Kampfgruppe Steiner II: Operation Eisenfaust

[dirty harry]

OK, i worked myself through TRO 3145 Steiner (especially the Mechs...) and the lyran part of the Era Report. And now my question is:

Is the Lyran Commonwealth deemed to fall due to writers hatred towards it?

Looking at the Era Report House Steiner failed in most undertakings. Supporting Comstar? Fail. Maybe even worse if they lower their cover and reveal themselfs as WoB. Letting a second aggressive clan taking the other flank? Total fail right from the start. Never ever understood that move, even after reading it two times. Just plane idiocy. And to alienate them was the next dump step. Raise of the social generals? Why? We were lucky to get rid of most of them and now those idiots claim important positions ... again?! Why?!?
Looking at our newest material i have to say, that we must be deemed to fall. If it is not build by some clan technicans, it is a fail. A few quite good Battle Armor (while we were not known to be the forefront of BA usage) and a good light fighter (while what remains of the LFW is more apt to fighters) cannot twist my opinion that we were fed with trash vehicles and crappy mechs like no other house.
Winterhawk APC? Paperthin armored hover with a senseless SRM. Will not do the job as it is scrapiron after the first heavy hit. DI VTOL? No hardhitting weapon on a field flodded with LB-X flak but tons of armor it will never need (may take two PPC hits from the front, but the rotor is as vulnerable as always). Swallow WIGE? Get away with that trash! No turret, no real range and not enough speed to take more than one critical beating slowing it down. Schildkröte? Must be a joke. 3/5 movement and no real beating weapons? Look at several capellan tanks and you know what tanks should look like. Manticore? XXL-engine and a full amphibious hull but no short range self defense. Will be kicked to death as every enemy tries to avoid the long range weapons. DI Schmitt suffers from its early birth during the Record Sheets Dark Age, which never knew something about heavy FF but still idiotic with standard flamers and massive tons of heat sinks. Second model with TC should be standard and not the craptastic base. Kelswa? Whoa... the first tank, that could do the job. Still slow, but wasn't anticipated in an other way. Gulltoppr? These are Long Tom CANNONs not LT ARTILLERY in two variants. It is a crawling bunker that tends to lean on its heavy hardened armor. But even that cannot hide, that is oversized and not immune against motive hits. And it is expensive like hell.
The new mechs are maybe even worth. Firestarter should have been part of the TRO Mercs as it is intended to be a merc mech. Jaguar is clan tech. As i said above, only the clan tech may survive. An ATM 9 and losing the silly SRMs is prevented by its first apperance in a novel. Storm Raider is pure crap. This trashcan can do nothing and i don't have an idea of what to do to improve its horrific performance. Mongrel? Who the hell ever needed the worst IS weapon and the equally useless butterknife in a clan mech?!? Rip off that trash and add a clanmade LB 10 X with two tons of ammo and it works! Gauntlet is nice, but looking at the capellan Vandal i still question the fixed integretation of a MASC. Why not a Supercharger saving weight and space? And please don't tell me to enter it afterwards. I never risk both systems at the same time and only the prime tries the supercavalry. Scourge is just a misled Jinggau copy. And it is beaten with a missing 5. jumpjet. The retro designed -WD1 is even worse as there was never a reason to drop the light FF. Ursa takes the MASC question to a new level. Why not ruining just one or two reactor criticals instead of all four legs? Götterdämmerung. Just another maximum armored 75 ton mech. Period. The new design idea leads to nothing but two torsobombs. Kick out the compact reactor and place something else in the torso sides and we can talk again. Zeus X. One more craptastic than the other, but suffering the same problem as the DI Schmitt. The all new -X4 doesn't save the day. And by the way... why does the house with the most clans around it never field a design of its own with a single clan weapon?!? Viking IIc is clan made. Those mechs were the only ones to impress me. King Crab has to many unneeded weapons (light ACs and standard medium lasers) and a small cockpit. It misses punch or (and...) range and needs a better pilot as it is a fire magnet. Even worth than some redesigns 60 - 70 years ago.

So if these books and their content are signs of what to come, i am really shocked. Are we doomed by TPTBs hatred toward this house?

