Vehicle of the Week: Vedette

[Firesprocket]

For some reason I thought Magshots were AI weapons, but a quick scan of TacOps says no.  It still makes some sense as a weapon that doesn't track heat on a non fusion engine.  However, yes, a MG of any type makes more sense for AI.  While there is armor that is probably better suited for the tank, one can assume if it is firing from long range and they are battling a Clan enemy it makes some sense.  It also half's damage from weapons that would deal heat damage and effects.  Still I think there are better options out there for 3145.

[mbear]

A relatively simple upgrade would be to slap heavy ferro-fibrous on the Vedette (after it's been invented). You go from 96 to 119 points of armor, which is two more hits from a PPC.

And as for proposed Clan IIC variants, replacing the AC/5 with ProtoMech ACs could work; They'd work even better if the Bears also installed a supercharger for the engine (if they can find weight and space) to close more quickly. Clan Ferro-Fibrous could work too: From 96 to 115 points of protection.

For an AA variant, Light AC/2s could do a good job. Maybe ProtoMech AC/2s? Maybe not, there's not enough weight difference...wait. Am I reading this right? ProtoMech AC/2s can reach out to 20 hexes? Wow. Though I just noticed the Clan RAC/2 weighs exactly 8 tons, so a drop in replacement could be made at the factory.

Although to be honest the I think best upgrade is an ICE to Fuel Cell. That would free up ten tons of weight for modifications. (I think someone already mentioned this up-thread).

[sadlerbw]

First of all, get out of here with that gripping hand silliness! Unless you have a conjoined twin or belong the to Adeptus Mechanicus, you only get two hands! Sorry, had to get that out of my system.

Anyway, the V9 is what we in the AFFS call a 'Capellan Theater' variant. Those whack-a-doodles have been sticking plasma rifles on everything they can, and as you might imagine that presents a problem for conventional vehicles. These days, if you go up against the armies of Liao you had better bring your nomex underpants, and the V9 does. The MagShots aren't quite as silly as they seem either. These days Infantry tend to show up wearing five or six points of armor each, plus they tend to be able to move two and still attack. So, waiting for them to get in range of traditional machine guns more often means you are also in range of getting swarmed. That is, as I'm sure you know, super bad for tanks. The MagShots have the reach to start picking those guys apart at a nice, safe range where they can only murder you with flights of SRM's and...wait...ok, so it isn't a perfect counter, but the point stands that if you want to pick off Battle Armor before they get close enough to tear you apart, you have to start shooting when they are more than 3 or 4 hexes away.

Now, throw that tank over on the Kuritan front, and it's going to shatter. Too many missiles, autocannons, and space samurai with giant, metal hatchets. But it works against the cappies!

[ANS Kamas P81]

The Magshot (aka SRM1) always seemed like an attempt to copy the APGR, and failed at it.  Decent enough for battlesuit guns I suppose, but I'd prefer a couple machine guns myself.  That said, 5/8 fuel cell plus gauss on a 50 ton vehicle means a solid performer, unless you don't give it much ammo.  As for the original...hell, I always wondered why Vedette when you could Scorpion instead.

[Empyrus]

Magshot is actually older than the AP Gauss. In both its forms. Both IRL and in-universe.

IIRC, the IRL reason for the AP Gauss is that the Magshot for Battle Armor was far better than anything the Clans had offer in practice, and since the Clan BA were supposed to be better, the AP Gauss was introduced, along with 'Mech scale version since Magshot had one.
It is unclear if the AP Gauss rifle is based on the Magshot in any way in-universe. Haven't seen anything indicating it is so i assume they're just similar concepts developed independently.

[Terrace]

Magshot is actually older than the AP Gauss. In both its forms. Both IRL and in-universe.

IIRC, the IRL reason for the AP Gauss is that the Magshot for Battle Armor was far better than anything the Clans had offer in practice, and since the Clan BA were supposed to be better, the AP Gauss was introduced, along with 'Mech scale version since Magshot had one.
It is unclear if the AP Gauss rifle is based on the Magshot in any way in-universe. Haven't seen anything indicating it is so i assume they're just similar concepts developed independently.

In-universe, I wouldn't be surprised if the Clans developed the AP Gauss Rifle specifically to one-up the Magshot.

[Empyrus]

Possible but if so, it is not explicitly spelled out anywhere.

[Wrangler]

I'll be happy when we get record sheet for V9.  It seems to be a good budget machine for merc unit.
I found using the Vehicle Effectiveness Rules from TacOps would make vehicles like the V9 more worth wild to have more of.

[sadlerbw]

I'll be happy when we get record sheet for V9.  It seems to be a good budget machine for merc unit.
I found using the Vehicle Effectiveness Rules from TacOps would make vehicles like the V9 more worth wild to have more of.

There is one. It is in recodsheets 3145 new tech, new units. It's TRO 3150's NTNU section that doesn't have record sheets. I even checked my copy of 3145NTNU just now to make sure it was there.

[Wrangler]

There is one. It is in recordsheets 3145 new tech, new units. It's TRO 3150's NTNU section that doesn't have record sheets. I even checked my copy of 3145NTNU just now to make sure it was there.

