Author Topic: What if anything will the discontinuation of metal minis from GW mean for IWM?  (Read 31561 times)

Rom Precentor

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The sad part is they do already know they just have not done anything about it.  Poor casting, horrible scale issues, etc.  Other lines that have been around for that length of time have improved, IWM in my opinion has declined.  Even though the tin shortage driving up metal costs might not be related to that, the combination will still most likely effect sales.    Personally I am not paying $15 for a miniature of that quality when other companies can get it right.  GW's action won't effect the market one bit.  China is the key there and GW is no where close to China size.

Injection molded plastic is too costly to start up cause you have to have huge numbers to make back the cost of machining the molds and CBT doesn't have the sales to do it.  Lead has too many issues that won't be made up for if used.  That leaves resin.  Easily convertible, good characteristics if dropped, and around $5/pound depending on what quality you use.  New detailed sculpts with scale to each other in resins would make money and not break the bank when we wanted to buy them.  IWM shall have to adapt or suffer because they have already proven staying in the same place won't get them anywhere.  Just my 2 cents.
« Last Edit: 14 April 2011, 09:23:55 by Rom Precentor »

sounguru

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I thought the multi-part minis of, say, the Marauder and Warhammer were generally reviled? If so, then it wouldn't make sense for any company to revisit that.

Simply put that is because there have been very few minis that were made that way and the one piece look like it is dropping a turd pose has become the norm.  I have hated the one or 2 piece mini since day one and if you look at other lines and the way they are made there are very few that come with so few pieces.

One of the advantages of the multi piece mini is that the posing and modification levels go way up which is often overlooked because one piece is now the norm. But times are a changing and more serious miniature painters and artist are now part of the hobby. One of the biggest pains of a mini that I ever put together was the old Marauder and it is one of the most popular sculpts of old because it was one of the better in detail, art, and casting.

A lot of the new Marauder and Warhammers downfall (although I love the new Warhammer) has nothing to do with the # of pieces it is the art it is based off off, so they had an uphill climb from the start.

Quote
Great, I think that with that post, IWM will suddenly find the massive pile of cash they need to make that change. Because they're just sitting on it right now, stuffing their mattress with it.
They just didn't realize that reinvesting it all in to their business makes any sense. They're kinda dense like that, despite being in the mini business since the 80s. Sad, really.
Good thing we're here to tell them stuff they don't already know.

Paul

I never said it was just IWM problem there are more people involved than just one company. IWM may have a contract saying that they are the only BT mini maker out there, but contracts can be changed, worked around, or they do run out. I have been and still am involved in QC of a couple of minis now and we will not send anything to the final stages until we are sure we have it as close to right as we can get it. Again it all goes back to QC funny how that works. When I ran my photography business I fired a few printers because their quality control sucked and it was hurting my business, or I talked with them and figured out what was needed to improve that quality. Don't tell me good quality can't be done there are a lot and I mean a lot of lines that produce higher detailed minis out there and do it for the same price range so it is up to TPTB across the board to finally get off the duff and figure out what can be done to change it.

Sadly as long as BT is looked at as a board game and that miniatures are secondary to it I don't see that attitude changing even when 99% of the people who play the game play with miniatures.

But enough has been said about this we are off base of the main subject and from my past experiences I know that things are falling on deaf ears. :-\ So as far as this conversations goes I'm out of here...
« Last Edit: 14 April 2011, 10:41:28 by sounguru »
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Stingray

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I agree with Sounguru... While IWMs has been good to us (for the most part) a little competition could really help even if its just to motivate IWMs to make sure they stay on their A game (They have a good A game but often it seems like they don't mind letting the benchwarmers out either. At times I feel like they have eh close enough its a body on the field (or a sculpt for a mech))...

Also IMHO the idea Battletech is a board game is more damaging than good, and is just an excuse people hide behind. No other board I know have has books and books of fluff and so much background and detail to it. Those are reserved for miniature games, and I would also like to add Battletech seems to be sold alongside Warhammer 40k, and not Risk or Monopoly. In fact the reason Battletech had a good presence without a starter box is because its NOT A BOARD GAME.

I would like to see Settlers of Catan survive so well for 2+ years without having a starter set.

