Author Topic: Canon Warship List  (Read 260615 times)

Blacknova

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #120 on: 13 July 2011, 00:10:37 »
Wow.  I have heard of ask and thou shall receive, but this is incredible.

Thanks very much  Moonsword, Jellico and Wierdo.
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Takiro

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #121 on: 13 July 2011, 05:11:37 »
Don't forget about McKenna's flagship, the Black Lion referred to as a Battlecruiser. Don't believe we've seen that class yet in canon.

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #122 on: 13 July 2011, 06:12:45 »
I have a spreadsheet that uses the information about what class replaced what and the production figures we have to try and work out service lives and in-class figures per decade. Will post it when I am not working from my phone.

Moonsword

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #123 on: 13 July 2011, 12:30:38 »
Don't forget about McKenna's flagship, the Black Lion referred to as a Battlecruiser. Don't believe we've seen that class yet in canon.

Assuming it's an unknown class, no, we haven't, but without more information, all we can do is speculate.  It may be an unknown class but I kind of doubt the Darts were originally referred to as light cruisers when they were very possibly the second most powerful ships in space on launch.  For that matter, the Dreadnoughts are in the same approximate bracket as the SLDF's high-end cruisers, so the author may have been classifying the design by more modern standards.

Wrangler

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #124 on: 13 July 2011, 13:23:35 »
The McKenna's Black Lion must appeared when his son was relieved of command if i remember correctly, when McKenna arrived to taken him back to Terra.

The ship could appear at time Monsoon came out as contemporary of the Battleship.  I hope the writers will consider highlighting such a ship and other "lost" Warships of the period.   I'm interested in seeing what the "early" pre-warships were suppose to be like.

Reunification war's rolling tables were showing ships that hadn't been introduced yet. We need early DropShip designs that aren't contemporaries.
« Last Edit: 13 July 2011, 13:25:33 by Wrangler »
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Moonsword

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #125 on: 13 July 2011, 13:30:16 »
The McKenna's Black Lion must appeared when his son was relieved of command if i remember correctly, when McKenna arrived to taken him back to Terra.

And that doesn't change anything I just said.

The ship could appear at time Monsoon came out as contemporary of the Battleship.

The Monsoon was introduced in 2368.  McKenna stopped needing a flagship in 2338.

Takiro

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #126 on: 13 July 2011, 15:03:09 »
Actually the SLSB (page 16) has the Director-General leading Campaigns of Persuasion from his battlecruiser the Black Lion. The time period indicated is 2316-2317.  The ship is quite specifically referred to as a battlecruiser and you would think if it was a Dreadnought it would have been mentioned. There are no Hegemony/League battlecruisers until the Cameron (2688). For these reasons I would contend there is a yet undetailed canon battlecruiser.

[I filled this niche, non-canon of course, with the Hegemony class Battlecruiser - see FM TR 2785 or TRO 2800 if your interested]

Moonsword

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #127 on: 13 July 2011, 15:07:49 »
You'd think FASA would have error-checked a lot of their work, too, and they didn't.  This has created messes CGL is still cleaning up.  If it's a new class - and it could well be, as I said at the time - I'd love to see it.  But I don't think we can just assume it is with nothing but one reference in an early FASA sourcebook.  The best thing to do would be to ask the writers and see if they're willing to give us some information.

Weirdo

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #128 on: 13 July 2011, 15:10:05 »
My thought is that Black Lion is either a heavily up-gunned JumpShip, like a large Aquila, or it actually is a Dreadnought, and the term battlecruiser was used by historians as a generic term for a large WarShip, much like how there are many folks who will refer to any combat vessel as a battleship, even if they're talking about a cruiser or destroyer.
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Takiro

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #129 on: 13 July 2011, 16:32:16 »
I'd love to see the canon battlecruiser design for the original Black Lion. Be interesting to see some of those hybrid warship classes especially from the Houses. I mean it took them 60 years to develop a warship - quite an advantage for the Hegemony.

Moonsword

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #130 on: 13 July 2011, 16:43:58 »
I'd love to see the canon battlecruiser design for the original Black Lion. Be interesting to see some of those hybrid warship classes especially from the Houses. I mean it took them 60 years to develop a warship - quite an advantage for the Hegemony.

