Explain to me the Taurian Concordat.

[Stormfury]

And yes, I was talking from an IC perspective... which is why the war started. Although I do have a theory about the Protector hiring them and then shooting them down... from an OOC perspective we still don't know what the Urakhai were doing, nor will we ever know.

I linked to a post from Roosterboy to a section of another thread where the Urukhai's arrival over Taurus was being discussed. Far from us not knowing from an OOC perspective what they were doing there (they wanted a new contract, preferably one that might let them have a go at the Suns) and we even know that from an IC perspective that Shraplen was aware of that before he ordered his forces to attack. The Urukhai in-system responded by defending themselves, and when the rest of the unit arrived they were not terribly impressed by Taurian treatment of their bretheren. As ever, you reap what you sow.

The Taurians neither fought for or against the Blakist forces. They accepted aid from the phone company, aid they've been receiving for at least 6-8 years by then. WoB allied themselves with the Taurians in the Taurian's war, manipulated and ued for their own purposes sure, but TDF, Taurian Council nor the Taurian Protector were not involved in (knowingly) fighting for WoB. They were allies, not a mutual defense pact in the way the Cicnerians or Alyset Marik was.

I'm not really sure how a state can be the Word's ally and launch attacks at their prompting that support its cause without fighting for the Word.

[Medron Pryde]

What is the Taurian Concordat?

As many have said, it is similar to the Thirteen Colonies, especially earlier in history, when they first left.  There to get away from everything and everybody and God help anybody who tells them what to do.

Later on in history, it is much like the Republic of Texas or the Old West as I always saw it.

The interesting thing is that the original writers of the Taurian Concordat also mixed that "wild frontier" attitude in with "old culture" attitudes like a bias towards human rights and education and stuff like that, plus it built most of the original really cool BattleMechs and vehicles that players love.

In short, the TC as it was written was a sandbox you could play in and enjoy, both from a cultural and from a military standpoint.

It has of course been changed in recent publications, though the Calderon Protectorate has taken up the majority of what made the TC fun to play.

That is probably why most TC fans seem to be shifting over to the CP, unless of course they were totally burned off the subject in general by the constant anti-TC paranoia.

[Deadborder]

What anti-TC paranoia? The only paranoia is that which comes form the TC proper. Either that or the TC fans who seem to take the opinion that the writers are out to personally ruin their fun.

Otherwise, no offence, but your description could be any CBT faction.

[Alain Dumont]

Probably meant either "constant anti-FS paranoia," or "constant TC paranoia." 

[cavalier1645]

I get most of the other states in the BTU; they can be summed up in short (if a bit simplistic) phrases like "Vegas in SPAAAAACE" (for my favored MoC), or "Ancient Rome in SPAAAAACE," or "Samurai in SPAAAAAACE," etc.

But I still don't get the TC.  I'd really like to, as they are (or were, briefly), the third party of the Trinity Alliance.  But all I see when I look at them is the "The Davions are coming!" schtick.   I know there's more there, I just can't get it into focus. 


What's their flavor supposed to be?

Survivalists in Space

Seams to me there the people who want to be left alone and not be bother by anyone.  Plus there willing to shoot any one who crosses their borders :)

[foxbat]

I get most of the other states in the BTU; they can be summed up in short (if a bit simplistic) phrases like "Vegas in SPAAAAACE" (for my favored MoC), or "Ancient Rome in SPAAAAACE," or "Samurai in SPAAAAAACE," etc.

But I still don't get the TC.  I'd really like to, as they are (or were, briefly), the third party of the Trinity Alliance.  But all I see when I look at them is the "The Davions are coming!" schtick.   I know there's more there, I just can't get it into focus. 


What's their flavor supposed to be?

With ships names "Wincheter" or Wagon Wheel", they have a distinct Old West Frontier flavour for me.  ;)

[Trajan Helmer]

Now I'm jonesing for a Taurian WarShip class called the "Peacemaker."

[cavalier1645]

Survivalists in Space

Seams to me there the people who want to be left alone and not be bother by anyone.  Plus there willing to shoot any one who crosses their borders :)

Addendum

People who want to be left alone, who will shoot anyone who comes across their borders. Plus so utterly paranoid about their neighbor that they attack them with slightest provocation (real or imagine)

[Der Kommissar]

They see threats when they're not their, and they havn't learned how to forget an attack from over 500 years ago.