Oh, I thought it was in the New Tech 3150 one.  I guess I'm mentally showing my age.  :P

[JadeHellbringer]

In-universe, I wouldn't be surprised if the Clans developed the AP Gauss Rifle specifically to one-up the Magshot.

*sings* "Anything you can do, I can do bet-ter, I am genetically bet-ter than youuuuu..."

[sadlerbw]

YES WE CAN, we are clan, WE ARE BORN, in a can...


Wait...what were we talking about again? Oh, right, tanks.

[JadeHellbringer]

YES WE CAN, we are clan, WE ARE BORN, in a can...


Wait...what were we talking about again? Oh, right, tanks.

...you owe me a fresh Pepsi.

*goes back to cleaning desk*

[glitterboy2098]

actually, the Clans encountered infantry portable gauss weapons during OP:Serpent's invasion of Huntress, and certainly during Op:Bulldog. i wouldn't be surprised if they made the AP-Gauss based off records and samples of things like the magshot (which IIRC the Stealthy-Foxes had on huntress during that fight with the falcon base) and the Tsunami man portable gauss rifle, which the DEST used when taking down the Huntress SDI facility.

[sadlerbw]

...you owe me a fresh Pepsi.

*goes back to cleaning desk*

If I ever run into you in person, consider it done  O0

Anyway, I THINK the appeal of these little gauss weapons is that they don't require much in the way of heatsinks to get them to work in non-fusion vehicles, and they have better range than traditional MG's do. Medium lasers are great and all, but when you have to pile on the heatsink tonnage to cover them, they become somewhat less efficient for filling up the last bits of tonnage in a vehicle. The Magshot and AP gauss are tiny, and they still run pretty cool. Of course, I didn't design the official variants, so I could be way off-base here.

[JadeHellbringer]

If I ever run into you in person, consider it done  O0

Anyway, I THINK the appeal of these little gauss weapons is that they don't require much in the way of heatsinks to get them to work in non-fusion vehicles, and they have better range than traditional MG's do. Medium lasers are great and all, but when you have to pile on the heatsink tonnage to cover them, they become somewhat less efficient for filling up the last bits of tonnage in a vehicle. The Magshot and AP gauss are tiny, and they still run pretty cool. Of course, I didn't design the official variants, so I could be way off-base here.

I tend to agree, I do see your point, but they also don't offer any significant advantage over an SRM rack, which is both dirt-cheap and gives you ammunition flexibility. Granted, an AMS can't engage a Magshot, but it also doesn't really supply any good bonus to infantry anyway (the AP Gauss at least can help a little there). Given the choice, an SRM-2 would almost always be a better choice than a couple of Magshots, or at least an MG.

[Sabelkatten]

I tend to agree, I do see your point, but they also don't offer any significant advantage over an SRM rack, which is both dirt-cheap and gives you ammunition flexibility. Granted, an AMS can't engage a Magshot, but it also doesn't really supply any good bonus to infantry anyway (the AP Gauss at least can help a little there). Given the choice, an SRM-2 would almost always be a better choice than a couple of Magshots, or at least an MG.

If you just want to put some damage into the other guy twin Magshots does cause ~40% more than a SRM2 (4 vs/ 2.8 ).

[Moonsword]

*crackle of thunder and lightning above an abandoned castle late at night*

IT'S ALLLIVVEEEE, ALLI- *ahem*

Was reminded about this due to the current Vedette thread in General Discussion; thoughts on the V9 from RS3145 NTNU?

On the one hand, a 5/8 Fuel Cell Gauss Rifle seems to be the budget MBT tankers have been clamoring for.

On the other hand, Reflective Armor and Magshots as the secondary weapons are...interesting choices, at least to me. 

On the gripping hand, the only IS power that the MUL gives this to is the Lyrans, with the Wolves, Falcons, and Horses having access on the Clan end. Needless to say the half-dead hamster on the wheel in my head is working up a sweat on this one.

The V9 was designed because I was hugely offended by the bombast laser on the V7 and the reflective armor was stuck on there to annoy Clanners used to popping tanks with a PPC bolt.  It was kind of a theme in TRO3145 anyway.  I'm not quite sure why I kept the Magshots on there anymore.

I tend to agree, I do see your point, but they also don't offer any significant advantage over an SRM rack, which is both dirt-cheap and gives you ammunition flexibility. Granted, an AMS can't engage a Magshot, but it also doesn't really supply any good bonus to infantry anyway (the AP Gauss at least can help a little there). Given the choice, an SRM-2 would almost always be a better choice than a couple of Magshots, or at least an MG.

I agree with you on the Magshot but disagree on the APGR.  APGRs give you MG-grade anti-infantry power without obliging you to get into the infantry's own range.  Against most non-Clan formations that aren't entrenched with certain types of lasers, an APGR-armed unit can stay at its own medium range but be at long against infantry, or possibly even out of range entirely for infantry units armed with ballistic rifles.  Sure, infantry isn't necessarily that dangerous but it's still a bunch of two point hits you're a lot less likely to eat.  Being engaged at ranges you can't respond to effectively is also more demoralizing to the infantry, potentially making it easier to rout them, a factor that's more important in universe than in the game.  I also just plain like the idea of an itty-bitty Clan Gauss rifle for whatever that's worth to you.

