Bonfire of Worlds and Clan Wolf question

[DarthRads]

Finally gotten around to reading Bonfire...

Looking at the map of the Wolf Empire, I have a question:

How does it compare to the old OZ? The number of worlds listed doesn't look huge, but the 'grey' area of the 'sphere level' map looks like it occupies a hefty slab, maybe 1/3 the size of the Commonwealth or more.

[Deadborder]

I wouldn't say a third of the Commonwealth, but it's certainly a not inconsiderable chunk. It's definitely more then they had as the OZ though.

[DarthRads]

It looks huge on the small 'sphere' map...how many worlds do we think? Any major Industrial centres? (c'mon hersperus II, start producing T-Wolves!)

[ABADDON]

Hesperus II is still Lyran after BoF.

[ABADDON]

-1 system of the Buena province
-13 systems of the Bolan province status 3130 (Bolan, Hesperus and Furillo aka the province's most important systems remain Lyran)
-31 systems of the Dixie Theater status 3130 (including Dixie, Gienah and Solaris)
-16 RotS systems (including Stewart, Kalidasa; Wyatt appears to be among them as well)
-4 systems of Tamarind-Abbey (including Zortman)
-26 systems of the Marik-Stewart Commonwealth (excluding Ionus, Marik, Loyalty; including Keystone, Helm)
91 systems, Gienah as capital

[Wolflord]

Finally gotten around to reading Bonfire...

Looking at the map of the Wolf Empire, I have a question:

How does it compare to the old OZ? The number of worlds listed doesn't look huge, but the 'grey' area of the 'sphere level' map looks like it occupies a hefty slab, maybe 1/3 the size of the Commonwealth or more.

About the same number of worlds as the old OZ at its height in about 3052-7 ie about 90. Less long straggly shape more bloblike so interior communications/movements should be easier than from one end of the old OZ to the other.

[rebs]

Well, we know the Wolves didn't like investing in the infrastructure and industrial capacity of their old OZ.

The new digs seem to me to be quite a bit more productive for them, at a glance.

[ABADDON]

Hm, Keystone is the only major industrial center, if I haven't overlooked anything.

[Aleksandr]

Unless the RotS dismantled them, or they were destroyed by combat, Kalidasa has extensive production facilities, and Stewart has a moderate sized Mech plant.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I have to say I'm pretty surprised by the strategic turn of events.  I guess that's a good thing, but I don't understand it.

I assume the impressive campaigns of conquest by Wolf and Falcon can be drawn parallel to the 4th SW.. the rationale is that an amazing leader(s) was first to realize the 'new-normal' of the post-HPG galaxy allowed for such a stroke and capitalized before defensive attitudes adjusted to compensate..  I'm quite curious to know whether every faction is now expected to experience wild swings of fate (ha ha!  I can take 10 worlds from you before you even know I took them.. oh wait what's this? I just lost 15!?!) like this but I'd imagine we won't really know without reading the book.. or at least until 3145 product comes out :D 

I guess what I'm asking is this.. Would the Wolves' (or reciprocally the Falcons') conquests been as extensive without the other clan's concurrent invasion?

[Wolflord]

It's difficult to say given the circumstances.

Falcons : most likely not so successful (even with Malvina the mads Mongol doctrine and the co-opted hell horse forces) without the Lyrans having to deal with the Wolves as well but on the other hand the Lyran defences must have been thinned to move forces around for their assaults on the League.

Wolves : given that the Wolves were invited to migrate across the commonwealth to aid the commonwealths offensive against the league by carving out a new Wolf territory from the league. If the commonwealths leadership hadn't be monumentally stupid (taking wolf civilians hostage) the wolves may not have attacked the lyrans. So the wolves, depending on the Lyran leadership and the existence/timing of a Falcon attack on the commonwealth the wolves could have ended up with (1) more purple worlds & no blue worlds, (2) same purple worlds but fewer blue world, (3) what they had at the end of Bonfire.

[ABADDON]

I have to say I'm pretty surprised by the strategic turn of events.  I guess that's a good thing, but I don't understand it.

I assume the impressive campaigns of conquest by Wolf and Falcon can be drawn parallel to the 4th SW.. the rationale is that an amazing leader(s) was first to realize the 'new-normal' of the post-HPG galaxy allowed for such a stroke and capitalized before defensive attitudes adjusted to compensate.. 

