Which clan will fall next / should I support?

[Guardsman]

If you really want to understand the "Clan Jade Wolf" thing, read the book Malicious Intent.  It clarifies that whole thing very nicely.

I have, it still makes no sense, at least when you compare it to uh, Warriors of Kerensky. Nothing about that whole mess makes any sense by the way they describe Clan law.

[joechummer]

I have, it still makes no sense, at least when you compare it to uh, Warriors of Kerensky. Nothing about that whole mess makes any sense by the way they describe Clan law.

Read the section about Khans' powers in Warriors of Kerensky.  Essentially what Crichell did was an obscure Khan's power, the reverse of an Absorption, where you split your existing Clan in two.  After Absorbing the Wolves, he split the Jade Falcon/Wolf combination into two Clans: Jade Falcon (for himself) and Jade Wolf (for Vlad).  Vlad was voted Khan of the Jade Wolves and then turned around 2 weeks later and exercised his powers as Khan to do the exact same thing as Crichell did.  He reverse-Absorbed the Jade Wolves into two Clans: Jade Wolf and Wolf. Then, he moved ALL of the Jade Wolves into this new Clan Wolf, and since the Jade Wolves effectively had no more members, it just ceased to exist.

Since the Wolves-in-Exile were Abjured and the Wolves that remained behind were Absorbed into the Falcons, Vlad's new Wolf Clan is technically a wholly different entity than the original, pre-split Clan Wolf.  It just happens to have the same name and the same roster (more or less) than the original, post-split/pre-Absorption Clan Wolf did.  Think of the Wolves-in-Exile as Clan Wolf 1.0 and Vlad's Wolves as Clan Wolf 2.0, which overwrote the original with its own data.

[Guardsman]

Read the section about Khans' powers in Warriors of Kerensky.  Essentially what Crichell did was an obscure Khan's power, the reverse of an Absorption, where you split your existing Clan in two.  After Absorbing the Wolves, he split the Jade Falcon/Wolf combination into two Clans: Jade Falcon (for himself) and Jade Wolf (for Vlad).  Vlad was voted Khan of the Jade Wolves and then turned around 2 weeks later and exercised his powers as Khan to do the exact same thing as Crichell did.  He reverse-Absorbed the Jade Wolves into two Clans: Jade Wolf and Wolf. Then, he moved ALL of the Jade Wolves into this new Clan Wolf, and since the Jade Wolves effectively had no more members, it just ceased to exist.

Since the Wolves-in-Exile were Abjured and the Wolves that remained behind were Absorbed into the Falcons, Vlad's new Wolf Clan is technically a wholly different entity than the original, pre-split Clan Wolf.  It just happens to have the same name and the same roster (more or less) than the original, post-split/pre-Absorption Clan Wolf did.  Think of the Wolves-in-Exile as Clan Wolf 1.0 and Vlad's Wolves as Clan Wolf 2.0, which overwrote the original with its own data.

It’s been a while since I looked at it in depth, but even a cursory glance at the trial makes little sense. The Grand Council says Ulric sucks. He says no I don’t and says he’ll defend with Clan Wolf. How can an ilKhan bid an entire Clan? He is no longer Khan of that Clan. Ok, so they go along with it, they like him. Ignore that tricky bit of legal limbo. So the bid is Clan Wolf defending Ulric’s leadership. Ulric dies while fighting alongside Clan Wolf. How does that end the trial? 1) Most of the combatants bid are still alive, and 2) Clan Wolf was winning up to that point. Pretty much from there, it gets even more weird.

[joechummer]

It’s been a while since I looked at it in depth, but even a cursory glance at the trial makes little sense. The Grand Council says Ulric sucks. He says no I don’t and says he’ll defend with Clan Wolf. How can an ilKhan bid an entire Clan? He is no longer Khan of that Clan. Ok, so they go along with it, they like him. Ignore that tricky bit of legal limbo. So the bid is Clan Wolf defending Ulric’s leadership. Ulric dies while fighting alongside Clan Wolf. How does that end the trial? 1) Most of the combatants bid are still alive, and 2) Clan Wolf was winning up to that point. Pretty much from there, it gets even more weird.

