TRO 3145--Federated Suns

[Klat]

Vocal minority?

It really doesn't feel like a minority but I'll give the not so vocal FS fans the benefit of the doubt.  ;)

[A. Lurker]

coughcoughcoughstealtharmorcoughcoughcough

I'd actually say that's backwards. Because BattleTech has always had this conceit that the longer-ranged a weapon is the more accurate it must be at range, too (to the point that when that's not true for a system for once, it's immediately counted as a strike against it -- MRMs come to mind), shooting further and thereby reaping the longer short and medium range bands is the primary countermeasure to stealth armor, not the other way around. :)

[DarkISI]

I especially feel let down by the 2/3 speed black knight.

There is no 2/3 Black Knight! There is a 4/6 Black Knight that got reduced to 3/5 because of the Shield it is carrying.

[blackjack]

Not sure on the quad mech I like the looks just not sure on the load out. Geeked a little on the Omni Centurion!!! But hoped for a clan weapons load out on one of them.

[Diplominator]

There is no 2/3 Black Knight! There is a 4/6 Black Knight that got reduced to 3/5 because of the Shield it is carrying.

It's not an unreasonable misconception, though, since the record sheet says it has a 225 LFE. It says a 14.5 ton 225 LFE, which is the correct mass for a 300 LFE, but if you don't check the mass to catch the error it looks like it's a 3/5 pre-shield.

[Liam's Ghost]

It's not an unreasonable misconception, though, since the record sheet says it has a 225 LFE. It says a 14.5 ton 225 LFE, which is the correct mass for a 300 LFE, but if you don't check the mass to catch the error it looks like it's a 3/5 pre-shield.

This is why we have errata threads, is it not?

[StCptMara]

A little downturn?  Out of curiosity, was the 4th Succession War a minor inconvenience to House Liao?  Has it occurred to you that the Davion motto since 3030 can generally be summed up as "no matter what it is now, it can always get worse".

Davion ROFLStomped the CapCon in the 4th Succession War, beat up the Combine in the war of 3039. It, itself, was
never directly endangered in the Clan Invasion(since the invasion was hitting Steiner and Kurita, not Davion itself),
and gained a several decades of detente with the Combine as a result of the Invasion. The FedCom Civil war was
caused by the Davion's pride. They could have just let Katherine have the Lyran half peacefully, and let Victor take the
Federated Suns half peacefully, and there would have been no issues. But, no..they had to make it a Civil War. During
the Jihad, it had the least worlds targeted by Blakists, and, in fact, kicked off its Capitol occupying forces in less then a
year, compared to most of the bloody Jihad of Marik, Kurita, and Steiner. While the Blakists attacked Davion worlds, for
the most part, they used less WMD's then on the other Houses. The only thing that really hurt Davion during the Jihad
was how spread out their industry was..but that also helped them, as, unlike other Houses, occupying only a couple
worlds did not cut off their industrial might(See: Luthien and Hesperus II). Sure, Liao took some worlds from the Davions
during this time. But, come the Victoria War, Davion took those worlds and some extras from the Liaos. The Davions
also reaped beneficial trading agreements with the Republic.

I am sorry, but....where do you see any major setbacks in any of this? Davion looks like it always ended up in a position
stronger then its enemies when all is said and done. I mean, even in the Clan Invasion, they used the Steiner half of the Federated Commonwealth's troops more then the Davion half's troops.

[Diplominator]

This is why we have errata threads, is it not?

Not for TRO:3145:FS so far, as far as I can tell.

[Coldwyn]

I am not singling anyone out here, but I find it very interesting how much confirmation bias I'm seeing in this thread. I also find it outright amusing how much of that bias is mutually exclusive.

It´s pretty much notable that the supposed "FedSun haters" are more enjoying that TRO as the supposed fans.

Maybe the RotS was right and a forced fan-relocation should be in order: Swap those fans that stayed with the CC in their dark times with the actual FS fans :P

It really doesn't feel like a minority but I'll give the not so vocal FS fans the benefit of the doubt.  ;)

The silent majority is actually playing the game instead of complaining on the internet.

This is why we have errata threads, is it not?

Or the ability to post in "Ask the Developers". But it´s always easier to complain first.

I am sorry, but....where do you see any major setbacks in any of this? Davion looks like it always ended up in a position
stronger then its enemies when all is said and done. I mean, even in the Clan Invasion, they used the Steiner half of the Federated Commonwealth's troops more then the Davion half's troops.

