Double heatsinks on 3025 mechs-- how big of an impact?

[Korzon77]

Say you give the Magistracy or some group double heat sinks-- that's it.  How big an impact would refitting thier mechs have, combat wise?

[MOrab46019]

Big. If you used the rules that came out in the 80's. If you are using the rules now. Still gives them a leg up but you can't place them in the legs for extra coolness. Over all a +.

[Hersh67]

Total game changer.  Warhammers, Marauders, and Awesomes become that much scarier.  Even lighter mechs like the Wolfhound and Jenner benefit greatly.  Indeed, a Wolfhound with the 'standard' LL and 4 MLs and double heat sinks can do some serious damage to a lot of mechs and even stand up to a number of Clan mechs (of the light class). 

Any time someone does of a survey about something along the lines of 'if faction X could only have 1 item of advanced tech, what would you give them' the DHS wins every time (unless someone specifically restricts it...).

[Iron Mongoose]

Agreed.  Double heatsinks are the single greatest advance from the olden days to the modern era.  More than XLs, more than any single weapon or any system of weapons, more than any gizmo or widget.  No other tech has become practicly obligatory on every single mech, so much so that even if you don't need DHS, you still get a lot of flak if you don't use them (ie, Thunder Hawk). 

A key problem would be refitting mechs.  It would be best to use the most energy heavy load outs possible, since that would make the most of the DHS, and tweak mechs to run hotter (or take mechs like the Stalker and just bank the extra sink weight for armor or more guns).  But, a nation like the Magistracy can't just quickly tune up all its mechs, or even a large number of them.  It would take a very long wile for the tech to filter down.

That said, even at best, if you could not just refit all your mechs with DHS but also a complementery suite of energy weapons to take maxium advantage of them, you still wouldn't be more than twice as well off mech for mech, so a nation like the Magistracy still couldn't hope to take on a Successor State like the FWL.  They could make a hell of a lot of trouble, and if they didn't get too greedy they could likely come out with some gains given the FWL's preoccupation with the other Great Houses.  Gains in logistics would help a lot, too, given that you'd have very energy heavy mechs (in an ideal world) and you could have twice as much combat power per drop ship and per jumpship.  But, the FWL still has so many more jump and drop ships than the Magistracy that it could still mount a counter attack twice or thrice as large if it needed to.

But, when you look a mechs like the Awesome 9Q, the Bounty Hunter's 3015 Marauder, or even some of the better 3050 upgrades like the Archer, you get a sense of what you can do with just that tech and no others. 

[Frabby]

On a gameboard level, you essentially eliminate heat concerns from the tactics, allowing 'Mechs to, ammo permitting, simultaneously fire (alpha strike) almost non-stop and maxing out their movement defense at the same time, esp. jumping 5+ hexes.

Across the board, I'd say DHS raise the firepower of an average IS 3025 'Mech unit by at least 50% and significantly increase the defense of light, jump capable energy boats.

[wundergoat]

On a lot of SW era machines you are looking at several tons of savings by dropping extra sinks.  Energy weapons likewise become much more usable, nearly all of which are perfectly serviceable into the modern era.  Lastly, DHS are incredibly good crit padding, the next best thing to CASE.

[I am Belch II]

Double Heat Sinks on 3025 would change so many things, even if that would be the only tech that is changed. Just think how awesome the Awesome would be.

[Neufeld]

First, even if a design is heat-neutral with 10 single heat sinks, it will befit from being able to move without overheating from two engine hits. It is a small effect, but not insignificant.

To look at a typical effect of DHSs, let us look at the original 14 TRO3025 heavy mechs:

No significant effect:
- DRG-1N Dragon
- JM6-S JagerMech

Better heat management:
- ON1-K Orion
- RFL-3N Rifleman
- CRD-3R Crusader
- ARC-2R Archer

Weight saved:
- QKD-4G Quickdraw (3t)
- CPLT-C1 Catapult (5t)
- GHR-5H Grasshopper (10t)
- OSR-2C Ostroc (1t)
- OTL-4D Ostsol (4t)
- TDR-5S Thunderbolt (5t)
- WHM-6R Warhammer (2t)
- MAD-3R Marauder (1t)

So, basically 12 of 14 heavies does benefit from just swapping the heat-sinks.

[Orin J.]

massive. freezers are pretty much the biggest advantage you can get a hold on, hands down. there was a lot of great toys added to the game, but i'm pretty sure double heat sinks are the only one that you can argue "broke" the game.

Double Heat Sinks on 3025 would change so many things, even if that would be the only tech that is changed. Just think how much more awesome the Awesome would be.

you left out a bit.

[Hersh67]

massive. freezers are pretty much the biggest advantage you can get a hold on, hands down. there was a lot of great toys added to the game, but i'm pretty sure double heat sinks are the only one that you can argue "broke" the game.

Altered would be more appropriate.  It really did change how combat in BT was done.  Had the IS mechs in the original 3050 made better use of the SL era DHS technology there wouldn't be so many stinkers in that TRO.  Additionally, I think the Clans would have had a harder time conquering the IS. 

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Impact: Significant.

'Nuff said as the example of just heavy 'Mechs illustrated.

[stoicfaux]

Dropping the Marauder's AC/5 for a third PPC and upping the armor to 13.5 tons would be a pretty significant upgrade made possible by converting to DHS.

Now if all you're doing is upgrading the heat sinks without adjusting the weapons, armor, etc., then you're limiting yourself.  Hot machines such as the Phoenix Hawk, Rifleman, etc., would become new machines whereas a lot of the heat capacity of a DHS Marauder or Warhammer would go to waste, or would depend too much on short range alpha strikes.

[willydstyle]

When nearly every mech could shoot all of their guns every turn, it would make the game a lot faster, though with less tactical considerations.

