapon's Suppliers. Sure they had to meet some sort of standard, but Cost Efficiency...

That's why there are lobbyists today, and certainly some sort of equivalent in the 2700s.

I doubt they had much if any antimissile protection as they didn't do much for their standard ships carrying people back then, and Caspars were more attack! attack! attack! From my impression.

[DarthRads]

Definitly see them as energy primary armament, with missile launchers for nukes and maybe a couple of twin NAC35 turret for close range 'haymaker' punch.

I see their standard tactic (supported by the description of the approach to Terra in the SLSB) as sniping at range, then charging in at high speed and delivering the kill blow.

[tekteam26]

Definitly see them as energy primary armament, with missile launchers for nukes and maybe a couple of twin NAC35 turret for close range 'haymaker' punch.

I see their standard tactic (supported by the description of the approach to Terra in the SLSB) as sniping at range, then charging in at high speed and delivering the kill blow.

I did a little playing with the figures, upgraded the engines to give 5/8 movement, swapped out the NAC-10's for a total of fourteen NAC-30's in twin gun batteries, thirty two NL-55's in quad batteries, sixteen AR-10's in twin tube batteries, upgraded the armor to the max that the existing SI could handle of Ferro-Carbide armor, give her fifteen thousand tons of fuel for extended endurance, upgraded her heat sinks to enough double capacity units to handle all of the heat and still had some tonnage to spare for the drone control unit and kept the standard fighter/small craft complement.

I hate to say this, but I was in error here because I didn't first look at just how much tonnage that a drone control unit would take up. Using the minimum twelve percent of the WarShip's tonnage for the control unit, meant that I had to gut the Caspar's armament, not add to it, in order to have it move at 5/8 and still have roughly the same armor level.

Now, I know that some of you think that 4/6 acceleration is plenty for the Caspar. But it just doesn't fit the canon description of how Caspars were able to cut through SLDF formations with "unbelievable" speed. Yes, not having a crew aboard means that you can sustain accelerations for much longer....but you need 5/8 speed to make the kind of instantaneous accelerations and maneuvers that a Caspar would have to do to match the canon descriptions. For those people who kept saying that Lolas had enough tonnage available to upgrade engines, armor and weaponry all at the same time.....well, unless SLDF drone tech weighs half as much as the WOB stuff, you just can't do it....not at all.

[DarthRads]

I did a little playing with the figures, upgraded the engines to give 5/8 movement, swapped out the NAC-10's for a total of fourteen NAC-30's in twin gun batteries, thirty two NL-55's in quad batteries, sixteen AR-10's in twin tube batteries, upgraded the armor to the max that the existing SI could handle of Ferro-Carbide armor, give her fifteen thousand tons of fuel for extended endurance, upgraded her heat sinks to enough double capacity units to handle all of the heat and still had some tonnage to spare for the drone control unit and kept the standard fighter/small craft complement.

I'd drop two NAC 30s and upgrade the barrels  bringing the total two twelve NAC 35s, thus conforming to my close range Haymaker. It can be done on the same mass...

[tekteam26]

I'd drop two NAC 30s and upgrade the barrels  bringing the total two twelve NAC 35s, thus conforming to my close range Haymaker. It can be done on the same mass...

That still doesn't work.....there's not enough mass to upgrade the armament and get a Caspar a speed that matches with the canon descriptions in the first place unfortunately....not using Caspar II control mass requirements anyway. Drone controls have to be a lot lighter for an original Caspar to work.

[DarthRads]

That still doesn't work.....there's not enough mass to upgrade the armament and get a Caspar a speed that matches with the canon descriptions in the first place unfortunately....not using Caspar II control mass requirements anyway. Drone controls have to be a lot lighter for an original Caspar to work.

Your proposal had 12 Nac30

12xNAC30 = 42 000t
10xNAC35 = 40 000t

No weight issue at all...in fact you save 2000t which can be used to compensate for heavier shells.

Also, Caspars are 'fast' by the standard of the day (when most ships could do 3/5)...4/6 could be fast, though I'd like/to see them 'ungodly fast' (5/8). As they can sustain accelration without care for crews wellbeing, they can achieve a much higher velocity more quickly...

