’Mech of the Week: STG-**/IIC Stinger

[garhkal]

Although I've always liked the Stinger, it is very much outclassed on the modern battlefield, just as nerd says.  That said however, it still has a place in militia units and it is dirt cheap BV and C-Bill wise.

I haven't tried it out yet, but I quite like the idea and the fluff text of the Stinger IIC.

That is true.. and yes though some mid range heavies match it for movement, you can take a swarm of stingers for the BV/cost of one of those moving heavies..

I have the feeling that by the time of the Jihad and post-Jihad, that the primary uses of the Stinger would be in militia regiments and backwaters.  It really doesn't have the speed or integrity to be a line unit, but it has plenty of uses as a budget scout for a strapped militia.

Or merc group.

For me though i have loved its cheapness, the ease they get taken out has always been a draw back to me. 

[Headshot]

Its a lousy Merc Mech.
While its cheap initially, having to replace Mech and pilot after nearly every battle gets kinda expensive in the long term...

[Diablo48]

The Stinger/Wasp duo started the process that eventually drove me away from the idea of "cheap" Mech scouts.
The concept of a Stinger scouting can be basically summed up as: "we'll know where the enemy is when it stops reporting in".
Even back in 3025 the thing wasn't really fast enough to run away, and worthless as a combat unit. An Assassin is faster, and a Pixie will it it for lunch.

So either you go all out, cost be damned (LCT-6M), or you forget the entire idea of Scout Mechs, and optimize them for harrassing.
Use VTOLs or stealthy BA for actual scouting.

Though IMO, a guy on a motorbike is a better scout anyway.
You can hide everywhere, and you can at least try to make up excuses when the bad guys find you!
"Invasion? What invasion, i'm out here camping for the last two weeks! Radio? The point of this trip is getting away from civilisation!
Oh, those military binocs? Birdwatching man! Cost me a fortune, but i can count a Jaybirds feathers from half a mile out!
The rifle? Come on, you've seen a Stuffer Shack out here? I'm hunting my food!
What about that compact com unit, don't you guys know anything? Only a fool goes camping in the hills without a way to call the rangers is something goes south, like a broken leg!"

Try something like that after they've shot you out of your Stinger...   8)

I am very much with you here, although I would tend to go with a Ferret VTOL and/or the recon variant of the Donar instead for better maneuverability, longer lines of sight, and greater reusability.  After all, even if that motorcycle scout does avoid serious trouble (not sure why he has a gun though) he will probably be detained so you loose the recon asset, and if he is playing innocent he will not really be able to do much sneaking away without arousing suspicions.

[Headshot]

Wasn't entirely serious there  ;)

Point is, even if you might lose him as a recon asset, he has a better chance to hide and survive, be it in the wilds or in the city, than a guy in a 20 ton warmachine.
Even the TPTB joke at this, see TRO3085, Wolfhound.

And even if you really lose him, the bike costs a little bit less than the Mech!

[ScannerError]

The 6L seems to avoid most of the problems the other Stingers have as scouts.  The stealth armor (and fairly large amount of it) make it hard to detect and surprisingly hard to kill under fire.  The armament isn't impressive, but moving at locust speeds helps it be a better recon mech.  It is slower in broken terrain (though even at 2 ground mp per hex it can keep pace with a jumping model), but overall I like it as a scout and harasser.  Fun thing to do with it is running behind a mech and shooting it in the rear while bigger mechs occupy the front.  Thanks to the stealth armor, it can't be a secondary target, and because it's behind the enemy it is always the secondary target if it isn't the only target.  So they either have to devote the entire unit's shooting at the bug that's shooting up their rear armor, or they deal with the big threats up front.  Just wish it had ER Mediums instead of the standard Mediums (or even one ER and one standard) to give it a bit of much needed range. 

[Diablo48]

Wasn't entirely serious there  ;)

I know, but that does not make you any less right. ;)

Point is, even if you might lose him as a recon asset, he has a better chance to hide and survive, be it in the wilds or in the city, than a guy in a 20 ton warmachine.
Even the TPTB joke at this, see TRO3085, Wolfhound.

And even if you really lose him, the bike costs a little bit less than the Mech!

