Author Topic: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?  (Read 26122 times)

dragonkid11

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #90 on: 19 November 2012, 21:44:20 »
Doesn't explain how warship still have huge gun barrel being outside of the ship rather than inside.
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evilauthor

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #91 on: 19 November 2012, 22:57:28 »
Doesn't explain how warship still have huge gun barrel being outside of the ship rather than inside.

What doesn't explain it?

And given that individual weapon mass (or even weapon BAY mass) tends to be absolutely TINY compared to the mass of the Warship as a whole, what makes you think there's any huge gun barrels at all?

Or are you complaining about fluff art?

dragonkid11

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #92 on: 20 November 2012, 04:45:33 »
What doesn't explain it?

And given that individual weapon mass (or even weapon BAY mass) tends to be absolutely TINY compared to the mass of the Warship as a whole, what makes you think there's any huge gun barrels at all?

Or are you complaining about fluff art?

Well,sort of.
There are some warship arts that have xbox huge gun barrel stick outside of the ship,which make your theory incorrect because the barrel would get slice.Maybe the KF field is not millimeter above the armor,but dozens of meters away from the ship.

Although that would make the ability to slice object with AT field KF field a bit too possible as a last last last resort weapon.
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guardiandashi

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #93 on: 20 November 2012, 13:01:46 »
from what I remember the kf field is not a "sharply defined" edge

what it has is an inner "guaranteed safe perimeter" this is the jumpship and the properly attached dropships, who have the kf fully extended around them.

once you are outside the inner perimeter you start taking random and variable amounts of damage during jumps until you get outside the outer kf field perimeter.

now one example of what this means is you could have a flight of fighters attacking a jumpship/warship as it jumps and have a fighter 50 meters from the hull of the ship take no damage at all wheras a fighter 45 meters away takes 2D6 damage, another one 50 meters away from the ship and 10 meters from the one that took no damage being completely ripped apart etc.

evilauthor

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #94 on: 20 November 2012, 13:08:50 »
Well,sort of.
There are some warship arts that have xbox huge gun barrel stick outside of the ship,which make your theory incorrect because the barrel would get slice.Maybe the KF field is not millimeter above the armor,but dozens of meters away from the ship.

Although that would make the ability to slice object with AT field KF field a bit too possible as a last last last resort weapon.

If KF Extenders are part of the ship's structure, then presumably they're also running through the parts of the structure that the armor is mounted on. IOW, just UNDER the armor, including any armor that weapons happen to be wrapped in.

And yeah, I always thought the design of the Leviathan with those huge tubes sticking out its side was pretty silly. In fact I was wondering what they were because I was SURE those things couldn't be guns.

Hephestus

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #95 on: 26 November 2012, 00:42:05 »
alot of the ideas ive seen to make warships better seem good but also seem to involve pretty much scrapping the current rules. Ive thought of a few ideas to tweak the current rules and maybe add some new ones

-i like the idea of having the DT based on the SI so why not make the DT equal to 30% of the SI value?
-also no limit to how high u can make the SI. having a minimum makes sense but there is no logical reason why u need a max limit
-have the armor = to the SI weight divided by 20 instead of 50 to knock out some of the fragility.
-increase the weapon limits for larger units, keep corvettes and DDs at 20 per arc but have crusers be 30 and BS be 40
-also with weapon arcs, the crew requirement for standard weapons is 1 per 6 weapons so why not apply it to the weapon arcs? have the weapon limits be for capital weapons and have 6 standard weapons count as one capital
-the tensile and sheer strenth of materials dont change with scale so a larger ship would need more SI to compensate for its speed than a smaller ship. Maybe a weight penalty like for naval tugs but calculated according to the units weight and thrust. (so a 2m ton ship with a ST of 2 would get less of a mass penalty than the same wieght ship with a ST of 3, also tiny buggers like corvettes wouldnt get one at all)
-different internal structure materials would be good (given what ive put above) but since warships dont calculate space they would need a penalty to offset them. since an "endo-steel" structure would take up more space have an armor penalty to reflect how much more surface area has to be covered.

