No Clan Handbook

[joechummer]

If you want a Clan Handbook, then buy all Clan products that are available from CGL that you are missing, and all House Handbooks that you are missing. Some stuff, from the FASA and FanPro era is available in pdf, buy those too.
For increasing sales of Handbooks and Clan sources is the best way to convince CGL to produce more. Words on the forums are just words, sales are cold facts.

The problem with this is that the only current Clan product in DTF is Klondike, and I'm guessing most Clan fans already have it... although Wars of Reaving is slated to be published sometime this year.  The only Handbooks that CGL currently has in DTF is the Periphery one: Handbook Liao (at least for now) and all of the ones published during the FanPro days are only available from CGL in PDF form (and I already have the 3 FanPro ones in DTF).

Convincing 5 or even 20 people to buy something isn't going to be enough sales to convince anybody of anything.  There needs to be large volumes of sales -- and we're talking thousands or tens of thousands probably -- in order to influence any major changes in future products.

[Hawkeye Jim]

In order to get bigger sales, you have to give the potential buyers something they're interested in. It would seem that the more input you get, the easier it would be to determine that.

[joechummer]

I'm sure they gauged high consumer interest for the Handbook series, and that didn't pan out into actual sales.  Sometimes a surefire product just doesn't sell well for one reason or another.  I'm sure you've probably seen movies, played video games, or read books you thought were absolutely fantastic, but for some reason, they just aren't very popular.  You can't win em all.  Then there are people who want Product A but flip through it when it comes out, shrug, and then change their mind.

And like I said, it's hard to gauge ACTUAL interest if you only base your opinions on a small and skewed cross section of the fan population (i.e. the online/forum folks).  So there'd have to be a way for all of those offline/non-forum fans to have their opinion heard, and that just isn't feasible.  Even attending a convention and gauging interest there is still only going to get you the skewed opinion of fans who are dedicated enough to spend time and money on travel, badges, hotels, and such, which is again only a very small percentage of the whole.

[Toqtamish]

The other problem is its kind of a catch 22 situation. They site that the interest in Clan Handbook is low. And this may very well be true but how are people supposed to be interested in the Clans if they cannot get the books they need to learn about them and get excited about them. Interest being low is a self fulfilled prophecy as with next to none actual in print books about the Clans out there, there exists no jumping on point. WoK is by far my favorite sourcebook for BT and I am glad I own it but a reprint to make it more readily available or even a legally for sale pdf copy of it in the battleshop could help with this lack of interest in other Clan books if there was one there to help wet peoples appetites.

[roosterboy]

They site that the interest in Clan Handbook is low.

Sales, not interest. It's sales of the Handbook series as a whole that haven't been good enough to justify continuing the series beyond the six books we'll end up getting.

[Toqtamish]

Sales...interest. Interest drives the sales. And just because the others have suffered from lack of interest, and sales, does not mean a Clan one would have the same problem. I for one would skip all Inner Sphere stuff except maybe Liao but would for sure by a Clan book.

[Hawkeye Jim]

Then what they need is a campaign to increase interest. Perhaps something at the hobby and bookstore level.

[roosterboy]

Sales...interest. Interest drives the sales.

Not necessarily. High interest doesn't always translate into high sales.

[joechummer]

Not necessarily. High interest doesn't always translate into high sales.

Exactly.  High interest oftentimes translates into more people pirating a product they swore they'd pay for when it was announced.  What leeches like this don't realize is they're just killing what they claim to love.

But anyway, what I wonder is, do PDF sales factor into the equation, or do they mostly gauge by DTF sales?

[Toqtamish]

Okay I will modify what I said, high interest SHOULD translate into sales.

I'd be interested to see the comparison in pdf vs dtf sales.

[roosterboy]

Exactly.  High interest oftentimes translates into more people pirating a product they swore they'd pay for when it was announced.  What leeches like this don't realize is they're just killing what they claim to love.

Not really. That's only true if every pirated game book equals one lost sale. If the gaming industry is anything like the music industry or the TV/movie industry (and I see no reason to think it isn't), then that's simply not the case. Sure, some percentage of those people probably download in lieu of purchasing something they would have gotten legally if the internet and various filesharing methods didn't exist, but the majority of them would just have done without.

Piracy is a bogeyman, a convenient scapegoat for various executives and pundits to explain why profits are down. The truth of the matter is way more complex than the handy soundbites and alarmist garment rending would have us believe. Is it wrong to take something without paying for it? Sure. Is it killing any particular industry that so many people do just that online? Hardly.


Er, anyway, I guess this is veering off topic a bit much. The point is: High interest in a book means little if that interest doesn't translate into sales. Herb et al. have said that sales do not warrant continuing the Handbook series after the Kurita book finally comes out. I'm sure they don't make those decisions lightly and are likely to have a much better idea of the interest and potential sales of a book like Handbook: Clans or whatever than can be gleaned from these boards and the posts of disappointed Clan fans.

[Hawkeye Jim]

Not high interest in a particular book. They need to ramp up the interest in Battletech itself. The more people who are interested or reinterested in the game, the better chances for the sales to go up.

