Tell Me About...The Guillotine

[Southern Coyote]

I have no experience with this mech but it looks solid on paper.  This is an SLDF Classic, and I've had good experience with SLDF mechs in the past (Black Knight, Highlander, King Crab). 

So, how does the Guillotine handle?

[TigerShark]

I'm surprised. That's one of the most iconic designs of any era.  :o

If you're used to Clan warfare (your signature says you are), it reminds me a bit of the Nova's Prime configuration. It's a lot of energy spam up close. The caveat is that you also have a bit of crit-seeking in the SRM-6. It's a great guard unit for fire support, a brawler in cities or tight terrain and can be a real nuisance on hilly terrain where the jump jets come into play.

[Sartris]

I'm surprised. That's one of the most iconic designs of any era.  :o

If you're used to Clan warfare (your signature says you are), it reminds me a bit of the Nova's Prime configuration. It's a lot of energy spam up close. The caveat is that you also have a bit of crit-seeking in the SRM-6. It's a great guard unit for fire support, a brawler in cities or tight terrain and can be a real nuisance on hilly terrain where the jump jets come into play.

Concur. I also enjoy the GLT-8D.  Why less heat efficient, it rakes up close with 4 ER meds, a streak 6 and TC.  It also has bonus long range firepower with twin ERLL.

[martian]

It's very similar to GHR-5H Grasshopper. There are important differences: Guillotine lacks hands, but it has SRM-6 rack for critseeking which is more useful than Grasshopper's LRM-5 launcher.

Otherwise than that, three basical models GLT-3N, GLT-4L and GLT-5M are almost the same. Guillotine is mobile heavy durable 'Mech with very effective short-range armament. GLT-4P is less known Succession Wars refit of GLT-4L which trades Large laser for PPC. It sounds good because the number of SHS stayed the same. But then you notice that the protection decreased from 192 points to 160 points, and you will say: No, thanks.

Is there anyone who does wonder that Davions got their optimized version GLT-8D with ER lasers, Targeting Computer, double heat sinks and Streak missile system?

Two Blakist upgrades are just average units. They waste two tons on C³i computer which is useless because it's very easy to jam (not to talk about its BV).
GLT-6WB is slightly better, it has got standard engine and one explosive critical. However, it has small cockpit. The obvious problem is putting two weapons with minimum range (HPPC and LRM-15) on design which should operate in the vicinity of enemy. At least that HPPC can offer headcapping capability. But different weapon would have been better.
For me, GLT-6WB2 is the worst variant. First, the engine was changed for XL model, so the durability is decreased. Second problem, four of six weapons have minimum range - Light Gauss Rifle, LRM-5 with Artemis IV, and two Light PPCs. Two ER Medium are just backup weapons. Interesting is the movement curve 4/6/6 - it suggests (together with the armament and reduced protection) that GLT-6WB was intended as medium-range combatant. It may work for someone, but I'd like to use my Guillotine the way i am accustomed to.

The last is the post-Jihad model GLT-6WB3, available to Republic forces and the Army of the Marik-Stewart Commonwealth. It's evident that this is just Blakist GLT-6WB3 which lost C³i and gained Guardian ECM suite and C³ slave. C³ is useless, but thanks God it weighs just one ton.

[Arkansas Warrior]

My favorite Guillotine variant (as I suspect SC's is) is the chunky one.  Guillotine IIC  :)

[cold1]

My favorite Guillotine variant (as I suspect SC's is) is the chunky one.  Guillotine IIC  :)

It's not a secondline binary without a Gilly IIC and a Grizzly.


It's a fun IS mech though.  And I don't like IS mechs.

[Neufeld]

The Guillotine GLT-3N was a ground-breaking design when it was introduced in 2499, since it is the first mech that used Endo-Steel, and is probably the first design to mount four or more medium lasers.

[Colt Ward]

SL Guillotine has one huge advantage over the Clan's GLT IIC, the ammo is in a side torso not the center.  IMO, the ammo location is a travesty though I was looking for a simple refit of ATM from the SRMs.

The SL Guillotine did sort of get left out by the tech upgrades until you get the crazy Blakist tech heaps.  I like the simplicity of the original, it just needs more ER on the weapons, Doubles for the singles even upgrades still pack (and I am a fan of Singles on some designs) and replacing the SRM for a MML with some of the advanced armor or internals would have been the way to go.  Something like a GLT-5M2.

Honestly, for the main ones you will see, use them like you would a Grasshopper.  You just have to realize you have some actual crit ability in the regular SRM loads.

[Red Pins]

...Ahhh.  One of my favorites at last!

