Inner Sphere RAC5... what's its roll

[Caedis Animus]

Honestly, what can't shine on vehicles? I can't think of much.

[Arkansas Warrior]

=4 hits. I'm not interested in how much scenery I shoot up, I want to cause damage to my enemy.

You can't be assured of six hits, sure.  But you also can't be assured all of your ERMLs will hit.  I'd rather have a chance at six hits than a chance at 4.

As above: Heat efficient in CBT is really low-weight, high-heat. Because then you get to add all those lovely heat sinks that not only removes the weapon heat but also soaks crits and protects against the effects of engine crits and external heat.

No it isn't.  Heat efficient is damage points per heat point.  A RAC-5 has a ratio of 5:1, an ERML has a ratio of 1:1.  A RAC-5 firing full-bore does 6 heat, needing 3 DHS.  An ERML quad-rack does 20 heat, needing 10 DHS.  The RAC can do 150% the damage for 30% of the heat of your ERML battery.  That's more heat-efficient.

[False Son]

Honestly, what can't shine on vehicles? I can't think of much.

Energy weapons totaling more than 10 heat.  After that it gets into "because I can" territory.

[AJC46]

IS racks are easier to squeeze in a mech because they are smaller than their clan counterparts so there is that if your crit packing a unit.

[Klat]

For me RACs have a very simple use; MOAR DAKKA!

DAKKA is its own excuse.

[Hellraiser]

it's best uses? 

Where I've seen it shine is on Medium Cavalry mostly.

IIRC, it does well on the ShadowHawk-5D & Hatchetman-6D as well as the Manteffuel Omnitank.

Its also nice on the Ajax as mentioned because good luck surviving that thing.  I've seen one put town a Hauptmann that got too close.


Also, IIRC, it still does well as a Naval secondary weapon backing up batteries of Gauss Rifles.  3/5 GR + 3/1 RAC in a bay is something I like.

[Fletch]

I thought the ISRAC5 role would be to be the precursor to a RLGR5

[Nahuris]

I was fairly indifferent to the RAC's until, in a random game, I was assigned a Blade. Once I got the feel of that mech, it was suddenly very clear what the role of the RAC was... a mid-range brawler, and area denial weapon. But it has to be used on the correct platform. Designs, like the Blade, or the Legionnaire emphasize the use of RAC's, when used as primary weapons... get in range, and brutalize your opponent in the most unseemly way possible. Sadly, most of my group now recognizes my Blades, and does everything possible to keep me from getting behind them.......LOL.......
On designs like the "Assault Pike".... he Pike Support Vehicle with the 3 RAC/2's each, mounted on turrets, you use them like kind of like light SRM carriers with a range of 18....... use something like an Alacorn to open up the armor and then fill it with crit seeking shells, or use the volume of fire to sand armor, similar to SRM missiles.

As secondary weapons, they give you options. You can use them to either sand armor, provide crit seeking, or just add damage, as needed. At range, you can use them as normal AC's firing one or 2 shots, and lulling opponents into thinking they are just standard or ultra AC's.... and then surprise them, or just go in, burning ammo, and seeking to crush your enemy via volume of fire. Just remember, at longer ranges, using them in single shot mode still allows you to maintain an offensive posture, while still conserving ammo for those heavy bursts, and avoiding the risk of jamming a weapon while you are on the offense.

Nahuris

[GreekFire]

The -007 King Crab did teach me that the Plasma Rifle and RAC/5 have nice synergy. I wish more canon 'Mechs explored that avenue.

[Weirdo]

Plasma and RACs? No real rules synergy, but I can see how they match. You have a high-heat hole-puncher and a low-heat crit-seeker, both with matching range brackets. They're both utterly nasty against conventional forces, too!

...

