so, using the MML....

[iamfanboy]

So, here I am, looking at post-Civil War weapon systems, and I'm thinking about the MML.

It seems like a not-great deal on the MML-9 or -7; the best weight for value seems to be the MML-5, at just barely bigger than a LRM-5 and the same weight as a SRM-6, with the basic function of both.

Still, it seems like... not as good as either, unless you're seriously scrimped for space. Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but what designs use the MML well?

[HavocTheWarDog]

The atlas, quickdraw, centurion,...to name a few...just about anything that carries lrms, imo.

[Crunch]

The MML is never as efficient as an LRM or an SRM in the role that those weapons fill.

But if you compare, say an MML 9(8 tons and 7 Crits with two tons of ammo or 9 tons and 8 crits with 3), to an SRM 6 and an LRM 10 (10 tons and 6 crits with a ton of ammo for each) you get a heck of a bargain. That said I like the MML as a replacement for "shoot in" weaponry (Like the Thunderbolts LRM 15) or on mixed missile boats (like the Crusader).

Two designs I'd look at are the Thunderbolt 11SE and the Crusader 7W. Neither is a favorite for everyone but I've found them both to be great both in a general case and, in the case of the Crusader, to have great bang for your buck.

[NightmareSteel]

Also a multi-role alternative to the SRM/LRM carriers and LRM variant Partisan- something with good bombardment ability with a shocking close-in punch, and the ammo to support.

[Diamondshark]

They are good in refits for any unit with both SRMs and LRMs.  In custom designs, I use them often in Cavalry designs, or anything else that I expect to be in varying ranges with the enemy.  Also, they have great access to special ammunition.  My favorite is to use Follow-the-leader LRMs to punch holes in them, and then Tandem-Charge SRMs to chew them up.  They're the one example where a spheroid weapon mostly out-performs a Clan counterpart (ATMs, except for at extreme range and point-blank range). 

[Caturix]

My favorite is to use Follow-the-leader LRMs to punch holes in them, and then Tandem-Charge SRMs to chew them up.

I totally agree with that !! That's how I use it myself, when I'm allowed to use special ammo ;) !!

The Dervish 9 D (4 erMLs, 4 MMLs 5, 5/8/5) is great as a MML platform.

[JPArbiter]

the commando with the MML 7 is an amazing platform

I also like the new "Centurion Hawk) with MML7 jump jets and a plasma rifle

[evilauthor]

What annoys me is that if you can build a MML-7 and an MML-9, you should also be able to build SRM-8s and maybe even SRM-10s. Where are they?

But yes, MMLs are replacements for units that use both SRMs and LRMs because you really can't use both at the same time anyway because of the LRM's minimum ranges. Consider

MML-5, 3 tons, 3 crits
LRM-5, 2 tons, 2 crits
SRM-4, 2 tons, 1 crit
SRM-6, 3 tons, 2 crits

No matter which LRM/SRM combo you use, the MML winds up saving you tonnage. My only gripe is that the tube count only goes up to 9 and no higher, so they're not really good as a whole sale replacement for one weapon type or the other.

[Dread Moores]

Heavy MML carriers and the MML Moltke...nasty. Use them in large groups.

Mech wise, the best uses I've seen of MMLs are always when it replaces a LRM/SRM rack combo (Crusader, Thunderbolt, etc). You give up a few missiles, ideally get two MML racks, three tons of ammo, and all kinds of flexibility.

Though the one Crusader variant is an offender of a big pet peeve of mine, with two different sized sets of MML racks on the same design.

[evilauthor]

Heavy MML carriers and the MML Moltke...nasty. Use them in large groups.

Mech wise, the best uses I've seen of MMLs are always when it replaces a LRM/SRM rack combo (Crusader, Thunderbolt, etc). You give up a few missiles, ideally get two MML racks, three tons of ammo, and all kinds of flexibility.

Though the one Crusader variant is an offender of a big pet peeve of mine, with two different sized sets of MML racks on the same design.

Quote honestly, ANY mech that uses two different missile rack sizes for the SAME TYPE of missile bugs me like this. For some odd reason, the game does not permit them to use the same ammo bins despite them both supposedly using the same type of ammo. That means when you mount launchers with different tube counts you're forced to double up on ammo even when you don't really need to.

[Wanderer]

If a Mech used LRMs and SRMs together, odds are you can put MML launchers on it and actually get superior performance, especially in the SRM end of things.

Say, swapping an Ostwar-3M's LRM 20 + SRM 4's for a trio of MML-7's.  The extra 13 SRM's tend to make a large impression on people. It even works on the smaller stuff like the Assassin. Combine it's launchers into an MML-5 and enjoy the extra SRM's being delivered.

I appreciate the MML, it's flexible and in many cases directly improves the performance on a lot of designs that were originally built to deliver a mixed missile payload.

[evilauthor]

I appreciate the MML, it's flexible and in many cases directly improves the performance on a lot of designs that were originally built to deliver a mixed missile payload.