[tekteam26]

Your proposal had 12 Nac30

12xNAC30 = 42 000t
10xNAC35 = 40 000t

No weight issue at all...in fact you save 2000t which can be used to compensate for heavier shells.

Also, Caspars are 'fast' by the standard of the day (when most ships could do 3/5)...4/6 could be fast, though I'd like/to see them 'ungodly fast' (5/8). As they can sustain accelration without care for crews wellbeing, they can achieve a much higher velocity more quickly...

The problem is that while 4/6 acceleration continued on for a large number of turns in a single vector (direction) would make for a very fast initial pass, Caspars were described as being able to also maneuver very quickly. That means that you have to have a lot of instantaneous acceleration points to change vectors, especially if you want to make that second or fifth pass on an enemy formation. 4/6 just doesn't cut it because if you acceleration for ten turns in a single vector for that first pass at 3G, it will take you another ten turns just to get stopped relative to your initial speed, then you have to turn around and acceleration for anywhere from twelve to eighteen turns just to get back in range for a second pass....if you are lucky. One Caspar attack per twenty-two to twenty-eight turns is not what the canon describes at all. You NEED higher acceleration as in 5/8 or faster to make a Casper operate as the canon describes.

Unless the drone equipment used by the SLDF is a LOT lighter than the WOB stuff, there's not going to be enough tonnage for more than four NAC-30's at all, much less a ten NAC-35's or any other medium/heavy NAC battery.

[Welshman]

One Caspar attack per twenty-two to twenty-eight turns is not what the canon describes at all. You NEED higher acceleration as in 5/8 or faster to make a Casper operate as the canon describes..

I'm fairly certain that Canon has never spoken in any time scales. The famous admirals report sums up an entire burn in to the system in a few paragraphs.

HBSL existed before there was anything but the original aerospace fighter rules.

[sillybrit]

One Caspar attack per twenty-two to twenty-eight turns is not what the canon describes at all. You NEED higher acceleration as in 5/8 or faster to make a Casper operate as the canon describes.

Even ignoring Welshman's point, I'd also point out that there were many Caspars -  56 vs 8 WarShips, with those 8 split up into 2 groups - so even if an individual drone took a long time to reengage, it's entirely possible for there to be a multiple attacks due to follow-on drones, perhaps some going fast and some going slow, that could also account for the fight as described.

That first "incredibly swift pass" could have been just one group that built up velocity (or got in front and decelerated hard so that the SLDF ships overran them) in advance of the start of the attacks, blowing through the SLDF formation and maybe even not returning to the fight until much later.

It's only an assumption that the Capsars which made the initial "incredibly swift pass" are the ones that attacked Braso's flagship, then the Rex and then the transports, which do appear more likely from the wording to be a trio of linked attacks. Although that first pass and the trio of attacks are in the same paragraph, the wording doesn't preclude them being discrete events, and it could have been a second group moving at a slower speed, or even multiple groups. Since we have no exact knowledge of the layout of the SLDF formation, it's entirely possible that the flagship-to-Rex-to-transport attack run could have been performed by a relatively linear attack, with little or no maneuvering by the Caspars as they pass through the formation, engaging targets as they come into range, until they change vector to retreat after the surviving escort WarShips drive them away.

Of course, on the last point, given that this was the subjective personal opinion of Braso, rather than being stated in objective text, we don't really know whether her ships truely did force the Caspars to scatter after killing two transports, it could have been that the drones had just finished their planned attack run and were re-vectoring anyway. Despite being a decorated officer, etc she could have just been putting a brave face on what was turning out to be a massacre.

As a last note, with Braso's taskforce limited to 1.5Gs due to the pair of 2/3 Aegis cruisers, that's means that 4/6 Caspars are still going to provide the 1.5G excess that you're arguing for by instead comparing 5/8 to 3/5.

[Welshman]

And when transporting troops, you tend to run at 1G except for combat maneuvers. This prevents wearing out your crew and troops. Caspars never have to slow down, as they have no squishies to worry about.