Remind me to stay the HELL away from that King Crab. #P

[Scotty]

The number of clusters is what really seals it as a good deal.  An average of four five point hits from the RAC, and an average of three five point hits (and change) from the Plasma, with the potential to hit a combined total of 11 clusters at maximum output.  With one gun of each.  High end Assaults can carry a lot more than just one of each.  They also fit rather neatly into 20 tons, oddly enough (ignoring heatsinks).  10 for the RAC, 6 for the PR, 4 tons to split for ammo makes an even 20.

That's nasty.  You can fit 20 tons of stuff on low-end mediums with the right gear.

[Breetai]

The best thing about a RAC is that quantity has a quality of its own. Yeah, you only do 5 damage, but you'll hit your enemy with so many 5-point damage clusters over a short amount of time that you'll end up with decent penetration anyway.

[Mastergunz]

Im a fan of speedy little backstabbers (Legionnaires, XL Blades, etc..) that mount RAC5's. They are a psychological weapon all their own as well. Screen a fast RAC platform behind your heavies/assaults as you engage. The burst past them and flank the rear. Not an original tactic by any means but your opponent will KNOW your capable of it and move to try and prevent it. This will result in 2 things; either they concentrate fire on the fast mover pulling fire away from your heavies/assaults or they overextend their line trying to screen you from a flanking manuver allowing you to concentrate your firepower.

It's fun playing against Lyrans and watching them weep as they are helpless to avoid a flanking manuver.  ;D

-Gunz

[Arkansas Warrior]

The number of clusters is what really seals it as a good deal.  An average of four five point hits from the RAC, and an average of three five point hits (and change) from the Plasma, with the potential to hit a combined total of 11 clusters at maximum output.  With one gun of each.  High end Assaults can carry a lot more than just one of each.  They also fit rather neatly into 20 tons, oddly enough (ignoring heatsinks).  10 for the RAC, 6 for the PR, 4 tons to split for ammo makes an even 20.

That's nasty.  You can fit 20 tons of stuff on low-end mediums with the right gear.

RAC/PR Enforcer sounds like a lot of fun.   >:D

[Nahuris]

Im a fan of speedy little backstabbers (Legionnaires, XL Blades, etc..) that mount RAC5's. They are a psychological weapon all their own as well. Screen a fast RAC platform behind your heavies/assaults as you engage. The burst past them and flank the rear. Not an original tactic by any means but your opponent will KNOW your capable of it and move to try and prevent it. This will result in 2 things; either they concentrate fire on the fast mover pulling fire away from your heavies/assaults or they overextend their line trying to screen you from a flanking manuver allowing you to concentrate your firepower.

It's fun playing against Lyrans and watching them weep as they are helpless to avoid a flanking manuver.  ;D

-Gunz

My opponents have taken to leaving a heavy mech operating 3 to 5 hexes behind the line, usually with ERPPCs, and Targeting Computers, to deal with my Blades, should I go for the backstab.......

I just don't get the paranoia.... it's only a light mech with an AC/5...... Ok, ok, even I am not buying it.....LOL
Seriously, though, the Blade can chase heavy mechs off of the table, if it gets a good backshot in.

Nahuris

[Sabelkatten]

My opponents have taken to leaving a heavy mech operating 3 to 5 hexes behind the line, usually with ERPPCs, and Targeting Computers, to deal with my Blades, should I go for the backstab.......

I just don't get the paranoia.... it's only a light mech with an AC/5...... Ok, ok, even I am not buying it.....LOL
Seriously, though, the Blade can chase heavy mechs off of the table, if it gets a good backshot in.

Nahuris

It's 6 5-point hits moving 7/11... I've got Locust variants with more speed and firepower. As a general distraction on the flanks it's more irritating, especially if I'm running vehicles.

[Weirdo]

Does your Locust have a 15-hex range for its firepower, and does it have the psychological advantage of using only a single gun to do it?

RACs draw a certain amount of respect on my table. Of course, using a couple to cut a Nova Cat in half in two turns set that attitude early on, and the reputation has barely diminished since.

[cold1]

That gives me an idea... a Nova Cat with a couple clan RAC5's of its own.  Plus other toys!

