State of Battle Armor in the Inner Sphere: 3145

[MarauderD]

I was just curious to see what people thought of the current state of Battle Armor in the Inner Sphere? Who do you think has the best stable of suits? Who is falling behind? What is your favorite design? What design do you think is overrated, etc?

For me, I think the CCAF (and therefore Canopians) are the current top dog in the field of Battle Armor. Here is why:

1. The Amazon is the new Michael Jordan standard by which to judge IS BA. Fantastic suit.
2. Ying Long has mimetic armor and the Plasma Rifle, which just eats infantry and BA for lunch.
3. The new Shen Long has firepower rivaling the Grenadier, but with mobility to boot. Gorgeous artwork too IMO.

What do you all think?

[snewsom2997]

Black Wolf, with Cardinal VTOL or Tyr IFV.

[martian]

Here are BAs that I think are being produced in the new Free Worlds League:
Battle Armor produced in the new FWL

Kopis with its Medium Lasers is a great thing, especially useful as an area denial instrument. Range of its weapons means that it can't be ignored.

Phalanx-D is a great ambusher. Deploy it somewhere where you expect that enemy will try to hide or camp.

Longinus is an old suit, usable in defensive roles. It's unfortunate that it can jump only after it fires its SRMs.

I consider Achileus (and imported Quirinus) to be more useful with their TAGs than in purely combat role.

Leonidas is similar case, as for me its Angel ECM field and TAG is often more useful than their weapons.

Xiphos is very durable, but perhaps at the expense of its firepower.

[False Son]

I was just curious to see what people thought of the current state of Battle Armor in the Inner Sphere?

It is awesome.  New ideas and new technologies makes this the most interesting era for BA yet.

Who do you think has the best stable of suits?

The RAF.  They lost a good thing in Irian, though.  The Quirinus, Simian and Taranis are all pretty swank.  But, let's not forget they have Purifiers and Angeronas to fall back on.  Somewhere there is also the Purifier (Terra) factory making a few suits for the RAF Special Forces.  I haven't had a chance to use the Centaur yet, and the value of BA artillery doesn't jump out at me.  But, it can mechanize and provide close in direct fire artillery on the cheap.  The emphasis seems to be on flexibility from what I can tell.  As a fan of that perspective I dig the RAF suits.

Close second would be the DCMS.  The selection of armor is amazing.  The use of reflective armor is really powerful when the clans and clan laser using AFFS are your primary enemies.  They have mostly abandoned the assault BA concept and stuck with lighter suits.  Even the Zou, which is a pocket assault is meant to mechanize.  Seeing the DCMS's traditional emphasis on speed expressed in their armor philosophy is very satisfying.  They still have the Void, which is one of the most powerful BA ever built by the Inner Sphere, and the Raiden AI and Raiden II are good upgrades.

Who is falling behind?

The AFFS.  They peaked with the Grenadier.  The Sea Fox and Fusilier are interesting, which is always an appreciated quality.  But, overall, yeah, I see them losing their edge.  The Infiltrator MkII hasn't aged very well, for that matter.

What is your favorite design?

Kisho or Quirnus.  They both fall squarely into the interesting category while still being powerful.

What design do you think is overrated, etc?

The Cuchulain.  It isn't terrible, but the perception is that it is the greatest thing ever.

I'll tell you what is the most underrated these days: the Sloth.  It just keeps getting better and better.

For me, I think the CCAF (and therefore Canopians) are the current top dog in the field of Battle Armor. Here is why:

1. The Amazon is the new Michael Jordan standard by which to judge IS BA. Fantastic suit.

I guess so.  But, to me, it is just an improvement over what came before.  It doesn't even do anything unique.  The old Trinity suits could at least claim to be MRR touting 3 ground MP city fighters.  The Amazon is a slight improvement over the IS Standard with LRR.  The biggest bonus, however, is having an arm mounted weapon in the offhand chance you want to swarm something.  It's good, but I don't know... not all that impressive.

2. Ying Long has mimetic armor and the Plasma Rifle, which just eats infantry and BA for lunch.

Yeah, that's not a bad suit.  It and the Phalanx got a big hand up with their weapon changes.

3. The new Shen Long has firepower rivaling the Grenadier, but with mobility to boot. Gorgeous artwork too IMO.

It reminds me of a Fenrir 1.5 for some reason.


