Should the Clans abandon the Aerospace Phenotype?

[Alan Grant]

In recent years it seems like canon literature has increasingly made the assertion that the Clan aerospace pilot phenotype is basically a failure. That it failed to achieve any real edge over a freeborn or Inner Sphere pilot.

I'm not talking about equipment. I know that as early as Operation Revival canon writers have asserted that in aerospace combat, because of the nature of dogfighting, Clan pilots just didn't have as much as an advantage over their Inner Sphere adversaries. I've repeatedly seen BT fans on forums like this one sorta drop-kick and bounce that assertion based on the advantages of Clan tech even in aero combat.

No...I'm talking about the Phenotype itself. In the Protomech section of TRO 3060, the writer says something to the effect of "even though few Clans will admit it the aerospace pilot phenotype has basically failed to achieve its goals". One sentence on page 189 specifically says, "In fact, despite all the effort put into selective breeding and intensive training, Clan pilots have proven inferior to their Inner Sphere counterparts."

With that in mind I pose the question for discussion. Should the Clans abandon the aerospace phenotype? Or at least work to take it in a different direction?

(A caveat, I'm not familiar with the Post-Jihad material on the Clans, such as the 3142 timeline publications, so if the Clans have changed how they do this somehow, please enlighten me)

[Tai Dai Cultist]

The in-universe decision may be up in the air.

Kinda looks like the real-world decision though is to retcon it away, or at least under the rug.

When was the last time we even saw one of those E.T. lookin' pilots in artwork?  I mean, where they didn't look like a normal person instead, like the Vampire Queen.

[Kitsune413]

They dont add anything to the setting appealing to players.people would like to play clan elementals. But not aerospace pilots. In the beginning they fullfill the role of making the clans seem odd and different. But they dont reallyfunction with the rule of cool.

[Diablo48]

That and they make a convenient scapegoat for the failures of the Clans despite the fact that all the numbers give the Clans overwhelming aerospace superiority over the IS and aerospace combat rarely has much of an impact on events in-universe.

[Kitsune413]

That and they make a convenient scapegoat for the failures of the Clans despite the fact that all the numbers give the Clans overwhelming aerospace superiority over the IS and aerospace combat rarely has much of an impact on events in-universe.

Pshaw. You are a ghost bear. You guys never used the phenotype anyways...

They are pretty beast in atow though.

[Kitsune413]

You know on that note id like to see ghost bear aerospace pilot stats...

They are still genetically breeding the traits over and over after all.

[Stormlion1]

Getting rid of the phenotype would be to admit to the programs failure and to throw out several (dozen) bloodlines. The clans aren't noted for admiting to failure even in the best of times. I could see the Clans slowly phasing the aerospace type out, or at least into a more Inner Sphere style pilot or changing the phenotype into a protomech phenotype.

[Ratwedge]

The clans aren't noted for admiting to failure even in the best of times.

The Clans are pretty well known for Reaving Bloodlines that dont work, if the Aeropspace lines were such a failure as some IS sources claim they would have Reaved them into oblivion years ago for being terrible warriors.

[Stormlion1]

The Clans are pretty well known for Reaving Bloodlines that dont work, if the Aeropspace lines were such a failure as some IS sources claim they would have Reaved them into oblivion years ago for being terrible warriors.

Bloodlines yes, an entire phenotype? That's pushing things, especially if in some Clans that Phenotype is the dominant type. Were would the Snow Ravens be without the aerospace phenotype? No the Clans would attempt to improve the aerospace phenotype further before cashing its chips in on the entire phenotype. There only other option is to use Freeborns to pilot Clan Aerospace fighters in a attempt to replicate Inner Sphere prowess.
That or actually bid there pilots in battles to get them get experience, that is the real reason the aerospace phenotype has a lousy track record.

[Ratwedge]

Bloodlines yes, an entire phenotype? That's pushing things, especially if in some Clans that Phenotype is the dominant type. Were would the Snow Ravens be without the aerospace phenotype?

Larger Aerospace pilots? There has been scant few comments about the effectiveness of the Phenotype and I would shudder to think we could white wash an entire Phenotype, especially when there was no such complaints about their effectiveness throughout the Jihad, a conflict which demanded far more of them than Operation Revival.

That or actually bid there pilots in battles to get them get experience, that is the real reason the aerospace phenotype has a lousy track record.

Do you have any evidence to support the fact Clan Aerospace is still conducting itself like it was Operation Revival or are we assuming they perpetuate the sterotype through the Jihad to the current Era? That is a hard pill to swallow.