Honestly, the biker and all his gear combined probably costs less than just the 'MechWarrior inside the stupid thing after you factor in training and configuring a neurohelmet.

[Wrangler]

As quite note about the Stinger in the Dark Age.  A notable pilot of one was Jonah Levin (future Exarch of the RotS), he used one in 3110 on Kurragin while serving in the Republic Standing Guard.  The thing was stripped down by ex-Mercs who sold them to the Republic for use.  Stripped of Jumpjets, thing only had its ER ML and Rocket Launcher pack left to it.  Facing down the House
Ma-Tzu Kai was interesting battle...

[TigerShark]

...Or an Aerospace fighter. Or Conventional fighter.

[StCptMara]

As quite note about the Stinger in the Dark Age.  A notable pilot of one was Jonah Levin (future Exarch of the RotS), he used one in 3110 on Kurragin while serving in the Republic Standing Guard.  The thing was stripped down by ex-Mercs who sold them to the Republic for use.  Stripped of Jumpjets, thing only had its ER ML and Rocket Launcher pack left to it.  Facing down the House
Ma-Tzu Kai was interesting battle...

Dude: Citation PLEASE! Seeing that in 3110, Warrior house Ma-Tsu Kai is back? I want to know where this was printed so I
see that for myself!

[Wrangler]

Dude: Citation PLEASE! Seeing that in 3110, Warrior house Ma-Tsu Kai is back? I want to know where this was printed so I
see that for myself!

Its in MWDA: Scorpion's Jar, Chapters 30 - 31.   Republic's Expedition was sent into Capellan space find a lost Jumpship, Levin was Captain with the Kyrkbacken Militia.  They were among forces fighting House Ma-Tzu Kai.

[chanman]

Everyone, get your old timey duds out. Here's the text file from the original Wasp MotW by CoyoteWarDog in 2004 as saved by Adjudicator

Pastebin version for those who can't open attachments.

Edit: I appear to have posted the Wasp article in the Stinger thread. I don't have an archived Stinger MotW, but you know, back in the old days, they were alllllmost the same and substitutable, much like butter and margerine.

[Dragon Cat]

The other original light, for some reason always liked the Wasp more...  The Stinger IIC is just lethal though

[StCptMara]

Its in MWDA: Scorpion's Jar, Chapters 30 - 31.   Republic's Expedition was sent into Capellan space find a lost Jumpship, Levin was Captain with the Kyrkbacken Militia.  They were among forces fighting House Ma-Tzu Kai.

Yay! Ma-Tsu Kai is not dead for good after the Jihad!

[Nahuris]

Personally, I have never understood why there wasn't an official variant with a medium and 2 small lasers.......

Anyways, I have been using the 5T quite a bit lately..... but I also tend to mix it in with other 6/9 movers .... to include my Wolftrap, etc.
One nice thing about the figs, is that they are all fairly small and inoffensive looking..... and at 341 for BV2, there's always room for that 5T.
Then again, if you use infernos for the two MML3's... you can go anti-infantry.
I've also loaded it with 2 tons of LRM ammo and held it back as a fire support unit...with tag equipped missiles, it can provide indirect missiles for a bargain.....

That said, I really do not like the XL engine in a light mech..... or anything really under 50 to 55 tons.... and without the weight savings, there's not a lot you can do with 20 ton designs.

You just have to remember that these are NOT designed to work alone. Mix them in with other 6/9 designs.... I pair them with Uziels, run them alongside Kabutos and other lights, or just use them in packs..... a lone Stinger is a dead Stinger.
Personally, I want to see a Stinger with Endo Steel, Ferro-Fibrous armor, and a Light PPC, with 2 small Lasers.....
That would be, at least, useful as a sniper.

Nahuris

[Maingunnery]

Personally, I want to see a Stinger with Endo Steel, Ferro-Fibrous armor, and a Light PPC, with 2 small Lasers.....
That would be, at least, useful as a sniper.

You mean like the 3P ?

[Nahuris]

You mean like the 3P ?

The 3P is great, unless you lose that right arm...

Hence the small lasers.
They also give you a slight punch if you do get a backshot, and cover the minimum of the Light PPC...... which should only happen if your opponent uses something that is fast enough that you can't get away.

