WarShip of the Week: Defender

[gyedid]

A better thought: Maybe the Dracs were targeting the Lion for destruction, and the Davions used that to their advantage. Get people focused on that one ship, draw them out in a pursuit, and when someone is so fixated that they see little else, slam 'em in the flank with Davvy IIs and Congrii. }:)

Sure, but in order for the Golden Lion to have lasted as long as it did, the Dracs would have to be missing consistently if they were going after it like you suggest.

And the whole jumping back and forth between jump points...how could it do that without LF batteries?

cheers,

Gabe

[Scotty]

Well, from what I'm reading in this thread, the battle lasted several weeks.  Last I knew, it didn't take several weeks for a warship to jump somewhere.

[Weirdo]

Sure, but in order for the Golden Lion to have lasted as long as it did, the Dracs would have to be missing consistently if they were going after it like you suggest.

That's not as odd as you'd think. Remember: the rules may call a particular range bracket Medium Range, but really, it's point-blank range. The Defender has more than enough thrust to make sure that most opponents don't get any closer than long range, and also has thrust to burn towards evasive maneuvers at the same time. Assuming you can keep enemy fighters and DropShips off of it using your own, finishing off a Defender that doesn't want to die can take a VERY long time. And you do have to hunt it down, because even if Davion's real strength is in their powerful midweight ships, a Defender that isn't kept under constant pressure can immediately swing around and gut just about anything the Kuritans have flying.

[Dragon Cat]

It helps the Davion cause that the Kuritans appear from what I remember of them to have a lighter fleet which could have contributed to the Defenders ability to live long enough to effect change

[Wrangler]

You know, i just notices something.  The Battle of Cholame was mentioned in the old House Davion (Federated Suns) source book, the source book (yeah, everything get retconned due to new sources) shows the battle for Cholame happened in 2790.  It says that the Golden Lion was under the command of Admiral Kenneth Jones, where it was tasked with task force enter Kurita occupied Davion worlds and resupply resistance.

When the task force enter Cholame, it was jumped by waiting Kurita forces which were not reported to be any in that system.

The Defender's fluff indicated that the Battle happened in 2787, it blunted attack not an ambush setted for Davions.  A battle that lasted six weeks in the original fluff, that grew over time.   Not a battle suddenly happened.    Is this a retcon?

[Cyc]

Coulda sworn I read somewhere that the 1SW was marked by large FWL naval victories on the Capellan front, that the Liao navy was largely decimated there. No notable battles mentioned, it was just a series of reversals across the entire front.

That would be the failed Devlin Solution mk 2 on Calloway VI in 2789. While none of the older House books or the newer Handbooks mention WarShips, all indicate the Capellan naval losses were staggering and that the loss of the cream of the Capellan navy meant that Marik WarShips could now easily brush aside Capellan naval blockades on numerous worlds.

As for the League and Lyran analogue of the Battle of Cholame, its likely the Third Battle of Hesperus II in 2789specifically mentioned as a bloody engagement that wrecked the fleets of both sides.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

While I don't doubt that fighters were important, I really have to figure out your logic. How did you go from 'Dracs weren't stupid, so the Defenders can't have killed all of them' to 'it was a carrier fight'? There has to have been more than a few mental steps between them.

Coulda sworn I read somewhere that the 1SW was marked by large FWL naval victories on the Capellan front, that the Liao navy was largely decimated there. No notable battles mentioned, it was just a series of reversals across the entire front.

Honestly I didn't perform those mental steps "in between". I just looked at what each side had and drew conclusions from it. Jinjiro was remarked as the genius behind the whole front-wide offensive on New Avalon. So his hand-picked underlings, especially the one who was given the task to ambush the Suns fleet at Cholame after preparations had been meticulously made there beforehand, wouldn't be stupid at all. Then looking at the known WarShip classes from each side, Samarkands and New Syrtises were very prominent, the former being lightweight enough to be mass-produced and the latter being the core of FSN fleet doctrine since the end of the Age of War. However, at this point I should add that the Hegemony ships purchased by both sides in unknown numbers are a potentially-major factor during this battle.