Now... the only way to make them more perfect is get them the ability to use ELRMs, NLRMs, Clan LRMs, Streak systems...

[Lorcan Nagle]

If a Mech used LRMs and SRMs together, odds are you can put MML launchers on it and actually get superior performance, especially in the SRM end of things.

Say, swapping an Ostwar-3M's LRM 20 + SRM 4's for a trio of MML-7's.  The extra 13 SRM's tend to make a large impression on people. It even works on the smaller stuff like the Assassin. Combine it's launchers into an MML-5 and enjoy the extra SRM's being delivered.

I appreciate the MML, it's flexible and in many cases directly improves the performance on a lot of designs that were originally built to deliver a mixed missile payload.

I love carrying Infernos in a unit with multiple MMLs - mixing them in with regular SRMs can give you a good advantage on the next turn as the enemy's slowed down and damaged...

[Ruger]

Though the one Crusader variant is an offender of a big pet peeve of mine, with two different sized sets of MML racks on the same design.

I believe the reasoning behind this was two fold:

1) To better emulate the original design's differing number of missiles per types of launcher per location.

2) To enable it to bring the most amount of missiles to bear on a target should it have to use just a single arm's launchers (for instance, with a torso twist). With a MML-7 and an ER Med, it could not force pilot checks. With a MML-9 and an ER Med, it at least has a chance at doing so, if the player is lucky enough to land 8 SRM's and the ER Med (and the Artemis system on all launchers makes this a better possibility)...

One of the biggest complaints I've always heard of the design was the number of tons of ammo provided to the launchers...of course, if one starts using specialty ammo, those extra tons come in handy...

 ;)

Ruger

[Dread Moores]

The other place I've found MMLs really great is on light Mechs previously mounting just LRMs or SRMs. All of a sudden, they gain heaps of flexibility, better able to take advantage of their speed at all ranges (rather than just medium/long). If you also choose to introduce them earlier in your home campaigns, they allow for some fantastic upgrades of Intro tech units without resorting to XLs/endo/double heat sinks. Ravens, Valkyries, Javelins, all great candidates.

[Demos]

If a Mech used LRMs and SRMs together, odds are you can put MML launchers on it and actually get superior performance, especially in the SRM end of things.

Say, swapping an Ostwar-3M's LRM 20 + SRM 4's for a trio of MML-7's.  The extra 13 SRM's tend to make a large impression on people. It even works on the smaller stuff like the Assassin. Combine it's launchers into an MML-5 and enjoy the extra SRM's being delivered.

I appreciate the MML, it's flexible and in many cases directly improves the performance on a lot of designs that were originally built to deliver a mixed missile payload.

but there is always the possibility to engage with both LRM and SRM, and this change is 0,5t heavier (negliable, I admit) and more costly in terms of heat.

MMLs are great, but they could also be very fast inefficient. E.g. fire support mechs should retain their LRM, a MML is jsut wasteful.

[Stormcrow]

The one thing you must remember, and TPTB sometimes forget, is when you put an MML on a 'Mech don't forget to leave room for two tons of ammo per launcher. You forget this, you've taken the 'Multi' out of the MML.

[Kit deSummersville]

The one thing you must remember, and TPTB sometimes forget, is when you put an MML on a 'Mech don't forget to leave room for two tons of ammo per launcher. You forget this, you've taken the 'Multi' out of the MML.

Not totally, it becomes something of a mini-Omni. You can tailor it for the fight, SRMs for a city fight, LRMs for wide-open plains, etc. It is a lot better with ammo choices, but still usable without.

[Beukeboom Fan]

but there is always the possibility to engage with both LRM and SRM, and this change is 0,5t heavier (negliable, I admit) and more costly in terms of heat.

MMLs are great, but they could also be very fast inefficient. E.g. fire support mechs should retain their LRM, a MML is jsut wasteful.

I never think the MML's are wasteful.     You do lose some maximum throw weight - but the flexibility more than makes up for it in most cases.  Thinking about it with a Whitworth type mech.  You could go from 2x LRM-10's (2ammo) & 3ML's to 2x MML-7's (3 ammo) & 3 ML's.  The ability to potentially crit seek with 14 SRM's is a HUGE benefit, and more than offsets the loss from 10 potential hits to 7 with the LRM's. 

I will say it's much less effecient to try and add artemis to the smaller launchers - but it's been my experience that with the proliferation of ECM - that's usually wasted tonnage regardless.

[Nibs]

We've seen a Blakist variant Viking use MMLs well.

[Dread Moores]

MMLs are great, but they could also be very fast inefficient. E.g. fire support mechs should retain their LRM, a MML is jsut wasteful.

I really thought the same thing myself...until I recently saw the MML Longbows and Heavy MML carriers in action. If you're going to make the switch to MMLs on a former LRM boat, it's all about quantity.