[Orin J.]

Dropping the Marauder's AC/5 for a third PPC and upping the armor to 13.5 tons would be a pretty significant upgrade made possible by converting to DHS.

Now if all you're doing is upgrading the heat sinks without adjusting the weapons, armor, etc., then you're limiting yourself.  Hot machines such as the Phoenix Hawk, Rifleman, etc., would become new machines whereas a lot of the heat capacity of a DHS Marauder or Warhammer would go to waste, or would depend too much on short range alpha strikes.

don't forget the Stalker. give that thing freezers to boost its stamina, and it can pound anything in 3025 into a pile of smoldering scrap absurdly fast.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Great comparison - AWS-8Q and AWS-9Q.  The ECM in the latter can be ignored; simply compare the increase in firepower with that fourth PPC.  It's a shame that you can't cram in that last DHS though, there's just no physical room for it - but the point is still well made.

[TJHairball]

Altered would be more appropriate.  It really did change how combat in BT was done.  Had the IS mechs in the original 3050 made better use of the SL era DHS technology there wouldn't be so many stinkers in that TRO.  Additionally, I think the Clans would have had a harder time conquering the IS.

Even just packing the same number of DHS as they previously had SHS dramatically improves a lot of 'mech's performance. Very few TRO 3025 designs run cool, and even the seriously oversinked 3050 TRO upgrades are still major upgrades from the 3025s.

The Jenner and Panther are nice examples of what happens to a typical 'mech - both are perfectly good 'mechs in 3025, but suddenly, with 10 DHS, you don't need to worry about heat at all with either one of them. The Jenner runs very hot without DHS; but a jumping alpha strike is now heat-neutral, and the Jenner can now keep functioning after an engine crit.

The Panther can shave off three tons for something else. The saved weight is actually enough to give the Panther a very useful speed boost to 5/8/5 (with 0.5 tons left over for an extra small laser or something) or noticeably boost its firepower, even if you aren't changing the type of weapon used (2xSRM-6 with 15 rounds instead of 1xSRM-4 with 25? Deal!).

[mensa12345]

Double Heat Sinks on 3025 would change so many things, even if that would be the only tech that is changed. Just think how awesome the Awesome would be.

And it's pretty darn AWESOME now!

[Fat Guy]

How about this one: take the Hunchback 4P and turn 4 of it's heat sinks into more medium lasers. Not only will everything fit, you can run and alpha-strike and only build up 1 heat (or don't fire the small and remain heat neutral!)  >:D

[Nahuris]

Dropping the Marauder's AC/5 for a third PPC and upping the armor to 13.5 tons would be a pretty significant upgrade made possible by converting to DHS.

Now if all you're doing is upgrading the heat sinks without adjusting the weapons, armor, etc., then you're limiting yourself.  Hot machines such as the Phoenix Hawk, Rifleman, etc., would become new machines whereas a lot of the heat capacity of a DHS Marauder or Warhammer would go to waste, or would depend too much on short range alpha strikes.

My first thought ... now, imagine dumping enough heat sinks on that warhammer to max the armor..........

Nahuris

[CrossfirePilot]

The 2LL and 2PPC Rifleman would become a force to be reckoned with.

[billtfor3]

The 2LL and 2PPC Rifleman would become a force to be reckoned with.

It is a force to be reckoned with.  No ammo means an Alpha Strike won't blow you up, so you can do it without dying reliably.

[Hersh67]

So, have you the answer you were looking for, Korzon?

[M-Rex]

I would love to field a 3025 Scorpion with double heat-sinks.

[WarMonkey]

I would love to field a 3025 Scorpion with double heat-sinks.

This!

[billtfor3]

I would love to field a 3025 Scorpion with double heat-sinks.

Why any more so than other Mechs?  It would be cooler than the otherside of the pillow heat wise, but you save no weight with DHS since it only has 10 to begin with.  Don't get me wrong,  I love me some Scorpions, but a lot more designs benifit a lot more with DHS.  Now if you reduced the movement to 5/8 to free up some weight for weapons and armor......

[M-Rex]

Why any more so than other Mechs?  It would be cooler than the otherside of the pillow heat wise, but you save no weight with DHS since it only has 10 to begin with.  Don't get me wrong,  I love me some Scorpions, but a lot more designs benifit a lot more with DHS.  Now if you reduced the movement to 5/8 to free up some weight for weapons and armor......

A.  I don't munchkin.

B.  I like Scorpions.

 O0 ;)

[Dave Talley]

hmm
dropping it to 5/8 gives you 10 tons right there :-)

could go with 5/8/5
2 large lasers and the srms with 14 sinks
or ppc 4 mediums and 17 sinks

[TJHairball]

Why any more so than other Mechs?  It would be cooler than the otherside of the pillow heat wise, but you save no weight with DHS since it only has 10 to begin with.  Don't get me wrong,  I love me some Scorpions, but a lot more designs benifit a lot more with DHS.  Now if you reduced the movement to 5/8 to free up some weight for weapons and armor......

The Scorpion has light armor and is 6/9. This means you want to be moving with it a lot.

You can't move and fire the PPC without overheating. You can't move, fire the PPC, and fire the SRM-6 without overheating enough to impair movement.

It's true that switching to DHS is overkill for a SCP-1N, since a running alpha is only 16 heat, but it benefits a lot from having more heat sinks.

[willydstyle]

The Scorpion would really benefit from being a 50 tonner. Put that thing on a diet!

[X-ray]

Dhs are the biggest game changer out there.  My new merc lance recently did a raid circa 3037, where we located a stash of SL era _____.  My item to chose, one advanced component, enough to outfit my 4 mechs.  Dhs was a no brainier.  Slapped a third ppc on my MAD, haven't had a chance to see what I'll do with my panther, hunchback and wolverine.