[tekteam26]

Admiral Braso had to have had extensive experience over the years working with 4/6 WarShips like the Lola and Vincent. Yet, he uses such superlatives when describing the agility of the slashing attacks and reattacks of the Caspars as though he had never seen such swiftness before. I have to continue to strongly believe that Caspar transit drives were upgraded to at least 5/8 acceleration. This is particularly the case after seeing the latest canon illustrations of Caspars. Comparing them with older illustrations of Lolas with the dual sensor array towers, the latest Caspars have significantly larger transit drives. These Caspars were clearly based on the illustrations of the illustrations of the Lola I and II, not the Lola III also.

[Welshman]

Admiral Braso had to have had extensive experience over the years working

With Caspars... Remember, they are not new. The report is a subjective based, in the moment report. Always be careful with these kinds of reports.

[tekteam26]

With Caspars... Remember, they are not new. The report is a subjective based, in the moment report. Always be careful with these kinds of reports.

I know, but the math just doesn't add up for Caspars who are only marginally faster than Braso's ships to be able to race in at high velocity, kill that velocity very quickly and reengage....then repeat this many multiple times before the SLDF force arrives at the planet.

[sillybrit]

And again, you're making the assumption that it's just one attack wave, rather than multiple groups attacking in sequence, quite possibly with different velocities and from different directions.

[Aerohead]

Perhaps I am making a very uneducated statement here, but arent battletech sensors capable of tracking more than one incomming battle group or squadron??  I don"t buy that a captain would in ANY way be confused by multiple target groups at range, or that somehow these Caspar groups could mask or hide their approach to trick a commander into thinking its just one group.  Am I overstating the ability of battletech sensors? 

Seriously, this is not a rhetorical question, I am having trouble visualizing this.

[Hellraiser]

Well to use the Brasso example,  he had a total of 8 warships.
Against 50+ Caspars.

All 50 had gathered near the planet by the time he was on final approach IIRC from the story.

Its not too far off to imagine them breaking off into groups of 10 ships and hitting Brasso's force from different angles.

Being under fire from even 10 at one time is more than his force could handle IMHO.
And having them not stop as wave after wave passes through his formation and then take off only to have another wave hit him while the last is turning around.

Yeah, I can see where Sillybrit is coming from

[sillybrit]

@Aerohead:

The section in the SLSB when Admiral Amanda Braso describes the Caspars' attacks on her (just a hint for those who're saying Braso's a guy  ;) ) doesn't make any description of the formation or formations being used by the Caspars, while what it says about Braso's Flotilla is that it's split into two groups, each with a mix of WarShips and "troop transports", ie. DropShips.

My main point is that due to the lack of clear, unambiguous detail in the text, we cannot be certain exactly how the Caspars conducted their attacks and how the formation of Braso's ships may have influenced their movements. Was it a single wave of Caspars with the battle akin to a dogfight? Did the Caspars instead attack in waves, each group adapting to the situation due to prior attacks?

The text doesn't clearly state one way or the other, so lack of proof/proof of lack and all that.  All we can be certain of is that the Caspars must have split into at least two groups before battle joined, because they attacked both of Braso's detachments, and we know that at one point during the battle with Braso's own detachment that the Caspars attacking them organized again into two groups, one going after the surviving WarShips and the other after the transports.

So, if we can't be certain exactly how the Caspars attacked, how can we really use Braso's log to say for certain that they have a certain maneuver capability, ie. Thrust? Reading the log as a standalone document allows either the single wave or the multiple wave ideas, with neither being favored more than the other. However, once we take into account the construction rules, plus the description of the Caspars elsewhere in the SLDB, I believe it makes high Thrust unlikely, which means in turn that the single wave idea is also unlikely.

But maybe TPTB will come up with something that will surprise us all. Perhaps it was only the early models of Caspar that were battlecruiser firepower packed into a Lola's frame, and by the time we get to the mid-28th century, the latest models were larger and thus could retain the same firepower at a higher Thrust, with Braso not mentioning that because to her and her intended readers, ie. fellow SLN officers, it would have been obvious. Or perhaps the Hegemony came up with something amazing, and the Caspars were fitted with a lighter KF drive, maybe one less capable than a full-sized Compact KF drive.