[Beukeboom Fan]

I really thought the same thing myself...until I recently saw the MML Longbows and Heavy MML carriers in action. If you're going to make the switch to MMLs on a former LRM boat, it's all about quantity.

If I remember right - the MML Longbow has 6 x MML-9's.   What other IS mech can potentially drop 100+ points of damage on an opponent?  And even it that is HIGHLY unlikely, the average damage and crit-seeking ability inside range 6 is truly scary.  You have gone from a mech that if you could get well inside the minimum range is likely an easy kill, to practically committing suicide.

[Shijima_3085]

You could replace one unit per fire-support lance with an MML variant without losing much long-range firepower, gain significant integral force protection (e.g. that Longbow variant) and without needing much more logistics support.  Alternatively you could do the same with a short-range brawler lance and gain some additional stand-off and indirect support abilities.

[evilauthor]

A popular upgrade style appears to be to swap out a single large LRM launcher with a smaller LRM-launcher and an MML to make up the difference in throw weight. This is to give a former LRM boat some short range firepower without giving up too much (if any) long range firepower. I'm rather ambivalent about the idea myself because I dislike having LRM-bins that aren't compatible with every weapon that throws LRMs.

What do you guys think about it?

[Prince of Darkness]

I really thought the same thing myself...until I recently saw the MML Longbows and Heavy MML carriers in action. If you're going to make the switch to MMLs on a former LRM boat, it's all about quantity.

But even then, it completely changes the role of the machine, almost to the point of a heavily equipped MML carrier having little armor but trying to close in to use it's more damaging missiles.

In my opinion, the fans don't use MML's correctly.  While they can be ton-for-ton more efficient than the SRM's, MML's can't replace LRMs at all, and it's a terrible idea to try.  Even worse is their size- you don't truely realize how big they are until you are working with a critpacked 'mech, or until you are using huge amounts.

Using MML's is like using an LRM-based Mech- heavy support.  They should rarely be the main source of firepower, serving to supplement LRM's at range with standard or special munitions, switching to SRM's when something gets in close.  As a personal rule, I try to match the long range damage with the short range damage when I'm putting missile tubes of two kinds on a machine- Twin MML 7 and one LRM 15 is a great setup, especially for a new Crusader.

[Sartris]

In my opinion, the fans don't use MML's correctly.  While they can be ton-for-ton more efficient than the SRM's, MML's can't replace LRMs at all, and it's a terrible idea to try.  Even worse is their size- you don't truely realize how big they are until you are working with a critpacked 'mech, or until you are using huge amounts.

This is my experience as well.  I will run a custom CPLT with x4 MML-7 from time to time that is a maniac demon armor scrubber and crit seeker at close range, but its long range punch leaves much to be desired. 

[Ruger]

This is my experience as well.  I will run a custom CPLT with x4 MML-7 from time to time that is a maniac demon armor scrubber and crit seeker at close range, but its long range punch leaves much to be desired.

Just curious, but why? If all 4 launchers fire LRM's, that's only 2 less missiles than most standard Catapults...just the vagaries of the missile hit tables, or something else?

Ruger

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The problem I've observed is that MMLs seem to be substantially less heat efficient per missile than LRMs are.  The MML9 packing Longbow, for example, can only use 4 of its launchers without heat.  That's 36 potential damage, a rather weak output for that amount of heat.  You could fire 4 LRM 15s for the same heat scale, and with the substantial number of crits that MMLs take up, it's hard to pack in the heatsinks to compensate.

[Prince of Darkness]

Just curious, but why? If all 4 launchers fire LRM's, that's only 2 less missiles than most standard Catapults...just the vagaries of the missile hit tables, or something else?

That's probably just it, though I don't like the idea of using heavier launchers like that (I prefer banks of smaller launchers- LRM's can't punch holes well).  While damage is still damage, 7 isn't very much on a crit table.

The problem I've observed is that MMLs seem to be substantially less heat efficient per missile than LRMs are.  The MML9 packing Longbow, for example, can only use 4 of its launchers without heat.  That's 36 potential damage, a rather weak output for that amount of heat.  You could fire 4 LRM 15s for the same heat scale, and with the substantial number of crits that MMLs take up, it's hard to pack in the heatsinks to compensate.

And there's another problem I forgot to address.  MML's can just be too hot to stand sometimes, especially when most of the launchers are bigger than an Inner Sphere Double heat sink.

[Ruger]

The problem I've observed is that MMLs seem to be substantially less heat efficient per missile than LRMs are.  The MML9 packing Longbow, for example, can only use 4 of its launchers without heat.  That's 36 potential damage, a rather weak output for that amount of heat.  You could fire 4 LRM 15s for the same heat scale, and with the substantial number of crits that MMLs take up, it's hard to pack in the heatsinks to compensate.

That is one of the reasons I would probably prefer the 13C Longbow to the 14C...but I would take the Crusader-7W over both...

 :)

Ruger