It took most of them more like 70 to 80.  The only two to get it done before 2365 were the Federated Suns and the Taurians.  (Now there's an odd couple...)

DarthRads

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #131 on: 13 July 2011, 17:28:10 »
TR2750 in the initial WarShip fluff refers to ALL such vessels as battlecruisers and on several occassions in the old House Books they use the term as a generic one for WarShips.

I  always got the impression that the Cameron was the first such 'hybrid' design.

Weirdo

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #132 on: 13 July 2011, 18:39:34 »
Actually, I think the Tharkad predates both SL BCs, with the Cameron built in response to the Tharkad, and the Black Lion built in response to...well, the Cameron's lack of response.
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Moonsword

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #133 on: 13 July 2011, 19:11:03 »
Actually, I think the Tharkad predates both SL BCs, with the Cameron built in response to the Tharkad, and the Black Lion built in response to...well, the Cameron's lack of response.

*taps introduction list*  The Tharkad entered service two years after the Cameron's introduction in 2688.  Given that the Tharkad was designed in 2685 while the contract on the Camerons was issued in 2677, if there's a relationship between the two, it's likely to be the other way around if there was much influence.  Some statements indicate that it prompted the Black Lion's introduction in 2691, but given the close proximity of the introduction dates, I imagine the Black Lion program was actually started after someone realized exactly what a white elephant the Navy was about to receive with the Cameron.

The close proximity of all three, combined with the Tharkad and Black Lion both telling the heavy cruisers there was a new top dog short of the battleships, is probably what actually set off the arms race referred to in TRO3075.  One of the products of that arms race was likely the introduction of the Luxors in 2721 combined with an effort to bulk out the cruiser numbers that produced the massive number of Sovetskii Soyuzes that began entering service a couple of decades later.  (This is all assuming that TRO3057R's dates are correct, something I'm willing to accept for the sake of argument but will not assert as absolute truth.)

DarthRads

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #134 on: 15 July 2011, 19:11:56 »
I had a theory about the SovSoy and its mass production: The ship was designed, the design was then scaled back to minimum capabilities to maximise production rates. The resulting (lackluster) vessel would then be brought up to it's intended specs through its standard refit cycle. Result is 400 average ships produced REALLY fast, these would then be turned into powerful combatants later...unfortunatly thr 2nd Peripery Uprising and Coup scuttled these plans.

Jellico

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #135 on: 16 July 2011, 14:38:58 »
And here I was thinking the SLDF got a platform with 2/3 the firepower of a New Syrtis Carrier, twice the combat persistance and better stand off capability at considerably less cost.

Don't underestimate the Sov Soy. Naval combat in 2700 is about showing the flag and what the army might call counter insurgency operations. You don't want a Black Lion for that.

Weirdo

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #136 on: 16 July 2011, 16:59:48 »
Yep. Given how few heavy WarShips are in non-SL hands during the SovSoy's service life, it was more than capable of handling 90% of the space-based situations it might encounter(short of a berserk Atreus or Tharkad), and also made a very good flagship for a ground detachment, able to provide support in terms of logistics, DropShip transport, air support, orbital fire, and anything else you can think of. I also see the vessel used as a destroyer leader, serving as a command ship for a patrol squadron of Lolas and Vincents. A handful of such vessels could easily secure a major system, or patrol a number of systems, with the SovSoy waiting in a central location, able to jump to any location if one of the subordinate vessels encountered trouble.
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Moonsword

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #137 on: 16 July 2011, 17:14:30 »
Hey, don't look at me.  I just said it was a way to bulk out the numbers.  The Sovetskii Soyuz has a lot of virtues.  They're just not found in intense ship-to-ship combat.

Weirdo

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #138 on: 16 July 2011, 17:19:22 »
The Sovetskii Soyuz has a lot of virtues.  They're just not found in intense ship-to-ship combat.

