Why the Clans lost

[TheBroker]

Now I am not trying to be inflammatory,but I would like to know everyone's opinion on why the Clans lost the invasion?
personally,I am of the crowd that says the Crusaders were hampered by the Wardens.The Clans had Warships(which were bid away because a Warden Khan and his bondsman did not like the realities of war).
The Clans had a strategy(which was destroyed when the Wolves preempted the others in launching their invasion).The Clans had momentum(until the Warden Ilkhan proposed the Tukayyid trials).It is my belief that the Invasion would have been successful under a Crusader.

[Hawkeye Jim]

The Ilkhan who launched the invasion was a Crusader.

[Jaim Magnus]

Yes, but he's making the point that the invasion suffered under the leadership of Ulric.

[TheBroker]

Yes
The Clans were unstoppable on every front until Ulric.(granted the loss of their "alien" mystique did damage their offensive)

[Darthvegeta800]

Well as a historian by trade I cannot help but compare them to certain things in history.
The Clans to me remind me a bit of the Knightly Orders, especially the Teutonic Knights. (and quite a few other organisations and factions throughout history)
A narrowminded elite that stood over their enemies for a long time through willpower, good training, good tech, fanatic devotion to their cause and invoking a sense of dread in their enemies.
However their strength is their weakness. The fact they are so narrowminded, elitist and ruthless caused many to utterly hate them. On top of that just like for instance the Teutonic Knights, the Clans lack manpower when it comes to their upper elite. There is a kind of non-literal inbreeding, a lack of 'new blood' / 'new ideas' weasling up amongst them.

Of course at the same time their weaknesses do not persay mean the end of them. For one the Teutonic Knights stayed on quite a long time even after (the overrated) Battle of Tannenberg. And eventually part of them did evolve into something new.

The Clans too are in part evolving, more than they may like to admit. And whereas the Falcons may be far more traditional than some others, the Ghost Bears in turn have a mild scent of Prussia about them in that they took a dramatically different route while maintaining part of their belief in martial prowess and honor.

[MechTheDane]

The writers did them in.

A semi-communistic eugenic culture was never meant to defeat virtuous feudal freebirths.

Short of that, yeah I'm going with it's the Warden/Ulric's fault.
The annoying thing is the Warden's philosophy seems to mean that they do nothing and slowly become another interchangeable IS faction; or even worse an IS Houses's glorified mercenary force.
Not really sure how that falls into Nick Kerensky's view for the clans - them slowly losing their ways to IS 'barbarism'.
Nor do I see it really being similar to Aleksandr Kerensky's views either.. he took those warriors off the table just so that they couldn't be used as a tool of the Great Houses for greater destruction.
Except now they are.

[TheBroker]

tell me about it!
The Warden ideology is contrary to all that it means to be Clan!

[Arkansas Warrior]

The invasion was at its most successful under Wardens.  The Wolves advanced farther than any other Clan.  The Wolves were the only clan to accopmplish their objectives on Tukayyid.  If the Invading Clans hadn't included the Wolves the invasion wouldn't have reached as far as fast, and still would never have reached  Terra.  There's just too much in the IS.  It's like invading Russia or China, you can take the most highly trained, high tech, highly motivated army in the world into Russia, and you'll lose.  There's just too much territory.  You can take the same force into China, you'll lose.  They've got too many people for them to throw at you.  There are worlds in the IS with several times the entire population of the Clans, of which the warriors are something like .01%.  There's no way that force could ever take and hold the IS without collaboration from its people, something the Wardens proved most able to secure.

[Stormfury]

The Clans had Warships(which were bid away because a Warden Khan and his bondsman did not like the realities of war).

Not the case. Phelan didn't like the idea of Rasalhague being like Turtle Bay, but his advice to Ulric was to bid the Dire Wolf away in order to obtain an early advantage in the bidding. That other Clans regularly employed this new bidding strategy after Rasalhague is entirely their own choice.

The Clans had a strategy(which was destroyed when the Wolves preempted the others in launching their invasion).

Again, no. The other Clans were failing to reach the initial targets set. The Bears couldn't deal with insurgents, the Smoke Jaguars were underperforming despite being up against the incompetant Pesht Regulars, and the Falcons were moving slowly.

Leo Showers' attempt to censure Ulric was based entirely on his personal issues with him, and he knew it would be unClanlike to target the Wolves for actually succeeding where so many had failed. What he had on his side was politics, not proof.