-also in the books i have it says that a standard k-f core can jump twice its weight. if so why cant u biuld a light warship with no dropship collars and a core that takes up say 55% of its weight? you could just strip the core out of a standard invader-class jumpship and biuld a 250k "light warship" around it.
-And compact cores can jump 6 times thier weight! you could biuld a warship with a core that takes up only 20% of its weight as long as it had no collars.
-maybe a construction system that has a core take up more of a percentage based on its weight and how many collars it has. it would underscore a difference between carriers and pure battleships. and you could set it up so smaller warships get less of a penalty and make them more viable.

evilauthor

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #96 on: 26 November 2012, 01:16:16 »
-also with weapon arcs, the crew requirement for standard weapons is 1 per 6 weapons so why not apply it to the weapon arcs? have the weapon limits be for capital weapons and have 6 standard weapons count as one capital

You mean 1 crew for every 36 standard weapons? I can think of two reasons: operation and maintenance.

Operation
If you have X number of weapons, you ideally want to be able to aim them at X number of targets, and a human operator really can't aim at more than one target at a time.

On the flip side, a single weapon is highly unlikely to kill anything in one shot due to both accuracy issues and the ablative nature of BT armor. So you want to concentrate fire to kill targets as fast as possible. OTOH, you don't want that fire TOO concentrated otherwise you get situations like the Far Side cartoon where every man on a wall all shot the same enemy soldier while the rest of the enemy army is charging forward.

As such, having a single man run 6 weapons simultaneously - possibly by having all 6 mounted on a single turret which he operates - looks like an acceptable compromise.

Maintenance
Do YOU really want to be the poor slob who has to PMCS thirty six very sophisticated weapon systems - the lightest of which masses half a ton - by yourself??? And try to fix them if something needs fixing? More operators equals more people to help repairing a weapon system if something breaks.

On the other hand...

One possible alternate rule is not have 1 operator per 6 weapons. Have 1 operator per Weapon Bay. Since a weapon bay can only shoot at one thing anyway but each bay can be independently targeted (according to game rules anyway), it would make sense to have every weapon in that Bay be operated by a single person. For example, you can only stuff 4 NPPCs in a single weapon bay. So it makes sense for three operators to only handle three separate bays instead of having two operators operate three bays (each operator controls one bay and half the weapons in the third bay).

Cowdragon

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #97 on: 26 November 2012, 02:39:30 »
Where are the rules and descriptions for liquid cores anyway? They sound really amazing!

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Hephestus

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #98 on: 26 November 2012, 08:57:37 »
um u kinda missed the point there, the rules already have the gunner requirement as 1 per every 6 standard guns, i just said to apply that reasoning to the firing arc weapon limit, after all a standard weapon isnt as big as a capital one

evilauthor

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #99 on: 26 November 2012, 11:55:16 »
Where are the rules and descriptions for liquid cores anyway? They sound really amazing!

It was a one off experimental from the original Star League. Living Legends is the name of the supplement and I think the liquid core only ever appears there because knowledge of how to build such a thing is AFAIK completely lost.

um u kinda missed the point there, the rules already have the gunner requirement as 1 per every 6 standard guns, i just said to apply that reasoning to the firing arc weapon limit, after all a standard weapon isnt as big as a capital one

No, but a weapon still needs to be AIMED (which is what a gunner does) and I don't see the ability to control and aim 6 PPCs being any easier than 6 NPPCs. And the penalty applied to going over the arc limits is called fire control tonnage, and that penalty applies to EVERY weapon in the overloaded arc. This suggests weapon size is not the issue; managing and operating them so that they can hit their targets is the real issue.

wellspring

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #100 on: 26 November 2012, 18:25:10 »
I think before we got to the question of specific rules, we ought to be asking ourselves how we want the game to play on the tabletop and in the setting. Age of Sail? WWI battleships? WWII carrier warfare? Something else?

DropShips, WarShips, and ASFs all have very similar flight characteristics, despite vastly different tonnages. So why is a mix optimal? Should a mix be optimal? For example, what should fighters do on the tabletop? Should formation be important?

Once you have the feel of the game hashed out, that's when you can start to play with the rule tweaks that get you there. In other words, decide what you're trying to accomplish before you start arguing about the details of how you're going to accomplish it.

I get the feeling that TPTB decided that WarShips should be pushed off-screen and replaced with assault dropships (PWS's). To the extent that they'll survive in the system at all, it's as motherships that figure more into campaign rules than on the tabletop. That's just the impression I get. And I think that's probably a good thing. I don't see how DropShips, WarShips, and ASFs can co-exist without a concept that clearly defines their different roles.