On BA, the range advantages over machine guns and ammo endurance advantages over missiles give both a distinct niche.

[mbear]

I agree with you on the Magshot but disagree on the APGR. 

Snipped lots of stuff

Are APGRs AI weapons like Flamers? (Don't have my books handy.)

[Empyrus]

Are APGRs AI weapons like Flamers? (Don't have my books handy.)

Like MGs, 2d6 damage to conventional infantry. Flamers are 3d6 or 4d6, i think.

Which makes the weapon utterly ridiculous all in all. 3 damage up to 9 hexes for half a ton with ample ammo (40 rounds per ton) and kills infantry to boot. Frankly, there is little reason to use any other anti-infantry weapon in Clan designs...

[JadeHellbringer]

Like MGs, 2d6 damage to conventional infantry. Flamers are 3d6 or 4d6, i think.

Which makes the weapon utterly ridiculous all in all. 3 damage up to 9 hexes for half a ton with ample ammo (40 rounds per ton) and kills infantry to boot. Frankly, there is little reason to use any other anti-infantry weapon in Clan designs...

You're telling me! When I realized just how balls-crazy they were at killing infantry, it became the main concept behind the Shoden (LBX)- don't let the name fool you on that thing, I didn't pick it. I'd have gone with Shoden (WarCrime), or Shoden (BlackFridayCrowdClearer), but no one wants my opinions. ;) Amazing weapon- all the infantry-killing power of an MG, but able to engage from ranges that only missile-armed troops can respond at, with plenty of ammo to boot? Sign me up. (Note that this makes the Elemental version carrying them absolutely ridiculous, even with the loss of the SRM pack)

[Empyrus]

What loss? AP Gauss Elementals still have SRMs. Or did you mean AP Gauss Elemental (Fire) which has only one-shot SRM2 but are fire immune? Or did you mean they're dangerous even after firing the SRMs?
Ah, no matter. Both are from deepest pits of hell...

[Maelwys]

I think he means that after the Elemental fires off its two SRMs (And thus loses the pack), the APGR Elementals are still brutal due to the range of the weapon, unlike Small Laser armed Elementals where you can try to play the range game to render them less effective.

[Ruger]

You're telling me! When I realized just how balls-crazy they were at killing infantry, it became the main concept behind the Shoden (LBX)- don't let the name fool you on that thing, I didn't pick it. I'd have gone with Shoden (WarCrime), or Shoden (BlackFridayCrowdClearer), but no one wants my opinions. ;) Amazing weapon- all the infantry-killing power of an MG, but able to engage from ranges that only missile-armed troops can respond at, with plenty of ammo to boot? Sign me up. (Note that this makes the Elemental version carrying them absolutely ridiculous, even with the loss of the SRM pack)

I'm rather proud of my own war crimes unit with these...the Hellion-E...although your 10 on the Shoden does out do my pair with four flamers...

Ruger

[misterpants]

The V9 was designed because I was hugely offended by the bombast laser on the V7 and the reflective armor was stuck on there to annoy Clanners used to popping tanks with a PPC bolt.

I suspected the clan-centric reason for that from the MUL availability. My first thought on seeing the V9 (before checking the MUL) had me wonder how the tradeoff for increased vulnerability to artillery and physical attacks played out, given the greater chance of running into those in IS vs IS play.

That being said I wouldn't be too offput by being assigned one in IS vs IS. 

[Scotty]

It's a budget gauss that's still being hefted around by a tin can with treads.  And now the tin can is important enough to put down hard and right damn now.  A+ for improved capability, D- for sharply decreased longevity.

[Redshirt]

I had a thought regard in a Clanified version of the Vedette, especially post Jihad. What if you were to use a Large Chemical Laser as your main gun? It doesn't require heat sinks to use, is lighter than an Autocannon, and while it has a shorter range than an Autocannon or LBX, it out ranges a Protomech AC-8. Plus, you can swap out the machine gun for 3 AP Gauss and a ton and a half of ammo...

[JadeHellbringer]

I don't think an AP Gauss can have a half-ton of ammo, so you'd need to either lose half a ton somewhere to gain a second ton or drop the half-ton of ammo for... something (armor I guess?), but otherwise it's an interesting thought actually. Give it to your lowest-ranked warriors, put them on anti-pirate duty, forget they exist and get back to Clanning it up.

[Empyrus]

Yeah, no half a ton AP Gauss ammo.

Of course, a Clanner would protect a solahma tank like a Vedette with some solahma armor. That is, solahma doing a tank desant (ie sitting on top of the tank).

Sadly, BattleTech seems to lack rules for tank desants...

[Weirdo]

Sounds to me like the kind of stuff you give to those militias you've set up in the Barrens. Then you ignore them aside from the occasional sale of spare parts, and checking to see if the running and screaming has started.