The Clans had momentum(until the Warden Ilkhan proposed the Tukayyid trials).

The Clans lost their momentum at the end of 3050, with the death of Showers and the Year of Peace giving the Inner Sphere time to upgrade, entrench, and redeploy elite units to the front. Tukayyid was the Clans' best chance of capturing Terra.

It is my belief that the Invasion would have been successful under a Crusader.

Of course, the rather inept performance of the Clans occurred under Leo Showers, a vorciferous Crusader, whilst the renewed Invasion of '52 benefitted from Warden insights and patience. So, that'll be a no on that, too.

[MechTheDane]

I think that's my biggest issue with how it all ended.

Who are the Warden's Wardening?! How are they protecting the Inner Sphere from? From the Crusader clans; from themselves?
That makes no sense if you consider the germ of their entire way of thought came from what Aleksandr Kerensky said about them returning.
I seriously doubt when he said they were going to return one day to ward over the inner sphere that he meant, "One day the SLDF will return in order to protect the IS from the SLDF!" If the only people they are protecting the IS from is themselves, I feel like the cohesion of that logic falls apart.

Maybe, just maybe I can tolerate the whole Warden being a bad idea. A Theoretical consideration that in theory sounds really good. "Yeah we'll come back to the IS and watch over them and protect them with our superior tech and genes and warrior-training." However once they actually went through with it, they all suddenly realize they err of it. The theory seemed sound, but in practice it was riddled with holes.

Which is why not long after the Great Refusal, especially when the neo-SLDF finally fell..the Warden clans should have taken an about-face... and changed their philosophical allegiances. At that point it was obvious that they were not going to form with the IS into a new SLDF, but instead it would quickly devolve into business as usual; which the clans were supposed to abhor.

Although I am not sure if any would admit this...many of the Warden clans in the IS end up pretty messed up. Look at clan Wolf-In-Exile, they are hardly a clan anymore. And Clan Nova Cat, so willing to turn on the clans in the name of the new SLDF.. they became Kurita's vassal and whipping boy.

[Diablo48]

Honestly, I think the biggest reason was the ramming of the Dire Wolf which killed Leo Showers and broke the momentum of the Clans.  Up until that point the IS had been scrambling forces in piecemeal with no good information and getting slaughtered, but the break to elect a new ilKhan gave them time to rebuild, get forces into position, and work out counter strategies.

Of course, even so nothing could have saved the IS if the Clans did not stick to their honor code because they could have smashed all IS military assets from orbit and crushed the survivors with an overwhelming assault with superior numbers of superior units.

[MechTheDane]

Honestly, I think the biggest reason was the ramming of the Dire Wolf which killed Leo Showers and broke the momentum of the Clans.  Up until that point the IS had been scrambling forces in piecemeal with no good information and getting slaughtered, but the break to elect a new ilKhan gave them time to rebuild, get forces into position, and work out counter strategies.

Yeah that's what I meant when I said the writers. The Clans got all the bad breaks, because they were supposed to represent something our western ideals teach us to dislike. Socialism/eugenics etc..

[Hawkeye Jim]

If the invading Clans had actually conquered the IS, the Homeworld Clans would have come in to take it away from them. Then instead of 5 squabbling states, you'd have had 17 of them.

Besides, Wolverine already had Terra, so they were the IlClan.

[Diamondshark]

I think it's because not only did they not send enough Clans (the whole attacking force should have hit at once, rather than waves), then they failed to recognize their enemy as being too inherently dishonorable to use Zell against, and then when they lost Tukayyid, they forgot their purposes, and started fighting in all the wrong places.  Eg: letting the Jaguars die, the Falcons and Wolves quarreling, and the outside clans turning on their border states instead of preparing for a new push when the treaty expires. 

[TheBroker]

"Phelan didn't like the idea of Rasalhague being like Turtle Bay, but his advice to Ulric was to bid the Dire Wolf away in order to obtain an early advantage in the bidding. That other Clans regularly employed this new bidding strategy after Rasalhague is entirely their own choice."

The Clans were built to be in competition with each other,so when the Wolves bidded away an edge the other clans were obliged to do so as well.Ulric must have known this and was fine with the Clans throwing away an enormous advantage.

"Again, no. The other Clans were failing to reach the initial targets set. The Bears couldn't deal with insurgents, the Smoke Jaguars were underperforming despite being up against the incompetant Pesht Regulars, and the Falcons were moving slowly."