The FWLS Devastator was some kind of heavy capital ship(IIRC battlecruiser) bought from the Hegemony that ended up leading FWLN contingent in that brutal slugging match over Hesperus. Don't think the Hegemony ever sold their older BBs, but the Dracs could have a few Hegemony capital ships at Cholame too.

[sillybrit]

You know, i just notices something.  The Battle of Cholame was mentioned in the old House Davion (Federated Suns) source book, the source book (yeah, everything get retconned due to new sources) shows the battle for Cholame happened in 2790.  It says that the Golden Lion was under the command of Admiral Kenneth Jones, where it was tasked with task force enter Kurita occupied Davion worlds and resupply resistance.

When the task force enter Cholame, it was jumped by waiting Kurita forces which were not reported to be any in that system.

The Defender's fluff indicated that the Battle happened in 2787, it blunted attack not an ambush setted for Davions.  A battle that lasted six weeks in the original fluff, that grew over time.   Not a battle suddenly happened.    Is this a retcon?

Read again what the Defender fluff says: "The Defender-class FSS Golden Lion would even go on to earn lasting fame for its role in blunting the Draconis Combine’s 2787 advance against House Davion."

The Combine's attack on the Suns at the beginning of the 1st SW was a multi-year campaign that began in 2787. The above text doesn't say that Cholame occurs in 2787, it just notes the date the Combine's attack began. It's perhaps unclear, but the wording doesn't invalidate any prior sourcebook.

[gyedid]

The FWLS Devastator was some kind of heavy capital ship(IIRC battlecruiser) bought from the Hegemony that ended up leading FWLN contingent in that brutal slugging match over Hesperus. Don't think the Hegemony ever sold their older BBs, but the Dracs could have a few Hegemony capital ships at Cholame too.

My guess is that the Devastator is that Soyal they bought from the Capellans before the 1st SW erupted, the name obviously reflecting the hope they'd be able to put that mass driver to use against the Lyrans' Tharkads.

Seriously, I don't think the Terrans ever considered selling anything over 800K tons to the other states--they would rather see their Monsoons and Farraguts go to the breakers than end up in other fleets.

cheers,

Gabe

[Wrangler]

My guess is that the Devastator is that Soyal they bought from the Capellans before the 1st SW erupted, the name obviously reflecting the hope they'd be able to put that mass driver to use against the Lyrans' Tharkads.

Seriously, I don't think the Terrans ever considered selling anything over 800K tons to the other states--they would rather see their Monsoons and Farraguts go to the breakers than end up in other fleets.

cheers,

Gabe

Thats true so far, the fluff of the Monsoons were kept in service as along as possible because of generations of crews serving and going on to become commanders of the fleet.  Class of ship with that much pride would be scrapped before they sold them to anyone else i would imagine. 

I sadly think because the limitation on what is being made. In other words, that any heavy beaters ships that were looming in the fleets of the soon to be Succession States will be existing designs verse additional new museum quality designs (aka 1st generation WarShips) were getting in the Field Reports 2765.   I don't remember reading if any of the Star League Navy had defectors who hadn't responded to the call to join Kerensky's Exodus fleet.   There must been some, the the state's fleets couldn't be all 2nd-stringer Terran caste off they built or units that were in mothballs for the entire time.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I was just going to ask that: I imagine there had to be at least a few WarShips that didn't go on the Exodus (though I'd imagine that the larger, more powerful ships would be more likely to have command staffs Kerensky trusted), do we have any information suggesting that any of the Successor States had ex-SLDF WarShips in their armadas?

[BrokenMnemonic]

The Devastator might have simply been another Black Lion I, like the Confederation's Typhon.

[Weirdo]

Maybe, except we know for a fact that the FWL doesn't have any BL1s as of 2765, and given how old those ships are, I don't see anyone building new ones or choosing NOW to dust off any that weren't sold off earlier.