Not a uniquely Taurian feature.  The Federated Suns still ties itself in knots over the Kentares Massacre.  And such institutionalized hatred and fear is something you see throughout real world history.

[Auman]

Not a uniquely Taurian feature.  The Federated Suns still ties itself in knots over the Kentares Massacre.  And such institutionalized hatred and fear is something you see throughout real world history.

Sometimes you see it turned on its head though... How long ago was it that the French gifted the United States with the statue of liberty?

[Medron Pryde]

Addendum

People who want to be left alone, who will shoot anyone who comes across their borders. Plus so utterly paranoid about their neighbor that they attack them with slightest provocation (real or imagine)

To be fair, it took a crazy non-Calderon leader and a nearly complete replacement of the entire chain of command of the Taurian Defense Forces to get enough crazy Returners in place to do that.

And if you look at the maps, the Taurians who CAN leave that little town ARE leaving that little town...

[elizibar]

And if you look at the maps, the Taurians who CAN leave that little town ARE leaving that little town...

Those Taurians are called "traitors" and will be dealt with in due time by the true spirit of the Bull!

[Trajan Helmer]

They'll have to better than the Brahma to have a chance to win.

[Stormfury]

To be fair, it took a crazy non-Calderon leader and a nearly complete replacement of the entire chain of command of the Taurian Defense Forces to get enough crazy Returners in place to do that.

If it were an isolated event and your theories about Shraplen remodelling the entire offier corps had any evidence to support it, that may be a defensible argument.

However, the Taurians have demonstrated the same disposition throughout their entire history with the Suns and there is not only nothing to indicate Shraplen weilded that kind of power but direct evidence to the contrary.

[Deadborder]

Agreed.

There's not one piece of evidence to support that claim; if Shraplen was deliberately retiring those who disagreed with him and seeding the TDF with people loyal to him or the like, then it would have been mentioned in FM:Periphery, FM:Updates or any one of several other sources. As it stands, there's not one shred to support that argument.

Again, show me something that proves the point (And no, replacement of names on lists is not evidence, given we know nothing about said names) and I'll conceed, but in the meantime there's a lack of weight to your argument

[Stormfury]

Not only that, but Shraplen using his position to place specific officers in command positions is a rare and noteworthy enough event that we know about a single example of it.

Running a broom through the entire officer corps is right out.

[Medron Pryde]

Agreed.

There's not one piece of evidence to support that claim; if Shraplen was deliberately retiring those who disagreed with him and seeding the TDF with people loyal to him or the like, then it would have been mentioned in FM:Periphery, FM:Updates or any one of several other sources. As it stands, there's not one shred to support that argument.

Again, show me something that proves the point (And no, replacement of names on lists is not evidence, given we know nothing about said names) and I'll conceed, but in the meantime there's a lack of weight to your argument

I've explained the reasoning before.  I've showed which ones were promoted.  Every single Corps Commander was released and replaced under Sharplen, only three of the new commanders had any experience of battalion or higher, and two of THEM came from Pleiades regiments.  Sharplen was an ally of the Returners.

Of the rest of the army, only two thirds of the commanders had ANY experience commanding battalions or better under the Calderons.

This is a very clear replacement of the command structure of the TDF under Sharplen.

And that new command structure, with minimal high level command history, promoted under a Protector who was friends with the Returners and a Senior Marshal who WAS a Returner, was the command structure that attacked the Federated Suns, invaded the Pleaides Cluster, and from what we understand initiated the use of weapons of mass destruction.

Colonel Albritten, commander of the Pleiades Hussars in 3064, is a close personal friend of Shraplen, his appointment "certainly political" and he was promoted over several more qualified men.  Page 62 of FM Periphery.  That regiment started the incident on Midale.

Colonel Teresa Danielle, commander of the Third Taurian Lancers, a new regiment formed by Shraplen, is a another old friend of Shraplen, and THAT regiment is the one driving vehicles through the command post of the mercenary Vandelay's Valkyries.  She is also not a tactician and relies on lower officers for advice on how to fight.  Obviously not enough.