The Smoke Jags were losing,but when the Bears came to help the Dracs were hit back on their heels.

"Leo Showers' attempt to censure Ulric was based entirely on his personal issues with him, and he knew it would be unClanlike to target the Wolves for actually succeeding where so many had failed. What he had on his side was politics, not proof."

I agree that it was personal,but Ulric was dangerous to the clans.It should be personal.

"The Clans lost their momentum at the end of 3050, with the death of Showers and the Year of Peace giving the Inner Sphere time to upgrade, entrench, and redeploy elite units to the front. Tukayyid was the Clans' best chance of capturing Terra."

The Death of Leo Showers correlates with the election of Ulric...my point.As for Tukayyid,it should never have happened in the first place.It was Ulrics way to try and halt the clans.

"Of course, the rather inept performance of the Clans occurred under Leo Showers, a vorciferous Crusader, whilst the renewed Invasion of '52 benefitted from Warden insights and patience. So, that'll be a no on that, too."

The invasion that "benefited" from the Wardens was unsuccessful,while the Crusader's invasion secured an enormous Inner Sphere Base
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[Bren]

The defeat of warriors who had seemed invincible, who had shaken the best soldiers of the Inner Sphere, was hard to explain. The best explanation was given by the ilKhan himself, who said, 'Our bidding promotes brilliance and audacity, but it also minimizes losses.' Their elaborate rituals for fighting serve as much to promote the survival of the Clans by limiting who can fight and for what, as to encourage warriors to be their best. An absolute minimum of warriors are allowed to risk their lives, and it discourages further fighting to satisfy vendettas and revenge.

The Clans' rules of engagement have worked so well that the last time the Clans fought an extended campaign was during the Exodus Civil Wars, 250 years ago. As a result, the Clans display great tactical wizardry, but little strategic skill.

[E. Icaza]

The writers did them in.

A semi-communistic eugenic culture was never meant to defeat virtuous feudal freebirths.

Short of that, yeah I'm going with it's the Warden/Ulric's fault.
The annoying thing is the Warden's philosophy seems to mean that they do nothing and slowly become another interchangeable IS faction; or even worse an IS Houses's glorified mercenary force.
Not really sure how that falls into Nick Kerensky's view for the clans - them slowly losing their ways to IS 'barbarism'.
Nor do I see it really being similar to Aleksandr Kerensky's views either.. he took those warriors off the table just so that they couldn't be used as a tool of the Great Houses for greater destruction.
Except now they are.

Very much this.

[Stockus13]

Well in hindsight Ulric saved the invaders.

The invading clans would never had made it to Terra.And would have lost most of their frontline Galaxies in the IS. And that may have resulted in the HW clans absorbing the weakened clans. You never know.

Ulric bought time for the clans to learn how to fight extended campaigns.in theory at least.

In practice the writers kept clanners from learning from their mistakes.

Oh well.

[Southern Coyote]

Well, if you truly want to look at it from a historical perspective, the Clans haven't lost yet.  They fell into the problem that faces every conquering army: being forced to consolidate and garrison the territories taken, or run the risk of being attacked from behind. 

While the Clans were forced to slow down and eventually stop their march towards Terra (a negative), the time allowed them to consolidate their I.S. holdings, re-develop lost infrastructure, and help their newly conquered peoples accept and perhaps even come to respect their new found government.  This, in turn, allows the Clans to become more entrenched, helping to ensure their survival against other clans or I.S. powers.  In time, any one of the Spheroid Clans could actually make a play at Terra have a decent shot at making it...

[joechummer]

I think four major factors did the Clans in:

1.  Logistics - All of the Clans except Wolf did not properly plan their logistics.  This led to garrison problems and caused most of the invading Clans to waste time quelling rebellious populations.  This problem resulted in the need to activate the Vipers for garrison duty (mostly on Ghost Bear worlds) and forced ilKhan Showers to allow the deployment of PGCs that were not bid for the invasion.
 
2.  Lack of cooperation - Rather than work together, the invading Clans were in competition with each other.  If they worked together, they would have been able to work faster (none of this bidding over worlds that abutted two invasion corridors) and they would have been able to share or cycle troops during Tukayyid like the Com Guards did.