It´s only a major setback when your concept of fun is defined by winning or always having the best toys, or winning by using the best toys. This makes me wonder at times, whether some fans actually notice that the things they want will bring the game to and end, at least story-wise? I would take bets that there´s next to none CC or DC fan out there that wants the FS destroyed, compared to (seemingly) too many FS-fans that want total victory.

[RogueK]

Vocal minority?

Given that all faction polls on this site tend to have the Fedsuns at the top two at very least (I seem to remember Lyrans winning the last one I saw, but otherwise FedSun tends to win handily). Then yes, it'll be by neccessity a vocal minority, since y'know there aren't THAT many people bitching.

A vocal minority of these boards also enjoy sniping at Fedsuns, and I admit that when I initially started reading these forums the impression I got was that was that the Fedsuns in general and Victor and associates in general were among the most hated bits of BT.

Which actually had a real impact in pushing me into the Fedsuns (I am a very recent fan. Came into the setting during mid jihad. Had a bit of trouble finding a faction I actually liked.), in fan factor they very much felt like the underdog. And that honestly matters more than the material advantage in universe as far as underdog factor goes. I've since confirmed that this view was wrong but by then I'd started appreciating the faction for other reasons.

And frankly while fans are bitching they do seem to get an unreasonable ammount of flak here. I've been here long enough to see that fans of virtually any faction bitches when things take a serious downturn, yet they didn't seem to get the ammount of flak for it the Fedsun fans that bitch do now.

Okay not quite true. The Taurian fans got hit even harder over it. There was a reason after all that their faction thread was locked for months.

Only major exception to taking a downturn badly I can think of offhand would be the Blood spirit fans. They broke the mold after the reaving by being remarkably sporting about it.

TL:DR: If it wasn't a vocal minority you'd know :P And I also think the people bitching about the bitching are more grating than the bitching in the first place. :P



Also: To reply written when doing this: Huh didn't notice that. I saw the 225 engine and assumed it was honest. Didn't think to check mass. I retract my previous statement of no exiting units. It's time to go monthy python on the Cappies and Dracs

[Mecha-Anchovy]

Oh paint us with the widest possible brush will you ::) :P.

Aye. To be frank, I've read more whining about Davion fans being whiny, entitled brats than I have read actual Davion whining. As far as I can tell the general Davion attitude to 3145 is "Stiff upper lip, old boy, we've been in worse spots."

(British accent required.)

I mean, we're getting a lot of page time against our oldest and greatest enemies. We're taking a beating, but remember, evil always wins in the middle. We can beat the Kuritas and the Liaos. We beat ComStar. We beat the Clans. We beat the Word of Blake. And now we're going to lose to the same pack of petty tyrants we've been beating for centuries?

I don't think so.

[BirdofPrey]

Yeah, I admit that removing the big shoulder-flanges from the Templar just feels wrong- it loses a lot of the character the Mech had previously. But, that's how the Wizkids sculpt was (and tiny, to boot!)... alas.  :-\

Speaking of shoulders, anybody notice the recordsheet for the Atlas III has Eva fins?

[DarkISI]

Speaking of shoulders, anybody notice the recordsheet for the Atlas III has Eva fins?

The Atlas III has two Shields, so... yes ;)

[StCptMara]

Only major exception to taking a downturn badly I can think of offhand would be the Blood spirit fans. They broke the mold after the reaving by being remarkably sporting about it.

Well, that is kind of easy to explain: As much as we hoped we would make it out the other side of the wars of Reaving,
we pretty much knew there were only two possible outcomes for us: We killed the Adders, or the Adder's killed us.
We were also pretty sure we weren't going to kill the Adders. We saw the writing on the wall before the book, but
all we asked for is what we got: We got to go down fighting. We knew, deep down in hearts, that our days were numbered,
even if we tried to deny it publicly with all sorts of survival scenarios. I enjoyed reading of our death, because we did not
go quietly into that good night. Heck, I even like that, ultimately, we were obliterated with Orbital Bombardment because,
frankly, the Adders just knew better then to try and fight us on the ground.

I expect that, if the Federated Suns goes down, it will not be quietly. In fact, we already know they are not going
quietly. Just read the entries about the guerilla wars they wage on Palmyra and other worlds the Combine has
taken. When wars and hatreds have been as long as the ones between the Successor States, eventually, someone
has to die. Will it be Davion? Or will Davion rise to the challenge, and repel the Combine and the Confederation?
Or will the Suns fall, but something new take its place? I don't know. Neither do any of the gather of gloom, doom, and
despair that is so vocal. I want to see what happens, though. And, I trust CGL will, if the Sun does finally set on House
Davion, make sure that they are standing to watch that final sunset.