Hephestus

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #101 on: 26 November 2012, 20:34:03 »
the rules right now for firing arcs seem to make warships optimised for broadside combat, so its more like age of sail. but with dropships and fighters its more like the age of sail with PT boats and sopwith camels. (at least thats what it seems they were going for) the 2 main problems im seeing people complain about is that warships cant take alot of damage so for the most part, so u cant have an age of sail line battle when ur ships get blown apart in 3 turns (or less), so they need more armor.  the other is that there is no advantage of smaller warships vs larger ones, so maybe some kind of scaling like they do for battlemechs. those 2 things are the most major problems i think.

as for flight characteristics, oceangoing ships have to move through water rather than air so the movement difference between them and fighters is obvious. having them operate in the same medium levels the playing field.
maybe you can have fighters operate in squadrons like battlearmor or con. infantry (at least for large battles) and give them unique abilities to offset the similar flight characteristics, for instance:
-evasive manuvers: halves movement speed while expending the max fuel points, gives unit attacking squadron +1 to hit (or something)
-alpha strike: gives units attacking the fighter squadron and the fighter squadron itself +3 to hit but fighters have to be moving at X velocity to use it, adds 20% damage to ballistic and missle weapons due to the speed involved

evilauthor

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #102 on: 27 November 2012, 00:37:23 »
When the aerospace rules were originally written, players quickly noticed that they gave fighters and Dropships a huge advantage over Warships. Despite the devs obviously intending Warships to be the most dangerous things in space, fans doing math quickly figured that the canon Warships (and even more heavily armed fan Warships) could be easily killed by swarms of lesser ships that cost only a tiny fraction of what the Warship did. Even the naval grade weapons were equalled in damage by a cluster standard weapons that weighed only a tiny fraction of the naval weapon, generated far less heat, and didn't have any trouble targeting fighters to boot.

Since then of course, the devs have introduced numerous rule tweaks to put Warships back on top. These include doubling Naval Weapon ranges, Naval Lasers with AA mode, fire control tonnage penalties, and more. Whether these tweaks actually work or not... I dunno.

In any case, BT space combat is SUPPOSED to be very Age of Sail with Warships trading broadsides, but with fighters thrown in for that standard Sci Fi space combat mix. Under the original rules, combat would/should have skewed heavily towards a fighter/carrier paradigm because Warships were basically glass cannons.

wellspring

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #103 on: 27 November 2012, 10:45:57 »
In any case, BT space combat is SUPPOSED to be very Age of Sail with Warships trading broadsides, but with fighters thrown in for that standard Sci Fi space combat mix. Under the original rules, combat would/should have skewed heavily towards a fighter/carrier paradigm because Warships were basically glass cannons.

Snipped the first part for brevity-- I totally agree. At the time that BattleSpace came out, I was very disappointed, and ended up switching my space gaming to other systems even for playing BT space games.

My own preference is a modified Age of Sail approach also. The key characteristics of sail warfare are ranged batteries (check), broadside arcs (check), wind gauge (no check) and the importance of formation (no check).

Formation was absolutely essential. The british were the masters of this kind of warfare, and I seem to recall that they flat-out declared that any captain who broke the line would be hanged (Nelson famously ignored this and empowered his captains to make their own tactical decisions, to great effect). Partly this was to avoid accidentally hitting one another, and partly due to the complexities of maneuvering, but mostly so ships could concentrate fire on the enemy.

For the most part, I don't see anything in BT mechanics that encourages good formation discipline. Sure, you want your ships to concentrate fire, keep at your optimum range while staying out of theirs, and keep your enemies in your best fire arc. But fleets (certainly in BattleSpace, as far as I've seen so far in modern BT also) fight like collections of individuals. No offense, but the space rules play out like a bunch of mechs slugging it out on a map with no terrain.

One way to encourage fleets to stay in formation is with forced movement. If there are per-turn limits to how much you can change facing (not just a thrust cost), and if your movement in this turn depends largely on the orders you gave last turn, then suddenly you have to plan ahead and move in packs or your formation will fall apart. Finally, you want big rewards for concentrating fire across multiple ships. Two ships ganging up on one should get major bonuses versus having one ship with twice the firepower. That encourages ships to work together.