3.  Sacrificing momentum for tradition - The Year of Peace cost the Clans their momentum.  During that time, the mystique of the Clans being alien invaders vanished and gave Spheroid commanders time to learn about the Clans and train themselves on how to counter their tactics.  The best thing the Clans could have done was to hold a Grand Kurultai in the Inner Sphere and have the Khans still in the homeworlds attend via real-time HPG, vote for a new ilKhan, and proceed forthwith.

4.  Tactics rather than strategy - The Clans are used to short engagements, which is why most of the Clans (except Wolf) ran out of expendables during the 20-day battle of Tukayyid.  If you think about it, Operation Revival is one of the longest campaigns the Clans fought.  Klondike lasted a year (or nearly a year and a half for Babylon and Dagda), the Vipers and Ravens fought over Hellgate for two years, and so on.  For a Clan military campaign in the homeworlds to last more than a year is the exception rather than the rule.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I think that's my biggest issue with how it all ended.

Who are the Warden's Wardening?! How are they protecting the Inner Sphere from? From the Crusader clans; from themselves?
That makes no sense if you consider the germ of their entire way of thought came from what Aleksandr Kerensky said about them returning.
I seriously doubt when he said they were going to return one day to ward over the inner sphere that he meant, "One day the SLDF will return in order to protect the IS from the SLDF!" If the only people they are protecting the IS from is themselves, I feel like the cohesion of that logic falls apart.

Maybe, just maybe I can tolerate the whole Warden being a bad idea. A Theoretical consideration that in theory sounds really good. "Yeah we'll come back to the IS and watch over them and protect them with our superior tech and genes and warrior-training." However once they actually went through with it, they all suddenly realize they err of it. The theory seemed sound, but in practice it was riddled with holes.

Which is why not long after the Great Refusal, especially when the neo-SLDF finally fell..the Warden clans should have taken an about-face... and changed their philosophical allegiances. At that point it was obvious that they were not going to form with the IS into a new SLDF, but instead it would quickly devolve into business as usual; which the clans were supposed to abhor.

Although I am not sure if any would admit this...many of the Warden clans in the IS end up pretty messed up. Look at clan Wolf-In-Exile, they are hardly a clan anymore. And Clan Nova Cat, so willing to turn on the clans in the name of the new SLDF.. they became Kurita's vassal and whipping boy.

So what you're saying is that, since we don't know of any enemies, there's no need to keep watch?  Besides, consider the Voice of Kerensky: 

Thus, we have left the only homes we have ever known to place the destructive capability of this armada beyond the reach of those who would use it, not for defense, but for conquest. Perhaps, with the might of our 'Mechs and ships out of reach, the leaders who now grapple with one another will relinquish their dreams of subjugating their neighbors and learn to live in peace with them.
Perhaps, one day, should mankind step back from the brink of the abyss, we, our children, or our children's children will return, to once more serve and protect and guide the Star League in mankind's quest for the stars.

He's concerned about the SLDF being used for conquest, not defense.  He hopes that one day they can return to serve, protect, and guide.   Does that sound more like the Wardens or Crusaders?  Of course, it was his half-crazy son who founded the Clans, so...

[SteveRestless]

I think, in part, its possible to protect the Inner Sphere (People of the Inner Sphere) from the Inner Sphere (Usurping Great Houses), Inner Sphere (Other Hostile Inner Sphere Forces) and from External Threats (Crusader Clans, Periphery Threats, Bird People from Far Country, Not-Named), and it seems paradoxical, but from a warden point of view, I can entirely see conquering the inner sphere, dethroning the unworthy great houses, and protecting the PEOPLE of the inner sphere.

[joechummer]

I think, in part, its possible to protect the Inner Sphere (People of the Inner Sphere) from the Inner Sphere (Usurping Great Houses), Inner Sphere (Other Hostile Inner Sphere Forces) and from External Threats (Crusader Clans, Periphery Threats, Bird People from Far Country, Not-Named), and it seems paradoxical, but from a warden point of view, I can entirely see conquering the inner sphere, dethroning the unworthy great houses, and protecting the PEOPLE of the inner sphere.

Exactly.  To quote a Warden in a certain BC story (see my sig):

"...I believe it is our sublime duty to ensure that the ashes of the Star League do not drown in their own filth."

[Stormfury]

The Clans were built to be in competition with each other,so when the Wolves bidded away an edge the other clans were obliged to do so as well.Ulric must have known this and was fine with the Clans throwing away an enormous advantage.

