QuadVees

[Nerroth]

Now that Technical Readout: 3145 The Clans is available, the trio of QuadVees which Clan Hell's Horses have been using to try out this new hybrid class of unit are finally available for consideration.

(However, the full rules needed to operate them in "classic" BT will have to wait until Field Manual: 3145 is published, which hopefully won't be too much longer. Plus there's the issue of how they might end up being ported over to Alpha Strike someday.)


So, with the rules issue in mind, how do you see this unit type as working (or not) within the bounds of "classic" BattleTech or Alpha Strike?

Of the three models shown so far, is there any one in particular that stands out for you; or do you believe that all three might work well if deployed well together?

And beyond these initial models, do you see a future for this type of unit, be it in the Hell's Horses touman or as somethign worth adopting by A. N. Other faction in the BT universe?

[Kitsune413]

Its a steep buy in to produce a quad mech. You're giving up a lot of mass to build one.

They have a quad mech recordsheet. So they're basically a quad mech with conversion equipment and a separate type of mobility. In effect they should have all the advantages of a quad mech, as well as the survivability of a mech.

They can rotate their torso's 360 degrees and they have a separate gunner. So they shouldn't have to worry about targeting multiple enemies either?

[martian]

Nothing new for the Inner Sphere. I can't wait to see the Matsumoto-14 on Solaris VII.    ;)

But seriously, do we know how much time is needed for the conversion? Is it possible that the QuadVee "freezes" in some transitional phase?

[YingJanshi]

We do have rules for them. Sort of. Was in the draft preview of the IO 'Alternate Eras' file.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Oddly, for a clan unit, the primary use seems to be deception.  You can fly them in loaded into vehicle bays, bid a star of vehicles, and fight the trial with ten quad mechs. I'll be interested to see if they come in any flavor besides tracked.  A Hover or VTOL QuadVee would be intriguing.  the 360 degree torso twist is nice, makes it a little harder to outmaneuver them.

[Dragon Cat]

Of the three:

Arion - pretty good speed, and awesome firepower but very poor armour - it could be fixed with one less SRM-4 for more armour

Cyllaros - standard mobility for a medium, again pretty good firepower and horrible armour

Harpagos - WALKING TURRET - overall I think its probably the nastiest if the most limited

The QuadVee concept...

Suffers from the LAM required Conversion equipment and special equipment for example the 75 ton Harpagos spends 15.5 tons on conversion and tracks!!

On the plus side they can use Endo Steel structure, Ferro Fibrous armour and at least Laser Heat Sinks (all 3 have)

To me at least all threes torso sections seem to be capable of twisting in both modes, how far will be an interesting answer.

[O5P_Ghost]

Oddly, for a clan unit, the primary use seems to be deception.  You can fly them in loaded into vehicle bays, bid a star of vehicles, and fight the trial with ten quad mechs. I'll be interested to see if they come in any flavor besides tracked.  A Hover or VTOL QuadVee would be intriguing.  the 360 degree torso twist is nice, makes it a little harder to outmaneuver them.

I could see wheeled or hover but VTOL? Maybe a WIGE.

Wheeled would work well in a urban enviroment.

How do JJ work on them though? Kangamech IIC

[Maingunnery]

I'll be interested to see if they come in any flavor besides tracked.  A Hover or VTOL QuadVee would be intriguing.  the 360 degree torso twist is nice, makes it a little harder to outmaneuver them.

Yes, I would really want to see an 75 ton QuadVee-Hover.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I'd figure they'd have to obey the weight restrictions of the motive type they were using.  Or else I'd want to see a hundred-ton QuadVee VTOL. :D

[Maingunnery]

I'd figure they'd have to obey the weight restrictions of the motive type they were using.  Or else I'd want to see a hundred-ton QuadVee VTOL. :D

Let me guess it would be named Dumbo?  ;)

[Istal_Devalis]

Don't really have a comment on their performance yet, but man are those things ugly in mech mode.
Like a bunch of tractors sprouted legs.

[YingJanshi]

Don't really have a comment on their performance yet, but man are those things ugly in mech mode.
Like a bunch of tractors sprouted legs.

 [wildandcrazy].  :D

Oh man...that was just too funny...

[Kitsune413]

Don't really have a comment on their performance yet, but man are those things ugly in mech mode.
Like a bunch of tractors sprouted legs.

The harpagos isnt that ugly. I kind of like it. The other two are hideous

[Aldous]

Robot Jox bivee was better.

[ph423r]

What I'm not getting with the QuadVee's is why would you use one over either a vehicle or mech besides for the sneaky bidding reason? Am I not seeing it, or is the reason probably in the rules that we don't yet have?