Only the FWLM and AFFS fall into meh territory for me.  All other players have a really impressive stable of battle armors.  If we want to talk about the clans, who is using the Elemental II?  They pretty much wins hands down thanks to the power of the BA myomer booster.  After that, the Falcons, because the Ironhold is patently ridiculous.

[martian]

After that, the Falcons, because the Ironhold is patently ridiculous.

Too good?

[False Son]

Oh yes.  A real terror.  Especially the Fire variant.  4 APGRs.

[Colt Ward]

Well, the Elemental APGR is the new flavor of the gold standard.

The Amazon has taken the prize for the closest the IS can get to that standard.

IMO, the Ogre takes the cake for fun fluff- BA Boxing!  I am just waiting for EA Games to release the 3146 season.

I have not gotten to use much, not too many 3145 battles under my belt but I am looking forward to trying some of it because the options have opened up so much since the Elemental trio debuted.

[False Son]

Well, the Elemental APGR is the new flavor of the gold standard.

Yes, i'd even go so far as to say the Falcon's Fire-Resistant APGR Elemental is the real gold standard.  It is one of the reasons I put the Falcons at the top of the clan game.  The Afreet isn't bad, either.  Not as good as the APGR Elementals, mind you, but good.  The Inner Sphere would surely weep to get something that good.  The Void comes close, but even the Mag Shot version isn't in the same area of awesome that is the APGR.  Accept no substitute.

[wellspring]

The Choo-choolainn is a great suit IMO, not over-rated at all. It's a solid improvement over the Corona, which I loved. Don't get me wrong, you do have to use it correctly. It's a piece of a puzzle, but a great piece for its role.

Sadly, we don't see the stock Salamander much anymore, which I think is unfortunate because it's the one medium design that really challenged the standard Elemental as a do-everything utility infielder. Hell, even the Elemental isn't seen as much these days, if for no other reason because it's being crowded out by all the other designs. It's a shame, because both designs are excellent.

Overrated? Easy, though you'll all hate me for saying it. The proliferation of assault suits, especially in the IS. Slow on their own, a PITA to transport, incapable of riding omnimechs-- I really just don't get it when it comes to assault BA.

The overall state of BA in the IS is good, though. Stealth and new little doohickies and doodads to put on your suits, plus especially new armor concepts like reflective and reactive. Some interesting innovations from the Capellans, of all people, but lots of good designs coming from the Draconis Combine.

One thing I'd like to see is some kind of innovation to improve the utility of Light suits. Right now, (and more or less quoting SillyBrit) there's no Light design I can think of that can't be improved by making it Medium.

[Colt Ward]

The only reason I can think of for using lights comes from strategic reasons- transport mass using the optional rule, perhaps easier to don during emergencies or scrambles, easier to get through buildings/forts/ships, and of course cheaper/faster to build (as if that mattered in BT).

[False Son]

It depends on what you are going for.  The limitations of mass are also limitations on BV.  If all I want is a 4 jump leg capper the GD Scout does that at a very low BV.  Heck, it even brings an AP weapon if I want to swarm.  The free TAC has the same chance as any other weapon of punching through.

[Diamondshark]

The Cuchulainn isn't an omni-purpose battle armor, but if it can enter its niche in a battle, most battlemechs are in danger. The unit is slow, and a sitting duck for artillery, but if you can dig in inside woods, or get inside a building, then you will be nigh-unhittable, and able to dish out remarkable damage with respectable accuracy. The big issue is getting into said cover without being out-maneuvered and/or overwhelmed. This, coupled with the potent Fenrir II put the Lyrans into a pretty good situation with their Battle Armor (when was the last time you could say THAT? ;D).

Also, the LBX variant of the Black Wolf for the Empire works phenomenally well with a Wulfen--have the Wulfen open up some holes with the ERPPC or ERLL/TarComp variants, then rush in and deposit the armor (which can still be mechanized), and it basically becomes a portable LB/20X for the Wulfen (or other omni of your choice). It's not quite as powerful as a point of fire-resistant Ironholds, but it's darned good, the mechanized capability of a heavy suit and its synergy with the Wolves' mobile touman puts it over the top for me as the better design.