The Refusal War's pretty easy to understand.  As to your points:

A) Ulric was accused of genocide for engineering the Truce of Tukayyid and forcing an entire generation of Clan warriors to stagnate. It wasn't just that the others didn't like him.  When he was declared guilty, he was stripped of the ilKhanship.  He wasn't ilKhan when he called for the Trial of Refusal; he reverted to his previous rank of Star Colonel due to there not being any Khan posts open in Clan Wolf.

B) High ranking Clan officials can choose to have a champion or proxy fight in his stead or at his side.  Ulric used his power to bid all of Clan Wolf in his Trial of Refusal, because he knew Natasha and Phelan would back his bid.  The Falcons, seeing this as a golden opportunity to cripple their hated enemies, bid their entire Clan in return.

C) In a Trial of Refusal, if the person who invoked the trial is killed in the battle, their side automatically loses.  Natasha's death was a big blow to the Clan, sure, but she didn't call for the Trial.  Ulric's death, OTOH, ended the whole Refusal War on the spot, despite how well the Wolves were actually performing at that point.

[Guardsman]

The Refusal War's pretty easy to understand.  As to your points:

A) Ulric was accused of genocide for engineering the Truce of Tukayyid and forcing an entire generation of Clan warriors to stagnate. It wasn't just that the others didn't like him.  When he was declared guilty, he was stripped of the ilKhanship.  He wasn't ilKhan when he called for the Trial of Refusal; he reverted to his previous rank of Star Colonel due to there not being any Khan posts open in Clan Wolf.

B) High ranking Clan officials can choose to have a champion or proxy fight in his stead or at his side.  Ulric used his power to bid all of Clan Wolf in his Trial of Refusal, because he knew Natasha and Phelan would back his bid.  The Falcons, seeing this as a golden opportunity to cripple their hated enemies, bid their entire Clan in return.

C) In a Trial of Refusal, if the person who invoked the trial is killed in the battle, their side automatically loses.  Natasha's death was a big blow to the Clan, sure, but she didn't call for the Trial.  Ulric's death, OTOH, ended the whole Refusal War on the spot, despite how well the Wolves were actually performing at that point.

Okay, assuming I agree with everything said to this point, since I’m not familiar enough with the source material anymore (my way of saying I’m accepting it as fact for now, but reserving the right to later discuss if and when I re-read some of this stuff), what right does the winner of a trial of refusal have to claim the surviving losers when they were not subject of the trial, only the champions / proxies thereof. I’m also leaving the fact that Ulric was assassinated unsaid, since at the time, no one knew about the assassination.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I still say A) is really dumb.  "He gained all this territory for us to trial over.  He's obviously trying to keep us from being able to fight and prove ourselves!"  By that logic, every ilKhan ever who didn't invade the IS is guilty of the same thing. 

[Guardsman]

I still say A) is really dumb.  "He gained all this territory for us to trial over.  He's obviously trying to keep us from being able to fight and prove ourselves!"  By that logic, every ilKhan ever who didn't invade the IS is guilty of the same thing. 

Warden or not, Ulric Kerensky’s ilKhanship would have proven beneficial in the long run to the Crusader Cause in a Crusader dominated Grand Council. Only Clan Wolf won both objectives at Tukayyid. Had the rest of the Clans pulled their weight, Terra would have been theirs by now.

[Trajan Helmer]

Only Clan Wolf won both objectives at Tukayyid. Had the rest of the Clans pulled their weight, Terra would have been theirs by now.

Psychopompous has an excellent series of articles on Tukayyid on his blog:

http://psychopompousgb.xanga.com/729528516/the-tukayyid-campaign-introduction/

Check it out. Comstar won because they were able to shift troops to other theaters. As Psychopompous notes, this was the primary reason for their victory. If the Nova Cats or Steel Vipers had managed to stay on-planet for an extra day to two occupying those forces arrayed against them, there would have been a cascade of defeats, resulting in a near complete victory by the Clans.

