Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank

[glitterboy2098]

This.

Its not that the LPL is great on paper, its where you end up "playing the game" a lot of the time.

The LRMs still soften up at range & the Elementals are LOOKING to get into SL/Flamer/MG range w/ you where the LPL will cut them apart.

actually i wasn't thinking 'better to fight clan BA", i was thinking "better to fight clan mechs in the environment where the IS actually excels, urban and very dense terrain." places where the clan advantaged of speed and range are negated, allowing the IS to fight on terms that are somewhat more even, and the IS's group coordination and willingness to fight dirty with things like melee attacks gives them an edge.

the LRM give you the option for indirect fire, while the SRM6 and LPL gives fairly high close in fire power for when a clan mech walks round a corner into LOS. the SSRM2 adds to this slightly when it works, but mostly is there to give the vehicle a longer duration backup weapon. the artemis on the LRM conflicts a little with indirect fire use, but gives the LRM that much extra power in up close direct fire.

during the invasion, the only times where the IS managed to get a relatively even kill ratio on the clans was when the IS forces withdrew into urban fighting and in battles where the terrain resembles urban fighting, like canyons and really dense forest. places where the clan's can't make good use of their longer ranges and generally higher ground speed, and where there were lots of chances for the IS forces to leverage group fire, combined arms, melee attacks, etc. in such environments the Manticores PPC would have been more hindrance than help, so the post invasion refit dropping it for a LPL, which has similar firepower but with more effective close range performance, makes some sense.

as does the dropping of the ML to save space for Artemis IV on the main missile racks. in the event of am ore open field battle, the old succession wars tactics of staying at range and using the longer range of your LRM and PPC to pick apart targets no longer works. on both the clan and IS sides your opponents are now generally more mobile and can inflict fairly extensive damage at longer ranges than you can. so you'd be using that LRM to soften the targets up as you race forwards to engage at close range with pulse laser and SRM's, trying to get in as much damage as possible before your tank gets crippled.

[Coldstone]

actually i wasn't thinking 'better to fight clan BA", i was thinking "better to fight clan mechs in the environment where the IS actually excels, urban and very dense terrain." places where the clan advantaged of speed and range are negated, allowing the IS to fight on terms that are somewhat more even, and the IS's group coordination and willingness to fight dirty with things like melee attacks gives them an edge.

the LRM give you the option for indirect fire, while the SRM6 and LPL gives fairly high close in fire power for when a clan mech walks round a corner into LOS. the SSRM2 adds to this slightly when it works, but mostly is there to give the vehicle a longer duration backup weapon. the artemis on the LRM conflicts a little with indirect fire use, but gives the LRM that much extra power in up close direct fire.

during the invasion, the only times where the IS managed to get a relatively even kill ratio on the clans was when the IS forces withdrew into urban fighting and in battles where the terrain resembles urban fighting, like canyons and really dense forest. places where the clan's can't make good use of their longer ranges and generally higher ground speed, and where there were lots of chances for the IS forces to leverage group fire, combined arms, melee attacks, etc. in such environments the Manticores PPC would have been more hindrance than help, so the post invasion refit dropping it for a LPL, which has similar firepower but with more effective close range performance, makes some sense.

as does the dropping of the ML to save space for Artemis IV on the main missile racks. in the event of am ore open field battle, the old succession wars tactics of staying at range and using the longer range of your LRM and PPC to pick apart targets no longer works. on both the clan and IS sides your opponents are now generally more mobile and can inflict fairly extensive damage at longer ranges than you can. so you'd be using that LRM to soften the targets up as you race forwards to engage at close range with pulse laser and SRM's, trying to get in as much damage as possible before your tank gets crippled.

Then use a snub nose PPC instead of the LPL. The LPL is imo totally obsolete since that gun exists. 9 hexes shoert range with 1 more damage than the LPL.

Personally I invented a Manticore Variant which uses a Heavy PPC along with dual MML 7. Not invented for city fighting, but for field combat.

[SteelRaven]

Just occurred to me that there isn't a ER PPC variant. Standard PPC, Large Pulse, Heavy PPC, LB-X, RAC, you would think a ER PPC build would happen eventually. Closes is the EC Enhanced PPC variant.

