Clan Nova Cat - Zombie Catgirl Extravaganza

[tassa_kay]

Not a completely correct example, since Steel Vipers played a major role throughout the Wars of Reaving. And their annihilation is the endgame of this book.

The example is perfectly correct, because the rest of the Wars of Reaving had nothing to do with the Vipers' Annihilation, nor was that particular story thread so much as hinted at until those last two pages, when the Adders turned on the Vipers out of left field.

In all recent books Tarunaga  and Yori does not remember about the destruction of Cats Apparently, this is an insignificant episode of their life.

I don't think it's particularly fair or justified to say that the destruction of the Nova Cats was "insignificant" simply because it's not talked about in the whole one novel that we've seen Yori and Toranaga in post-destruction. That novel takes place years after the destruction and the events of the novel have absolutely nothing to do with the Nova Cats, so why would they come up in the first place?

Besides, they're Dracs. Wiping out a rebellious minority that they never really wanted in the first place isn't exactly something either of them is going to clutch their pearls about.

[Rncavenger]

The example is perfectly correct, because the rest of the Wars of Reaving had nothing to do with the Vipers' Annihilation, nor was that particular story thread so much as hinted at until those last two pages, when the Adders turned on the Vipers out of left field.

We see the development of the whole story. And these two pages are in fact dedicated to the description of one battle. The last battle for Iriсе at the time of the release of Era Report took 4-5 lines or so.

I don't think it's particularly fair or justified to say that the destruction of the Nova Cats was "insignificant" simply because it's not talked about in the whole one novel that we've seen Yori and Toranaga in post-destruction. That novel takes place years after the destruction and the events of the novel have absolutely nothing to do with the Nova Cats, so why would they come up in the first place?

While I was editing my previous post, so that it would be clearer, you have already answered :) You're right. There are no reasons. Except for one. There is a moment in the book when Torunaga thinks about the achievements in his life. And there he remembers that before the victory over the Davions, his most significant achievement was hunting bandits on the borders. Seriously? There was nothing else? Considering that for Cats Torunaga is the main villain responsible for the genocide and fans were hoping for some kind of revenge on this character. And he did not even occasionally remember about some Cats before his death.

[tassa_kay]

You're right. There are no reasons. Except for one. There is a moment in the book when Torunaga thinks about the achievements in his life. And there he remembers that before the victory over the Davions, his most significant achievement was hunting bandits on the borders. Seriously? There was nothing else? Considering that for Cats Torunaga is the main villain responsible for the genocide and fans were hoping for some kind of revenge on this character. And he did not even occasionally remember about some Cats before his death.

Just because Toranaga was the "main villain" for the Cats regarding their destruction doesn't obligate him to feel as strongly about the Cats in return.

As far as fans wanting revenge goes, well, that's on the fans for having unrealistic expectations. But I suppose being a Nova Cat fan for the last 25 years of publication requires a certain amount of masochism. Believe me, as a Blood Spirit fan, I get it.  ;D

[cmerwin]

I've been thinking for a while about the Nova Cats in Forever Faithful. Not just Inanna, but also Star Captain Clifford Keating and Antony Oberg (assume he's a Star Captain). Inanna tells Trent that he will serve in the Khan's Star, and Keating says that they serve in the Keshik (Keating says he commands a Binary). First, are we to assume that Inanna was also part of the Keshik?


Second, who all fought the Great Refusal? I assume - but it's not clear - that saKhan Carn's lead the Binary, then we have Keating, Oberg, Trent , and others. What's weird is that Invading Clans names 4 Star Captains in the Nova Cat Keshik, none of whom are either Keating or Oberg (and the only Binary is Echo).


I've been on a kick to paint minis for all of the major Nova Cat engagements, including the Great Refusal, so I wanted to get the details as straight as possible. Also, does anyone know if the Keshik's camo schemes are mentioned anywhere?

[Crimson Dynamo]

I've read before that Forever Faithful's author is pretty known for disregarding such details (if he even knew they existed) in favor of his own narratives. I wouldn't read too much into the naming disparities. Plus, Invading Clans is set a few years before the Great Refusal, plenty of time for some turnover in an elite Invading Clan unit.

[tassa_kay]

I've read before that Forever Faithful's author is pretty known for disregarding such details (if he even knew they existed) in favor of his own narratives. I wouldn't read too much into the naming disparities. Plus, Invading Clans is set a few years before the Great Refusal, plenty of time for some turnover in an elite Invading Clan unit.