Although the question remains.... has anyone refitted a stinger with Reflec armor?
I've noticed that a lot of the counters to the bug mechs are either pulse lasers or ERPPC's and TC's......
Maybe Reflec armor might help?

Nahuris

[Diablo48]

The 3P is great, unless you lose that right arm...

Hence the small lasers.
They also give you a slight punch if you do get a backshot, and cover the minimum of the Light PPC...... which should only happen if your opponent uses something that is fast enough that you can't get away.

Although the question remains.... has anyone refitted a stinger with Reflec armor?
I've noticed that a lot of the counters to the bug mechs are either pulse lasers or ERPPC's and TC's......
Maybe Reflec armor might help?

Nahuris

That opens you up to artillery cannons which will shred 20 tonners with ease.  Also, Stingers are not really fast enough to need targeting bonuses and are usually obliged to close to short/medium range so you can generally smash them with whatever you have.  If they had real speed like the Firemoth then it would be a good idea, but as is it would be throwing good money after bad.

[marauder648]

When me and my friends played the Clan invasion battles or at least clan tech vs the IS who faced them in the invasion any Stingers/Wasps I had always ended out smoking hulks or legless wrecks when trying to carry out their mission, although I did once charge a Thor with a Stinger and kinda ended out smeared over its torso as the MG ammo went up thanks to collision damage.

[DoctorMonkey]

When me and my friends played the Clan invasion battles or at least clan tech vs the IS who faced them in the invasion any Stingers/Wasps I had always ended out smoking hulks or legless wrecks when trying to carry out their mission, although I did once charge a Thor with a Stinger and kinda ended out smeared over its torso as the MG ammo went up thanks to collision damage.

So I can't claim to have tried this but I would have thought that the classic Bug 'Mechs would be best used against the Clans as scouts and recce with orders not to engage and I would only use them on secondary lines of approach where hopefully they will come up against lesser 'Mechs or Elementals if anything and be able to run away. Against a Thor/Summoner I'm impressed it managed to get to touching distance!

[marauder648]

Basically I was using them as scouts, they were so under gunned they didn't stand a chance against any head hunters or scout hunters, heck even elemental points could rip one apart in short order.  In the battle where I charged one into a Thor it was more a case of the Thor being distracted by a Rifleman and Chameleon than being unable to hit the Stinger.  It was busy tearing the Rifleman apart and I tried to do what I could to help, the Chameleon was battered and close to overheating so I just ran the Stinger at it. Didn't expect it to work but I had a big smile on my face when I did hit.

[Kotetsu]

And the Thor (or the Clan Commander) had a new 'Mech commissioned with that pilot's name on it. They may not like physicals, but anyone who blows themselves up smashing you in the chest (or face) gets major points from them...

[Lyran Archer]

I just posted a batrep (found here: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,26692.0.html )  of a 3028 battle in which I used a Wasp 1D and a Stinger 3G and they both did fantastic and even went toe-to-toe with assaults and heavies!

In the SW era, I'd say they are superb scout and fast attack machines!

[Sandslice]

I just posted a batrep (found here: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,26692.0.html )  of a 3028 battle in which I used a Wasp 1D and a Stinger 3G and they both did fantastic and even went toe-to-toe with assaults and heavies!

In the SW era, I'd say they are superb scout and fast attack machines!

Of course, yer Wasp was one-shot during the withdrawal; and your opponent had more pressing matters.  All the same, knowing how to use the little guys will certainly improve their chances. :)

-To the question about the Black Widow Company: Three Stingers (two in the recon lance) and a Wasp.

[Lyran Archer]

Of course, yer Wasp was one-shot during the withdrawal; and your opponent had more pressing matters.  All the same, knowing how to use the little guys will certainly improve their chances. :)

-To the question about the Black Widow Company: Three Stingers (two in the recon lance) and a Wasp.

Still, the Stinger alone held up the advance of the Catapult and enemy Archer for several turns while my Wasp and Archers concentrated on the Goliath and Awesome. Without that delay single-handedly bought by the Stinger, the Catapult and enemy Archer would have had at least an extra turn or two to fire at the DropShip which would have cost me the game.

The Stinger did its job and even knocked the enemy Archer off its feet once with a kick and it survived the battle. Both 20-tonners did so well that I will be using 20-tonners a lot more in the future.