[jklantern]

Psychopompous has an excellent series of articles on Tukayyid on his blog:

http://psychopompousgb.xanga.com/729528516/the-tukayyid-campaign-introduction/

Check it out. Comstar won because they were able to shift troops to other theaters. As Psychopompous notes, this was the primary reason for their victory. If the Nova Cats or Steel Vipers had managed to stay on-planet for an extra day to two occupying those forces arrayed against them, there would have been a cascade of defeats, resulting in a near complete victory by the Clans.

Of course those wussy Reserve Clans wouldn't be able to-

*Gets hit by an assortment of Lasers*

Remind me not to pick a fight with dedicated fans.

[Nanaki]

If the Nova Cats or Steel Vipers had managed to stay on-planet for an extra day to two occupying those forces arrayed against them, there would have been a cascade of defeats, resulting in a near complete victory by the Clans.

I love it when someone mixes in their personal opinions with someone else's studies and tries to peddle it off as truth.

Edit: Actually, Trajan, your personal opinions directly contradict what Psychopompous actually said in his studies.

[Trajan Helmer]

I love it when someone mixes in their personal opinions with someone else's studies and tries to peddle it off as truth.

Edit: Actually, Trajan, your personal opinions directly contradict what Psychopompous actually said in his studies.

Oh. Obviously I misremembered a lot then. I read that while I was recovering from a painful car wreck last December. Lesson learned.

[Nanaki]

Oh. Obviously I misremembered a lot then. I read that while I was recovering from a painful car wreck last December. Lesson learned.

I finished reading all the articles, and I noticed that the finger-pointing was fairly inconsistant and went all over the place... The Bears article blamed the Cats, the Viper article blamed both Bears and Cats, the Diamond Sharks article blamed the Jaguars. Only the Nova Cat, Falcon, Wolf, and Jaguar articles actually avoided finger-pointing. It can be very easily said that the finger-pointing was just author bias leaking into the article.

[Trajan Helmer]

I finished reading all the articles, and I noticed that the finger-pointing was fairly inconsistant and went all over the place... The Bears article blamed the Cats, the Viper article blamed both Bears and Cats, the Diamond Sharks article blamed the Jaguars. Only the Nova Cat, Falcon, Wolf, and Jaguar articles actually avoided finger-pointing. It can be very easily said that the finger-pointing was just author bias leaking into the article.

Just reread them. I saw the finger pointing as generally neutral conjecture on what caused the overall defeat of the Clans. With all the inconsistencies we've seen in Tukayyid's canon, I thought PP's articles as a great attempt to make sense of what happened. Prior to this, I didn't really care about what happened at the overall battle, I just looked the the canon result.

[Hawkeye Jim]

Prior to Tukayyid, most of the Clans assumed that their genetic superirity would naturally give them victory. They were not aware of how much of their success was due to their equipment. When Comstar entered the picture, the equipment advantage wasn't so great. Their poorer tactical abilities showed up instead.

[GreyJaeger]

Prior to Tukayyid, most of the Clans assumed that their genetic superirity would naturally give them victory. They were not aware of how much of their success was due to their equipment. When Comstar entered the picture, the equipment advantage wasn't so great. Their poorer tactical abilities showed up instead.

I would not say tactical abilities necessarily, although it was compromised by the typical Clanner's arrogance. I personally would say it was more the Clan's mindset. The Clans believed themselves, their Warriors, their equipment, their way of life to be completely superior. Their style of conflict favors quick, decisive campaigns, on both the tactical and strategic level. Comstar denied them that. The Clans, believing their Warriors and machines superior, failed to overcome their arrogance, which led to their overall defeat. Keep in mind though, that even with all of Comstar's advantages at Tukkayyid, it was still a very close thing.

Problem is, many Clans, not just the Wolves, prior to Tukkayyid showed that they can alter their style of fighting to better suit the fighting seen in the IS. It could be argued that Tukkayyid was much more a clash of cultures rather than a true military conflict.