Exactly. All of these things were written in the FASA days; you kinda have to just allow for a bit of wiggle room because things simply won't line up perfectly or consistently. Clan Smoke Jaguar itself is one of the most egregious examples of that fact.

[cmerwin]

Exactly. All of these things were written in the FASA days; you kinda have to just allow for a bit of wiggle room because things simply won't line up perfectly or consistently. Clan Smoke Jaguar itself is one of the most egregious examples of that fact.

Yeah, I had also thought that it was possible in the case of Echo Binary that someone might have been promoted or died at Tukayyid.


I definitely remember the Smoke Jaguar stuff being wonky and inconsistent. The Luthien sourcebook reads like a train wreck. I would LOVE for a remake of that book, but it's not going to happen.

[Rncavenger]

BLP is not the only one who uses random and unrelated to the previous sources characters. When I looked at the list of commanders of Spirit cats in the ER: Dark Age, I had only one question: who are all these people? Was it really impossible to put someone named from famous characters? There are a lot of them thanks to clixgame.  And another question of the same type: Calvin Rosse or Kalvin Rosse? Or are they two different characters one after the other commanding the same cluster?

[Spirit Cat Refugee]

BLP is not the only one who uses random and unrelated to the previous sources characters. When I looked at the list of commanders of Spirit cats in the ER: Dark Age, I had only one question: who are all these people? Was it really impossible to put someone named from famous characters? There are a lot of them thanks to clixgame.  And another question of the same type: Calvin Rosse or Kalvin Rosse? Or are they two different characters one after the other commanding the same cluster?

Yeah, I remember when I first got my hands on ER:DA I was floored that all of the cluster (not to mention regimental) commanders of all the splinter factions weren't... just the clix people already available. Seemed like a wasted opportunity, especially since some of the dossiers even said the characters were the commanders of their units (Caden Senn for First Kearny Highlanders, Angus Drummond for Purifiers). Shrapnel has done a good job here and there using clix characters. I figured CGL at the time just didn't want to be bothered to rifle through the dossiers.

[cmerwin]

I was thinking recently about Minoru Nova Cat and the office of Oathmaster, especially after our Abjuration. In Invading Clans, the saKhan and Oathmaster are listed as the CO and Aide for Alpha Galaxy. The saKhan as CO of Alpha kinda makes sense, Alpha is the pride of the Nova Cats, so having the saKhan as its Commander is a nice symbolic gesture. What surprised me was Oathmaster Winters as the Aide, because I assumed she would actually be part of the Nova Cat Keshik and Aide to the Khan, or at least on the Khan's immediate staff.


Does anyone know of an Oathmaster as part of a different Nova Cat unit than Alpha Galaxy?

[parable]

Does anyone know of an Oathmaster as part of a different Nova Cat unit than Alpha Galaxy?

 

FM: ComStar has saKhan and Oathmaster respectively as CO and Aide to the Shiva Keshik, which is part of Delta Galaxy.  It also says that "the Oathmaster always holds the position of XO" in the Keshik's description, so I'd wager that some time between the Clan Invasion and the Nova Cats' abjuration, they restructured how the Keshiks were organized.  I'm guessing losing both Khan and saKhan at the same time during the Great Refusal prompted this choice, so now the Khan leads the Novacat (or Novastar) Keshik, and the saKhan leads the Shiva Keshik.  The latter is only in Delta Galaxy because, upon being made saKhan, Karl Devalis requested that he remain in Delta Galaxy, and it remained that way.  Long story short: yes, the Oathmaster has been part of other galaxies, their combat role is as part of whatever Galaxy the saKhan's Keshik is part of. 

As for your earlier question about camouflage patterns, I don't remember ever reading about specific Nova Cat camouflage schemes...or even the fact that they are camouflaged at all.  Santin West's Elemental unit in one of the Twilight of the Clans novels was painted uniformly gloss black, and I browsed through Path of Glory again and found no mention of Ebony Dragon's color...the cover has it in tan, but covers, especially for SF works, are notoriously inaccurate.

Just for fun, I looked through the pilot cards from the Clan Invasion sets for any non-Xi or Alpha Nova Cats, and there's a mottled green Horned Owl, a treeline camo Stormcrow, a Dire Wolf and a Hellbringer in what looks like a cross between the British MPT and US Woodland BDU, and finally a Huntsman in something similar to a German Tropentarn.  I'm assuming from this that most commands paint their 'Mechs for the biome at hand, with each warrior allowed leeway for customization based on their rank and the permissiveness of their commanding officer.

[Istal_Devalis]

Official Canon is the Nova Cats always use appropriate camo for the terrain they're in (Except for Alpha and Xi). They dont really go into detail about what counts as 'appropriate camo'.