General308

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I thought the multi-part minis of, say, the Marauder and Warhammer were generally reviled? If so, then it wouldn't make sense for any company to revisit that.


Great, I think that with that post, IWM will suddenly find the massive pile of cash they need to make that change. Because they're just sitting on it right now, stuffing their mattress with it.
They just didn't realize that reinvesting it all in to their business makes any sense. They're kinda dense like that, despite being in the mini business since the 80s. Sad, really.
Good thing we're here to tell them stuff they don't already know.

Paul

Paul, kind why so defensive.  I think we have all agreed that it isn't IWM fault that they have to raise prices.  Those that don't like the price hike have all said that. But at some point the prices are going to hit a breaking point.       When that happens if they haven't found a cheaper material to use IWM will go out of buisness.   Now this round of price increases will not do that.  But you have to admit at some point players will say "I don't think so"

I don't know the solution.   But IWM as a company better look for whatever that is.     These prices are bad for Battletech.

Paul

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Paul, kind why so defensive.

I get irritated when someone says stuff like "Company XYZ should do >REALLY_OBVIOUS_THING< to do better. Sure, it's expensive, but you gotta invest. They're stupid for not doing it."


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But IWM as a company better look for whatever that is.     These prices are bad for Battletech.

Yeah, like that. Why these assumptions that this is stuff that IWM isn't thinking about too? Do they seem that idiotic or out of touch to everyone? Really?
If you have to jump to conclusions about what's going on, why can't those conclusions be based on something positive instead?

Irritating.

Paul
The solution is just ignore Paul.

Jackmc

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I would hate to think that the price of my mini's would hinge on what we could get from the middle east or south America. Let's just stick with metal. Which probably comes from China anyways.  ???

The vast majority of tin comes from one area in a single country and said country has decided to experiment with market manipulation because of its effective monopoly on tin.  Last I heard, they instituted an across the board 3X price increase in 2010 and signaled that more increases would be on the way. 

The country decided to do this because the global economic downturn had been hard on it, but their attempt to generate revenue through their monopoly has made tin alternatives suddenly economically viable and in turn the demand for tin is likely to drop in the near future as that alternative tech comes online.  Unless some sanity returns, future economics texts will use this as the classic death spiral example at the macroeconomic level.

-Jackmc


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If you have to jump to conclusions about what's going on, why can't those conclusions be based on something positive instead?

Irritating.

Paul


You're expecting gamers to be positive? Are you new here? ;)
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General308

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I get irritated when someone says stuff like "Company XYZ should do >REALLY_OBVIOUS_THING< to do better. Sure, it's expensive, but you gotta invest. They're stupid for not doing it."


Yeah, like that. Why these assumptions that this is stuff that IWM isn't thinking about too? Do they seem that idiotic or out of touch to everyone? Really?
If you have to jump to conclusions about what's going on, why can't those conclusions be based on something positive instead?

Irritating.

Paul

I think people do have positive concluisions on things IWM does well.  I think the reaction to example them casting the new infantry and the like has been positive from players.  Players have had a very positive reaction to the Fan fund sculpt program.   So I think to say that there are no positive conclusions is unfair.

Price is a whole other issue.   You know you stated earlier on you can't compare one niche company to another.  The thing is that customers do just that.  Why because it is there money to be spent.     I have spent a lot of money on this game in my life time.  Plan to spend more.    But I also look at the crude load of minis I have unpainted and go "Do I really need a $15 mini that if I ever do paint will look like crap"   ( I don't paint very well).   I am not worried about the QC of the mini's because IWM does a good job of taking care of the customer in my opinion.    But price is going to make or brake game companies in the end.   I believe with each price increase it is that much close to people walking away.   

All that said I want to see IWM do well.  In the end though they are a company and they do have to make a profit.  I have no problem with that.   I like companies making money.    At the same time there is a limit to what I will or won't spend for any given product.

beachhead1985

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I really don't think quality has been so bad, yes i've been dissapointed a time or too and yes, alot of that has to do with my own sense of asthetics and my personal vision for what the game I love is...

*cough* smaller heads, bigger legs, no bowman crotch! *cough*

but by and large i've been impressed, with the depth and breadth of the line if nothing else.

we ARE saddled with crappy art once in a blue moon, either a hopelessly fugly unit that you either love for it's fugliness or hate, or simply poor perspective within the art that makes the unit look bad, but again, our artists hit way more often than they miss.

but again; breadth! look at the variety of the line! and IWM even archives old molds for the hardcore fans.