Or maybe, the SLSB will be counted as flawed, like other older House books, with the in-universe explanation that ComStar had been up to their usual tricks.

[Aerohead]

Personally I do not think the Caspars have any surprisingly high thrust rating myself.  I suspect the speed and surprising maneuverability is an artifact of their ability to commit to max thrust over time without the need to protect a crew from the effects of high G.  I imagine this would be akin to an F-15 squadron going head to head with a F-22.  While not necessarily faster, the new thrust vectoring technology would indeed be a surprise worthy of note in debriefing.

In neither situation would the commanders or pilots be confused by the numbers, direction, or disposition of the force they were encountering.

I would never question a woman on her word either.  So lets just call her description solid gold!   ;)

[sillybrit]

Well, we do have some evidence to question Braso's judgement, given that she led her unit in a rather unprofessional dash back to the Hegemony, even against orders judging by other text in the SLSB. Some might argue that splitting her Flotilla, even if for good intentions, was an equally unwise call given the disparity in numbers between the Caspars and her ships. Even if the Capsars were plain vanilla Lola IIIs, 28 of those against a Black Lion or Potemkin, an Aegis, 2 Lola IIIs and assorted DropShips (assuming that was the split) would have still been a massacre, so there seemed little to gain.

That she was a 30 year veteran in the SLN doesn't necessarily mean that much either, given that it was a peacetime navy for the majority of her career, and even when the Periphery uprising did occur it's entirely possible that she had little if any opportunity to exercise command in a full up naval battle like what she encountered over Epsilon Eridani. The Periphery had relatively few WarShips at the time, and Braso was in command of an Armed Transport Flotilla after all, not a combat unit tasked specifically to go after enemy naval forces.

The WarShips she had may have been fine against possible Periphery opposition, but against SDS networks she should have known that they had no chance and her own log notes that nobody was surprised when Epsilon Eridani's SDS rejected her ID codes, so she already knew that it was almost certain to be in enemy hands. That right there, even more than her apparently disobeying orders in a mad cap rush back to the Hegemony, raises big questions in my mind.

There's also no indication of when and how she'd earned her Naval Medal of Valor - I don't think it's even known just where D'Van's Star is located - it could have easily been while she was a less senior officer, or for an act of bravery that had little to do with her ability command or her judgement.

That's not to say that Braso couldn't have been a skilled and effective commander, I'm just again pointing out that we have so little information and that there's some unanswered issues in her conduct, that it's impossible to say for 100% certain how reliable the testimony in her log actually was.

[JPArbiter]

Now that we have the image and know stats will (finally) be coming, I would like to ask the designers to please make it live up to the fluff and be a true terror.

That being said, what do we all think the Caspars were like? Terrors? Examples of Extreme Marketing and propganda, but average in reality?

Thoughts...

the Latter.  the entire point of any unmanned combat system is to make them cheap and in quantity.  though based off of the Lola III hull, I expect thier capabilities to be more in line with the Lola I or II more for the reason of cost cutting then anything else.

I also fail to see why Caspars would have to be "ammo independant"  these suckers would need to be pulled into dock and maintained more studiously then a warship with a crew, thus a autocannon and capital missle based armament would 1) be cheaper and 2) be realistic since you can just swap out rounds every time you bring a squadron in for maintenance.  these things are not meant to float out there for decades on end after all.

[Welshman]

the Latter.  the entire point of any unmanned combat system is to make them cheap and in quantity.  though based off of the Lola III hull, I expect thier capabilities to be more in line with the Lola I or II more for the reason of cost cutting then anything else.

I'm not sure that was the intent of the Caspar system. The huge cost of the system has been raised more than once and Johnathan Cameron wasn't exactly worried about manpower. He was terrified of invasion (the dreams) and wanted every advantage he could get.

[Weirdo]

Besides, this is also the government that built 400 Sovetskii Soyuz as part of their plan to rapidly build up their navy on a budget. Cheap and mass-produced are two terms with very different meanings for the Star League as compared to...well, any other organization in history.