Age of Sail essentially had two kinds of warship (I'm drastically oversimplifying, but this holds up reasonably well). The first was the Ship of the Line. They came in different sizes, but didn't vary all that much and ultimately designs were driven by economics and fashion. What mattered was that they were armed and armored to serve in the line of battle. However, there's also a need to have a naval presence at actions that fall short of actual war: showing the flag, exploring, raiding, harrying shipping, suppressing local rebellions, etc. So a smaller, faster vessel bulks out your fleets numbers and lets you cover more ground. These smaller ships (frigates) were faster and lighter and not really suited to naval battles, but came in very handy nevertheless.

OK so you're ready for me to assign WarShips as Ships of the Line and PWS's as frigates, right? Wrong. You could do that, absolutely. But look at how the tonnages range in BT: from two hundred to two million tons. I just don't see how you can have consistent rules that don't create some optimal tonnage range, and so why fight it? Even in-universe, subcapital weapons mean that warships are going away. I don't see the need for a mechanics buff to retain a unit that isn't any more fun to run than a large naval dropship, which can be plenty stompy in itself.

So gameplay-wise, we want the four elements I mentioned above. Since in all the fiction, Captains are absolutely essential to a ship, we want some way for a Captain to make a personal difference on the tabletop, rather than just as the guy who arranged for a high crew quality modifier. We want our sweet spot for ship size to be in the middle of the construction range, with advantages and disadvantages for going smaller or larger. That suggests a point of diminishing returns; perhaps after a point, doubling your weapons load should result in only a minor bump to firepower. We want different weapon classes to have different advantages and disadvantages.

We also want fighters. They're an important part of the setting. They're also a source of some of BS's problems: they already had mech-scale weapons for ground combat, so suddenly the entire Weapons and Equipment Table had to be supported at the naval scale. So what makes a fighter different than a combat DropShip? In BT, Damage is Damage (mostly), but as long as Aerospace Fighters and DropShips have the same combat role it will remain hard to keep the rules so balanced that having exclusively one or the other doesn't defeat a balanced force. Rock-paper-scissors helps a bit, but let's think of ways to get them playing different and complementary games so people will want to make sure they pack both along in their fleets.

Anyway, I'll write up my ideas of how to do all this next.

evilauthor

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #104 on: 27 November 2012, 11:54:06 »
So what makes a fighter different than a combat DropShip? In BT, Damage is Damage (mostly), but as long as Aerospace Fighters and DropShips have the same combat role it will remain hard to keep the rules so balanced that having exclusively one or the other doesn't defeat a balanced force.

Actually, it's the engine. Fighters use mech-type engines which provide better MP than Large Craft engines on a per tonnage basis. This allows fighters to devote a higher percentage of their tonnage to payload for a given amount of MP than Large Craft. The cost however is that Fighter engines lack a Strategic Mode and will use up fuel in a few hours that Large Craft can make last for days. Not only that, Fighter engines do not scale up very well and lose their tonnage benefits when fighters get up to around 100 tons.

Small craft like shuttles use Dropship type engines and thus get Strategic mode. But a shuttle of 100 tons or less will always have inferior combat performance compared to an equivalent fighter for a given MP because they're using a more massive engine as well as paying for things like structure than fighters don't have to.

In short, fighters can devote a higher percentage of their mass to payload (ie, weapons and armor) than Dropships, but sacrifice long range endurance to do so.

wellspring

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #105 on: 27 November 2012, 13:50:47 »
Actually, it's the engine. Fighters use mech-type engines which provide better MP than Large Craft engines on a per tonnage basis. This allows fighters to devote a higher percentage of their tonnage to payload for a given amount of MP than Large Craft. The cost however is that Fighter engines lack a Strategic Mode and will use up fuel in a few hours that Large Craft can make last for days. Not only that, Fighter engines do not scale up very well and lose their tonnage benefits when fighters get up to around 100 tons.

Small craft like shuttles use Dropship type engines and thus get Strategic mode. But a shuttle of 100 tons or less will always have inferior combat performance compared to an equivalent fighter for a given MP because they're using a more massive engine as well as paying for things like structure than fighters don't have to.

In short, fighters can devote a higher percentage of their mass to payload (ie, weapons and armor) than Dropships, but sacrifice long range endurance to do so.