[joechummer]

Prior to Tukayyid, most of the Clans assumed that their genetic superirity would naturally give them victory. They were not aware of how much of their success was due to their equipment. When Comstar entered the picture, the equipment advantage wasn't so great. Their poorer tactical abilities showed up instead.

Another big deciding factor was the Clans, being so used to short, quick engagements (this being the reason they don't have portable toilets or other necessities common to Spheroid cockpits) did not bring enough ammunition with them.  The Vipers ran out in their first engagement, if I recall, and didn't have the means to resupply, and a few of the other Clans had supply problems as well.  Of all seven Clans that fought on Tukayyid, only the Wolves had the foresight to equip their OmniMechs with mostly energy weapons.

Logistics -- not tactics, strategy, equipment, or personnel -- is so often the deciding factor of wars.  For example, I've heard several historians argue that the German army was overwhelmed in WWII because their lack of mobility and mechanization compared to Allied forces.  Sure they had tanks, but you'd be surprised how much of their personnel and materiel were still being transported around by horse-drawn carts and buggies.

That's right, folks.  Jeeps and their ilk were what helped put an end to WWII (in Europe, at least)  :D

[Guardsman]

Another big deciding factor was the Clans, being so used to short, quick engagements (this being the reason they don't have portable toilets or other necessities common to Spheroid cockpits) did not bring enough ammunition with them.  The Vipers ran out in their first engagement, if I recall, and didn't have the means to resupply, and a few of the other Clans had supply problems as well.  Of all seven Clans that fought on Tukayyid, only the Wolves had the foresight to equip their OmniMechs with mostly energy weapons.

Logistics -- not tactics, strategy, equipment, or personnel -- is so often the deciding factor of wars.  For example, I've heard several historians argue that the German army was overwhelmed in WWII because their lack of mobility and mechanization compared to Allied forces.  Sure they had tanks, but you'd be surprised how much of their personnel and materiel were still being transported around by horse-drawn carts and buggies.

That's right, folks.  Jeeps and their ilk were what helped put an end to WWII (in Europe, at least)  :D

The Wolves were the ‘good’ Clan, the protagonist Clan, the one with things you could relate to. They had advantages offered to them, and they did not squander them. Clan Goliath Scorpion’s lessons in ancient Inner Sphere warfare helped prepare the Dragoons. The Oberon Confederation served a similar purpose to the invasion forces. And from it, they gleamed a Khan among other things. It’s kind of sad but understandable that when originally written, the Wolves were the only ‘good’ Clan. Now there are others who fit that mould, but were temporary ruled by fools either during the invasion vote or at Tukayyid. Its only in years later that they redeemed half of them.

[ABADDON]

Logistics -- not tactics, strategy, equipment, or personnel -- is so often the deciding factor of wars.  For example, I've heard several historians argue that the German army was overwhelmed in WWII because their lack of mobility and mechanization compared to Allied forces.  Sure they had tanks, but you'd be surprised how much of their personnel and materiel were still being transported around by horse-drawn carts and buggies.

That's right, folks.  Jeeps and their ilk were what helped put an end to WWII (in Europe, at least)  :D

That's bonkers.

There were several reasons why The Reich lost WW2. But clearly not just because they were too stupid to use advanced transport technology. In fact, technologically Nazi Germany had a clear edge over western and eastern allied forces since 1942/43 in most military fields.
The problem however was that due to several reasons (but there's only one that should be of concern now, as it will allow me to come back to the horse-drawn carts you've mentioned) the Wehrmacht had not the numbers for their advanced equipment to turn the tide of the war as Germany's industrial production was severely hampered by US and British bombings. Those bombings were also the reason why, in the final days of the Reich, there might have been some reliance on horse carts regarding the Wehrmacht's logistical supply as a huge part of the railroad net in Germany and her occupied territories had been turned to rubble. Also the continuous bombings of German supply lines via truck had left their mark.
You see, it was not the horse carts that cost Nazi Germany the war, but the bomb war the western Allies had waged against Germany early on, among some other factors.

[Stockus13]

Well not to get off topic. Germany was losing after the Winter of 41. They lost 1 million men to the Russian winter. Logistics again...if they had food, clothes and ammo Moscow would have fallen that 1st Winter. Now that in itself would not have won the war, but having those men supplied would have saved 33% of the German army from death in the cold.