I'm leaning towards Devastator being the Soyal, or possibly A-K's thoughts about SLDF ships. Such a situation is the likeliest explanation for LCS Nightwind, for example.

[BrokenMnemonic]

Some of the FR: 2765 series have talked about the various Great Houses digging WarShips out of mothballs as a part of their various rearmament programmes - with all those Atreus-class ships floating around, I can see the FWL buying one or more Black Lion Is and then later deciding to mothball them in favour of their Atreus fleet, only to dig them out later as things escalated.

[Weirdo]

Okay, that's not a bad idea at all. Don't really see any other house doing that(Unless FR: LCAF gives 'em as many Tharkads as the Mariks got Atreii), but for the League, that's a pretty plausible idea. More foresight than you tend to expect from House Lords, but it happens every so often. Stopped clocks and all that.

[gyedid]

To try and get this slightly back on topic...how many Defenders did the FSN lose in Case Amber?  Are the two listed in FR:2765 FS the last two left in existence at that time?  No more hiding in mothballs?

cheers,

Gabe

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Zero. Because they didn't field any Defenders as per the ORBAT section of the book.

[Weirdo]

Correct. Either the Defenders were among the few FSN ships that did not participate in Case AMBER, or they were still in mothballs at that point and were only reactivated when the Davvys needed more ships to keep up their end of the war. I'm leaning towards the latter, myself.

[BrokenMnemonic]

Okay, that's not a bad idea at all. Don't really see any other house doing that(Unless FR: LCAF gives 'em as many Tharkads as the Mariks got Atreii), but for the League, that's a pretty plausible idea. More foresight than you tend to expect from House Lords, but it happens every so often. Stopped clocks and all that.

I've just got home and checked the Black Lion I entry, and it talks about most of the original Black Lion Is going into mothballs, being sold to the Great Houses before the Reunification War, then going back into mothballs during the Golden Age, although most were stripped down. We've only got one active Black Lion I as of 2765 so far, and I'm entirely biased - I'd like to see more of them flying around ;)

I wonder how Black Lion Is would perform against Defenders...

[Weirdo]

...then going back into mothballs during the Golden Age...

Okay, I guess it's plausible, though I doubt the SL would be selling off even stripped-down hulls once the Amaris crisis began, to say nothing of the leadup to Exodus. Once the Hegemony Shopping Spree that was the 1st Succession War began I guess they could try to grab some, though taking the time to refit those things back up to combat status in the middle of *that* firestorm seems...chancy.

Honestly, I'd more expect those hulls to end up in RWRN hands. Can't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure they did indeed grab a lot of ships like that and put them into service against the SLN.

I wonder how Black Lion Is would perform against Defenders...

Hmm...that's a really good question, actually. Armor is roughly similar, though the Black Lion has a big edge in SI. Black Lion also has the edge in raw firepower, though the Defender can more easily concentrate heavy bays due to its fire arc layout. I'm going to give the Black Lion the advantage due to the fact that its secondary guns also reach Capital Long and because of the solid missile armament, but it's only a slim margin. The Defender's raw speed lets it close the range gap quickly, and the armor levels of both ships are such that you only need to score one or two more hits than the other guy before his ship is in MUCH worse shape than yours. This would actually be a really interesting fight to game out.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Okay, I guess it's plausible, though I doubt the SL would be selling off even stripped-down hulls once the Amaris crisis began, to say nothing of the leadup to Exodus. Once the Hegemony Shopping Spree that was the 1st Succession War began I guess they could try to grab some, though taking the time to refit those things back up to combat status in the middle of *that* firestorm seems...chancy.

Honestly, I'd more expect those hulls to end up in RWRN hands. Can't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure they did indeed grab a lot of ships like that and put them into service against the SLN.

It was mentioned in Liberation of Terra I in the RWRN fleet breakdown. They bought a lot of hulls from Dick, then absorbed the reserve fleet and mothballs in the Hegemony to replace their Coup losses.

