Tell me about...the Cougar

[Alan Grant]

I'm very interested in the Clan Cougar. Looks like a good machine, in particular I'm trying to evaluate the different variants to pick 1-3 favorites. I'd like to get some recommendations.

[Ian Sharpe]

Great mech against the IS, or for fighting BA or light/medium vees.  Its fantastic against anything but the very cutting edge that the Lyrans field.  I wouldn't field it in a Clan Trial unless it was a non-Mech unit.  The Prime, A, B and C are all solid as the Cougar can be within the limits of the chassis.  The others I haven't used very often. 

[Neufeld]

A solid design with good configs, but I am not a fan of lights that moves 5/8/0.

[Stormcrow]

Too slow, but adequately armor. The big plus is the 19 tons of configurable space. It's best used in Elemental support or as a Sniper. it's too slow to keep with other clan lights and mediums, so it suffers when taking on Omnis like the Kit Fox, Adder or anything else within 15 tons of its weight.

[Southern Coyote]

I'm a big fan of the Adder, its predecessor.  For its weight, its too slow.  And compared to the Adder, its not as well armored.  You're better off going with an Adder, IMHO...

[DragonKhan55]

I'm a big fan of the Adder, its predecessor.  For its weight, its too slow.  And compared to the Adder, its not as well armored.  You're better off going with an Adder, IMHO...

Depends on your preferences. The Adder, or Puma as the freebirths would say, is a faster and slightly (0.5ton) better armored machine, but the Cougar has much better configurations (Looks at the atrocious heat levels on the Adder Prime) and, due to its lower speed, carries more guns than the Adder. In addition, your tactical preferences will determine which unit you like better-the Cougar in Attack Stars, or the Adder in Recon/Hunter-Killer Stars.

OOC: Ran an Adder Prime and a Cougar Prime in ten one v one tests in a sparsely forested map. Cougar won 6/10, but was always also badly mauled. Heat-hog or not, twin Clantech ER-PPCs hurt on any light mech!

[Fallen_Raven]

Oddly enough the fluff implies that it's a standard Mech rather than an omin. Of course with how fast techs can perform changes in Battletech it doesn't actually matter.  ;D

On a more relevant note if you use the Prime, you can crit seek, an advantage that can't be ignored.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I'm sorry, but run those by me again?  It's most certainly described in the fluff as an omni, and the Prime's really not a very good critseeker.  The D is the critseeker of its configs.

[Fallen_Raven]

After the Refusal War with Clan Wolf, Falcon Khan Marthe Pryde decided to upgrade the 'Mechs her Clan fielded as they rebuilt. Rather than waste precious resources designing a new OmniMech from the ground up, she instructed her scientists to improve upon existing designs.

Pulled from Sarna.net as I don't have a copy of the TRO infront of me, but I do remember something very similar. As I said it implies that it was designed as a standard 'Mech. Obviously it is, says so on the page and in the stats section, but it struck me as amusing that it could be just as effective without the omin features.

As to the LRMs I meant that the Prime configuration could crit seek, however poorly, better than the Adder Prime can. Having 4 weapons over 3 allows this alone, the clusters from the missles just gives a little extra utility for no real cost.

[Iron Mongoose]

If you feel like a lot of reading, the last thread with this very name got a bit heated, but there's good information to be found.

For my part, I can't stand the Couger.  I think its terrable.  Its too slow and too weekly armored to survive, and it carries too many guns and of too high a quality to avoid being a prime target.  It has the power (and the BV) of a quality heavy, but the armor of a light, and not even full armor, and movement no better than thouse heavy mechs that are shooting at it, so it can't even hope to get away.  Yes, its a great mech to bully other lights around, and rightly it should be.  The Urbie does well in that role too, because it trades away so much engine for guns and armor.  But, the Urbie can't hope to catch light mechs if they want to bolt, and the Couger is in a similar boat.  May as well use a Nova or a Timby as your bully, and lessen the risk that the other lights, which still pack some punch, hit you back and score a kill.