[Sabelkatten]

Does your Locust have a 15-hex range for its firepower, and does it have the psychological advantage of using only a single gun to do it?

RACs draw a certain amount of respect on my table. Of course, using a couple to cut a Nova Cat in half in two turns set that attitude early on, and the reputation has barely diminished since.

Range isn't, IME, particularly useful for backstabbing. It's usually not harder to get to range 2 than to range 4 if you can get behind the target at all! As for the "single gun" angle that's just if you play against inexperienced players or ones who just don't understand probability. Counting on your enemy being stupid isn't a good plan!

[Weirdo]

Trust me, if you take your time to sneak around so you can backstab from ten hexes, it'll be worth it.

[Heavyguard]

As others have mentioned its great for area control. My 1st time using one against a friend he had a Kodiak ignoring my Jagermech -7F so I unloaded all 12 shots, 10 hit. The Kodiak ended up with 2 critical hits on it, 1 on the UAC20 and 1 on the XL engine. Needless to say that Jagermech kept the Kodiak occupied for another 2 rounds before finally dying on me. Ever since then he's checked to see if I'm field any RACs and tries to take them out first.

That and it takes up less space and was available for ~7 years before the Clans developed it.

[Sabelkatten]

Trust me, if you take your time to sneak around so you can backstab from ten hexes, it'll be worth it.

Ah, using double-blind and hoping the enemy doesn't notice you? Sure, that works. I'd rather have something that has a decent chance of punching a hole in that case. ERPPCs are nice. :)

[Caedis Animus]

Sabel, I'm starting to think you just hate Ballistics in general.

I would like the ER PPC more if it didn't end up taking a ridiculous amount of space.

RAC/5=14 crits (gun, 2 ammo, 2 DHS[IS])

ER/Enhanced ER PPC= 3 (Gun), plus 24 (DHS to make up for the heat) crits. So 27 total. Problably less, if you don't have other guns taking up a lot of heat and an engine to hold your wonderful crit-padding heat sink.

Clantech ER PPC= 2(Gun), plus 16 (DHS). So 18 crits; Once again proof that Clantech is good.

And on the subject of hoping the enemy doesn't notice you in Double Blind... You can do the same with a large enough Assault spearhead. It's hard to focus on the little guy when a pair of Fafnirs come thundering into view. You see the giant hole punchers and you wanna shoot 'em, and focus less on the sandblasting jerk behind you.
EDIT: Whoops. Typo.

[Erkki]

Sabel, I'm starting to think you just hate Ballistics in general.

I would like the ER PPC more if it didn't end up taking a ridiculous amount of space.

RAC/5=14 crits (gun, 2 ammo, 2 DHS[IS])

ER/Enhanced ER PPC= 3 (Gun), plus 24 (DHS to make up for the heat) crits. So 27 total. Problably less, if you don't have other guns taking up a lot of heat and an engine to hold your wonderful crit-padding heat sink.

Clantech ER PPC= 2(Gun), plus 16 (DHS). So 18 crits; Once again proof that Clantech is good.

And on the subject of hoping the enemy doesn't notice you in Double Blind... You can do the same with a large enough Assault spearhead. It's hard to focus on the little guy when a pair of Fafnirs come thundering into view. You see the giant hole punchers and you wanna shoot 'em, and focus less on the sandblasting jerk behind you.
EDIT: Whoops. Typo.

Since theres the base 20 heat sinks, ERPPC only needs 3 crits and 7 tons. Out of the two, its clearly the superior option for lights and mediums, especially if those sinks arent already used by other systems or weapons, basically regardless of whether they want to fight close or far.

Or for the same range bands and to-hits as the RAC/5, 2 Large Lasers for 4 crits and 10 tons. For the same tonnage as RAC/5 plus its ammo you have 80% of the raw damage, 60% greater hit cluster size, no jams, no ammo explosions, no ammo limits, no reason to ever need to dial down firepower, identical effective firepower in raw damage per used unit of mass(in this situation RAC/5 wins by 4%), and theres still 2 tons left to carry, say, a medium laser and a DHS.