Under BattleSpace rules, a shuttle was treated as a single fighter, and unlike an ASF, you could make it up to 200 tons. More than sufficient to outgun and out-engine any fighter. (Obviously, things have changed a bit since). More importantly, even now these are mostly differences in degree rather than differences in kind. Ultimately, they're both platforms for the same kinds of weapons that are used in roughly the same way. The comparison here might be torpedo boats versus other kinds of ships.

Ideally, fighters should be used differently, rather than just being another weight class of dropship with some design concessions.

evilauthor

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #106 on: 27 November 2012, 20:25:09 »
Under BattleSpace rules, a shuttle was treated as a single fighter, and unlike an ASF, you could make it up to 200 tons. More than sufficient to outgun and out-engine any fighter. (Obviously, things have changed a bit since). More importantly, even now these are mostly differences in degree rather than differences in kind. Ultimately, they're both platforms for the same kinds of weapons that are used in roughly the same way. The comparison here might be torpedo boats versus other kinds of ships.

Ideally, fighters should be used differently, rather than just being another weight class of dropship with some design concessions.

Well sure. But for the tonnage of a single 200 ton "shuttle", I can have two (or more) fighters that collectively outgun it. This is before bay tonnage is factored in of course.

Hephestus

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #107 on: 29 November 2012, 19:03:46 »
on the ground battlearmor dosent stand a chance against mechs in a stand up fight, to compensate one of the things they are given are special attacks vs muchs/vehicles. it doesent level the playing field but it helps create a niche.  maybe something along those lines for fighters.

also i had a thought on the fire control arcs for warships, would it make more sense for the fire control limit to be applied to each weapon bay rather than each individual weapon?  In general each bay fires at one target, even if u use individual fireing rules u get a penalty to hit because the bays wernt designed that way. and at least when i group weapons for fighters in my own designs its in groups of 3-4 to create the feel of a multigun turret and to simplifly play.

evilauthor

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #108 on: 29 November 2012, 20:12:40 »
on the ground battlearmor dosent stand a chance against mechs in a stand up fight, to compensate one of the things they are given are special attacks vs muchs/vehicles. it doesent level the playing field but it helps create a niche.  maybe something along those lines for fighters.

also i had a thought on the fire control arcs for warships, would it make more sense for the fire control limit to be applied to each weapon bay rather than each individual weapon?  In general each bay fires at one target, even if u use individual fireing rules u get a penalty to hit because the bays wernt designed that way. and at least when i group weapons for fighters in my own designs its in groups of 3-4 to create the feel of a multigun turret and to simplifly play.

What's to prevent a designer from making weapon bays that never have more than the maximum amount of weapons then? The entire point of the weapon limit rules is to prevent players from simply piling on as many light weapons as possible and give a reason to favor the heavier, less efficient weapons over the smaller, more efficient ones. If you put the limits on a per bay basis, then you're simply encouraging ship designs with lots and lots of weapon bays, which would have precisely the opposite effect than what the rule was intended for.

Example: Standard arc limit rules imposes a tonnage penalty for stuffing 70 PPCs into a single weapon arc. Under standard rules, doing so would put all those weapons into a single arc.

Your per Bay limit rule however would not discourage stuffing 70 PPCs into a single arc, because the designer would simply divide the PPCs up into the number of bays equal to the the 70 PPCs divided by whatever the bay weapon number limit is.

Hephestus

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #109 on: 29 November 2012, 20:46:31 »
what do you mean by "smaller and more efficent" weapons? Every kind of capital laser and naval ppc have the exact same damage to weight ratio. the energy weapons actually favor the heavier kind because they have more range than the lighter ones.  The autocannons have more variation but not much and it scales with range.  with the gauss rifles the lightest version is the most inefficent with the middlewight having the best damage to weight ratio and the heavy falling inbetween.  missles actually get more efficent as u scale up. (based on missle tonnage not the launcher, tho its the same for lauchers too) so the rules are already in favor of larger weapons

if fire control was by bay u could scale down the number of control slots a ship can have. set it up so the fire control slot per arc was 1 for every 100k of tonnage a ship has or along those lines.

wellspring

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #110 on: 29 November 2012, 22:05:52 »
what do you mean by "smaller and more efficent" weapons? Every kind of capital laser and naval ppc have the exact same damage to weight ratio. the energy weapons actually favor the heavier kind because they have more range than the lighter ones.  The autocannons have more variation but not much and it scales with range.  with the gauss rifles the lightest version is the most inefficent with the middlewight having the best damage to weight ratio and the heavy falling inbetween.  missles actually get more efficent as u scale up. (based on missle tonnage not the launcher, tho its the same for lauchers too) so the rules are already in favor of larger weapons

if fire control was by bay u could scale down the number of control slots a ship can have. set it up so the fire control slot per arc was 1 for every 100k of tonnage a ship has or along those lines.