Oh and by the way the Blood Spirits wil die! Ahahahaha

[ABADDON]

If they wouldn't had to clean up the mess the Italians started (a country which was only able to defeat the armies of Ethiopia and... Albania on its own and was horribly kicked in the butt by the Greeks, Jugos and British) the Wehrmacht wouldn't even have had to face the russian winter. ;)
So should we consider "bad choice of allied nations" as a another factor, why they lost?  :P

Oh and again... from the beginning I could only see the three snakes come out of this one surviving more or less intact. After having read Ben's twitter posts, I'm pretty darn sure, that the others are going down.  :P

[God and Davion]

I think that it would be a good idea if we stop talking about WWII and getting back into topic.
Thank you!

 [copper]

[Guardsman]

I think that it would be a good idea if we stop talking about WWII and getting back into topic.
Thank you!

 [copper]

And talking about the Lyrans and the Free Worlds League in SWII doesn't count! ;D

[joechummer]

Anyway, the point I was making is that any army -- historical, imagined, or otherwise -- is only as good as its logistical backbone.  If you have the means to A) get your troops to the area of operations, B) deploy them in the AO in an effective manner, both defensively and offensively, C) maintain an infrastructure keep them fully supplied (for both tactical, strategic, and morale reasons), and D) the means to move your troops away from the battlefield (either for advancing, retreating, or redeployment), then your army is in the money.  Any one of those points breaks down or takes longer than the battle plan entails, and you can have a catastrophe on your hands.

The Wolves are the only ones who really addressed logistics with forethought in a way that worked.  Everyone else just scoffed until it was too late.

[Hawkeye Jim]

Part of the Clans problem was distance involved. In the Homeworlds, they were never more than a jump or two from their resupply. Once they got to the IS, their supply lines for their own supplies was much, much longer. If they ran out of the Clan tech, they had to use local equipment, and that negated much of their advantage.

[joechummer]

Hence the need for so much advance planning.  For example, if the Falcons hadn't scrapped their civilian/merchant fleet in the early Golden Century and had staggered the arrival of supplies on a regular schedule (say, every 2 weeks or so), they would've had steady traffic flowing into their OZ from the Exodus Road, meaning fresh supplies, new troops, and new materiel.

Now, if the Cobras had been an invading Clan, their propensity to plan whole generations ahead would've made the Wolves' logistical plans look like child's play  ;D

[Guardsman]

Hence the need for so much advance planning.  For example, if the Falcons hadn't scrapped their civilian/merchant fleet in the early Golden Century and had staggered the arrival of supplies on a regular schedule (say, every 2 weeks or so), they would've had steady traffic flowing into their OZ from the Exodus Road, meaning fresh supplies, new troops, and new materiel.

Now, if the Cobras had been an invading Clan, their propensity to plan whole generations ahead would've made the Wolves' logistical plans look like child's play  ;D

The Clan Invasion of the Inner Sphere was somewhat akin to Germany’s invasion of Russia. Sense of superiority? Check. Superior equipment? Check. Superior training? Check. Long supply line? Check. Disastrous result? Check.

[joechummer]

The only difference being that the Germans went back home after they lost too many troops.  The Clans stayed put (for the most part).   ;D

[Guardsman]

The only difference being that the Germans went back home after they lost too many troops.  The Clans stayed put (for the most part).   ;D

The Germans didn't give up Belarus and Ukraine at first, and unlike the Clans, they faced a war on multiple fronts.

[joechummer]

Well, if you consider the Clans as one single entity, they faced war on several fronts  ;D

[Railan Sradac]

The only difference being that the Germans went back home after they lost too many troops.  The Clans stayed put (for the most part).   ;D

Mmmm, to stretch the analogy, more like the Germans built houses out of the ruins of the Russian ones and chilled there for a while, lobbing the occasional artillery shell over the border.

Also Guardsman, what happened to the Philip Drummond avatar? That was a) awesome and b) sinister.