I mean look no farther than the loooooooooooooong awaited Aerotech-I fighters coming out now for an example of what is in fact a fanservice to a small minority of the fanbase. Me I love me some Thunderbirds and I put Aeros at the top of my list everytime I place an order, but alot of people don't, yet IWM still puts the effort in.

and they are responsive to our desires too, they care about our imput. is there any doubt in anyone's mind here exactly what GW thinks about fan's who'd rather not buy all new books every few years?

and finally I think we're too hard on the simpler casts, for a beginner, those are much, much liess intimidating than say; a 19-peice kit which needs to be drilled and tapped with tools he doesn't have yet. but at the same time, yes, i can see how a 1-peice jumping panther is less interesting to an accomplished craftsman, so I like both.

Now I haven;t played much in the past few years and admittadly, when i buy a lot on ebay and see it comes with a fiddly peice like a timberwolf, yeah, i do sigh and roll my eyes; I am NOT the greatest builder and i can't paint worth anything, but I look at a mini for the unit it represents and it has to be pretty bad *cough* Kraken *cough* for me to not at least consider it as something to shoot at when I do finally play next.
« Last Edit: 17 April 2011, 12:49:00 by beachhead1985 »
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invallid effort

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but by and large i've been impressed, with the depth and breadth of the line if nothing else.



I mean look no farther than the loooooooooooooong awaited Aerotech-I fighters coming out now for an example of what is in fact a fanservice to a small minority of the fanbase. Me I love me some Thunderbirds and I put Aeros at the top of my list everytime I place an order, but alot of people don't, yet IWM still puts the effort in.

and they are responsive to our desires too, they care about our imput. is there any doubt in anyone's mind here exactly what GW thinks about fan's who'd rather not buy all new books every few years?

and finally I think we're too hard on the simpler casts, for a beginner, those are much, much liess intimidating than say; a 19-peice kit which needs to be drilled and tapped with tools he doesn't have yet. but at the same time, yes, i can see how a 1-peice jumping panther is less interesting to an accomplished craftsman, so I like both.

:Rant begins:
Now I've been creeping around here since the boards went down (and since class has been real intense haven't been real active since then) but now I feel obligated to post  :o.

 I have to agree with alot said on this topic I think one of the best things about IWM and the ptb with battle tech is the fact that they are so responsive to fan input It seems that the way things are run here is more like an open community with input accepted and mainly listened to whereas other companies (....GW) expect the average peons to bow before all they do (excessive...Maybe #P) now granted when people shout THE PRICES ARE TOO HIGH they dont listen but honestly what company would and its not like this is the only thing increasing in price, what isn't more expensive now than it was 2 years ago, or even 6 months ago< IS it really that shocking that a mini that used to cost 12$ is now 15$ when a cup of coffee that used to be 1.29 is now 3+$ :-[

The fan funding program and the fact that there is sooooo much variation in the bt products sold IMHO is one of the best things to happen to any miniatures company and granted the prices are going up (some to real eye watering levels for a college student) but id rather pay a little more to support a company that listens to people when they suggest something than just marks the email as spam :P

Granted there may be better ways to do things and more detailed minis out there but as far as recent releases go for the most part the sculpts have been quite nice, the fact of the matter is IWM IS the company that makes BT minis and if people dont support them a great game that has already fallen out of the lime-light may take a body blow it would be hard to recover from. granted from time to time scale and mold lines do deserve some complaint but from the amount of flak IWM has taken from the community here makes it seem like they killed everyones family pet not raised the prices 3$
:Rant ends:

Im gonna get some coffee
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General308

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I think we would all agree IWM does a lot of things right.  The fan sculpt program is great.     I don't think anyone has tried to state IWM is just raising prices because they want to do so.    The current prices I think in the end mean less impulse buying.