[Øystein]

Lets make one thing clear:

There is no such thing as "author hatred" towards any faction or anything. The state of the Lyran Commonwealth is because TPTB decided it was a desired plot development, both on it's own and to facilitate/build up under other plot developments. You do not make it to being a core writers/developer without being able to differentiate between your likes and dislikes as a fan, and being a good writer. Blatant fanboys seldom survive their initial writing assignment, let alone being along long enough to be allowed to help plan the story development.

With regards,
Øystein

[Tai Dai Cultist]

For what my opinion is worth, all of the original five Great Houses have plot armor that prevents them from being wiped out.  House Marik may have 'fallen' for example, but they carry on in a form.  The worst that can happen to Steiner/Lyran Commonwealth is on display already.

Now if you take that presumption as being true, then Steiner's future is actually kind of bright.   You can't have an epic comeback without having been behind at halftime, afterall.


On the other hand, if you don't share my presumption (or are obliged to publicly refute it) you can still have hope.   All signs point to the Fortress walls coming down, and that must change the dynamic that put the Commonwealth in dire straights.  For example, if the Republic becomes a combatant, then the Jade Falcons and the Wolf Empire MUST deal with it.   Instantly Steiner's position becomes much improved because both of its most dangerous invaders have new fronts opening up.  Furthermore, the Republic has reason to be pissed at just about everyone.   House Steiner stands alone in the Inner Sphere as not having grabbed up Republic worlds after Grey Monday.  This means the forces coming out of the Republic are going to go anywhere BUT into the Commonwealth.  Not only that, but both are each other's only choice for cooperation or alliance.

Another fun thing to think about is ComStar.  Whether or not you believe plot armor protects the Great Houses, you might believe that ComStar has plot armor instead/in addition.   Sure, the decision to bankroll ComStar while HPGs were down turned out to have awful implications in the short term.. but assuming ComStar does NOT go under, then Steiner will have unprecedented leverage over the organization down the line.

[martian]

Is the Lyran Commonwealth deemed to fall due to writers hatred towards it?

Yes, it may happen - or maybe not. May I remind you that the Free Worlds League actually collapsed? There was no FWL for six decades (in universe) and many years (real world).

So if these books and their content are signs of what to come, i am really shocked. Are we doomed by TPTBs hatred toward this house?

I would say that the wisest thing you can do is to wait for the Field Manual: 3145. It should provide us with more details than the relatively brief (and differently focused) Era Report: 3145.

Looking at our newest material i have to say, that we must be deemed to fall.

Luckily, you may use some older 'Mechs, unless they have been explicitly labeled as "Extinct".

You don't like the KGC-009 King Crab? Okay. So take the older KGC-001. Its pair of Gauss Rifles is as effective as ever. Or KGC-007 with its paired RAC-5s and Plasma Rifle.

You don't like the ZEU-X4 Zeus? Okay. Try the old ZEU-9S2 Zeus. Yes, this old workhorse lacks the Reactive Armor - but it lacks the XXL Engine too.  ;) Or the ZEU-10WB with twin Heavy PPCs. Or the multipurpose ZEU-9T.

Etc.

Do not forget the the Lyran Alliance can import some good 'Mechs - the Neanderthal from the Regulan Fiefs, for example.

[False Son]

Wouldn't the victory at Hesperus II be an indication things are starting to turn around?  Not long before you had Alaric tricking Malvina into attacking Tharkad for him and bounced.  Now you have Trillian tricking Alaric and Malvina to attack each other and kicking them both off Hesperus II.

And I don't share the pessimism about the LyrCom's TRO.  I actually think it comes in a close 2nd to the FedSuns in terms of overall quality.  And, to be fair, FS only wins because of the Vulpes, Gunsmith, Atlas II and Black Knight.  LyrCom's overall quality is more evenly distributed.

[Savage Coyote]

umm... wow.  Have to say, you can't please anyone.  Either there's min/maxed that people cry about being too perfect, or you get the Lyran TRO with nothing heavily optimised, but also not pure junk (okay... the Storm Raider does suck, sorry  ;D  It's hobbled by DA stats)  I've used quite a bit from that TRO and have to say I enjoy several of the designs, even with their "weakness."

[Paul]

Is the Lyran Commonwealth deemed to fall due to writers hatred towards it?