Hey, HikageMaru..maybe you should do a Federated Suns banner that says "Bury me standing...."
*hmms* Heck..that would be a good Blood Spirit banner, as well.

[SCC]

Bleh. Once again blaming Caleb. The problems with the AFFS goes far deeper than what one guy can do in 10 years. This is a systemic failure that seems to cover most aspects of AFFS structure.

Also... the AFFS position is NOT the same as the LCAF. The LCAF is getting clobbered because of massive defeats that decimated its army. They simply lost too much to be effective in a direct battle.

At a guess, I would say the AFFS simply isn't used to fight at equal or lesser odds and can't adjust to it. They don't have a 3-1 advantage anymore over their enemies.

Caleb being a tanker probably made an existing problem worse, a de-focusing on 'Mechs, the AFFS probably didn't put as many resources into 'Mechs compared to other factions favoring armor, which, given that Stone's Kool Aid was being passed, isn't a bad thing, if you can build a vehicle that pretty much the same job as a 'Mech, build the vehicle and not the 'Mech so as to save your 'Mech allocations for something vehicles can't do, or at least can't do really well.

Which leads me to something else, the Prey Seeker, yes the idea of a pursuit unit is a good one, but why not a VTOL? Some of you won't like the idea but VTOLs can use VTOL Jet Boosters, which grant the same advantages as MASC or a Supercharger but with virtually no downside (A +3 to PSR's to avoid side-slipping is no where near as bad as what can happen when you activate MASC or a Supercharger), what 'Mech can jump equal to TWICE it's walk every turn at all?

And now for an evil thought, Caleb was a tanker, chances are some of these new 'Mechs haven't seen widespread deployment as a result (He was nuts remember? He may be trying to make tanks look good) so while at this point the AFFS might have a good idea of what the CC's and DC's new 'Mechs can do, they won't have that sort of info on what the FS's new 'Mechs can do

[RyuWanderfalke]

Then again, he was supposedly a Lyran supporter (his Bertram Habeas alter ego), and look what he's done to THEM.

Seriously, I wonder how anybody ever could have gotten the idea that ANY BT line developer EVER was possibly a Lyran supporter? :D
The mere thought is just hilarious.

[Coldwyn]

Caleb being a tanker probably made an existing problem worse, a de-focusing on 'Mechs, the AFFS probably didn't put as many resources into 'Mechs compared to other factions favoring armor, which, given that Stone's Kool Aid was being passed, isn't a bad thing, if you can build a vehicle that pretty much the same job as a 'Mech, build the vehicle and not the 'Mech so as to save your 'Mech allocations for something vehicles can't do, or at least can't do really well.

Caleb my not have been the source of that. He was in charge from 35 to 44, so nearly 9 years. Considering that the BTU moves in slomo, that´s the blink of an eye and maybe not enough time t6o get any serious changes started.

Which leads me to something else, the Prey Seeker, yes the idea of a pursuit unit is a good one, but why not a VTOL? Some of you won't like the idea but VTOLs can use VTOL Jet Boosters, which grant the same advantages as MASC or a Supercharger but with virtually no downside (A +3 to PSR's to avoid side-slipping is no where near as bad as what can happen when you activate MASC or a Supercharger), what 'Mech can jump equal to TWICE it's walk every turn at all?

In the end it comes down to VTOLs being a bit more fragile. As has been pointed out some pages prior, the Prey Seeker can keep up impressive speed even with leg/hip damage, whilst a VTOL goes down with equivalent rotor damage.

And now for an evil thought, Caleb was a tanker, chances are some of these new 'Mechs haven't seen widespread deployment as a result (He was nuts remember? He may be trying to make tanks look good) so while at this point the AFFS might have a good idea of what the CC's and DC's new 'Mechs can do, they won't have that sort of info on what the FS's new 'Mechs can do

Again, Harrison drank the Cool Aid like crazy, so he´s the one behind the whole AFFS dirarmament. Caleb may have been a nut case, but not stupid at that. He may, in spirit with keeping the disarmamaent pact up, chose to not upgrade mech forces, but could have gone for neat tank designs, simply because he knew that kind of arms.