Semi canon is the DA color scheme - White, gold cockpits, charcoal grey weapons/joints, and red hilight panels. Never gets mentioned, but it shows up in artwork outside of MWDA figs.

[Wrangler]

Does the Clan Protectorate have camo for their clusters? Spirit Cats changed little bit since making Marik their home.

[Gaiiten]

For the Nova Cats it would have been better choice if they had not betrayed the Clans. Since then they had been on a steady down spiral.

[parable]

For the Nova Cats it would have been better choice if they had not betrayed the Clans. Since then they had been on a steady down spiral.

The Clans betrayed us.  All they ever talked about was "bring back the glory of the Star League," but when the Successor States reformed the Star League in the face of an impossible threat, it was deemed not good enough, not a 'real' Star League.  Only we had the understanding and vision that the Crusader Clans had become the new Amaris, and that an imperfect and attainable solution is better than no solution at all.  Our real mistake was trusting the Draconis Combine to see us as a sovereign people within their empire, rather than a skilled military force that threatens their power structure.

But had we stayed with the other Clans, would we have done much better?  Smoke Jaguar, Fire Mandrill, Ice Hellion, and Steel Viper have all been annihilated.  Hell's Horses are doing well, but they prove my point regarding the Nova Cat defection to the Star League: Alaric Ward's ilClan Star League is not their vision of what the Star League should be, so they refuse to acknowledge it.  Diamond Shark is doing well, though to call them a Clan at this point requires an asterisk.  Our longtime rivals for 'best marksmen' the Goliath Scorpions, and our sometime allies the Snow Ravens have middling holdings in the Periphery.  Ghost Bear is fully integrated into the Rasalhague Dominion--their loathing of us notwithstanding, their path is what we hoped for.  Wolf is spread dangerously thin, with a nigh-impossible mandate, and Jade Falcon?  Better to die out than have their record of war crimes and current position as praetorian guard for their 'betters.'

No, our mistake was simply believing that a culture that regards honor in battle highly would automatically be amenable to us.  Clan Nova Cat lived and died making the right choice, no matter what anyone else has to say about it.

[cmerwin]

No, our mistake was simply believing that a culture that regards honor in battle highly would automatically be amenable to us.  Clan Nova Cat lived and died making the right choice, no matter what anyone else has to say about it.

:thumbsup:

[Dragon Cat]

For the Nova Cats it would have been better choice if they had not betrayed the Clans. Since then they had been on a steady down spiral.

6 and 2-3s I reckon if they'd stood by the Clans and the Jaguars they could have lost their entire invasion force opening themselves to being absorbed

Alternatively it may have made the Inner Sphere target the Falcons instead of two Clans, unfortunately the Falcons are a bigger name

[Istal_Devalis]

Frankly, I think the Nova Cats would have been written out no matter who they sided with. I dont think we would have fared any better then some of the other destroyed clans during the Reaving.

[Gaiiten]

Frankly, I think the Nova Cats would have been written out no matter who they sided with. I dont think we would have fared any better then some of the other destroyed clans during the Reaving.

I do not think that the WoR would have happened if the Nova Cats had not betrayed the other Clans.

[tassa_kay]

I do not think that the WoR would have happened if the Nova Cats had not betrayed the other Clans.

Yes they would have. That conflict was inevitable the moment Operation Revival was greenlit.

[wantec]

At the bare minimum once the Steel Vipers were kicked out of the IS, the hurt feelings began the in-universe march to the WoR. Why accept that you weren't good enough to hold on to IS worlds when you can blame the IS clans of having cooties AND use it as a way to get the rest of the snubbed IS clans on your side?

If the Nova Cats had held on to an occupation zone like the Falcons, Wolves, & Bears and the rest of it progressed as normal, there'd probably just be a Council of 7 Clans instead of 6.

[Gaiiten]

At the bare minimum once the Steel Vipers were kicked out of the IS, the hurt feelings began the in-universe march to the WoR. Why accept that you weren't good enough to hold on to IS worlds when you can blame the IS clans of having cooties AND use it as a way to get the rest of the snubbed IS clans on your side?

Would there have been a Refusal War if the Nova Cats had not betrayed their fellow Clans? The Star League would have probably take on the Jade Falcons instead of the Jaguars. There would have been no expulsion of the Vipers from the Inner Sphere then.

[tassa_kay]

Would there have been a Refusal War if the Nova Cats had not betrayed their fellow Clans?

Yes, because the Refusal War happened before the Nova Cats were betrayed by the other Clans.