How many former customers are out there who's interest might be reclaimed?

[joechummer]

How many former customers are out there who's interest might be reclaimed?

Honestly, I was one of those.  I only got back into BT about 2 years ago.  I played a diehard Falcon back in the 90s and figured (with much dismay) that BT was dead when FASA closed its doors.  The FanPro stuff was a bit off my radar because I wasn't in the tabletop gaming scene at the time, I didn't really care about the Clix game until it was already on its deathbed, and I wasn't familiar with CGL's work on BT until GenCon a few years back.  The first CGL products I ever bought were Shadowrun 20th Anniversary edition and BattleTech: 25 Years of Art and Fiction.  My first CGL BT sourcebook was Historical: Operation KLONDIKE.  And I've nabbed a TON of stuff since, from CGL, FanPro and even old FASA-era products I missed back in high school.

So yeah, if it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone.  ;D

[joechummer]

Not really. That's only true if every pirated game book equals one lost sale. If the gaming industry is anything like the music industry or the TV/movie industry (and I see no reason to think it isn't), then that's simply not the case. Sure, some percentage of those people probably download in lieu of purchasing something they would have gotten legally if the internet and various filesharing methods didn't exist, but the majority of them would just have done without.

I must know an inordinately large percentage of terrible people, because most of the pirates I know never end up buying a legitimate copy of what they pirated. :o

[Toqtamish]

Honestly, I was one of those.  I only got back into BT about 2 years ago.  I played a diehard Falcon back in the 90s and figured (with much dismay) that BT was dead when FASA closed its doors.  The FanPro stuff was a bit off my radar because I wasn't in the tabletop gaming scene at the time, I didn't really care about the Clix game until it was already on its deathbed, and I wasn't familiar with CGL's work on BT until GenCon a few years back.  The first CGL products I ever bought were Shadowrun 20th Anniversary edition and BattleTech: 25 Years of Art and Fiction.  My first CGL BT sourcebook was Historical: Operation KLONDIKE.  And I've nabbed a TON of stuff since, from CGL, FanPro and even old FASA-era products I missed back in high school.

So yeah, if it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone.  ;D

Ditto. I first got into BT back in the 90s and my now ex wife bought me some books for it, FM Warden Clan, WoK and IS from Fasa. Then after I moved across the country I got hooked on the novels and I now own an entire shelf of BT paperbacks. I got huge into the Clix game and before it died I walked away. I still over the years dug out the novels. Couple years ago I bought the Total Warfare book, Dawn of Jihad, Jihad 3072 and jihad secrets. Never got into playing BT as honestly I find it a bit over whelming but now I am here again lol. I started reading my BT books again last month and dug out my old Clix collection and have it out and ready for use again. So who knows maybe try number 5 will actually get me playing the game but either way I love the setting and the universe and will gladly buy the Clan sourcebooks for their fluffy goodness if nothing else. Including if it were made, a Clan Handbook.

[roosterboy]

I must know an inordinately large percentage of terrible people, because most of the pirates I know never end up buying a legitimate copy of what they pirated. :o

I think maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not saying people who pirate tend to also buy a legit copy, though some do. In fact, I'm sure that most pirates never end up buying a legitimate copy of what they pirated.

No, what I'm saying is this: John Doe pirating Best Book Ever doesn't necessarily result in a lost sale for the publisher. If John Doe never would have bought the book anyway, the publisher didn't lose that sale when he decided to pirate it instead of legitimately buying a copy. That sale was never going to be theirs to begin with, so they didn't lose it.

So saying X product was pirated 100,000 times doesn't equate to 100,000 lost sales, it equates to some smaller—probably much, much smaller—number because the vast majority of the people who pirated it never would have bought it in the first place. You've basically got three kinds of people who pirate: 1) people who wouldn't buy it anyway, 2) people who pirate and also buy, and 3) people who decide to pirate instead of buying. Only the last results in lost sales. I have nothing really to back this up, but my gut and informal research (i.e., reading articles on the subject and personal experience) say that #1 comprises the largest number of illegal downloaders, with #3 and then #2 making up increasingly smaller percentages of the total.

[joechummer]

I think maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not saying people who pirate tend to also buy a legit copy, though some do. In fact, I'm sure that most pirates never end up buying a legitimate copy of what they pirated.

No, what I'm saying is this: John Doe pirating Best Book Ever doesn't necessarily result in a lost sale for the publisher. If John Doe never would have bought the book anyway, the publisher didn't lose that sale when he decided to pirate it instead of legitimately buying a copy. That sale was never going to be theirs to begin with, so they didn't lose it.

So saying X product was pirated 100,000 times doesn't equate to 100,000 lost sales, it equates to some smaller—probably much, much smaller—number because the vast majority of the people who pirated it never would have bought it in the first place. You've basically got three kinds of people who pirate: 1) people who wouldn't buy it anyway, 2) people who pirate and also buy, and 3) people who decide to pirate instead of buying. Only the last results in lost sales. I have nothing really to back this up, but my gut and informal research (i.e., reading articles on the subject and personal experience) say that #1 comprises the largest number of illegal downloaders, with #3 and then #2 making up increasingly smaller percentages of the total.