He means mech-scale vs naval weapons. Mech scale weapons do far more damage when total tonnage of the system is factored in. Under the original BattleSpace system, the optimum design stripped out every naval weapon and replaced it with equivalent tonnage of Clan ER Large Lasers. By the original rules, damage per Maintenance point, C-bill, tonnage or any other measure of efficiency was optimized, and in a weapon that hit the maximum range band and had no ammo restriction.

Obviously, they later added rules that made this illegal/undesirable. Strip away those rules, though, and the original principle returns.


on the ground battlearmor dosent stand a chance against mechs in a stand up fight, to compensate one of the things they are given are special attacks vs muchs/vehicles. it doesent level the playing field but it helps create a niche.  maybe something along those lines for fighters.

Hitting the first part of your post, I agree with this, with a slight tweak.

Very large ships have huge armor, so they're very resistant to destruction from damage. But they still have exposed systems: weapons, sensors, engines, bay doors, dropship collars. While these are protected by armor and good maneuvering, well-placed shots from very short range can still damage them by hitting chinks in the ship's armor.

So a fighter has the ability to force crits and cripple but not destroy a ship. Against very big ships, this is more feasible than pounding through all that armor. Even cooler, a fighter pilot has the ability to target specific systems on their close passes. Which means that even in a slugging match, the fighter's role is to shoot out their anti-ship turrets and cripple their engines. And, of course, to prevent enemy ASF's from doing the same to your ship.

You protect against crit-optimized attackers by having more, smaller ships. This way, crippling any particular ship does little overall damage to the fleet. But doing this makes you more vulnerable to heavy guns like subcapital weapons.

The idea is that the combat system is tweaked so there is a sweet zone where a ship is small cheap enough that you can have several in your fleet and not be so vulnerable to cripplers, but big enough to be resistant to sustained capital weapons attack in a fleet action. Ships at that sweet spot can stand in the line of battle. Bigger ships are vulnerable to fighters (and so are only deployed with either heavy fighter cover or smaller ships as escorts) and smaller ships are vulnerable to bigger ships (and so are given cruising missions rather than being expected to play a main role in a fleet). Most combat ships have an ASF complement. Pirates especially love ASFs because they can cripple rather than destroy their prey; something previous editions only made possible with boarding actions or lots of luck.

guardiandashi

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #111 on: 30 November 2012, 02:47:16 »
to use an example of what they are argueing against bay limits as an "exploit"
lets look at ppc's 70 ppc's in 1 bay/arc would be legit and max out a 70ff "bay" however those 70 ppc's only weigh 490 tons plus another 700 tons of heat sinks to keep them chilled sure its ~1200 tons  but if I remember right you MIGHT be able to fit 1 light naval ppc or so for that tonnage

now I kinda like the idea of fighters being able to possibly crit a cap ship, while not being able to do significant damage to its hull/hit points

Hephestus

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #112 on: 30 November 2012, 19:02:46 »
you could have standard and capital-class weapon bays with standard bays limited to 70 points of normal damage, not capital damage

evilauthor

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #113 on: 30 November 2012, 23:48:17 »
you could have standard and capital-class weapon bays with standard bays limited to 70 points of normal damage, not capital damage

And what's to stop designers from splitting those 70 PPCs into 10 separate bays? IIRC, there's no limit on the number of BAYS a section can have. So you're not encouraging designers to carry fewer weapons; you're encouraging designers to make MORE bays which would bog actual play down even more because now instead of one To Hit role, you're making TEN.

And then there's all the tech nerds who are going to rage at the rules as being as arbitrary and unrealistic as the original weapon limit rules.