invallid effort

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hehehe... I read this topic after being sleep deprived for about a day so my response may have sounded stronger than I intended....ooops ;D, so after a few hrs sleep and a cup of the aforementioned coffee I apologize for my rant and  didnt mean to sound like a jerk or say people hate Iwm, in fact most of the posts were supportive and in my sleepless state misread ALOT of them :'(....im shutting up now :-X
« Last Edit: 17 April 2011, 16:41:26 by invallid effort »
"Fighting a Cauldron Born is a bit like fighting someone who shouts about lawn gnomes stealing their tea cozies, then punches you in the teeth."-Fallen_Raven

Nothing "frail" about tactical retreat

General308

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hehehe... I read this topic after being sleep deprived for about a day so my response may have sounded stronger than I intended....ooops ;D, so after a few hrs sleep and a cup of the aforementioned coffee I apologize for my rant and  didnt mean to sound like a jerk or say people hate Iwm, in fact most of the posts were supportive and in my sleepless state misread ALOT of them :'(....im shutting up now :-X

Heck if we didn't all rant the board would be dead.

Cergorach

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Pricing is a very painful subject, part of the problem is that BT miniatures aren't exactly common at (web)stores, especially the more popular ones. So often shipping is added to the total cost, for those of us that life on other continents things get really expensive with even more expensive shipping, taxes, and import fees.

But if you think BT miniatures have gotten expensive, you might want to look at the biggest pony in the park, GW. In 1988 they produced one of their first 40k plastic kits 30 plastic Space Marines for 9.99GBP, 23 years later they ask 23.00GBP for 10 plastic Space Marines. Almost seven times more expensive then 23 years ago. What I do have to give GW is that their plastic kits have gotten more detailed over the years.

Also keep in mind that IWM wasn't around 23 years ago, there was Ral Partha, eventually owned by FASA. Now IWM pretty much only makes licensed properties in primarily metal. I suspect that they have little to no knowledge/skill in producing plastic, I believe they even outsource their resin casting. They are primarily metal casters and are in pursuit to cast more metal, not move on to new/other materials, that's not their business. Not to mention that they aren't really developing their own properties, they are dependant on CGL/Topps for that and investing heavily in for example plastics (a long time investment) is very risky. Especially in the Mech market they have little to no competition, so there is very little business motivation to stife for excellence

If you want (high quality) plastic Mechs, that's CGL's boat you have to rock. As for "it's not possible to do the BT range in plastic", not if you want to do the entire range at one time it isn't, but I suspect that if some thought was put into the project you could get a long way with a few releases a year. Separate plastic hex bases, 10-12 Mechs per set (looking at the GW frames that would probably fit with the new Thor/Loki quality in mind), they could price that company of Mechs what you now pay for a lance. If you could get that quality/pricepoint into (web)gamestores on a global scale, demand would probably be enough to generate a hefty profit. But like I said, that's CGL's boat, if the unavailability of the starterset and now the core rulebook is any indication, they aren't organized enough to pull of a well timed plastic release schedule.

As a side note, I just bought an 'unseen Warhammer and Longbow' in plastic, 5" tall for $6.73 a piece. Perfect for 15mm/1:100 Battletech. They are a pain to assemble well, but the cheaper Gundam Bandai snapfit kits are a joy to put together. The 1:144 kits fit well (size wise) with the 15mm/1:100 Mechs. I bought a quad for $3.85 and it has six points of articulation, if you want a more detailed kit you can get one for around $13.47 with more weapon options, way more points of articulation, more details, different colored plastic for different parts, etc, they even transform if they have that ability (LAMs). They now even have a range of such high detailed kits that they have a highly detailed internal structure (kits are around $21.04).

Psyckosama

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honestly they need to start slowly converting over to resin bodies with metal accessories like arms and guns.

I think Spartan Games is an example of how to do it right. The market is rapidly changing and all metal is quickly becoming a liability.

Hell, my local FLGS doesn't even carry Btech anymore. :(

TS_Hawk

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I won't be buying overpriced plastic minis for a game I don't play rather than not buying overpriced metal minis for a game I don't play?

ok you have me confused so you don't play the game battletech or talking about something else but if you don't play the game battletech then why are you here?  im just confused and sorry.

Thank you Hikage
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ColBosch

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ok you have me confused so you don't play the game battletech or talking about something else but if you don't play the game battletech then why are you here?  im just confused and sorry.

He doesn't play Warhammer.
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TS_Hawk

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Ah thank you. 

Thank you Hikage
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JoeJones

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He doesn't play Warhammer.