The only thing that saves the Couger from being absolutly useless is that it has some of the best executed configurations of any omnimech.  Twin LPLs on the Prime would make any mech look good, and twin PPCs with some heatsinks is such a welcome change from mechs like the Adder Prime, Nova A, Hellbringer Prime, and Warhawk Prime that we're prepaired to ignore the other deficancies it has vis a vis thouse mechs (low speed, low armor, no TC).  I've argued that if the Hellbringer had the Couger's configurations rather than the problematic ones it infact got, it would have been the most beloved mech out of TRO3050, even with its minimal armor and antiquated tech base.  As it stands, the Couger A has about as much ranged punch as the Hellbringer Prime, and the C is broadly similar to the Hellbringer B , but with even less armor and no more speed!  If the Hellbringer was a quick way to kill a lot of power, what is the Couger?

The only time its a good use is when you're ballancing by tonnage.  If tonnage matters, the Couger is one of the kings of the game.  But, if its about cost or about BV or about mech for mech quality, the Couger is not.  Even for its tonnage, I prefer mechs like the Hellion or even the older Adder, if not for the less efficant configurations.

[Fallen_Raven]

Don't forget a key aspect of the Cougar that you can't ignore. It is a sweet looking ride! Cause it isn't enough to be good, you gotta look good doing it. 8)

[Moonsword]

Pulled from Sarna.net as I don't have a copy of the TRO infront of me, but I do remember something very similar. As I said it implies that it was designed as a standard 'Mech.

Sarna's paraphrase is building implications that aren't there in the original, the relevant section of which is quoted below.

...Khan Marthe Pryde of Clan Jade Falcon wanted to bring new and deadly OmniMechs to the field of battle.  Knowing she had already taxed her Clan to the limit in the conflict with Clan Wolf, she took an unprecedented step.  Rather than building a new OmniMech from the ground up, she assigned the Jade Falcon scientist caste the job of modifying a proven design...

My opinion on the 'Mech is broadly similar to Iron Mongoose's.

[Adgar76]

While i agree with the others here on the weaknesses of the base chassis, it doesn't mean it cannot be used against the typically slower IS forces to good effect Personally, i have found that it works best supporting slower and heavier units, which are going to attract a lot more attention and will usually be easier targets. Even so, you have to be very careful in how much you expose a Cougar to return fire, but with the firepower its configs pack it can really make a difference.
I would avoid using it against other Clan forces, with its speed and armor there are good chances it will be dead in a couple rounds. Just think what an Ice Ferret could do to a Cougar..

[Demon55]

An Ice Ferret could run circles around the Cougar while hitting at range until the Cougar becomes scrap. 

Not a very high opinion of the Cougar in my book.  It gives up too much speed for weapons.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I tend to be a fan of weapons and armor in the "Weapons, Armor, Speed-pick any two" paradigm.  So I like the Cougar, such as it is.  It's sort of the Clan Panther.  Now, would I take it against Clan heavies, or even high end mediums?  I'd really rather not.  For bullying other lights though, it's not half bad.  I'm not sure I understand the fear that faster lights will bounce around at range and peck at it.  The Prime has two of the best gun in the game for dealing with those sorts of anoyances, and LRMs to back it up, and there's really no variant except the F and H that can be easily outranged either.

[Moonsword]

I don't look down on it as much as Mongoose does (I said my opinion was similar, not identical), but it's a lot like the Hollander - a lot of firepower, limited survivability, and limited speed for its era.  In addition, "useful against IS gear" is not really the proper comparison for a Clan 'Mech and doesn't tell the whole story here.  The Cougar is frequently facing down a large medium or low-end heavy with an equal pilot in BV terms, meaning firepower is likely equivalent, speed may be, and the 'Mech's armor is going to be found wanting a lot of the time.