Other than that, I have my own ideas for a Urban Warfare variant but I'll save those for the fan design thread.

[AlphaMirage]

The ERPPC weighs 12 tons of a fusion vehicle, maybe if you consolidate to MML it could work but it's a big cost in tonnage

[Ruger]

The ERPPC weighs 12 tons of a fusion vehicle, maybe if you consolidate to MML it could work but it's a big cost in tonnage

The original PPC and Medium laser combo used on the introtech model is 11 tons. Fairly simple to scrounge a single ton without much loss of capability.

Ruger

[SteelRaven]

The ERPPC weighs 12 tons of a fusion vehicle, maybe if you consolidate to MML it could work but it's a big cost in tonnage

Yet we have a Heavy PPC variant. We have other ER PPC tanks, that is the only reason we haven't seen it.

[Colt Ward]

The ERPPC weighs 12 tons of a fusion vehicle, maybe if you consolidate to MML it could work but it's a big cost in tonnage

Which is STILL going to be less than a HPPC version.

But honestly, going into 3150 a cERLL is a better option.

[glitterboy2098]

Then use a snub nose PPC instead of the LPL. The LPL is imo totally obsolete since that gun exists. 9 hexes shoert range with 1 more damage than the LPL.

snub PPC hadn't been redeveloped in 3055. intro date on them is 3067. so wasn't even experimental tech yet. and the LPL has the advantage of making up for the (often) lower gunnery skills found in IS tank crews.

[Coldstone]

I would still use the Standard PPC then. The pulse lasers in general are bad weapons in the IS, except for highly mobile harasser platforms like Wraith, Venom or Spider.

[Hellraiser]

The pulse lasers in general are bad weapons in the IS, except for highly mobile harasser platforms like Wraith, Venom or Spider.

Meh, or as back up weapons on Assaults that use Endo/Ferro/DHs where crits are few & tonnage is plentiful.
MPLs are a great way to keep said Spider/Venom honest & as odd as it sounds, an LPL or 2 will flat out make them STAY AWAY.
Niche maybe, BAD, not at all.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

I would still use the Standard PPC then. The pulse lasers in general are bad weapons in the IS, except for highly mobile harasser platforms like Wraith, Venom or Spider.

Inner Sphere large pulse lasers use assume you can control the battlefield, or at least the range.  But if you can do that in most ranges except "a shootout in a phone booth" the standard PPC is at least as good, and hits slightly harder.

The Manticore is decent speed for a tank.  It does not have the speed to control the range.  IT wasn't a LPL Manti, but a 3058 Goblin I saw get taken apart, and the other guy didn't even do the move I would have, step back to 11 hexes.  He did stay in the LPL's long range, and just took the tank apart with minimal damage to himself.

[Empyrus]

Can't recall what the fluff says about the variant but i'd stick the 3055 Manticore to defensive city (or other close environment) fighting only. Somewhere the enemy has to come to range, or either take a detour to reach their objective. Perhaps a smidgen expensive for area denial, so probably also something only for high value targets.

Anywhere else, i figure one is better off with the baseline variant.

[Atarlost]

Inner Sphere large pulse lasers use assume you can control the battlefield, or at least the range. 

Or that you will be attacked by enemies that want to fight at the same range as you or even closer.  The point that Nahuris raised was that Clan opponents might self sort so that the large chaps with SRMs and even shorter ranged weapons go after vehicles while mechwarriors with more diverse and longer ranged armaments went after battlemechs.  An enemy that wants to get 1 hex away from you  to attack with a small laser, flamer, or machine gun makes a PPC's minimum range a rather severe liability if you can't readily kite them because you need to hold ground. 

[Nahuris]

I would still use the Standard PPC then. The pulse lasers in general are bad weapons in the IS, except for highly mobile harasser platforms like Wraith, Venom or Spider.

Again, though, when fighting elementals, and the risk of them getting into the minimum range on that PPC .... I agree, in general combat, the PPC is better, but if you are expecting that Elementals are going to try and get to you, having a couple LPL's in the lance is going to make those crews feel a LOT better ......

And, it isn't an all or nothing issue --- tanks operate in groups, so having one set up for popping toads is going to make a LOT of sense, especially when you are considering the battle from the Officer down point of view.