It is highly probable that the Houses salvaged some hulls from both combatants during the Liberation right up till 1st SW. They had "foraging teams" on the ground, makes sense to have such teams in space too. There were also a lot of Newgranges during that time period, and such derelicts was how the FWLN, WoB and C* got their head-start in fleet-building

[Weirdo]

It was mentioned in Liberation of Terra I in the RWRN fleet breakdown. They bought a lot of hulls from Dick, then absorbed the reserve fleet and mothballs in the Hegemony to replace their Coup losses.

There we go. While I doubt we'll see the kind fo detailed fleet breakdowns we have for the Houses in the RWR's part of FR: Periphery, we can at least hope of a list of present classes, and if we do I definitely expect to see the BL1 on that list.

[BrokenMnemonic]

Okay, I guess it's plausible, though I doubt the SL would be selling off even stripped-down hulls once the Amaris crisis began, to say nothing of the leadup to Exodus. Once the Hegemony Shopping Spree that was the 1st Succession War began I guess they could try to grab some, though taking the time to refit those things back up to combat status in the middle of *that* firestorm seems...chancy.

Just to clarify, as I was being a bit muddy in my previous comments - from FR 2765: CCAF, it was the Great Houses who put the Black Lion Is they'd bought into mothballs while they "streamlined and modernized" their fleets.

Hmm...that's a really good question, actually. Armor is roughly similar, though the Black Lion has a big edge in SI. Black Lion also has the edge in raw firepower, though the Defender can more easily concentrate heavy bays due to its fire arc layout. I'm going to give the Black Lion the advantage due to the fact that its secondary guns also reach Capital Long and because of the solid missile armament, but it's only a slim margin. The Defender's raw speed lets it close the range gap quickly, and the armor levels of both ships are such that you only need to score one or two more hits than the other guy before his ship is in MUCH worse shape than yours. This would actually be a really interesting fight to game out.

You know you want to play it out. Go on, succumb to the dark side... and post a report or two  O0

[Weirdo]

You think playing out a space game is 'succumbing' for me? :)



Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to play it at work! >:D

[Giovanni Blasini]

I'd be tempted to game this out with someone...then I realize I haven't played in two years. At least.

[Wrangler]

Given that aside from the name and faction who were built them, 1st generation ships at time of Historical: Reunification War properly wasn't even stated out.  Thus why, mention a unstated and unpublished design in a sourcebook?

I like the idea of them being reactivated near the end of the War, given that Taurian's fleet was playing hit-and-run games due to their dimenished numbers i don't know if they even bothered at that point.  SLDF's fleet was properly doing most of the leg work.

There another factor to consider.  We don't know how may WarShips exisited during that time period.  We know basically the design that existed, but thats it.   Given way the fluff of the newly released 1st gen WarShips suggest, the Great Houses properly didn't have as many as we would like.   Davys had a Civil War prior to the confict, its possible one or more of the six Defenders was lost in that conflict.  Specially they didn't have some of their more advance designs.  Lessons of the Civil War lead to the Davion Block II ships, which suggests in my mind that Davion Is and properly the Defenders were involved with that conflict.   

[BrokenMnemonic]

Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to play it at work! >:D

I have visions of you at your desk, whittling models for the WarShips out of soap stolen from the mens' room...

[Weirdo]

I'd take you up on that, except that we use liquid soap around here. :-[

On the other hand, I'm stuck at work with nothing to do but be here 'just in case' in a mostly empty office for 12 hours, and I don't even think my boss is likely to show up. Brought a hex map, and I keep dice here at all times anyway. I just might get some productive use out of this day after all... >:D

[BrokenMnemonic]

Exxxxcellent.

Now, what can I do to convince you to write a Historical Turning Point: Kentares supplement, detailing the various battles for control of Kentares between the Terran Hegemony and the Federated Suns during the Age of War? After all, there must've been Defenders and other FedSuns WarShips squaring off against Hegemony WarShips then...

[ArkRoyalRavager]

I doubt that. Kentares seemed more like ground slugging matches.