[Lazarus Jaguar]

As a fan of BA, I love the current state of the IS.  So many geat dsigns to play with.  Of the new batch, I liked the CuCuCaJoo a lot, but the best IMO was the Taranis.  Good firepower and still Mech Capable.  The Clans stuff seems kinda meh thlugh.  Even the best one they introduced, the Black Woldf, seems kinda mediocre.  I think they need to start whipping their techs (is that who their weapons engineers are?  Or is that the Scientist Caste) into shape a bit if this is the best they can do.


On the subject of Battlearmor, something I've been thinking:  does IS standard still have a place in 3145?  Not only are there new "trooper" designs out there, but i it occured to me that with the Elemental no longer exclusive to the Clans (Clan Sea Fox, if you have moeny we'll sell you anything!) that it could be looked at as superfluous or mostly obsolete.  Except for poorer mercenary commands or police use.  The larger military forces can get the superior Elemental just as easily I imagine.  Or am I wrong about availability?

[martian]

On the subject of Battlearmor, something I've been thinking:  does IS standard still have a place in 3145?  Not only are there new "trooper" designs out there, but i it occured to me that with the Elemental no longer exclusive to the Clans (Clan Sea Fox, if you have moeny we'll sell you anything!) that it could be looked at as superfluous or mostly obsolete.  Except for poorer mercenary commands or police use.  The larger military forces can get the superior Elemental just as easily I imagine.  Or am I wrong about availability?

I think so. Not everybody can afford the ClanTech, and perhaps not everybody wants to be depended on a foreign power.
I guess that IS Standard is easier to maintain and repair and spare parts are easier to come by, as it's so common.

After all, even the Sloth is still in service after 100 years.

[False Son]

But the Sloth has been periodically updated.  The Inner Sphere Standard hasn't been radically updated at all.  The last upgrade it got was the Recoiless Rifle.  They had a used back when they were ISS or nothing for mercs and Periphery commands.  Now... meh.  It would be interesting to see someone buy up all the surplus ISS and refit them with something like advanced armor.

[sillybrit]

The Sloth hasn't so much been updated, it's more a case of trying to squeeze out some use from an obsolescent chassis. For a real life example, think back to WW2 in particular, with earlier tanks converted to SPGs, mobile AAA, etc.

Overall, I'm leaning towards favoring the Republic's battle armor corps. It has a solid mix of high-end and low-end suits of every weight category, covering every possible role, except the more obscure niches. The Centaur gives them a unique capability that harkens back to the new meta when the AFFS introduced the Hauberk; which the RAF also has. They have a good stable of medium and heavy battlesuits to exploit Mechanized Battle Armor capabilities, including the aforementioned Centaur for long range fire support.

Although the Suns arguably hasn't added anything eye opening for some time, that doesn't make what they have inferior, plus they still have the most diverse battle armor selection. No other House military has its own aquatic battlesuit and few can match the new Marine variant of the Infiltrator Mk II in space. Like all non-RAF forces the AFFS does lack artillery battlesuits, and I wish it had a decent heavy design, but the Suns does have a robust lineup of transport vehicles to help ferry around its trio of assault suits.

[sillybrit]

It depends on what you are going for.  The limitations of mass are also limitations on BV.  If all I want is a 4 jump leg capper the GD Scout does that at a very low BV.  Heck, it even brings an AP weapon if I want to swarm.  The free TAC has the same chance as any other weapon of punching through.

As per TW p223, AP weapons cannot be used for Swarm attacks, so he GD Scout effectively cannot Swarm as all it can do is climb onto the target Mech/vehicle and then shuffle around in embarrassment while occasionally calling the MechWarrior/tank crew noobs and haxors, while blaming their lack of attack on lag.

[Jellico]

I am leaning towards the Dominion.

Golem (support and std)
Rogue Bear (upgrade and std)
Thunderbird? (they captured a Nova Cat factory on Mualang. Who knows what it produced?)
Elemental
Bar (imported)
Wraith
Constable (possibly the only support BA in the game)
Kobold (Original and IIC. The IIC a better spotter than the Achileus or Quirinus.)

No individual best suit (maybe), but they operate the full suite of capabilities.

[Colt Ward]

I think the Dracs may have a better BA line up at this time over the FedSuns.  Any Nova Cat production they picked up and had a good collection in the first place.