[mbear]

This is based on the record sheets from TRO:3145 Clans

More important for me is the fact that a QuadVee (apparently) can't carry anything in the legs except the tracks and the conversion gear. So you lose eight critical slots there. Then you lose the critical slot in the head for the second pilot too. So you're down nine critical slots on a chassis that already doesn't have as many as a bipedal 'Mech.

This means you're limited to the two crits in the CT, and 12 in each side torso. When you start adding Endo-Steel or Ferro-Fibrous armor, you run out of crits pretty quickly. I suppose you could gain some crits in the CT with a compact gyro though.

[WarGod]

Quad Vee's sounds more like GUNHED, not exactly the MAs-14 from robot jocks.   Anyways how much payoad are we losing in a Quad Vee?  You lose space with a quad chassis, then you factor in some type of space for conversion equipment, so is the loss of payload worth it? Do you gain a movement advantage?

[Col.Hengist]

Robot Jox bivee was better.

 Do they fly into space for no good reason, just to land and break a leg?

[Kitsune413]

Quad Vee's sounds more like GUNHED, not exactly the MAs-14 from robot jocks.   Anyways how much payoad are we losing in a Quad Vee?  You lose space with a quad chassis, then you factor in some type of space for conversion equipment, so is the loss of payload worth it? Do you gain a movement advantage?

No movement advantage from what I can tell. The tracks take up 10% of the units weight. The conversion equipment takes up 10% of your units weight, rounded up! So any mech will lose 20% (plus a half ton on some weight brackets) of its mass.

Advantages: Changing heights? I imagine that in vehicle form they're a level 1 platform, while in quad form they're level 2. They can rotate their torso completely.

In the fluff the main advantage I'm seeing is that it lets the Horses cheat during bidding. Or at least misdirect their opponents.

Otherwise the only other benefit I see to them is that it makes Clan Hells Horses really, really unique.

[nckestrel]

It seems like any advantage gets eaten up, almost directly, by disadvantages.

Comparing to a tank: you get to use double heat sinks!  but you lose the free missile/ballistics heat, and you could have used the tonnage from conversion equipment/paying for tracks to get more heat sinks.

comparing to a mech: you get a turret on all torso locations!  if you take a gyro hit, you can switch to tracked mode instead!  ok, but you could have just used that tonnage to armor the gyro and put some 'mech turrets on it.    you do get the road bonus for vehicle mode, but a bigger engine/masc/supercharger would be more useful to most people? 

The major thing, in my opinion, is what they mean to the Hell's Horses and clan society in general, not that they're a change in combat ability.  A tank with double heat sinks, controlled by one crew (in tank mode), can claim the same status as a mechwarrior (I've got a 'mech!)?  That's a big step up for a tanker in dealing with the other clans?  The poor mechwarrior is just along for the ride?

[Rtifs]

They pay for their conversion equipment by sacrificing speed and armor.  So they are slower and under armored IMO for an equivalent regular clan unit of comparable mass.  However, I think these are tailor made to fight in dense terrain.  Consider that they can maneuver in cities in vehicle mode.  No one will have LOS to them.  Once in position, they pop-up in mech mode, take some shots, and when the return fire gets too hot, drop back down to vehicle mode again.  This assumes that conversion-time will be no more than one turn.  Hopefully it’ll just be a moving/shooting penalty during the turn that they convert. 

[Sigma]

I am only disappointed that nobody has named their Cyllaros "White Base" yet, even if DA is pretty much Late-UC right now.

[YingJanshi]

Okay here's a question (sorry can't find the rules in that IO draft): while in vee mode do they suffer motive hits? If not, that's a huge advantage over regular vees.

[Kitsune413]

I don't think you can roll on the vehicle to hit table on them? I haven't seen the rules. But they come with a quad record sheet and far to many hit locations for a tank.

[Diablo48]

It seems like any advantage gets eaten up, almost directly, by disadvantages.

Comparing to a tank: you get to use double heat sinks!  but you lose the free missile/ballistics heat, and you could have used the tonnage from conversion equipment/paying for tracks to get more heat sinks.

comparing to a mech: you get a turret on all torso locations!  if you take a gyro hit, you can switch to tracked mode instead!  ok, but you could have just used that tonnage to armor the gyro and put some 'mech turrets on it.    you do get the road bonus for vehicle mode, but a bigger engine/masc/supercharger would be more useful to most people? 

The major thing, in my opinion, is what they mean to the Hell's Horses and clan society in general, not that they're a change in combat ability.  A tank with double heat sinks, controlled by one crew (in tank mode), can claim the same status as a mechwarrior (I've got a 'mech!)?  That's a big step up for a tanker in dealing with the other clans?  The poor mechwarrior is just along for the ride?