On the other hand, I'm not disfavorably inclined to the Hollander, either, despite willingly describing it under similar but even less flattering terms.  It doesn't have the sort of crazy appeal the Hollander does but it's certainly nice looking and can generate a lot of fire until someone gets around to smacking it properly.  Which they will.

[Headshot]

To me, the Cougar is nothing more than a Hellbringer that drops nearly half its weight by losing the superfluous weapons from its haphazard configurations.
With all the same problems (weak armor barely protecting great firepower = prime target) and only the one good point that the resulting configs are actually quite good.

The thing is, i never thought you should judge an Omni by its standard configs, as tweaking the loads is the very point of the Omni concept.
Even standard Battlemechs are commonly modified to pilot preferences or necessity, with Omnis it should happen even more often. Nearly every named character rides a personalized Mech in the books!

Whats stopping the next Adder driver from trading the ER-PPCs for LPLs and send the Cougar packing?
And btw, even the Adder isn't one of my favorites, i'm a firm believer in "Speed = Life" for Lights.
Cause both the Cougar and the Adder will lose to the equally fast, but even better armed and armored Stormcrow...

[Southern Coyote]

Ofcourse, you could always go for the Pouncer.  Better movement profile, slightly heavier, better configs IMHO with TarComps.  The armor has roughly the same percentage covered, but I feel like its a stronger design...

[lowrolling]

Despite the armor Configuration B is a game changer as long as you remember that you are a light mech.

[StCptMara]

Despite the armor Configuration B is a game changer as long as you remember that you are a light mech.

The C, in the right hands, is also a dangerous design...
And, for the versatility, I like the Prime.

[Demos]

The Cougar is a good short-gap measure for fighting the IS.
With its firepower and speed it can fight against most mediums and many heavy IS Mechs. Especially in the late 50's/early 60s.

Ofcourse, you could always go for the Pouncer.  Better movement profile, slightly heavier, better configs IMHO with TarComps.  The armor has roughly the same percentage covered, but I feel like its a stronger design...

As long as you are Clan Wolf...

[Iron Mongoose]

I will alow that part of my opinion is a pattern of taking a stance on an issue, either good or bad, rather than simply leaving it that something is gray, despite things being gray the larger part of the time in actuality.  The Cougar is more black than it is white, but as even I alow there is some white to it; its not entirely with out use.

That said, if tonnage (including weight class) is not an issue, then the Cougar is not a mech that should be used.  For the BV or for the cost or for the space in your star or in your dropship, you can get better and more effective mechs.

When tonnage (including weight class) is an issue, then it can sometimes be worth taking.  For example, in one edition of the FGC rules, any light mech cost the same to take as any other, and any medium mech cost the same, and more than any light, so a mech like the Cougar can be desirable to take over a medium mech, because the cost difrence is in keeping with the lower amount of performance.  Yes, any medium would be better, but not enough better to make up for the cost under that system (a medium cost 150% of a light mech, yet few carry 28.5 tons of guns, which is 150% of the Cougar's payload).  Under BV, or under cost, or under mech number, the math is difrent (most Stormcrows cost only 20-30% more, with the C costing just 100 points more than the top Cougars, to give one example).

The main problem is defense.  There are many ways to achive defense in BT.  You can use range, you can use speed, you can use armor.  The Cougar gives up speed and armor, and though it has range, it does not have significantly more range than many other mechs.  The resualt is that many people argue that it should function as a ranged support mech in larger battles, much like the Longbow 0W with its low armor and high ranged power did.  There are two key problems.  One is that the Longbow had more range that most likely opponents.  Another was that the LRM launcher had built in penalties at close range, and so had a cost bonus as a ranged weapon.  The Couger does not, so it pays its full price to be a ranged unit and get only partial value.  Putting the same guns on a Stormcrow or on a Summoner is better value, because these mechs have the speed and armor to use them in a wider veriaty of ways, in close or mid ranges, or on other terrains where the Couger can not because of its relitively lower speed and armor. 