It was the Pleiades Hussars who took the raid on Lindsay and turned it into an invasion of the Pleaides Cluster "without orders."

The entire war with the Federated Suns, and its escalation in nature, was started by friends of Sharplen placed into positions of control by political maneuvering.

You can say that means nothing all you want, but it doesn't change the facts that that is what happened.

[Deadborder]

I'm not arguing the evidence that supports that, yes, every Corps commander was replaced during that period. That much is there in the books, and I'm not arguing that fact. What I'm saying is that there is no proof that those that stood down or were replaced (or whatever) did such because they were forced out of their positions by Shraplen so that he could staff the TDF with those loyal to him.

We have, from memory, not a single explanation of why any of those Corps commanders stood down/retired/were replaced/whatever. There's not a single example given of a prior commander being forced out or into retirement or the like; nor save for one noted example, any evidence that their replacements were picked specifically for their political loyalties.

Again, there's not a single shred of evidence to support the claim that Shraplen was forcing those officers out of position. If it had occurred, then there would be some note of it or some indication of it or something in any one of the numerous sources covering the TDF. As it stands, there's nothing to support that claim beyond your own speculation.

Fact is, the TDF that was gleefully committing atrocities under Shraplen and Tharn's leadership was the same TDF that had served the Calderons. There's no sudden shift, no cultural change, no sudden change in thinking.

[Stormfury]

All of the "evidence" boils down to "between the 20-Year Update and FM: U, most unit commanders were replaced."

Regardless of which state you look at, the overwhelming majority of officers remain in the same place between 3025(ish) and 3050. Then by the time you get to FM: U most of that crop has been replaced.

This is just as true for nations that bore the brunt of the Clan Invasion and/or had a civil war as those that remained largely out of combat.

Oddly enough, over a period of two decades you get some flux in the higher ranks. When only those who hold regimental command or regimental XO rank are named and there are only a handful of regiments any way, the odds of getting someone from outside those lists skyrockets.

[Warclaw]

I'd say that there isn't enough canon evidence to definitively say either way.

Both Medron Pryde AND Stormfury have very valid points. 

Yes, the majority of higher command positions were replaced, and most likely stacked with, if not direct Shraplen supporters/allies, then Officers aligned with his political faction.  (Nothing too overtly unusual about this, pretty much any serving head of state is going to do the same thing)

Also, Yes, it was a fairly good chunk of time, and since the Officers in question were Regimental commanders and higher at the previous point, they can be assumed to have been fairly senior men and women, with at LEAST twenty years service behind them.  A good number of them retiring sheerly out of time in service issues would not be unusual, or any solid indicator of a conspiracy.

Did the TDF commit atrocities?...yes.  We can argue until the cows come home about why, but the fact remains that they did.  Personally, and speaking purely for myself, my feeling is that a combination of factors played into it.  One:  essentially Decades of anti-Davion propaganda at all levels of Taurian Society.  Two, a predisposition towards suspicion of the Inner Sphere Powers, and Davion in particular.  Three, a command staff stacked with members of the Returner faction.  And four, outside powers (Word of Blake) meddling in things by stoking the above factors and possibly playing with communications.

Is it POSSIBLE that there was a conspiracy?  Yes

Is there sufficient canon "Proof"?  unfortunately No.

But then again, a properly executed conspiracy is VERY hard to prove.  Done right, every move will be easily explainable and justifiable on its own.  None of the individual moves would, or should, elicit suspicion.  That's really the whole POINT of a secret conspiracy, not getting caught. 

Of course, this is also Battletech.  Conspiracies and secret cabals plotting mischief behind the scenes might not be a certainty, but they are also a fairly safe bet.  Proving it now...there's the rub.

[Stormfury]

I'd say that there isn't enough canon evidence to definitively say either way.

I'd say there is.

We know of only a handful of Taurian officers who are not like Shraplen or Tharn; Brenda Calderon (retired), Cham Kithrong (seceeded), and Hadji Doru (in exile).

That is literally it. Everyone else we know of in the TDF (and most of the Concordat at large) is already marching to the same tune.

Is it POSSIBLE that there was a conspiracy?  Yes

The sourcebook matierial in the Field Manuals is written by Shraplen's opponents. It's not like you have to work hard to paint him in a bad light, but even so there is a single case of Shraplen (ab)using his position to promote someone via nepotism.