And to pile on top of this silly idea: Herb's preferred Inner Sphere faction are the Lyrans. Also note who wrote Handbook House Steiner. Even if every other writer hated the Lyrans, and wanted them dead, it'd be irrelevant, either because the Line Dev's own bias would prevent it, or because the Line Dev ensures the needs of the story take precedence. Given the state of the Lyrans, the only logical conclusion available is that the storyline moves independent from individual faction preferences. Because if bias controlled things, the Steiners and Hell's Horses would be doing a LOT better.

Paul

[Rainbow 6]

Wouldn't the victory at Hesperus II be an indication things are starting to turn around?  Not long before you had Alaric tricking Malvina into attacking Tharkad for him and bounced.  Now you have Trillian tricking Alaric and Malvina to attack each other and kicking them both off Hesperus II.

Got to agree with this, the Lyran's seem to be turning things around, hopefully not to much  ;) but as others have said I think the original 5 great houses will always be around in some shape or form as they are integral to the game universe.

[False Son]

The Schildkröte is also no joke.  In fact, i'm somewhat bitter at the overall quality of the design.  3/5, sure.  But, it's a defense tank.  It's job is to fit into a light vehicle bay and protect your rear echelon.  And what kind of weapon do you want to do that job?  Some sort of LBX AC.  You will want it to face down airborne raiders, shotgun hovercraft flanking you and to finish off the heavier units that have already gone through your front line units.  It is almost perfect.  Almost.  Hardened armor would have been a good choice to reduce random TACs, but the Armored Motive isn't bad.  It ensures you can keep moving along and follow the artillery and support vehicles it is meant to protect.  If you use shielding rules from TacOps, it's even better.  The LPPC is a small criticism, because it does match the range of the LB10X, but doesn't make full use of the 10 free heat sinks.  A regular PPC would have been awesome, but it doesn't fit.

Man, I like that tank.

[dirty harry]

...The state of the Lyran Commonwealth is because TPTB decided it was a desired plot development, both on it's own and to facilitate/build up under other plot developments.

From the sight of a fan this could also mean the utter defeat of the Lyran Commonwealth is a long planned development. 8) It IS single sighted, but for me as a lyran fanboy the FedSuns matters as much as the Taurians do (close to nothing  ;) ).
So from MY point of view it is devastating to look at the development and state of the lyran nation SO FAR. Losing vast parts of its territory, sinking billions of Kroner into a project (Comstar) with no return of investment, reestablishing the unloved social generals when we got rid of them and an Archon that never wanted the job. The campaign for Hesperus II is maybe a success, but it looks like a one-trick-show, thus opening the road to even more losses.
So taking the present for a look into the future, the future will hold not much good for us. It is just the hope, that opening the Fortress Republic will turn the attention of the clans to a new target. It is just hope, that Malvina is crazy enough to attack the horses for their retreat and maybe find a stray gauss bullet to her head. It is just hope, that Comstar is not WoB thereby being infiltrated by the worst foe and attracting additional hate from the surroundings.
So for me as a lyran player it is more or less just hope, that it doesn't get worse than it already is. And looking back is no fun at all. As i am not a core developer it might doesn't matter what i have to say, but looking at all the downs and beatings the lyrans suffered over the years doesn't make me cheer.

For what my opinion is worth, all of the original five Great Houses have plot armor that prevents them from being wiped out.  House Marik may have 'fallen' for example, but they carry on in a form.  The worst that can happen to Steiner/Lyran Commonwealth is on display already.

Now if you take that presumption as being true, then Steiner's future is actually kind of bright.   You can't have an epic comeback without having been behind at halftime, afterall.


On the other hand, if you don't share my presumption (or are obliged to publicly refute it) you can still have hope.   All signs point to the Fortress walls coming down, and that must change the dynamic that put the Commonwealth in dire straights.  For example, if the Republic becomes a combatant, then the Jade Falcons and the Wolf Empire MUST deal with it.   Instantly Steiner's position becomes much improved because both of its most dangerous invaders have new fronts opening up.  Furthermore, the Republic has reason to be pissed at just about everyone.   House Steiner stands alone in the Inner Sphere as not having grabbed up Republic worlds after Grey Monday.  This means the forces coming out of the Republic are going to go anywhere BUT into the Commonwealth.  Not only that, but both are each other's only choice for cooperation or alliance.