Mendou was also trying to be humorous/snarky about it.  He's not at all a fan of Games Workshop.

However, he has been playing (and enjoying) Battletech off and on since 1990 or so. (I should know. I've been his opponent in a lot of those games.)

HaplessWithDice

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I beleive someone mentioned a Resin that was weighty enough to be used sucessfully in exact same mods as the "Lead Free Pewter" that the industry is currently using.  It's cheap to obtain but sets at a significatly slower rate so it requires twice the time to set.  Thus meaning IWM would have to hire more people, or have people work longer shifts, in all raising labor costs.  The question I think becomes does this lead to a wash, savings, or increase?  My guess is wash.

As I don't know if any of you have noticed Privateer Press has switched a portion of their line over from metals to plastics/resin (Mostly their heavy Warjacks)

Shi_no_Kami

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PP switched some of their medium base minis, most light warjacks, and heavy warjacks over to plastic. The thing was that the prices did not go down at all... for a heavy warjack this is ok since if you are good with a drill and some tiny neodymium magnets you can create every heavy warjack for a faction on one chassis. The light jacks though, no change in price and yet only the one type of mini per pack (at least it looks that way)...

Except then PP goes and makes these huge 80mm base monstrosities out of metal for like $80.00us a piece...

I left WM & Hordes due to the absolute insanity of the power creep. It's not a slow creep, its like a yearly doubling of the insanity. I still love P3 paints... and I'll admit they make beautiful models, just not ones I'm gonna drop $80us on just to keep up.

Now I'll end my slightly off topic diatribe.

HaplessWithDice

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Well we got confirmation at least that the resin does exist on Mini-wargaming.com.  They basicly said that once the metals of all mini's sell out we will start seeing the resins, produced with the exact same molds.  So 0 change in the looks.  Which leads us to "If it works for the goose it will work for the gander" or "If GW can use this stuff, then so can IWM."

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Well we got confirmation at least that the resin does exist on Mini-wargaming.com.  They basicly said that once the metals of all mini's sell out we will start seeing the resins, produced with the exact same molds.  So 0 change in the looks.  Which leads us to "If it works for the goose it will work for the gander" or "If GW can use this stuff, then so can IWM."

Confirmation is directly on the GW mainpage.

HaplessWithDice

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Confirmation is directly on the GW mainpage.
:-[ good point.  Anyway I have a feeling IMW will/may if they are considering this take a watch and wait approach to see what happens and the quality that is produced.  That is if they have any plans to follow in the switch.

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PP switched some of their medium base minis, most light warjacks, and heavy warjacks over to plastic. The thing was that the prices did not go down at all... for a heavy warjack this is ok since if you are good with a drill and some tiny neodymium magnets you can create every heavy warjack for a faction on one chassis. The light jacks though, no change in price and yet only the one type of mini per pack (at least it looks that way)...

Except then PP goes and makes these huge 80mm base monstrosities out of metal for like $80.00us a piece...

I left WM & Hordes due to the absolute insanity of the power creep. It's not a slow creep, its like a yearly doubling of the insanity. I still love P3 paints... and I'll admit they make beautiful models, just not ones I'm gonna drop $80us on just to keep up.

Now I'll end my slightly off topic diatribe.

Those huge models you are talking about are not made of metal.  They are made of resin for the most part with maybe a few plastic and metal parts for some of the small parts and figures.  I still dont get how people say Im not going to drop that much money on a model to "keep up."  Those models are not a must have to play Warmachine or Hordes.  You can have a perfectly fine and fun game without the Battle Engines.  I play Warmachine on occasion when I get a chance to play it and I have no plans to purchase one of the Battle Engines.  Seeing as how the BE rules are and the fact that I play Cygnar and have 3 Hunter warjacks they dont scare me one bit.
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Well we got confirmation at least that the resin does exist on Mini-wargaming.com.  They basicly said that once the metals of all mini's sell out we will start seeing the resins, produced with the exact same molds.  So 0 change in the looks.  Which leads us to "If it works for the goose it will work for the gander" or "If GW can use this stuff, then so can IWM."

  FoW use resin models mixed with metal parts. I have "worked" several tanks and I have to say that the detail level is almost as good as metal or plastic. The problem is that you can find "bubbles" of air in the miniature. This issue can be solved but it is not good to see.