I am with you on the functionality of the unit, although I think the more interesting social impact is how the reflect on LAMs.  They are pushing back into the grey area that caused LAMs to fall out of use among the Clans in the first place, so they may be a sign that LAMs are going to make a resurgence among the Clans who seem to have retained the technical know-how to build them.

[nckestrel]

I am with you on the functionality of the unit, although I think the more interesting social impact is how the reflect on LAMs.  They are pushing back into the grey area that caused LAMs to fall out of use among the Clans in the first place, so they may be a sign that LAMs are going to make a resurgence among the Clans who seem to have retained the technical know-how to build them.

I think a point (5) of quad protomechs transforming into a (relatively) giant battlemech is more likely.

[Alexander Knight]

I think a point (5) of quad protomechs transforming into a (relatively) giant battlemech is more likely.

Go Voltron Force!

[Molossian Dog IIC]

Frankly speaking wanting to see the Quadvees was the main reason I picked up TRO Clans at all. I don´t have the rules preview, but from what I know there are some questions regarding the idea behind building them at all:

1.) Motive hits?
Do we know if they can receive motive hits in Vee mode? If yes, do they somehow carry over to the Mech mode? If not, that would be a fairly big advantage.

2.) Gyro Hits?
As far as I know gyro hits wouldn´t affect the Quadvees when in Vee mode. In theory you would have a fall back option in case of massive or total gyro damage.

3.) Two Cockpits?
Do I understand this correctly? If one cockpit location would get critted, let´s say the gunner, would the Mech pilot (I assume pilot means MechWarrior) be able to carry on in Mech mode without any limitations and vice versa?

4.) Turret notes!
Let´s compare a QuadVee with a QuadMech with a turret. I cannot look it up right now, but as far as I know a QuadMech turrets weigh 10% of its weapons and is restricted to one torso location (left or right) The QuadVee on the other hand seems not to pay (in terms of tons and critical slots) at all for his turret, as all of his three torso locations ARE the turret. Of course the conversion gear/track arrangement eats up the weigh/crit advantage here, but the advantage seems to be that you can pack all 26 free torso locations full with weapons that all have a 360 degree field of fire and no upper limit in weight.
If this is really the "big thing" about Quadvees, then only the Harpagos makes full use of it. The two lighter QuadVees would have fared better as a QuadMech with a turret.

5.) Hit locations?
I am at a loss here.

6.) Tactics!
Personally I am a huge fan of having the option to let a unit stand one or two levels high. While many might roll eyes (and not a few of my fellow players did) I used to sometimes throw my Mechs on their bellies when wanting to break LOS with the enemy. Now QuadVees might have a lot of surprising axes of advance, where they remain hidden behind level 1 ridges or buildings only to pop up and pepper the enemy from an unexpected angle and from partial cover. And (if my presuppositions are right) should you loose the driver cockpit and/or take a gyro hit, you could still drop back on your tracks and fight with no loss of effectivity.
In terms of actual mobility (i.e. MPs) I don´t see that much advantages you get for a Mech. The other way round if you look at the unit as a vehicle, rough terrain mobility increases, of course. But the road bonus is kind of "meh" as you cannot rely on your battlefield to always provide you with the roads to the hexes you want to reach this turn. If it were only about the additional MP you would be better off with a supercharger.
All in all these tactical peculiarities strike me as rather situational. But it certainly provides lots of flavour.


Aesthetically I kinda like their tractor look. Way more utilitarian than your typical clan plastic toy style. (Let´s not talk about the emo ProtoMechs...)

My summary: Weird, but cool, in a very special, quirky way. Even in its hideousness.  O0

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EDIT:

I think a point (5) of quad protomechs transforming into a (relatively) giant battlemech is more likely.

Prerequisite: Temporal suspension of gravity, 80ies-style synthesizer cookie cutter jingle, invariable one-liners exclaimed at the top of the lungs by all Protos involved.

[Nerroth]

In terms of using them in combat, would any (or all) of the three known models work well with the Horses' original take on the Mongol Doctrine, as outlined in Era Report: 3145?

Also, depending on how the translation was handled, could the way in which move-related to-hit bonuses work in Alpha Strike be a benefit to these units in that game system; or would it be no more or less so than what is already available for pre-existing quad 'Mechs or tracked vehicles in AS?

[martian]

There is one thing I don't understand:

When my 'Mech is standing next to the QuadVee that is in the vehicle mode, and I kick the QuadVee - it seems that I can only kick its torso, but not its legs? That would be strange.