Another fun thing to think about is ComStar.  Whether or not you believe plot armor protects the Great Houses, you might believe that ComStar has plot armor instead/in addition.   Sure, the decision to bankroll ComStar while HPGs were down turned out to have awful implications in the short term.. but assuming ComStar does NOT go under, then Steiner will have unprecedented leverage over the organization down the line.

I would not say, that there is something like plot armor, just by looking at the war of reaving. Four clans annihilated and the rest sealed for another invasion. Playing one of those clans would be even more depressing.
So IF there is something like a timejump in the near (real world) future, there is no guaranty, that House Steiner is not the one picking the short stick. Maybe Davion, too, but it seems that the always lucky FedSuns needed a kick in the croach after winning and winning and winning. But please detail me the long time wins of House Steiner since the 4. Succession war. I can't see many.
So it could go two ways: Coming back with force or going down entirely. Call me a pessimist, but looking at the history i don't see why we should start turning around and start to win.

Yes, it may happen - or maybe not. May I remind you that the Free Worlds League actually collapsed? There was no FWL for six decades (in universe) and many years (real world).
I would say that the wisest thing you can do is to wait for the Field Manual: 3145. It should provide us with more details than the relatively brief (and differently focused) Era Report: 3145.

I AM waiting for that one, hoping for some light at the end of the tunnel.

Luckily, you may use some older 'Mechs, unless they have been explicitly labeled as "Extinct".

You don't like the KGC-009 King Crab? Okay. So take the older KGC-001. Its pair of Gauss Rifles is as effective as ever. Or KGC-007 with its paired RAC-5s and Plasma Rifle.

You don't like the ZEU-X4 Zeus? Okay. Try the old ZEU-9S2 Zeus. Yes, this old workhorse lacks the Reactive Armor - but it lacks the XXL Engine too.  ;) Or the ZEU-10WB with twin Heavy PPCs. Or the multipurpose ZEU-9T.

Etc.

Do not forget the the Lyran Alliance can import some good 'Mechs - the Neanderthal from the Regulan Fiefs, for example.

Let me say it differently: it must be really bad if one has to rely on century old machines because the newer designs just plain suck.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah, it would be like 3050 all over again.

Only with a much higher margin for what's considered to suck.  ::)

[Tai Dai Cultist]

...
I would not say, that there is something like plot armor, just by looking at the war of reaving. Four clans annihilated and the rest sealed for another invasion. Playing one of those clans would be even more depressing.
...

Just because some Clans have died off it does not follow that the Great Houses are similarly endangered.

No slight to Clan fans intended, but the Clans aren't 'real factions'.   At least, not in the same way that the Great Houses are. With the possible exceptions of Wolf and Jade Falcon, they're all expendable.  They are not on the same level of integral-ness to the setting as the Great Houses are. 

Removing Steiner from the game would not at all be the same thing as killing off the Fire Mandrills or even the Nova Cats.

EDIT: To use another example without touching on Clan sensitivities:

Because mercenary 'factions' (like the ELH) are killed off, do you think that means Steiner is equally vulnerable?  I'd say it's clearly a "No".

[False Son]

Yes, and with the ilClan on the horizon, this seems similar to House Liao's breathing room gathered by the attention paid to the clans.

[Sabre sworn]

Yet it is fine to disband the FWL and House Marik...

[Molossian Dog IIC]

...
Removing Steiner from the game would not at all be the same thing as killing off the Fire Mandrills or even the Nova Cats.
...

Waitaminnute...there were Nova...Cats...????

...
Let me say it differently: it must be really bad if one has to rely on century old machines because the newer designs just plain suck.

Ever played a 3050 FWLM force?

-------------------------------------------

In fact I consider several units from TRO3145 LC to be outstanding. I plainly envy the Elsies for the Götterdämmerung, for instance. But even more important it diversifies the lyran pocket´o´tricks. What would have another Thunderhawk really contributed?

Also: Schildkröte +1
That tank is a troll.

[Rainbow 6]

Yet it is fine to disband the FWL and House Marik...

For the story it was, didn't like it at the time but we're back now.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Yet it is fine to disband the FWL and House Marik...