By the way, what would you call the new ISS?  The Inner Sphere Upgraded?  The Inner Sphere Standard Upgrade?  As mentioned, about the only thing I can think to do would be to improve the type of armor . . . maybe extend the jump range with the mass freed up?  I will have to use the BA Builder when I find my excel.

[False Son]

As per TW p223, AP weapons cannot be used for Swarm attacks, so he GD Scout effectively cannot Swarm as all it can do is climb onto the target Mech/vehicle and then shuffle around in embarrassment while occasionally calling the MechWarrior/tank crew noobs and haxors, while blaming their lack of attack on lag.

This would apply to whatever weapons are used in the BA's hands?

[martian]

But the Sloth has been periodically updated.  The Inner Sphere Standard hasn't been radically updated at all.  The last upgrade it got was the Recoiless Rifle.  They had a used back when they were ISS or nothing for mercs and Periphery commands.  Now... meh.  It would be interesting to see someone buy up all the surplus ISS and refit them with something like advanced armor.

Miko's Blades San mercenary unit still uses the IS Standard BA in the Dark Age.
So I think I can answer the original question: Yes, it still has its place.

[sillybrit]

This would apply to whatever weapons are used in the BA's hands?

Even if it's a handheld weapon carried in armored gloves, it still counts as an AP attack and thus non-effective during Swarm attacks.

[MarauderD]

I actually think the AFFS suits are holding up quite well, with the obvious exception of the Cavalier. The lack of updates on the flagship suit hurts them a bit.

That being said, I think the Grenadier is the gold standard for BA damage. It can handle other battle armor or mech forces quite well. Furthermore, the new Fusilier, while being somewhat smeared by the fluff, is an absolute brute in its Reflective mode. That thing will terrorize other BA with its amount of armor and the Plasma Rifle.

Lastly, while it is an in-universe and not a tabletop piece of evidence, the AFFS just has more BA to throw at people. By 3145 even lowly LCTs have a full regiment of BA. That means 750+ suits. Even if 500 of them are Cavaliers, and the other 250 are a hodge podge of Pumas, Hauberks, Grenadiers and Fusliers--that is a lot of battlearmor for anyone to deal with in any setting.

[False Son]

Even if it's a handheld weapon carried in armored gloves, it still counts as an AP attack and thus non-effective during Swarm attacks.

Thank you for connecting the dots.  I guess that is one point in the Kage's favor over the GD Scout.  The team support weapon (MG, flamer, etc) can be used in a swarm attack?  Not that swarming is all that effective these days.

I actually think the AFFS suits are holding up quite well, with the obvious exception of the Cavalier. The lack of updates on the flagship suit hurts them a bit.

A shame, too.  I actually like the Cavalier as an improvement on the IS Standard (mostly the SRM).  I was hoping it would continue to improve along similar lines and take a form like the Amazon, but without a Recoiless Rifle.

That being said, I think the Grenadier is the gold standard for BA damage. It can handle other battle armor or mech forces quite well. Furthermore, the new Fusilier, while being somewhat smeared by the fluff, is an absolute brute in its Reflective mode. That thing will terrorize other BA with its amount of armor and the Plasma Rifle.

I see both suits as having opposite problems.  The Grenadier doesn't have enough armor (intentionally from sillybrit's article) and the Fusilier has too much.  Both are pretty good.  I just don't think the overall selection of AFFS BA is on par with that of the RAF, DCMS or LCAF.  They attempted some interesting things in 3145, but I don't think it turned out as well as their earlier efforts.  I mean, this is the AFFS.  They made the Infiltrator MkII, the Grenadier and the Hauberk Commando.  The Fusilier, Sniper and Sea Fox in comparison are just sort of... meh.  And that's really why I harp on them.  Back in days yonder the AFFS had the edge and now seem to have lost it.  Personal opinion, though.

The FedSuns prioritising one form of armor over the other is a bit of a tough call, as well.  DCMS gets off kind of easy in that it fights clans and the AFFS which has been buying up clan lasers for some time.  The AFFS, meanwhile has to contend with a PPC heavy DCMS and a CCAF that is known for artillery use.  Basic stealth seems to be the armor of choice in the AFFS.  The Reflective, meanwhile, is excessive on the Fusilier, as i've mentioned, especially for a suit so under armed.

[sillybrit]

The team support weapon (MG, flamer, etc) can be used in a swarm attack? 