[StCptMara]

And now for an evil thought, Caleb was a tanker, chances are some of these new 'Mechs haven't seen widespread deployment as a result (He was nuts remember? He may be trying to make tanks look good) so while at this point the AFFS might have a good idea of what the CC's and DC's new 'Mechs can do, they won't have that sort of info on what the FS's new 'Mechs can do

You know...that would make the issue of the Prey Seeker LT who got sent to the Davion Light Guards make sense. It would
explain why the DLG were asking him about how to use the 'mech.  I wonder if there are any other things that thought might
make make more sense?

[Coldwyn]

You know...that would make the issue of the Prey Seeker LT who got sent to the Davion Light Guards make sense. It would
explain why the DLG were asking him about how to use the 'mech.  I wonder if there are any other things that thought might
make make more sense?

Most of the stuff makes sense when you keep an defensive army in peace time in mind. The shift from RCT to LCT as defensive forces and the half century of peace that passed would show in the way the academies train their cadets, in the way commanders think about war. Being BFF with the Republic will have done the rest.

[RyuWanderfalke]

Also... the AFFS position is NOT the same as the LCAF. The LCAF is getting clobbered because of massive defeats that decimated its army. They simply lost too much to be effective in a direct battle.

What? No???
Of course it was the poorest possible leadership.
There is no one else but fiat "enhanced" in terms of incompetence Melissa II to blame that three Clans turned against the LC at the same time, while she managed to bankrupt the realm, basically investing in ComStar without a real prospect of profit and managing the actual embodiement of incompetence, Vedet Brewster, as poorly as it gets.
A lot of her actions didn't make too much sense. But whatever.
If any it really felt like "Oh, yeah, the LCAF just went from 100% and winning to meekly 10% and losing on all fronts and actually we don't really wanna spent to much time detailing how that actually seems credible". There were in fact no huge losses detailed that you claimed existed, not in the sourcebooks and especially not in the novels (Bonfire of Worlds) that would have justified the immense failure that was the LCAF at that time.
But again, whatevs. We'll see how it turns out eventually.
If all goes to hell, I just welcome the Adder overlords, I've been a fan of for quite a while :)

[StCptMara]

What? No???
Of course it was the poorest possible leadership.
There is no one else but fiat "enhanced" in terms of incompetence Melissa II to blame that three Clans turned against the LC at the same time, while she managed to bankrupt the realm, basically investing in ComStar without a real prospect of profit and managing the actual embodiement of incompetence, Vedet Brewster, as poorly as it gets.
A lot of her actions didn't make too much sense. But whatever.
We'll see how it turns out eventually.
If all goes to hell, I just welcome the Adder overlords :)

Yeah, Melissa II could have just, you know, dealt honestly with the Wolves.
Though, you do realize that, when the Adders come...they will be coming to burn the Inner Sphere and rule
the cinders. Because, you know, the IS is Tainted, and will have to be Cleansed.

[RyuWanderfalke]

I'll have to find satisfaction in the fact that others burn first/more badly. ;)

[Liam's Ghost]

Though, you do realize that, when the Adders come...they will be coming to burn the Inner Sphere and rule
the cinders. Because, you know, the IS is Tainted, and will have to be Cleansed.

I wonder if the Adders will ever come. Actually, I wonder about the ultimate fate of the homeworlds.

[StCptMara]

I wonder if the Adders will ever come. Actually, I wonder about the ultimate fate of the homeworlds.

They are out there, waiting...waiting for the time to come and Cleanse the source of the Taint once and
for all. They are waiting for the time when they shall come, and the worlds of the Inner Sphere will be
a great pyre for those who destroyed the precious Star League and then led to their own Trothkin betraying
the Way of Kerensky. They are waiting to be the Death of the Inner Sphere...

[DarkISI]

They are out there, waiting...waiting for the time to come and Cleanse the source of the Taint once and
for all. They are waiting for the time when they shall come, and the worlds of the Inner Sphere will be
a great pyre for those who destroyed the precious Star League and then led to their own Trothkin betraying
the Way of Kerensky. They are waiting to be the Death of the Inner Sphere...

They are waiting for coffee, actually. The machine broke a few decades ago and every time the technician from the Inner Sphere shows up, they kill him, because he is tainted.
And since they won't start their invasion without coffee but can't let a tainted Inner Sphere technician set foot in their realm, they are stuck in an infinite state of waiting.


Or so I have heard.