As I said, they're carrying on of a sort.  They're a far, far cry from dead/written out of the universe.   In fact, I'd wager quite a few people find the 'nuFWL' more interesting than the original.

They're the example of the 'worst case scenario' the Lyrans can expect.  The message being, as far as worst case scenarios go, that's really not all that bad.

[martian]

I AM waiting for that one, hoping for some light at the end of the tunnel.

You know that the Field Manual:3145 should be released soon - "perhaps" in a week or so. Perhaps you should have waited with your post, until there's more info.

Let me say it differently: it must be really bad if one has to rely on century old machines because the newer designs just plain suck.

As far as I know, the Lyrans may still count on Thunderhawks and Devastators and those designs are from 2770s. I don't think I have ever heard a Lyran player complaining the he must field those "old designs". I am saying it because the BV of those 'Mechs is comparable to the BV of many new Clan 'Mechs.

Or, if you really wanna field the ClanTech, 'Mechs such as the Mad Cat Mk.II or the Mad Cat Mk.IV are still available to the Lyrans.

[Sabre sworn]

As I said, they're carrying on of a sort.  They're a far, far cry from dead/written out of the universe.   In fact, I'd wager quite a few people find the 'nuFWL' more interesting than the original.

I am not counted amongst them, however I do see your point.

[False Son]

Hey, mind the thread title.  We have a thread for bellyaching about House Marik.

[Rainbow 6]

Hey, mind the thread title.  We have a thread for bellyaching about House Marik.

True but we seem to be spamming the other great house's threads in order, or am i imagining that?

[Alexander Knight]

So IF there is something like a timejump in the near (real world) future, there is no guaranty, that House Steiner is not the one picking the short stick. Maybe Davion, too, but it seems that the always lucky FedSuns needed a kick in the croach after winning and winning and winning. But please detail me the long time wins of House Steiner since the 4. Succession war. I can't see many.

Please.  Regale me with the tales of how House Davion retook its 'mech factories on the Draconis border.  Or how the Federated Suns was able to expand its military while Steiner and Kurita were getting ground up by the Clans.  Or how they avoided losing pre-3028 territory to the Marik-Liao offensive and the Chaos March....

[Col.Hengist]

Woah! Who says the social genetals are unloved? Speak for yourself. Not every one is of that opinion.

[False Son]

Meh, it's just a drum beaten too often.

[Sabre sworn]

Meh, it's just a drum beaten too often.

Besides we all know that Lyrans only enjoy percussion... Instruments

[False Son]

It's not that I have an issue with the Social General phenominon for existing.  In my own life I've run into plenty of the type.  From a storytelling perspective, however, it has been done too many times.  Just in our lifetimes the Lyrans were crippled by Alessandro Steiner, inferior performance in Galahad and the war of 3039.  They had Thomas Hogarth in the Jihad, which is about as far as that trope needs to go, then Vedette Brewster messing everything up in the Dark Age.  And that's just the stuff in living memory, not historical stuff.

At least in the Jihad they dug up the Archonettes.  Exploring the other things that make Lyrans Lyran would be nice instead of using the same stock storyline over and over.

[Lyran Falcon]

Woah! Who says the social genetals are unloved? Speak for yourself. Not every one is of that opinion.

I concur. The notion of the social generals is amusingly distinct, even if the outcomes for the Lyran state aren't necessarily ideal. The social general constitutes fluff that gives us the likes of Hauptmann-General Thomas Hogarth, and that sort of makes it all worthwhile. Sort of. Does any other faction have anything so endearing? Not that I know of. (I do however agree with the prior poster's remarks about the trope having been taken to its logical conclusion.)

Besides, if not for their existence, I wouldn't be able to spout the half-baked meme of THOMAS HOGARTH, HERO OF THE ALLIANCE!!! I'll see your heroic grimdark commissar and raise you an Atlas.

[Dies Irae]

Woah! Who says the social genetals are unloved? Speak for yourself. Not every one is of that opinion.

Not singling Col.Hengist out for abuse, but the unnoticed typo just makes this even funnier...  :D

[Sabre sworn]

It is not civil to ridicule ones spelling or grammar.

[Molossian Dog IIC]

Personally I just wonder...aren´t all of them everywhere in the Inner Sphere more or less to be considered "social"?