[Kitsune413]

Clans that use protomechs have no reason to remove them. No reason not to make them protomech pilot phenotypes and the idea that they breed them and implant them with ei makes their strangeness cool.

But we have a romantic notion of aerospace pilots someone like sterling mckenna fits but phelans friend whatshisface iforgothisname from clan wolf doesnt.

[cold1]

I was just thinking about this over the weekend.  So we know new super heavy protos have cockpits large enough for regular people, but do they still require VDNI???  Is it possible to train pilots to operate fighters and protos???

What does the neuro-link look like if used in a fighter?  Could aero phenotypes become a viable resource if they could be used in both rolls? 

Or if the new super heavy protos do not require the neuro-link (granted I think they do) could a standard warrior phenotype be trained to pilot both.  Thus, you train your warriors to be warriors and then at some point they test out to either mech or Proto/aero.  It streamlines the iron womb process and the DNA managing as well.  Maybe they test for mechs first and failure results in a second test for the aero/Proto roll.

This could make the phenotype obsolete. 

I'll admit I think clan pilots and tankers were nerfed more to make the clans beatable in universe than anything else.  It seems the best clan pilots are the ones who see the most action regardless of phenotype.

[Alan Grant]

I should clarify the original question, because a few of the posts I'm seeing were not in line with the intent of my question. I was NOT suggesting those aero lines get reaved. Simply that the phenotype might be abandoned in future generations. There is a huge difference there. Reaving good warrior lines because of problems with a phenotype would be wasteful (and the Clans hate waste).

No genetic lines were reaved to create the Tanker phenotype, or the aero phenotype, or the Elementals. Existing DNA was manipulated. You use that raw material to create. There is no good reason to destroy it. Altering/abandoning a Phenotype doesn't demand you throw out DNA, you just keep manipulating it.

Hypothetical example....Pilot Alice Rhyde (Current generation) is an aero phenotype pilot. The scientists and Clan Council decide to abandon the Phenotype. Maybe when a sibko is made of Alice Rhyde those sibkids DNA steer more toward the direction of the mechwarrior lines, possibly through the selection of a mechwarrior gene-father, or just straight up changing the breeding protocols. If all the aero bloodlines did this, within say 3-10 generations all your pilots start to look a lot more like mechwarriors or normal humans. Or something radically different because you start to experiment again in another attempt to create a distinctive phenotype that will be more successful this time. Maybe the end result isn't so radical as the scientists try to find a comfortable middle ground that retains some of the benefits but offsets some of the weaknesses.

The phenotype is a result of genetic experimentation, its the result of a set of breeding protocols. The scientists tinkered and engineered to get to this point, so you "un" tinker, or tinker in a different direction. The phenotype either changes into something utterly new or stops becoming so radically different and starts to draw a line toward more familiar territory (like the Ghost Bear lines).

That's what I meant by the question.

If abandoning a phenotype meant reaving all those lines it would never happen. It would never get the votes in any Clan Council. In the Clan Council you don't sell this as a failure "and now lets throw out the resulting trash". No you say, "We tried that, it has not worked as well for our pilots as we had hoped. So even as we use these breeding protocols for our Protomechs, let us steer future generations of aerospace pilots toward a path that may be more successful."

[Maelwys]

In recent years it seems like canon literature has increasingly made the assertion that the Clan aerospace pilot phenotype is basically a failure. That it failed to achieve any real edge over a freeborn or Inner Sphere pilot.

Has it really been in recent years though? I seem to recall hearing about in the 3050's-60s, but nothing really beyond that. Considering the Society was messing with results for ProtoMechs, they might have been doing the same for the Aerospace Phenotype so they had enough washed up pilots for their own nefarious means.

Mechanically (based on RPG stats), the aerospace pilot is sound. Increased Reflexes, Dexterity and G-Tolerance gives them an edge (though Glass Jaw will increase any damage the pilot takes by alot). It also provides the Aptitude for the various aerospace pilot skills, so they're hardly falling behind.

I can't help but think that the aerospace phenotype is being unfairly picked on. Sure, it may not have provided the same overwhelming superiority that the `MechWarrior and Elemental phenotypes provided that Clans, but it also has several strikes against it, most notably that an aerospace fight doesn't allow Clantech to provide the overwhelming advantage that it does in ground combat, and second that aerospace pilots are probably less experienced than their `MechWarrior cousins, simply because of the trial system the Clans have.