Hephestus

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #114 on: 01 December 2012, 00:02:03 »
if u read my previous posts I suggested changing fire control limits from number of weapons per arc to number of bays

dragonkid11

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #115 on: 01 December 2012, 09:43:00 »
if u read my previous posts I suggested changing fire control limits from number of weapons per arc to number of bays

It actually make much more logical sense this way....

I mean,a NAC40 would definitely need more computing power than a small laser.

I think the capital weapon bay limit and standard weapon bay limit should be separated.
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Wolflord

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #116 on: 01 December 2012, 11:20:42 »
I would expect the computing requirements of the fire control system to be largely dependent on range, target velocity, own velocity, projectile velocity, and weapon stabilisation. All of these would have a significant impact on the computing power required but computer hardware doesn't weigh all that much.

Personally I'd like a solution more like the old Star Trek starship combat simulator game that FASA had out years ago. Don't ask for details as I have literally this morning put it and a whole bunch of other stuff into storage for another work related relocation  >:(

idea weenie

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #117 on: 01 December 2012, 13:48:03 »
Personally I'd like a solution more like the old Star Trek starship combat simulator game that FASA had out years ago. Don't ask for details as I have literally this morning put it and a whole bunch of other stuff into storage for another work related relocation  >:( 

Is that the one where you design a ship with a computer that has a certain fire control capacity, and the weapons all have their own fire control demands?  I think I remember that game, played it once.  Of course if you went with this option, that would be an extra column needed on the weapons chart for all the weapons.

Personally, I'd allow more armor, resistant armor (so it subtracts a few points of standard damage from each shot of incoming fire), and setting it where BT range weapons mainly do critical damage to external ship components (or internals only through damaged armor).  You want to damage Capital Armor?  Use Capital Weapons.  The fun part is the more mounts you have for external weapons, the thinner the armor is going to be per ton (reflecting the need stretch the ship to fit all the weapons so they can fire).  This would be based on a square or cube root of the weapon tonnage, reflecting that only the surface of the ship matters for armor.  So larger weapons would be useful for larger ships, since they take up relatively less surface area.

I.e. A single Heavy Naval PPC does 150 pts standard damage, and masses 3000 tons.  If you use the square root option, it takes up 54.8 surface area.  If you use the cube root option, it takes up 14.4 surface area.

15 regular PPCs also do 150 pts standard damage, and mass 105 tons.  If you use the square root option, they take up 39.7 surface area (each PPC takes up ~2.65, times 15 of them).  If you use the cube root option, they take up 28.7 surface area (each PPC takes up ~1.9, times fifteen of them).

Combine that with a form of resistant armor (very heavy, and gets much heavier per point), so the PPCs lose larger fractions of their firepower each (1 pt of resistant armor means combining fire from all those 15 PPCs will only do 135 pts of damage, rather than 150), and you have heavy armor that will resist most damage from BT scale weapons.  Anti-shipping strikes would be performed with PPCs, Thunderbolts, AC/10 and AC/20, Gauss Rifles (not Light), etc.

Dropships might only mount 1 or 2 pts, to deal with swarms of enemy infantry and light weapons.  Light Warships might mount 3-4 pts, to effectively neuter medium laser armed pests.  The largest warships would mount 10 pts of resistant armor, meaning only Thunderbolts, AC/20, and HGR can be effectively used in anti-shipping strikes on them.

Wolflord

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #118 on: 01 December 2012, 13:55:41 »
Yes certain sizes of ship, sizes of engine, shield generators and weapons were dependent on using a certain master computer from the range available to each faction.

Each faction (I guess we would only need one in BTech) had certain advantages and disadvantages with regard to the available tech. Short version was that the federation had the best tech except for small ships where the Orions were best, the Romulan and Klingon stuff was OK and the Gorn and Tholian stuff was poor.

evilauthor

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Re: Is it time to change the WarShip rules?
« Reply #119 on: 01 December 2012, 16:50:47 »
Shouldn't fire control gear, extra armoring, etc etc be included as part of the weapon's tonnage allocation?

How about this idea: the more bays you have in an arc, the more vulnerable to crits that arc becomes, because each bay is effectively a hole in your armor that you're sticking weapons into.

Alternatively, impose a stacking Armor Points penalty for going over the weapon count limits in an arc. This represents the need for additional armoring that all these weapons need.

 

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