I do understand their limitations. A single hit, especially from something like a Gauss Rifle, will be fatal and Pulse Lasers do take away a lot of their advantage of high to-hit modifiers, but I have played Kit Foxes with my Clan Wolf forces, which have similar speed and almost as bad armor, and have had the Kit Foxes do very well and even survive the battles.

Light 'Mechs have their uses and can be a very cheap way to distract the enemy and buy time for other forces when used correctly. I have used light 'Mechs successfully in enough battles now to believe that they have a legitimate combat role and shouldn't just be regulated to scouting.

[Sandslice]

Still, the Stinger alone held up the advance of the Catapult and enemy Archer for several turns while my Wasp and Archers concentrated on the Goliath and Awesome. Without that delay single-handedly bought by the Stinger, the Catapult and enemy Archer would have had at least an extra turn or two to fire at the DropShip which would have cost me the game.

The Stinger did its job and even knocked the enemy Archer off its feet once with a kick and it survived the battle. Both 20-tonners did so well that I will be using 20-tonners a lot more in the future.

I do understand their limitations. A single hit, especially from something like a Gauss Rifle, will be fatal and Pulse Lasers do take away a lot of their advantage of high to-hit modifiers, but I have played Kit Foxes with my Clan Wolf forces, which have similar speed and almost as bad armor, and have had the Kit Foxes do very well and even survive the battles.

Light 'Mechs have their uses and can be a very cheap way to distract the enemy and buy time for other forces when used correctly. I have used light 'Mechs successfully in enough battles now to believe that they have a legitimate combat role and shouldn't just be regulated to scouting.

And I look forward to seeing that!   O0

[SCC]

To be fair, you can remove Stinger from your post and replace it with 'every 20 ton (Inner Sphere) 'Mech in existance'.

There are some inherent penalties to the lightest units, for example  cockpit weight and Gyro weight taking up such a large percentage of their mass, maximum armor limits and so on.  30-35 tons, to me, is as light as I'd go in fielding a 'line' battlemech. 25 tonners and below, even at lower cost, simply have too many drawbacks and wont survive on the modern battlefield against well equipped units.

Cockpit is 3 tons, gyro is going to be at least 2, that's 5 tons, or 25% of your weight on a Stinger. The cockpit on a vehicle only weighs 2 tons.

And has anyone else called lair on the Notable Pilot write up for the -3P yet? After a field gun rips it's leg off the Stinger some how ones the fight. Given that IS + Armor on that location is 11, that means the gun was either a GR or AC/20. If we take the GR and standard WoB platoon size of 18, that means it would take 4 shoots to disable the gun, while it's still shooting back

[cold1]

The IIC idea intrigued me until I saw the weapons load.  Why HMLs on a 6/9 20 tonner???  Need to be able to move at least 11-12 for that to work.  Clan built ERMLs would be a much better solution at 6/9.  They lose some damage but gain range to not make you a sitting duck if you need to fight.

I like heavy lasers but not here.

[A. Lurker]

The IIC idea intrigued me until I saw the weapons load.  Why HMLs on a 6/9 20 tonner???  Need to be able to move at least 11-12 for that to work.  Clan built ERMLs would be a much better solution at 6/9.  They lose some damage but gain range to not make you a sitting duck if you need to fight.

I like heavy lasers but not here.

It's basically a straightforward STG-3G upgrade with an AP Gauss thrown in to get some of the 3R's anti-infantry capability back as the cherry on top. Essentially the same familiar range, movement, and armor profiles the Raven Alliance's former IS Stinger pilots already know, just uses Clantech to hit twice as hard with each laser (at no loss of accuracy at that because, hey, iHMLs). Given its backstory, I'd say it's a plausible enough design.

[cold1]

I see your point there, makes more sense.  I'm not much for lights to start with but it seemed like a good idea for some reason.  The ability to cause a PSR with a 20 ton mech is nothing to laugh at though.

[Weirdo]

Just wield it like a fairy carrying a shotgun: Flutter about and avoid attention and(more importantly) damage while the fight rages around you, and when the opportunity arises, blow someone's spine out through their chest and flit away before anyone else can respond. }:)