When the vast majority of the TDF is already stacked with people who support Shraplen and his policies, there is absolutely no reason to posit a conspiracy. And there is even less evidence to suggest one existed at all.

Frankly, the turnover in the officer corps comes entirely down to age. Battalion command is usually earned around the age of 30 in BT, regimental command in the 45-50 range. By 3050, the Taurian officer corps (thanks to what I suspect was a cut-and-paste job with the 3025-era TO&E to the 20-Year Update for every faction) is ~55 years for (former) battalion commanders/XOs (FM: P is the first time we get Majors) and ~75 for regimental commanders. By 3067, that bloats out to 72 and 92. Any wonder why, by 3058, so many officers have been replaced?

Catalyst and later FanPro/FASA sources seemed to cotton on to the unrealistic nature of a static officer corps over such long periods of time. It still causes problems; Boris Tharn is 66 in 3067, yet was supposed to hold battalion command rank in the 3020s.

Of course, this is also Battletech.  Conspiracies and secret cabals plotting mischief behind the scenes might not be a certainty, but they are also a fairly safe bet.  Proving it now...there's the rub.

If the Concordat had taken a sudden and uncharacteristic turn, perhaps. When it is simply conducting business as usual, the same way it has for centuries, positing a conspiracy seems a bit of a stretch.

[Warclaw]

If the Concordat had taken a sudden and uncharacteristic turn, perhaps. When it is simply conducting business as usual, the same way it has for centuries, positing a conspiracy seems a bit of a stretch.

You mean like say...shifting from a national policy of armed DEFENSE, (Albeit a fairly paranoid one), to becoming an expansionist, aggressive invader?

[Bergie]

What drew me to the Taurian Concordat was that it seemed the most. . . for lack of a better word, liberal to me.  The society was far more open than many other nations, with many canon references to the arts and literature.  They were decently technologically advanced, had a well maintained, decently large, and well trained military.  They also seemed to be the closest to 'democracy' of many of the CBT nations, with a distinct Social responsibility in the nobles.  Add to this the flaw (which was less pronounced in earlier iterations and references to the Concordat) of the Davion paranoia, and this simply was the best nation for me.

Since then, I've been disappointed in what has happened to the Concordat in terms of having their liberal attitudes subverted by the needs of a mad war against the Davions.  I dislike how the military went from being well-trained and well equipped to. . . basically the rabble of the Periphery.  I dislike how they have lost some of their best worlds to the Davions in favour of some burned out hulks of planets (of their own making).  I hate how, basically through fiat, the Marians and the Canopans were made awesome and the Taurians were made less so.

Of course, as seen with the Capellans, it is entirely possible for 'beaten' nations to get their time in the sun.  I love that the Taurians have gotten more 'screen time' than they used to, even if it is almost universally bad for them.  I have great hopes that the Calderon Protectorate will rejoin the Concordat (one way, or another) and return the "Taurian" Culture.  I hope that this new nation can reclaim at least some of their worlds lost to the Davions and Capellans.  I hope that this allows them to overcome some of their paranoia.

Failing that, I hope that they go down fighting in a funeral pyre that spreads to both Sian and New Avalon! ;)

[Stormfury]

You mean like say...shifting from a national policy of armed DEFENSE, (Albeit a fairly paranoid one), to becoming an expansionist, aggressive invader?

Yeah, not like they have prior form with Malagrotta, Case Amber, or a host of other incidents.

Since then, I've been disappointed in what has happened to the Concordat in terms of having their liberal attitudes subverted by the needs of a mad war against the Davions.  I dislike how the military went from being well-trained and well equipped to. . . basically the rabble of the Periphery.

How the Taurians see themselves does not always match the reality of the situation.

[jeyar]

Yeah, not like they have prior form with Malagrotta, Case Amber, or a host of other incidents.

While I can see ways to look at Malagrotta as expansionist...

Case Amber is now expansionist?

You say a host of other incidents. Prior to joining the Trinity alliance, what host of other incidents?

[Warclaw]

Malagrotta Affair :  The incident occurred in February of 2573  approximately 500 years before the current era.