  Another problem is that the miniature is more fragile. MORE fragile. Any attempt to mod it and even sanding can end with a broken part. They are so fragile that several parts of the miniature, like the gun barrels, are done in metal because a resin piece won't resist rough handling. 

 Finally , there's the small problem of resin dust. It is toxic.

 For me, resin is not the first option. It is the third, after plastic and metal. It is good for big pieces but not so good for mechs.
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HaplessWithDice

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  FoW use resin models mixed with metal parts. I have "worked" several tanks and I have to say that the detail level is almost as good as metal or plastic. The problem is that you can find "bubbles" of air in the miniature. This issue can be solved but it is not good to see.

  Another problem is that the miniature is more fragile. MORE fragile. Any attempt to mod it and even sanding can end with a broken part. They are so fragile that several parts of the miniature, like the gun barrels, are done in metal because a resin piece won't resist rough handling. 

 Finally , there's the small problem of resin dust. It is toxic.

 For me, resin is not the first option. It is the third, after plastic and metal. It is good for big pieces but not so good for mechs.
Intersting.  Given the nature of GW and their WYSiWYG game rules (Not found in battletech) one would suspect that they would chose something where conversion would be easier.  I wonder if there is only one Resin type, or just this one.  Thank you for brining this issues to the community.  This is the kind of thing we all would like to know when asking questions like this.  Plus the toxic issue for the dust since magnatising and such will be common (again for What You See is What You Get rules).  It sounds like a bad move for them.  And anything that fragile would be bad for us.

Again thanks

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Those huge models you are talking about are not made of metal.  They are made of resin for the most part with maybe a few plastic and metal parts for some of the small parts and figures.  I still dont get how people say Im not going to drop that much money on a model to "keep up."  Those models are not a must have to play Warmachine or Hordes.  You can have a perfectly fine and fun game without the Battle Engines.  I play Warmachine on occasion when I get a chance to play it and I have no plans to purchase one of the Battle Engines.  Seeing as how the BE rules are and the fact that I play Cygnar and have 3 Hunter warjacks they dont scare me one bit.

I actually dropped the game when they were moving to MKII. I was not so worried about keeping up with the jones, as I was with the power creep. And the 3 hunters are a small example of the power creep. Base book Cygnar light Jacks: Charger, Lancer, Sentinel - quality jack: Lancer due to arc node. Neither of the other two were great back then. Cygnar's jack power was in its heavies: Ironclad and Defender. Book2: Escalation (and they meant it) - Cygnar gets a really good light jack: Hunter, it costs just a little bit more, but suddenly its a great Heavy Jack killer (and heavy infantry too) that is very battlefield flexible. And Cygnar gets the Centurion, epic win for a heavy jack. Can't be charged or slammed, and has a killer melee weapon for only 10 points more than the far less effective Ironclad (now). Each book essentially increased the baseline of what was quality. Sure that sells, but after Apotheosis it got stale.

Now this was from Mk.I. Maybe Mk.2 is better... but I was long gone before they were done beta-testing Mk.II.

At least those huge 80mm based models are in resin... but at $85.00.

And I'll give PP its dues, their minis are gorgeous for the most part. I fault no one for buying, playing, and enjoying the games they make. It's just like I fault no one for buying ForgeWorld models (you want to pay £450, power to you... but I have bills). 

And now, I'm really off topic. Apologies... I'll be going now.
 

Cergorach

  • Master Sergeant
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They basicly said that once the metals of all mini's sell out we will start seeing the resins, produced with the exact same molds.  So 0 change in the looks.
They are actually pulling all the metals from the GW shops, everything will get replaced by either plastic or resin, the price increases on some are insane.

HaplessWithDice

  • Corporal
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  • Posts: 57
They are actually pulling all the metals from the GW shops, everything will get replaced by either plastic or resin, the price increases on some are insane.
Interesting I was just on their site, and they said they are using their own resin formula which is Durable, light, and takes on sharper detail.  Well maybe not an exact quote but pretty close  Interesting.  Plus they are calling this "Fine Cast" and saying it will bring in a new era of the modeling end of the hobby because conversions will be much easier, pinnning will almost become a thing of the past, because of this resin.

 

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