Have a look at the Jade Falcon and Wolf Clan Sourcebooks and tell me how often WarShips were actually a part of the final bid.

The difference in this situation is that the WarShips were removed first rather than at a later point in the bidding process.

The Smoke Jags were losing,but when the Bears came to help the Dracs were hit back on their heels.

This never happened.

The Death of Leo Showers correlates with the election of Ulric...my point.As for Tukayyid,it should never have happened in the first place.It was Ulrics way to try and halt the clans.

Again, no. Ulric recognised that fighting to Terra would have cost innumerable lives for both the Sphere and the Clans and attempted to mitigate that with a Trial in true Clan fashion. He then  picked the Com Guard apart and warned the other Clan Khans what to expect and advised them on how to win, and the other Khans responded by flat-out ignoring him. They lost because of their own vanity, not because of Ultic.

The invasion that "benefited" from the Wardens was unsuccessful,while the Crusader's invasion secured an enormous Inner Sphere Base

So why was the Wolf corridor the largest, then? How did they conquer the most planets and advance the fastest, again?

[joechummer]

So why was the Wolf corridor the largest, then? How did they conquer the most planets and advance the fastest, again?

The Wolf corridor (Beta) was the largest because it was mostly composed of FRR worlds which were considered to have inferior militaries compared the the mostly FedCom corridor won by the Falcons (Alpha) or the mostly DC corridor won by the Jaguars (Delta).  The ilKhan including the mostly Warden Wolves in the invasion AND giving them the least desirable corridor (which the Wolves did not even fight a Trial over) was considered a baldfaced insult to their Warden leanings.

Since the Beta corridor consisted of more worlds and was defended by Kungsarme units that were not as experienced as hardened DCMS or AFFC troops, the Wolves met far less resistance than other Clans did in their own respective corridors -- Rasalhague and Radstadt notwithstanding, of course.

[Stormfury]

Again, a common misconception. The Kungsarme are often written off, but when you actually look at their unit listings and skill, they are more than comparable with the other units fought during the Invasion. The Wolves still hit a reasonable number of FedCom worlds, too, and tore through the AFFC just as easily as they did the Rasalhagians. Then you've got Tukayyid, where Focht deliberately held back the best ComGuard troops he had for the Wolves, and they were still unable to hold Ulric's forces back.

[joechummer]

Again, a common misconception.

Yes, but it's the Clans' misconception.  You asked why the Wolves' corridor was the largest, and the Clans' collective underestimation of the dismissable "buffer state" is the reason why the Wolves were handed the assignment intended to garner the least amount of honor.

[Stormfury]

The Smoke Jaguars and Jade Falcons had the option of expanding along a broader wedge as well, but their relatively poor performances caused them to limit their scope.

Perceptions aside, the Wolves fought against the same type of opposition the other Clans did (probably against stiffer opposition than the Jaguars) and performed about as well as any two other Clans combined. That didn't happen at random...

[Hawkeye Jim]

Ulric had Natasha to help him. She knew how the fight the IS forces. The other Clans didn't have that kind of help.

[joechummer]

The Smoke Jaguars and Jade Falcons had the option of expanding along a broader wedge as well, but their relatively poor performances caused them to limit their scope.

Perceptions aside, the Wolves fought against the same type of opposition the other Clans did (probably against stiffer opposition than the Jaguars) and performed about as well as any two other Clans combined. That didn't happen at random...

Well, it's already been established that Ulric set advanced caches, maintained supply lines down the Exodus Road, and implemented the Logistical Augementation Program (i.e. looting local materiel for parts or supplies if you need to).  The Falcons, by contrast, had scrapped most of their civilian fleet and were forced to hire from the Free Guilds in order to maintain their supply lines.

Even if you have the best crack unit in the whole of creation, logistics (or lack thereof) can make or break any military force.

Also, as far as expanding their corridors, the Jags would've expanded into the Ghost Bears, not the Wolves (which may partly explain why the Bears' original OZ is so narrow compared to other invading Clans), and the only major planet bordering two Clans' corridors was bid over the right to invade was Rasalhague, IIRC.  The Falcons didn't expand as fast because they spent a lot of time in policing actions in their rearguard, not because of poor combat performance (Twycross aside).  Aside from a few setbacks, they were pretty much on schedule throughout the first 4 waves.  The Wolves just went faster because they had better logistics which allowed them to move well ahead of schedule.