Case Amber:  Occurred in 2577  Again, roughly 500 years BCE

Got anything more recent?  Because I rather doubt you'd accept 500 year old evidence of Davion treachery in the Current era.  Sauce for the Goose....

[Bergie]

Alas, you're argument is flawed by the fact that there wasn't anything really written about the Concordat (and any other Periphery realm) between the End of the Star League and 3025.  There just wasn't.  There might be plenty of instances of Davion raids and attacks on Taurian Worlds, which in the scope of the Succession Wars would be minor, but to a nation as small as the Concordat, would be proof of the Davion's Barbarism.

[Stormfury]

While I can see ways to look at Malagrotta as expansionist...

What other ways are there to look at it than aggressive and expansionist? A Taurian WarShip flotilla "accidentally" mis-jumps into a de-militarised zone, claims equipment failure, and then instead of holding position to recharge and leave or approaching the Taurian facility, they head straight towards the FedSuns base. The conclusions on the face of it are obvious, never mind Brenda Calderon stating in FM: P that the incident was far from accidental; the Concordat wanted to gauge the Suns' defensive strength and willingness to fight. Ooops.

Case Amber is now expansionist?

It was aggressive, hardly a defence-focused initiative.

You say a host of other incidents. Prior to joining the Trinity alliance, what host of other incidents?

Their actions prior to the Amaris Civil War. Their blitz on the Magistracy. Like it or not, the TDF has the dubious distinction of being the standing military used more often to begin assaults on others rather than repelling invasions, a tradition that stretches all the way back to the nation's infancy.

They defended during the Reunification War, though even that was in response to their launching Case Amber. They defended against Kerensky's assault, though that was precipitated by their direct provocation of both the Star League and Federated Suns, and was conducted due to Amaris' machinations.

Offensively? Malagrotta, Case Amber, 200 Hours War, the response to the Urukhai's arrival, the Pleiades Campaign.

It is not new or unusual. If the TDF was actually focused on providing national defence, the situation would be markedly different. The Concordat says that is what it is for, but compared to the Outworlds Alliance military, which actually is a defensive formation, well...

[Warclaw]

Malagrotta and Case Amber...both 500 years BCE.

200 hours war...250 years BCE.  Regarded as a an expensive mistake and the only national periphery war for almost 200 years.

The response to the Urukhai?  How is dealing with an uninvited military force in your HOME system not defensive?  Granted, it was probably out of proportion and a massive overreaction, but regardless, the TC weren't the ones out hunting.

As for the Pleiades?  That's pretty much the incident in question that we're saying is out of character.  I don't think you get to use that one as "Proof".  Rather circular logic otherwise.

There WAS plenty of the usual border raiding, along pretty much every border, from ALL sides.  (Except perhaps the OA, but I'm not that familiar with that faction)  But border raiding does not an expansionist power make.

[Stormfury]

Malagrotta and Case Amber...both 500 years BCE.

200 hours war...250 years BCE.  Regarded as a an expensive mistake and the only national periphery war for almost 200 years.

Events in the past that clearly demonstrate an established pattern.

The response to the Urukhai?  How is dealing with an uninvited military force in your HOME system not defensive?  Granted, it was probably out of proportion and a massive overreaction, but regardless, the TC weren't the ones out hunting.

The response to the Urukhai was to attack a mercenary unit that they knew was only there for a contract (Roosterboy has posted this before, too...), get huffy when the rest of the unit showed up looking for blood, and then conclude that Duke Hasek was five seconds away from launching an all-out assault on the Taurian Concordat despite having no troops in position, no preperations to that effect, and was already happily engaged in attacking the Capellan Confederation, so the best thing to do was to attack four enemy worlds.

The Urukhai were not on the offensive. The Concordat still attacked them (out of paranioa), then went on the warpath against the Suns (again, out of paranoia). The same way the TDF has repeatedly acted over centuries.

As for the Pleiades?  That's pretty much the incident in question that we're saying is out of character.  I don't think you get to use that one as "Proof".  Rather circular logic otherwise.

If you're going to dismiss all prior instances in which the TDF did the same thing and all of the many repeated references in canon to the Concrdat's paranoiac outlook on their neighbours, then yes. I suppose there is no "proof" that the Pleiades campaign was out of character.