Oh wait: you're referring to the Neil Gaiman school of thought regarding pirating:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qkyt1wXNlI

I completely forgot about that.

I guess what I meant was it always bothers me when people pirate a digital product, say "Oh, I'll buy the physical product when it comes out," and then go back on their promise when said product hits the street.  That might not actually be a lost sale per se, but it certainly FEELS like one.

[GBscientist]

Perhaps another problem with the House Handbook series is the way they've dribbled out over the last 5 years, only to go out of print quite fast.  A new player trying to pick a favourite faction will almost certainly be met with disappointment that the Handbook covering his favourite has either gone out of print already, or hasn't been released yet.  If Catalyst had the resources to release all 6 books simultaneously, they might have done better, but I'm probably wrong.

[Fear Factory]

At least they give you the old books to download for free.

[Toqtamish]

True and it would be nice if they added some more stuff like that, maybe somewhat more recent books than those, even if from the Fasa days. Those particular House ones are very old now. Mid 80s I think is when they were released.

[joechummer]

True and it would be nice if they added some more stuff like that, maybe somewhat more recent books than those, even if from the Fasa days. Those particular House ones are very old now. Mid 80s I think is when they were released.

The reason they have the House books available for free on PDF are (at least as far as I am concerned):
--They got FASA and FanPro's blessings (this was mentioned in the CBT FAQ on the Download page)
--no House books were in print, and the Field Manual series only helps to a certain extent for those unfamiliar with specific factions
--Free stuff is the best way to A) get prospective players into a game and B) encourage future sales
--These are some of the oldest BattleTech fluff books published, and thus most -- if not all -- of their art would contain Unseens and need to be pulled.  And most people aren't likely to pay full price for a product they feel is only half finished.

[Toqtamish]

My point was more free stuff would be a good idea for books that we are not gonna see in print likely ever again, like Inner Sphere and Warriors of Kerensky.

[joechummer]

I'd really like to know why WoK isn't in PDF yet.

[ShockaTime]

I'd really like to know why WoK isn't in PDF yet.

hopefully they'll get around to it at some point, I'd definitely like a copy of this book O0

[Kit deSummersville]

I'd really like to know why WoK isn't in PDF yet.

Probably because we've been putting out a bunch of new stuff instead of old stuff. The layout guys are working their tails off.

[TigerShark]

Er, anyway, I guess this is veering off topic a bit much. The point is: High interest in a book means little if that interest doesn't translate into sales. Herb et al. have said that sales do not warrant continuing the Handbook series after the Kurita book finally comes out. I'm sure they don't make those decisions lightly and are likely to have a much better idea of the interest and potential sales of a book like Handbook: Clans or whatever than can be gleaned from these boards and the posts of disappointed Clan fans.

Is dividing up the factions into separate books generating more sales than a collective book like Field Manual: Updates?

[joechummer]

Probably because we've been putting out a bunch of new stuff instead of old stuff. The layout guys are working their tails off.

I thought maybe it was because the book was so rare, no one wanted to donate their copy to get sliced up so it could be scanned.

[Kit deSummersville]

I thought maybe it was because the book was so rare, no one wanted to donate their copy to get sliced up so it could be scanned.

Pfff, some sucker gave up a SLSB, WoK is child's play next to that sucker.

[worktroll]

I'd really like to know why WoK isn't in PDF yet.

I had a big description on the old forums, gone alas ...

Basically producing a saleable PDF requires a lot more work than you probably thought.

First, you have to find someone who'll let you slice their copy up into single pages for proper scanning. You can't get high-quality scans from bound books.

Second, once scanned, you need to OCR all the text. And then rpoof-read it. Then pruuf-read it. Then proof-read it again. Trust me, that's laborious. But this has to be done to make the PDF searchable. And it has to be done by someone you trust not to slip little 'extras' in there.

Then you need to go over the layout to determine whether the OCR'ed text fits back in the same space. And to make sure no Unseen art gets in. This is also non-trivial (there's a MechWarrior: Age of Destruction card featuring part of an Unseen Crusader ... shows even WK slipped up once in a while).

Then you need to make a high-res PDF of it.

All of the above takes time; and it needs to be done by the people who would otherwise be doing the same sort of work on regular new products. It's something I believe the CGL people are committed to doing, eventually, but there's a lot of OOP works and they still haven't weaned themselves off the need for food, and sleep ...  ;)

W.

[joechummer]

W, I wasn't accusing CGL of slacking, not by a long shot  ;D  It's just that we know pretty much what NEW PDF-only products are in the pipeline due to what's been announced, but I don't recall any big ado made (or even any real announcement at all, unless I somehow missed them all) about the release of a FASA-era PDF in the BattleShop.

I know a lot of work goes into making the old books available as PDFs, and we fans are grateful.  But it would be nice to know what old books are on the docket so that those people who missed them the first time around can start drooling in patient anticipation of their eventual release.