The 'G' is a nasty opponent - in the -3N (note I'm reading from the original 2750), the design protects a solid 3rd of its firepower in the torsos, while keeping the longest-ranged weapon and a pair of secondaries in the arms with the widest possible arcs.  Being able to fire the Lgl and the 4 MLs while Jumping is a bonus, and the 6-P could be used for only a slight heat increase or substituted for the 4th beam, so the Guillotine has a bit extra crit-seeking ability.
This isn't a knockdown-fighter, its a bodyguard or attack unit to hack at an opponent's armor again and again until bigger guns open a hole.

Frankly, the -3N is my favorite classic.  Its tough, hard to hit the weapons through the heatsinks, and while it packs a light weapons load for a Heavy its going to use them for a while.  The -5M is my favorite 'modern' variant - the ER-Lgl is the logical weapon to add a bit of advanced technology.  Its the -3N all over again.  The -8D marks the high point of the design improvements, but the strain to keep cool makes bracket fire necessary and takes away some of its flavor.  I would have preferred increasing other aspects to create a cavalry unit, adding MASC, replacing the 6-P with 2 4-P (ST), and keeping the rest of the -5Ms weapons while making the arm-mounted MLs Extended Range weapons.  Fortunately, that's what HMPro is for.

The -4L is a slight dumbing down of the original - the loss takes away the ability to fire all 4 of the MLs and Walk while adding its only real danger; ammo explosion.  It takes away some of the original's zombie-like charm, and makes it harder to deliver the sanding to an enemy's armor that kills it.  That said, I've seen worse variants.

The -4P is the weakest of the bunch; with only 10 tons of armor, the -4P sacrifices a bit of endurance in exchange for a bigger, better, gun.  Its best used to keep enemies with similar secondary weapons at range - bodyguard duty or fire support again.

I'm not personally familiar with the -6WB or -6WB2.  The -6WB would probably use the H-PPC and LRM for bracket fire at range and keep the ER-MLs in reserve for a closer-ranged flashbulb, while the single ton of ammo makes me think Thunder rounds would be preferred for the LRMs to better keep enemies from closing.  The FF, compact gyro, and small cockpit seem in line with the traditional roles, helping it stay in action longer and using the C3i to assist in targeting.  The -6WB2 is more a cavalry unit, I think.  Its a bit puzzling that it uses I-JJs to boost its jump radius (thus speed), but uses paired L-PPCs and a Light Gauss Rifle as its main weapons.  Frankly I consider this a deliberately flawed design, and the fluff about attempting to confuse opponents with such a radical change so much nonsense.  It should be considered as an separate design, but I wouldn't use it given a choice.

I won't go into the Clan IIC versions.

Overall, I curse that it was produced by Irian in the FWL.  I would far prefer it be produced by the Davions or the Marion Hegemony, my current faction, but I'm still happy to see it widely available.

[Taurevanime]

I personally love the Guillotine, it is a 'Mech that very nicely showcases the large laser and that it is not a poor weapon like a fair few people I know claim it to be. And the 8D model doubly so. (Though I do wonder where the 8D is made or if it's just a refit of FWL bought 'Mechs.)

I will say though that C3 isn't useless, if you get targetting data to put that Heavy PPC into a shorter range bracket, you are going to hit a lot more and pile on the hurt. I would say the LRMs are the equipment that was a poor choice on the Blakist designs.

[Savage Coyote]

C3 and C3i are defiantly not useless.  Even with ECM's out there, you'd be surprised how often you hook up some heavy hitters at max range with good numbers.  Now the argument about BV and stuff....

Of course if you game it and KNOW you are fighting C3 networks in advance, you spam a ton of ecm and think you are a great player, when in fact, you really aren't   :D

I think the IS tech versions are covered by several posters... I'll touch the Clan ones, or at least the one I had the chance to submit to RS:3060.

Guillotine IIc:
Ammo in the center torso is unfortunate, though it's other weapons help to make up for it some.  You do have to really watch it as the heat will spike in a hurry if you aren't carefull, but the twin LPL's and ERPPC can get someones attention in a hurry.  It's pretty sturdy minus the center torso ammo, and can play hop-a-long like any other Guillotine.

Guillotine IIc 2:
As the designer, I set out to match the miniature and use TW tech at the same time (it was kind of our mission so to speak.)  I'd already done the 4S Blitzkrieg and so was wanting to do something relatively simple, so IJJ's seemed to be the answer.  I crammed six of them in there, kept the PPC, traded the LPL's out for ER Mediums, and used a SSRM-4, moving the ammo to a side torso.  TC ties it all together with the same sinks.  Armor also went up to max.  I was going for a more "original" look, as it was always a little weird to me that the arm mediums in the SL model became LPL's.  In hindsight, I wish I'd used a LPL in place of the ERPPC, but that's how it is.  I've never played with it (the bv tag is 2720's) but the one report of play was favorable (check out StCpt Mara's GenCon thread for that story.)  I'm not sure it's worth the BV tag so I guess I should play with it some and see if it's really worth it.  It is in my mind, but you know how that goes :)

[TigerShark]

I've never experienced the ammunition issue with the Clan Guillotine. Mostly because we always play with floating critical hits and they don't frequently hit the Center Torso location. I suppose under TW rules it's a bit more frequent, but then again, wouldn't the Mech be in trouble from a Gyro or Engine hit anyhow? CT and Head are the best locations for ammo, IMO.