Fast forward to 3145 when pilots have probably better training to deal with the style of fights they have, rather than limited Trials, and more combat, and I think the aerospace phenotype will function just as well as the `MechWarrior phenotype. Atleast in augmented combat. That Glass Jaw and negative to strength and body will hurt it in non-augmented combat.

[Hedgehogey]

But we have a romantic notion of aerospace pilots someone like sterling mckenna fits but phelans friend whatshisface iforgothisname from clan wolf doesnt.

Carew Nygrew or however you spell it

[Kitsune413]

I can't help but think that the aerospace phenotype is being unfairly picked on. Sure, it may not have provided the same overwhelming superiority that the `MechWarrior and Elemental phenotypes provided that Clans, but it also has several strikes against it, most notably that an aerospace fight doesn't allow Clantech to provide the overwhelming advantage that it does in ground combat, and second that aerospace pilots are probably less experienced than their `MechWarrior cousins, simply because of the trial system the Clans have.

It is being unfairly picked on. The reason their aerospace pilots can't compete is because the Inner Sphere relies on Wingmen and group tactics and the Clans are specifically brawlers...

But that doesn't mean the Clans care why it isn't working. They just know it isn't. Oddly, Protomechs seem to work together pretty well.

[TigerShark]

I think their "failure" is a result of real-world gaming results. Aerospace is heavily dependent on initiative. A smaller force is completely outclassed by a larger, lighter force, even if they have huge guns. The Clan pilots produce Clan BVs, creating a 2- or 3-on-1 scenario. If you lose initiative 2-3 turns in a row, you're taking nothing but Aft shots and going down pretty quickly.

The phenotype itself isn't a failure. BattleTech's initiative system is what's failing the Clans.

[Kitsune413]

Aerospace forces tend to field more experienced recruits as well. Aerospace fighters are expensive and they either explode into the ground or fly off aimlessly in space. You dont get to salvage them often. So most green pilots dont get to see combat.

[Diablo48]

Aerospace forces tend to field more experienced recruits as well. Aerospace fighters are expensive and they either explode into the ground or fly off aimlessly in space. You dont get to salvage them often. So most green pilots dont get to see combat.

I also seem to recall aerospace pilots having worse odds of surviving ejection than Mechwarriors, especially in space over planets where they have a good chance of making an unplanned reentry before someone can pick them up.

[ColonelCody]

I dont know if you could really say they havent done well. Clan warships and aerospace have done remarkably well. Look at Clan Snow Raven...They seem to be pretty wel loff even into the DA era. Andif i'm not mistkan warships, dropships and jumpships are crewed by Aerospace Phenotypes right? Or offshoots thereof?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I dont know if you could really say they havent done well. Clan warships and aerospace have done remarkably well. Look at Clan Snow Raven...They seem to be pretty wel loff even into the DA era. Andif i'm not mistkan warships, dropships and jumpships are crewed by Aerospace Phenotypes right? Or offshoots thereof?

That's another can of worms entirely.

Surely there are Aerospace phenotypes IN the crew, but it's also made up of some greater mix including Naval phenotypes (which may or may not be an offshoot of Aerospace), freeborn warriors, and lower castemen.

[Maelwys]

WarShips and DropShips and JumpShips are often commanded by the Phenotypes, and the officers probably are, but I think the majority of the crew are technician or basic warrior.

I suppose another major disadvantage the Clanners might have had was the armor of the original Aerospace fighters. True, the Inner Sphere bricks didn't come into existence until the 3060's and beyond, but IIRC, the Clan fighters always seemed light on armor to me.

[Stormfury]

Eh. Clan Aerospace sucking is entirely a retcon of the Twilight of the Clans arc, where the threat of the Clans in general was greatly diminished.

Early publications indicate that the Clans enjoyed overwhelming superiority in space, and the rules for Clan pilots in the old, first-edition BattleTech Compendium provide them with both a skill-based benefit over their IS competitors and the ability to withstand harsher maneuvers. Even the Ghost Bear thing isn't one that completely lines up, given that Karl Bourjon (ASF phenotype Bloodname) is described in such a way as to strongly imply if not outright state that he was an ASF phenotype who'd been re-assigned as a MechWarrior.

Everything else pretty much comes down to justification after the fact; Marthe Pryde said the Clan air forces were no good, and we've been left to find reasons why. Bidding doesn't make sense as an explanation, since ground forces that aren't bid into battle, even for long periods of time don't lose their edge. Tactics also doesn't provide a reason, since there's no real operational difference between the Clans and the Sphere there either.

Ultimately, it is what it is, and we're stuck with it now.