Hm, dunno... Fiction (BoF) doesn't really support that idea but rather leaves the impression that Malvina's and Alaric's combined fiat was just to overwhelming for the Lyrans to repell.

[SteveRestless]

Size is also less important in the face of the fact that their new home is not Space Afghanistan.

[Deadborder]

Size is also less important in the face of the fact that their new home is not Space Afghanistan.

Pretty much. The Wolf OZ worlds were largely taken from the former Tamar Pact, which themselves had been devastated by the Succession Wars. The Wolves failed to invest in the infrastructure and industry of their OZ worlds, letting them become even more run down. The Word and the Horses then did a great job of smashing or taking what little was left.

After that, anything they take is an improvement.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

On the other hand, their new subjects replace virtually all of their former civilian castes.  There as got to be major societal upheavals in the near future of the Wolf empire.  The conquered peoples know the Clanners aren't aliens this time,  but neither have they had any time to be assimilated into the Clan way of life.  Something is going to have to bend.. and a 'softening' of caste structure may actually be it.   If they uncompromisingly impose clan castes on their new worlds without the option of a softer touch from their own civilians to ease the transition, they won't be long from being back to square one.

[Aleksandr]

I thought I heard something along the lines of, when the conquered Leaguers/Lyrans tried to revolt, the Wolves would shoot them and leave their bodies in the streets. Anyone who tried to move the body, tend to it, or give it any kind of final burial or rites would be shot as well, and left to rot with them.

It's been a long time and I'm paraphrasing, but I thought one of the DA books showed that as the Wolves counter-insurgency operation, and apparently it was working.

[Stormlion1]

I see the new Wolf OZ having lots of little insurrections springing up unless they take a light touch with their new subjects and I see the Wolves losing worlds as the Lyrans and the FWL making counterattacks against them. Especially if the Wolves come down on their new civvie castes with a hammer. Even the worlds of the former RoTS will fight back even if they look to have no support in the immediate future.

I have the first eleven parts from Battlecorp on my laptop (is there more?) but I haven't read it as of yet. What happened to the Wolves original OZ? And what is the WiE disposition? I always figured the WiE were just waiting for the Jade Falcons and the Wolves to cross the border. Its essentially been there mandate since they left Clan space.

[Wolflord]

I thought I heard something along the lines of, when the conquered Leaguers/Lyrans tried to revolt, the Wolves would shoot them and leave their bodies in the streets. Anyone who tried to move the body, tend to it, or give it any kind of final burial or rites would be shot as well, and left to rot with them.

It's been a long time and I'm paraphrasing, but I thought one of the DA books showed that as the Wolves counter-insurgency operation, and apparently it was working.

Can't say I recall that will check with my copy of bonfire later on but it sounds much more like Malvina than Alaric.

[Wolflord]

I see the new Wolf OZ having lots of little insurrections springing up unless they take a light touch with their new subjects and I see the Wolves losing worlds as the Lyrans and the FWL making counterattacks against them. Especially if the Wolves come down on their new civvie castes with a hammer. Even the worlds of the former RoTS will fight back even if they look to have no support in the immediate future.

I have the first eleven parts from Battlecorp on my laptop (is there more?) but I haven't read it as of yet. What happened to the Wolves original OZ? And what is the WiE disposition? I always figured the WiE were just waiting for the Jade Falcons and the Wolves to cross the border. Its essentially been there mandate since they left Clan space.

WiE are described as spent - unclear on what exactly this means.
Original Wolf OZ mostly occupied by Falcons & Horses, don't recall if Bears took any or not.

[ABADDON]

4 systems to the LC, 14 to the Bears, rest ti the Turkeys and Horses.

[Stormlion1]

It would seem odd for the WiE to be a spent force. I mean what have they been doing for the last few decades? Unless they have had been out raiding or been heavily raided by the Ghost Bears, Jade Falcons, or the Wolves over the years they should be in a good spot. If they were in a good spot I could actually see them moving there power base and occupy several worlds of the former Wolf OZ and be able to stop squatting on Arc Royal. Heck I am suprised we haven't heard of Lyran Units taking advantage of the Wolves leaving and retaking more of there long lost worlds. Its not like the Lyrans didn't know that the Wolves would be leaving after all and could have easily prepared for it.

[roosterboy]

The CWX forces are spent from opposing Malvina's invasion.