Exactly! Remember, you're part of the SLDF, heir to the traditions of Terran Hegemony problem-solving: I kills it with my battleships.
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Moonsword

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #139 on: 16 July 2011, 17:52:33 »
Hmm.  Now I'm suddenly in the mood to make WarShip RATs for late SLN.  Balancing them would probably be a madhouse, though.
« Last Edit: 16 July 2011, 18:01:23 by Moonsword »

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #140 on: 16 July 2011, 18:05:59 »
Shouldn't be too hard. Put the destroyers in the 6-8 slots, the next common ones for Vincents and SovSoys, a slot each for a modern heavy cruiser or frigate, and save the BCs and BBs for the 2-3 or 11-12 slots. I'll admit the difficulty is choosing which ships to use, since the late SLN had more than eleven well-known classes. You could leave the Texas off, since it was supposed to be a rather rare vessel.
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Moonsword

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #141 on: 16 July 2011, 18:09:28 »
I was thinking one RAT for corvettes, one for destroyers, one for cruisers, and one for battlecruisers and battleships, but I'm crazy.

Weirdo

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #142 on: 16 July 2011, 18:12:11 »
Late SLN didn't have that many corvettes, so I imagine a corvette-only chart would actually be rather monotonous. Maybe one RAT for small ships, one for heavy ships?
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DarthRads

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #143 on: 16 July 2011, 18:16:03 »
Shouldn't be too hard. Put the destroyers in the 6-8 slots, the next common ones for Vincents and SovSoys, a slot each for a modern heavy cruiser or frigate, and save the BCs and BBs for the 2-3 or 11-12 slots. I'll admit the difficulty is choosing which ships to use, since the late SLN had more than eleven well-known classes. You could leave the Texas off, since it was supposed to be a rather rare vessel.

Why not a RAT for ship type (corvette, destroyer, cruiser, etc) and then secondary tables to determine class...

Moonsword

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #144 on: 16 July 2011, 18:19:29 »
Late SLN didn't have that many corvettes, so I imagine a corvette-only chart would actually be rather monotonous. Maybe one RAT for small ships, one for heavy ships?

Well, not completely 'late' but more representative of that period with a few dregs for spice.  Although you could fold it into the destroyer table.  There's so many cruisers that they really need their own table, plus there's two battleships and two battlecruisers.  Maybe include the old battleships at the extreme end of the table, weighted toward Farraguts with a freak chance for a Monsoon or Dreadnought. *shrugs*  Just an idea, really.

Jellico

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #145 on: 17 July 2011, 17:20:51 »
mmm. Battleships outnumbered cruisers by a fair margin in the late SLDF. I have a doc somewhere covering it all, but its worth noting that only the heavy cruisers (bar Sov Soy) and McKennas had LF batteries giving these ships some unique capabilities.

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #146 on: 17 July 2011, 17:50:12 »
mmm. Battleships outnumbered cruisers by a fair margin in the late SLDF. I have a doc somewhere covering it all, but its worth noting that only the heavy cruisers (bar Sov Soy) and McKennas had LF batteries giving these ships some unique capabilities.

There are plenty of cruisers...400 SovSoys alone (compared to 330 Texas+Mckenna)...According to the SLSB (pg 132) the SL had 500 naval bases with 2 destroyers and later 1 cruiser permanently on station, so the SLN had at least 1000 Destroyers and 500 cruisers
« Last Edit: 18 July 2011, 23:08:37 by DarthRads »

Jellico

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #147 on: 17 July 2011, 21:59:18 »
My appologies. Late SLDF cruisers split into a variety of roles. The Sov Soys were almost like the previous generation's frigates. The battle cruisers replaced the old battleships while the LF battery cruisers were something new and superceeded by the McKennas. After about 2600 you could no longer consider a cruiser to be a cut price battleship.

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #148 on: 18 July 2011, 14:28:36 »
Why not make a RAT with the most common warship, and have the rest with a second to-get number?

That way you could either get the ship that is common or one of the better ones.

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Re: Canon Warship List
« Reply #149 on: 19 July 2011, 20:46:26 »
My appologies. Late SLDF cruisers split into a variety of roles. The Sov Soys were almost like the previous generation's frigates. The battle cruisers replaced the old battleships while the LF battery cruisers were something new and superceeded by the McKennas. After about 2600 you could no longer consider a cruiser to be a cut price battleship.

Isn't reason the Sovetskii Soyuz is so like a Frigate was that folks who did TRO:3057 was basing their idea of Frigate on way the Pre-1975 US Navy's designation for their ships at time were all hosed up.  After 1975, ships that were considered "Frigates" became cruisers for example.   Those cruisers were not as well armed as traditional thought Gun cruisers of WW2 era.

That also explains why in TRO:3057 that Frigates are larger than destroyers, where present its the other way around.

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