[Taurevanime]

I've never experienced the ammunition issue with the Clan Guillotine. Mostly because we always play with floating critical hits and they don't frequently hit the Center Torso location. I suppose under TW rules it's a bit more frequent, but then again, wouldn't the Mech be in trouble from a Gyro or Engine hit anyhow? CT and Head are the best locations for ammo, IMO.

I agree, especially on 'Mechs that carry an XL engine, since you will be out of the fight before that ammo bomb becomes an issue. And even on standard engines it works because you have to be pretty crazy or desperate to keep fighting with your side torsos missing. It's why I never understood the complaint about the AMS ammo being in the center torso for the Penetrator.
And though the head is great position as well due to how rare it gets hit, I don't put it there for psychological reasons XD

[Colt Ward]

Some standard engine mechs, like the Blood Kite and Stooping Hawk C, can fight on when they are reduced to their CT.

Wonder if that says something about Blood Spirit engineers or mechwarriors?

[Arkansas Warrior]

Accountants.  The Clan is so resource-poor they can't afford many XL-engined designs.  If you're going to go standard anyway, why not design it where thy can fight as long as possible?  No warrior wants to lose both side torsos and be alive but powerless to fight back.

[TigerShark]

Some standard engine mechs, like the Blood Kite and Stooping Hawk C, can fight on when they are reduced to their CT.

Wonder if that says something about Blood Spirit engineers or mechwarriors?

Says more about the writers. ;-) Long-range weapons in the CT are not very common, at all. That's usually one of the choices in custom-building which draws a rolling of the eyes from opponents since you've effectively made a zombie. I think the writers tend to stay away from such utilitarian designs, unless they are justified somewhere in the fluff.

[Headshot]

(Though I do wonder where the 8D is made or if it's just a refit of FWL bought 'Mechs.)

Draconis March refit with lasers bought from the OA, just like the Black Knight and Ostsol.

[God and Davion]

C3 and C3i are defiantly not useless.  Even with ECM's out there, you'd be surprised how often you hook up some heavy hitters at max range with good numbers.  Now the argument about BV and stuff....

Of course if you game it and KNOW you are fighting C3 networks in advance, you spam a ton of ecm and think you are a great player, when in fact, you really aren't   :D

I think the IS tech versions are covered by several posters... I'll touch the Clan ones, or at least the one I had the chance to submit to RS:3060.

Guillotine IIc:
Ammo in the center torso is unfortunate, though it's other weapons help to make up for it some.  You do have to really watch it as the heat will spike in a hurry if you aren't carefull, but the twin LPL's and ERPPC can get someones attention in a hurry.  It's pretty sturdy minus the center torso ammo, and can play hop-a-long like any other Guillotine.

Guillotine IIc 2:
As the designer, I set out to match the miniature and use TW tech at the same time (it was kind of our mission so to speak.)  I'd already done the 4S Blitzkrieg and so was wanting to do something relatively simple, so IJJ's seemed to be the answer.  I crammed six of them in there, kept the PPC, traded the LPL's out for ER Mediums, and used a SSRM-4, moving the ammo to a side torso.  TC ties it all together with the same sinks.  Armor also went up to max.  I was going for a more "original" look, as it was always a little weird to me that the arm mediums in the SL model became LPL's.  In hindsight, I wish I'd used a LPL in place of the ERPPC, but that's how it is.  I've never played with it (the bv tag is 2720's) but the one report of play was favorable (check out StCpt Mara's GenCon thread for that story.)  I'm not sure it's worth the BV tag so I guess I should play with it some and see if it's really worth it.  It is in my mind, but you know how that goes :)

The Guillotine is one of the best heavy mechs of the earlier eras. And the Guillotine IIC is very, very good. I have done horrible things with one in a tournament and people here admire it for the rather heavy firepower.

[RunandFindOut]

Agreed The Guillotine IIC is a beautiful mass of jumpy death. 

[Hellraiser]

So, how does the Guillotine handle? 

If you can hanlde a G-Hopper you can handle a Guillotine.
Its a brute, one of my favorite designs in all configurations.

Two Blakist upgrades are just average units. They waste two tons on C³i computer which is useless because it's very easy to jam (not to talk about its BV).
The last is the post-Jihad model GLT-6WB3, available to Republic forces and the Army of the Marik-Stewart Commonwealth. It's evident that this is just Blakist GLT-6WB3 which lost C³i and gained Guardian ECM suite and C³ slave. C³ is useless, but thanks God it weighs just one ton.