[Mecha-Anchovy]

The FedCom Civil war was caused by the Davion's pride. They could have just let Katherine have the Lyran half peacefully, and let Victor take the Federated Suns half peacefully, and there would have been no issues. But, no..they had to make it a Civil War.

Wait a second, what?

That is what they did.

Remember how Katherine tried to take over the Suns half? No?

[SCC]

Caleb my not have been the source of that. He was in charge from 35 to 44, so nearly 9 years. Considering that the BTU moves in slomo, that´s the blink of an eye and maybe not enough time t6o get any serious changes started.

And he was Heir before that

In the end it comes down to VTOLs being a bit more fragile. As has been pointed out some pages prior, the Prey Seeker can keep up impressive speed even with leg/hip damage, whilst a VTOL goes down with equivalent rotor damage.

We're talking about a pursuit scenario here, not a line battle, the fact that VTOLs are somewhat delicate shouldn't be a major issue, and if an extended chase breaks out while the Prey Seeker may be able to keep moving after losing some leg actuators it still loses MP, sooner or later it's not going to be viable

Again, Harrison drank the Cool Aid like crazy, so he´s the one behind the whole AFFS dirarmament. Caleb may have been a nut case, but not stupid at that. He may, in spirit with keeping the disarmamaent pact up, chose to not upgrade mech forces, but could have gone for neat tank designs, simply because he knew that kind of arms.

Who was in charge doesn't matter, just that they drank the Kool-Aid

[Rorke]

Well step off the reservation for a week or two, and look what happens.

Well here's a whole bunch of things to get stuck into eh.

Firstly thank you for the kind words StMara, almost as nice as being canonised that.  But I regret
that some corrections are perhaps in order.  Your observations about the FCCW were flawed, we
did allow Katie to keep the Lyran side.  It was her greed in usurping the Davion half, that eventually
caused the FCCW.  If she'd stayed in the blue corner, likely she'd have not started the whole mess in
the first place. 

Now this business of me being the lone voice in the wilderness, very amusing and possibly to some degree
true here and there.  Right now there does seem to be a distinct lack of my peers posting up here, but then
with some of the charming folks laying into us......I cannot blame my brothers for talking elsewhere and on
other matters.  Frankly the quality of debate, and the level of rancour that we seem to cultivate in our rivals
does not lend itself much to a fun argument often.  Rules being rules also get to some degree in the way, I've
a degree of skill at making myself heard.   The level of bias, bile and downright hate towards us does often get
in the way of  proper argument.  After all, who really wants to wallow with the pigs when the mud is that thick?

Mad Dogs and Englishmen however......

[Acolyte]

It really doesn't feel like a minority but I'll give the not so vocal FS fans the benefit of the doubt.  ;)

Like me! An interesting exercise is to count up the actual number of posters instead of posts. These guys are doing more harm to the FedSuns than any writer ever could. I think I can still count them on one hand, not counting the FedSuns haters who love to bash us and are delighted by every whine those vocal minorities post. It's funny, no other house has people who hate them as much as the Feddies. Go figure.

As to the position the FedSuns is in right now, I think is great! Absolutely fantastic! Compare it to the 4th SSW: The two biggest nations ganging up and smashing the smallest, for what reason? To free them? Poppycock. It was 'cause ol' Mad Max kidnapped Hanse and he got seriously pissed at them. To be fair, trying that and not succeeding is a great way to start a war and it did.

But now? We can justify all kinds of war just by saying that those worlds are ours and we're just taking them back! That's propper justification. And if we do take every single world back (not likely) we can justify continuing into their realms on the basis of they attacked us with no provocation! TPTB have given the FedSuns back the ability to morally use big stompy robots with lots of dacka on everybody within striking distance and still come out as justified! Brilliant!

So:
   - TPTB do not hate or favor any particular faction, at least not as a group (individuals are, by definition, individual of course)
   - As a rule, TPTB really love every faction to one degree or another (then again, you always hurt the ones you love...)
   - CLG has done a remarkably good job in polishing the turd left by WK
   - The artwork in this TRO and all the preceding ones has been outstanding! Can't wait to see the mini's.
   - So far, every faction is getting littered with new goodies
   - I can't wait to see the FM! Then I can use said goodies!
   - I can't wait to see what TPTB do now that they can take the BTU in whatever direction they want.

Cheers!
   - Shane

[ColBosch]

So...are we done discussing the Tech Readout now in favor of rehashing old arguments?