[Gaiiten]

Yes, because the Refusal War happened before the Nova Cats were betrayed by the other Clans.

My mistake, I meant the Hegira War (Falcons versus Vipers).

[WONC]

At the bare minimum once the Steel Vipers were kicked out of the IS, the hurt feelings began the in-universe march to the WoR. Why accept that you weren't good enough to hold on to IS worlds when you can blame the IS clans of having cooties AND use it as a way to get the rest of the snubbed IS clans on your side?

As an aside, there's a lot that could be said about Brett Andrews being a total dink even before the Reaving Wars and just how susceptible Perigard Zalman was to being goaded into actions by those around him, ie. ex-Khan Natalie Breen, the aforementioned future Bloody-ilKhan Andrews, etc. However, this is a Nova Cat thread and I will digress.

The Viper in me just needed to say it out loud. Just one time.  :(

[tassa_kay]

Still would've had the same net result. There's no reason to think the Jaguars wouldn't have still ended up on the chopping block even without the Nova Cats being Abjured (far more likely that the Cats would've gotten their own clocks cleaned in the process just being in the middle of all of that), and the Vipers still would've gotten themselves kicked out of the Inner Sphere. I don't see how the Cats not being betrayed would've prevented the Wars of Reaving. That war was going to happen one way or the other.

[wantec]

I think the IS powers would still have targeted the Jaguars. Some of the reasons given were the Jaguars orbital bombing of Turtle Bay on Edo and the fact that many considered the Jaguars the strongest and most brutal.

Now the Nova Cats may not have been targeted in their OZ simply so the IS wouldn't open up a 2nd battlefront. Later on after the Great Refusal the Combine on its own may have decided to go after the Nova Cats and pick off some worlds.

[Istal_Devalis]

Well, one of the reasons the Jags were chosen to be the target was that nobody liked them AND the DC had already began talks with the Cats anyways. It possible the IS may have chosen a different clan, but I think they probably would have still gone after the Jags because...well. Again, NO ONE liked them. The cats would have been caught in the middle, and likely compounded the issues as they take the chance to snipe at the Jags. At best it would be a mutual 'both sides looking the other way' but that leaves them in a bit of precarious situation once the Jags get kicked out.

I dont see them surviving in the IS from that. Which leads to them returning to the IS like the Vipers did. And then Reavings happen. Because that had a lot more to do with Homeworld vs Invasion Clan sentiment, and the Cats are "Corrupted'. Heroic Cat last stand, Clan Reaving version to follow. At a guess the survivors going to the Cobras, Sharks, and MAYBE the Ravens depending on how the warship fleet goes.

[WONC]

I dont see them surviving in the IS from that. Which leads to them returning to the IS like the Vipers did. And then Reavings happen. Because that had a lot more to do with Homeworld vs Invasion Clan sentiment, and the Cats are "Corrupted'. Heroic Cat last stand, Clan Reaving version to follow. At a guess the survivors going to the Cobras, Sharks, and MAYBE the Ravens depending on how the warship fleet goes.

Actually that's an interesting idea to follow: what if the Cats didn't engage with the Star League against the Jags but were ejected afterwards? Assuming that history plays out the same way as it does in other respects, that leaves two "failed" invading Clans in the Homeworlds, both with big, battle hardened toumans. The Vipers may not have been able to cause as much havoc, what with there being a bigger (the Cats having, historically, one of the bigger militaries pre-Abjuration) Clan possibly feeling the same pangs of disaffected rage but without the humiliation the Vipers endured. Yes, the Reavings (or something similar in nature; Clan society (natch) was at a breaking point in the 3060s) would still occur after a fashion, but to what extent? Would the Adders have been able to ride the waves so masterfully? Would Garrett Sainze have been elected ilKhan if Khan Leroux or West was in the Grand Council to voice a counterpoint or even just another vote in favor of the Adders?

I know it's a lot of imagining and speculating, but it's an interesting venue to mentally check out. Would the Cats have survived? As Istal said, I'm not sure they would. Every vision they had told them that change and violence were coming, which led them to side with the Inner Sphere. At best, perhaps we'd see a rump nation formed from abjured Cat survivors, a la the Imperio, or perhaps a heavily reaved group of survivors made up of those forces that never deployed to the Inner Sphere. At worst? Well, you can't kill what's already dead, so I won't go there.

[Spirit Cat Refugee]

So I got my hands on the Battle of Tukayyid short story anthology, how do you all feel about the reveal about Khan Lereox and that essentially the entire Clan Nova Cat campaign was sabotaged by him?