Nahuris

[BrianDavion]

Then use a snub nose PPC instead of the LPL. The LPL is imo totally obsolete since that gun exists. 9 hexes shoert range with 1 more damage than the LPL.

do you review wooden sailing ships with "they shoulda used steam turbines" by any chance? :)

[Cannonshop]

do you review wooden sailing ships with "they shoulda used steam turbines" by any chance? :)

you know, that would be an interesting challenge-to fit a classically built wooden sailing hull, but power it with a modern gas turbine... I wonder how many seconds it would last once the engine was put to full power...

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, but when is the question . . . use a contemporary of Nelson's Victory?  Or a composite structure of say the time of Cutty Sark- I THINK she was built that way- which had greater strength in the hull.  The other side is . . . build in a screw?  or go with a pair of side paddlewheels?

[Sabelkatten]

Gas turbine driven sidewheeler? I vote yes! :D

[pokefan548]

It occurs to me now that we can run naval combat with steam ships, but I don't believe we have rules for sail-powered ships, do we? We already have BAR equivalents for hard wood, so... hm, I'll have to do some research.

[chanman]

It occurs to me now that we can run naval combat with steam ships, but I don't believe we have rules for sail-powered ships, do we? We already have BAR equivalents for hard wood, so... hm, I'll have to do some research.

Okay, but what about galley combat using myomer-powered oars?

[Sabelkatten]

Okay, but what about galley combat using myomer-powered oars?

DESTROY THEM, MY ROWBOTS!

[Weirdo]

So, how 'bout them Manticores? C:-)

[SteelRaven]

Good tank!

Wouldn't mind see more of it but also don't want to ignore the Manticore II exists.

The two are different enough, a old school Manticore can serve beside a Manticore II and serve over lapping roles. 

[chanman]

So, how 'bout them Manticores? C:-)

If my photoshop skills were better, you'd be looking at an image of a Manticore mashed up with paddlewheels and the caption "That's a paddlin'"

But as it is, you'll just have to use your imagination.  :P

[Colt Ward]

I wish we were getting the Horses producing the Manticore EC in the Dark Age re-arm programs.

[Empyrus]

Don't think the Horses would've bothered to produce early "improved" tech, unlike the Scorpions. But a full C upgrade? Would be neat to see.

Wasn't Manticore indicated to be in the Mercs Kickstarter? If so, perhaps we'll get upgraded variants, perhaps even a C considering the Clans have been upgrading traditional Inner Sphere 'Mechs to C specifications, for example the Cyclops.

[glitterboy2098]

do the Horses have a factory for the Manitcore in their territory? because i can't see them building a new factory for a C conversion, when they could just build more clan originals. looking at sarna's info on manufacturers, most of the worlds building them are on the opposite side of the inner sphere or securely in IS hands. though that doesn't say much given the limited nature of such info.

the only clan that might have the ability to do a C conversion is the Wolves, who now have the New Earth Trading Company facilities on Terra, which would have the plans and potentially the tooling to make it. (assuming the facilty on New Earth itself wasn't back up and running by 3151, which if it was would give them an active line)

most likely they'd start with the HPPC version, though given those sites where in the republic, they might have been building the C3 and C3 master variants of the 3055 upgraded type.

[Empyrus]

I just assume that writers can conjure up factories by fiat if they wish. Of course, this hypothetical C doesn't have to be a Horse product, though they'd be the most natural source by inclination.

I wonder if the original Manticore is still produced or if all production has moved to upgraded variants?

[Ghost_msl]

Speaking of a hypothetical Manticore C - would it lean more into the long range aspect (ERLL + bigger LRM rack and more ammo), mid range (ERPPC + Streaks) or short range (LPL + larger/more SRMs) if we assume the Horses make one then I feel the long or the short is more likely, mid seems like something the Wolves would cook up.

[SteelRaven]

As it was pointed out in early post, LPL has allot of Anti-BA overlap that would allow the Manticore to support friendly BA. LPL was never a bad idea for the tank, the IS LPL is just less efficient than it's counterparts but the Clan Large Pulse is well suited for the role.

There are a few more things you can do on the IS side as well.