[DarthRads]

According to Alaric, they've been on the Lyran Leash so long, they are little more than pets...

[Ratwedge]

According to Alaric, they've been on the Lyran Leash so long, they are little more than pets...

You mean the guy who literally has an internal monologue where he points out that he was raised to hate them by Katherine?

[Nerroth]

The impression I got from Bonfire is that Alaric has a more hands-off approach in terms of dealing with his conquered populace; certainly nothing approaching the kind of examples which Malvina Hazen makes of worlds which defy her Mongol doctrine.

(There is a degree of irony in the Wolf Empire choosing Gienah as its new capital. That world was relatively unique in that it was a Lyran planet with a keen interest in cross-border trade with several League planets; worlds which it can now deal with more or less openly, as part of the same realm.)

[Ratwedge]

It would seem odd for the WiE to be a spent force. I mean what have they been doing for the last few decades? Unless they have had been out raiding or been heavily raided by the Ghost Bears, Jade Falcons, or the Wolves over the years they should be in a good spot.

Its not really odd when you put together the info from the book and other nuggets of information:

"The stravag Malvina Hazen shreds the Lyran Commonwealth with her talons," said Galaxy Commander Elise Ward, her voice rising in anger. "She flies toward Tharkad and only the valiant stand of the Exiles keeps her from swallowing the coreward half of the Commonwealth whole."

This quote tells what other parts of the book reinforce that the Exiles surged out of the Arc-Royal to fight and managed to make a show and dance of it. It also helps to note that when Malvina finally gets to the Tharkard she is in no position to take it, which was the entire point of the invasion to cut the head off the Lyrans for good.

We also know thanks to Oysteins maps of the initial falcon invasion that the Exiles were the primary defenders of the entire Arc-Royal Theater while LCAF guarded above and below in Melissa and other areas. This means they now have increased responsibilities to defend the area from the aggressive Falcons while they were also increasing the size of the Theater through acquisitions from the the Crusader Wolves. Even if they increased their Touman size, they now have increased responsibilities which require their Touman to be in more places now ontop of trying to stop an invasion. 

[Wolflord]

It would seem odd for the WiE to be a spent force. I mean what have they been doing for the last few decades? Unless they have had been out raiding or been heavily raided by the Ghost Bears, Jade Falcons, or the Wolves over the years they should be in a good spot. If they were in a good spot I could actually see them moving there power base and occupy several worlds of the former Wolf OZ and be able to stop squatting on Arc Royal. Heck I am suprised we haven't heard of Lyran Units taking advantage of the Wolves leaving and retaking more of there long lost worlds. Its not like the Lyrans didn't know that the Wolves would be leaving after all and could have easily prepared for it.

Lyran troops were not available to take old wolf OZ planets because they had been shifted to the xFWL front in order to turn purple planets blue. This is partly why the falcons had such an easy time of it on the Lyran front.

[Wolflord]

Its not really odd when you put together the info from the book and other nuggets of information:
 

This quote tells what other parts of the book reinforce that the Exiles surged out of the Arc-Royal to fight and managed to make a show and dance of it. It also helps to note that when Malvina finally gets to the Tharkard she is in no position to take it, which was the entire point of the invasion to cut the head off the Lyrans for good.

We also know thanks to Oysteins maps of the initial falcon invasion that the Exiles were the primary defenders of the entire Arc-Royal Theater while LCAF guarded above and below in Melissa and other areas. This means they now have increased responsibilities to defend the area from the aggressive Falcons while they were also increasing the size of the Theater through acquisitions from the the Crusader Wolves. Even if they increased their Touman size, they now have increased responsibilities which require their Touman to be in more places now ontop of trying to stop an invasion.

Which worlds did WiE take from CW? When the CW  moved out the falcons/horses/bears moved in for the most part. If the WiE occupied systems abandoned when the CW moved out they should have known better than to over stretch themselves and leave that to the LCAF. As far as I can recall from the maps and from Bonfire the WiE were to busy dieing heroically trying to stem the Falcon tide while wondering where in heck the rest of the LCAF was to be concerned with snagging a few extra planets to guard.

[Øystein]

The former Clan Wolf OZ was divided up before any Clan conflict with the Lyran Commonwealth.

[ABADDON]

Even more surprising/hardly believable the Lyrans took only 4 systems.
They didn't even bother taking Arcturus back.