[Moonsword]

That same edition of the FGC rules allowed one to deploy eight companies of Level 1 light vehicles for the same price as a company of Level 2 medium 'Mechs.  Maintaining relative numbers, we're talking about plopping down eight Saladins against a single STY-3D Starslayer.  And that would be wrong.

It'd probably be hilarious to watch, though.

[Iron Mongoose]

If you use green units, you can get a whole regement of light tanks for your 1FP, which was an occasional bid from millita units, to take on a company of regular medium mechs, or three elite Clan assualt mechs, which was an occasional counter bid (I'd personaly take a binary of regular clan lights, since I'm not confidant that green IS units would ever be able to hit them).

Back to the Couger, the prime might be a good bid there, since it has the twin LPLs for one FP, though even then I'd probably rather have an Incubus, since its speed means it will be hit less than half as often.  And again, its an example of the Couger only being worth taking because it has baller configurations.

[Moonsword]

You're only a company short of a regiment with no command formations with regular level 1 vees anyway.  At that point, I'll leave the others as "down for maintenance".  But yeah, the Cougar could be a contender for that sort of thing in the right terrain.

[Auren]

I ran a test a while back during the Cougar thread.

If the Cougar pilot has /Duke Nuke'em Balls of Steel /Duke Nuke'em he can take on a Hellbringer quite handily.

[17thRecon]

I can't give any play advice, but I have two things to say about the Cougar:

1. It looks great.
2. I am not a LAM fan whatsoever, but the art to the Cougar always makes me think it should have a LAM version.  It reminds me of a Raptor (jet) with laser arms and legs.

Take that for what it is worth... ;D

[StCptMara]

I ran a test a while back during the Cougar thread.

If the Cougar pilot has /Duke Nuke'em Balls of Steel /Duke Nuke'em he can take on a Hellbringer quite handily.

This is how ANY Clan 'mech should be used though...being conservative does not win one a Bloodname.
Now...take down a Dire Wolf with the Cougar and show us you really have what it takes!  :D

[A. Lurker]

I don't believe I've ever actually used a Cougar -- except possibly in my MechCommander days, and that doesn't quite count. :)

Looking over its stats, though...it seems to me that it combines, by Clan standards, the firepower of a medium and the speed of a heavy 'Mech with all the armor and toughness of a light. So, it can't keep up with its weight class in terms of speed and can't fight in its speed class on account of its weight -- hardly what I'd call a winning combination!

I imagine it may work as a dueling machine. If your opponent is kind of honor-bound to face you and do it in a machine of about equal weight, then the Cougar could potentially have a bit of an edge, provided its pilot can keep it from getting outflanked by a harder-to-hit adversary too often. But similar to the Kit Fox, it's not a 'Mech that I'd particularly trust to get its firepower where I need it in time and without getting shot to pieces first on an actual battlefield.

[bsmart]

I like the Cougar in certain situations. In an all out brawl with dozens of mechs in a free for all the Cougar is a priority target as it has a big punch but it's slow and only moderately armored. In more traditional clan fights it's a very dangerous machine as zell can allow it to engage clan opponents one on one where it's size guarantees it'll be facing opponents its large payload can seriously hurt quickly. It also works good in things like ambushes, city fighting, or anywhere you can be reasonably assured you'll be facing mostly light or medium mechs like an anti-scout screen or on backstabber protection duty.

That said it make a lot of trade offs that are questionable. It's slow at 5/8 and it's armor isn't all that heavy. If you look at the Wolf Lobo it's 5 tons heavier but the Lobo has heavier armor, equal pod space, and moves at 6/9. An omni-fied Lobo would be a superior machine. Long story short, a lot of trade offs were made to get that pod tonnage and they could have been avoided with a slight increase in the tonnage of the mech.

Overall I like the Cougar but I don't make use of it all that much since it's a Jade Falcon design.