Not sure why the hate against C3,  I've fought this one & its no pushover.
Its basically a "blakist" version of the 8D as "bracket" shooter.

Overall, I curse that it was produced by Irian in the FWL.  I would far prefer it be produced by the Davions or the Marion Hegemony, my current faction, but I'm still happy to see it widely available.

It is produced by the Davions.
8D is made by Kallon on Talon IIRC.

(Though I do wonder where the 8D is made or if it's just a refit of FWL bought 'Mechs.) 

I will say though that C3 isn't useless,

See my note above..... and Agreed on C3.

[Hellraiser]

I've never experienced the ammunition issue with the Clan Guillotine. Mostly because we always play with floating critical hits and they don't frequently hit the Center Torso location. I suppose under TW rules it's a bit more frequent, but then again, wouldn't the Mech be in trouble from a Gyro or Engine hit anyhow? CT and Head are the best locations for ammo, IMO. 

2 Issues.
First the GTN-IIC can take an Engine w/ minimal issues, even a Gyro still means you just pull back to Long Range & Snipe.   The CT ammo means DEAD, totally Destroyed, nothing to even salvage.
Second, the ammo has always been in the RT, then on the IIC its moved, it just doesn't make sense.

Draconis March refit with lasers bought from the OA, just like the Black Knight and Ostsol.

See my note above,  I'm pretty sure one of the FS books has it being produced by Kallon.

[Scotty]

It's a 1/11 chance of getting a critical on the ammo bin in the CT if the CT starts taking criticals.  I'd say that if you're taking criticals to the CT, you're either the victim of bad luck and it wouldn't matter where the ammo is, or you should be withdrawing anyway.

[Hellraiser]

It's a 1/11 chance of getting a critical on the ammo bin in the CT if the CT starts taking criticals.  I'd say that if you're taking criticals to the CT, you're either the victim of bad luck and it wouldn't matter where the ammo is, or you should be withdrawing anyway. 

1 in 12 actually.
Which doesn't mean it was acceptable to move it from the Zombielike RT location over to the CT.

[martian]

Not sure why the hate against C3,  I've fought this one & its no pushover.

For the BV price and tonnage of C³ network I can field much more durable force with greater firepower and a half dozen of Guardian ECM suites that can comfortably jam enemy's C³ network. Something like this:
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,19065.msg440030.html#msg440030

It is produced by the Davions.
8D is made by Kallon on Talon IIRC.

See my note above,  I'm pretty sure one of the FS books has it being produced by Kallon.

Are you sure? Because I checked my books and I can't find a mention about GLT-8D produced by Davions (as new build), I'd say they are refits of GLT-5Ms bought from the FWL. They use the same chassis with CASE in the right torso.

[TigerShark]

2 Issues.
First the GTN-IIC can take an Engine w/ minimal issues, even a Gyro still means you just pull back to Long Range & Snipe.   The CT ammo means DEAD, totally Destroyed, nothing to even salvage.
Second, the ammo has always been in the RT, then on the IIC its moved, it just doesn't make sense.

See my note above,  I'm pretty sure one of the FS books has it being produced by Kallon.

It does make sense since it's a different design. The Guillotine IIC also has two Large Pulse Lasers. Location of weapons or ammo bins is not a prerequisite for being a variant and never has been.

Also, if the CT is crit packed, it means a 1-in-12 chance of hitting the ammunition bin. Given that I play with floating criticals, the chance of that being hit is 1-in-60. If the CT is open for a normal crit, (a) you're probably dead anyhow and (b) it's still only 1-in-12. That's far better than putting an ammo bin in a side torso where the chance is less than 1-in-6, don't you agree?

[Colt Ward]

Except if that bin gets hit the machine is destroyed.  In a side torso, the SFE machine can fight on.  Its also a big difference in a campaign game.

[Hellraiser]

Are you sure? Because I checked my books and I can't find a mention about GLT-8D produced by Davions (as new build), I'd say they are refits of GLT-5Ms bought from the FWL. They use the same chassis with CASE in the right torso. 

I'm 75%.   I'm thinking it was maybe one of the newer FS books ?
New House Davion Sourcebook or Objectives-FS ?
I don't recall where but I do recall being extatic when I read it.

[Red Pins]

...Perhaps the fan book, Objective Raids: 3067?

[martian]

...Perhaps the fan book, Objective Raids: 3067?

Yes, I think so. But that's just a fan-made book, non-canon work.

[TigerShark]

Yes, I think so. But that's just a fan-made book, non-canon work.

It's an interesting source, but I find myself having to cross-check the sources a little too often for it to be useful. Some of the data seems to come out of nowhere.