Yes. As long as the Squad Support Weapon Mount is mounted on an arm, then it can be used during a Swarm attack.

[Jellico]

That being said, I think the Grenadier is the gold standard for BA damage.

No, not really. SRM4 pack with a large-ish ammo bin. Say 8 points of damage.

Fire Ironhold. 4 x APGR say 9 points of damage.

Golem Support. ASRM6 say 10 points of damage.

Cuchulainn. ERMPL. 7 points but at 15 hexes with a -1.

Kopis. 2 MLs. you could say a little under 8, but bigger blocks of damage.

I appreciate that I have just listed 3 Clanners and an IS suit, but I have been up all night and I can't think of any more off the top of my head.

There are a lot of suits out there these days with lots of combinations of armour, movement, and weapons. Heck different suits play to different rulesets. Some are customised for Marine Points. Some Table Top. Some RPG.
The Grenadier is solid, but I don't think it has ever been a standout as an assault suit.

[sillybrit]

To be fair to the Grenadier, when it came out in 2005 none of those designs you named were available. Competing assaults at that time were the Golem, Hauberk, Fenrir and Kanazuchi. The Golem and Kanazuchi could both exceed the Grenadier's damage, but only once, while the other two may have had greater range and/or endurance, but couldn't match the damage.

Although not an assault, the Corona could also be counted as a competitor due to its speed, but it again cannot match the damage, although it does have better range, accuracy and unlimited ammo in BT games.

When the Grenadier was republished in TRO3075, we got to add the Shedu and Nephilim, both of which had competitive variants, although the Grenadier also got the HK variant, which does have greater short term firepower than the original. There's range and endurance issues here to complicate the direct comparison.

While I agree that it's no longer the king of battle armor damage, and was beginning to show its age with TRO3075, but in the beginning I would say that it was the gold standard.

[Savage Coyote]

I like the Lyran line up with the Fenrir II, Cucuchalain, Grey Death Infiltrator, and... oh, well, those three are really fun to use.  GDI is a jack of all trades suit and I've had success using as an artillery spotter while Fenrir II's introduced some Clanners to their LRM launchers, tip of the spear style :D

[MarauderD]

No, not really. SRM4 pack with a large-ish ammo bin. Say 8 points of damage.

Fire Ironhold. 4 x APGR say 9 points of damage.

Golem Support. ASRM6 say 10 points of damage.

Cuchulainn. ERMPL. 7 points but at 15 hexes with a -1.

Kopis. 2 MLs. you could say a little under 8, but bigger blocks of damage.

I appreciate that I have just listed 3 Clanners and an IS suit, but I have been up all night and I can't think of any more off the top of my head.

There are a lot of suits out there these days with lots of combinations of armour, movement, and weapons. Heck different suits play to different rulesets. Some are customised for Marine Points. Some Table Top. Some RPG.
The Grenadier is solid, but I don't think it has ever been a standout as an assault suit.

As other people have hinted at, the Grenadier is quite a bit older than many of those suits. So when I say gold standard, I meant a level of firepower that other suits might be compared with in a favorable manner.

I'm not a great BT player at all, but I do think the Grenadier HK is a standout assault suit. It can take down PBIs, armor, and mechs. I'm not sure the examples you listed can say the same, but I could be wrong!

Lastly, regarding the comparison to the Cucumber: yes, it has a great main gun, but the BV cost is quite high for battle armor at 836. Now I know this is a separate issue, but one worth considering. Would you rather have one squad of Cukes or 2 squads of Grenadier HKs? (372 BV)

[False Son]

I'm not contesting the Grenadier being the best suit the FS have at the present.  And yeah, the damage the Grenadier inflicts is mostly in small hits.  That makes it very dangerous.  The Kopis ML can outpace the damage, but the damage hits in 5 points.  Though, I think it is worth pointing out, even when it was brand new, the Grendier's primary weapon, the SRM4 was still subjected to the dreaded AMS.

It is kind of interesting to see the AFFS building 3 assault suits.  I'd expect the Lyrans to be building the most assaults, but there you go.  At least the Feddies are building the Fusilier to be a trumped up heavy instead of making more Grenadier or Kanazuchi type clones.

The other faction that surprises me is the FWLM.  Their armor in some ways seems like either a tiny step forward, or a small step backwards in some cases.  Good thing they got Irian back.