Sorry, but there is IMHO no reason to not to hate worthless ballistics, that is, most of them.

[Scotty]

The problem is how you're assuming that the RAC is incapable of hitting for harder than that.  On a backstabber the potential for thirty points in six clusters is enormous and fully matches three PPCs.  You can't totally rely on it, you also can't beat it for firepower per ton without going to medium lasers.

[Erkki]

The problem is how you're assuming that the RAC is incapable of hitting for harder than that.  On a backstabber the potential for thirty points in six clusters is enormous and fully matches three PPCs.  You can't totally rely on it, you also can't beat it for firepower per ton without going to medium lasers.

That is only if you look at max potential damage instead of what it hits for on the average. The roll can also give you less than the average. Assuming 2 tons ammo and double heat sinks needed, RAC/5 wins over LL in tonnage efficiency by 50%, ((4*5/(10+2+3))/(8/(5+4)) = 1,5 but that is with not only mere 6 turns worth of ammo for the RAC, but also high chance of jam. The jam chance is low, but it adds up very quickly and actually surviving through those 6 turns is unacceptably unlikely, at least to me. Cluster size is not meaningless either. Using a RAC means you get another layer of dice luck where you cant really win anything really useful over the alternatives, but can get shafted immediately so much that it can cost the battle(a jammed, useless 250 BV gun and its ammo that is just waiting to get blown up).

When base dissipation is taken into account, like it should be unless you have something that wields a 12+ ton RAC/5 as a secondary weapon, even the lowly standard LL beats the RAC/5 as I tried to explain. And when its not a secondary, theres still all the enormous drawbacks. If I had to pick a big range 15 gun for secondary, it'd rather be a Large X-Pulse for 14 tons.

[mbear]

Its role is simple: Make the 3025 era Enforcers and Centurions useful on a 3145 battlefield. ;)

[UnLimiTeD]

People often underestimate the severe psychological effect of randomness.
If something has a chance of being very effective, but on average it isn't, it will still often be valued as if it is.
In the old days, medium lasers were more efficient than an AC 20 (no worries, they still are), yet people had an inordinate amount of respect for that weapon on behalf of being able to oneshot a mech or strip all the armour from a single location.
An RAC has a different strength, it could potentially deal 30 damage to someones behind, on average it may be 20, sometimes it's even less, and on occasion the weapon will just hiccup and do nothing. You could describe it as temperamental.
But it is still theoretically able to be lethal, and as such, it looks more threatening than it's raw stats would indicate.

[Sabelkatten]

Sabel, I'm starting to think you just hate Ballistics in general.

Then you don't actually read what I write. I love ballistics, which is why I hate the fact the TPTB either do hate ballistics or are real bad at math.

Because outside of niche uses (LBX flak, pretty much) the fact is that ACs suck (GRs are a completely different thing).

And on the subject of hoping the enemy doesn't notice you in Double Blind... You can do the same with a large enough Assault spearhead. It's hard to focus on the little guy when a pair of Fafnirs come thundering into view. You see the giant hole punchers and you wanna shoot 'em, and focus less on the sandblasting jerk behind you.

If you want to call that "backstabbing"... That's what I call "running around the flank and hope someone turns his back towards me". And as noted there are better weapons for doing that!

People often underestimate the severe psychological effect of randomness.
If something has a chance of being very effective, but on average it isn't, it will still often be valued as if it is.
In the old days, medium lasers were more efficient than an AC 20 (no worries, they still are), yet people had an inordinate amount of respect for that weapon on behalf of being able to oneshot a mech or strip all the armour from a single location.
An RAC has a different strength, it could potentially deal 30 damage to someones behind, on average it may be 20, sometimes it's even less, and on occasion the weapon will just hiccup and do nothing. You could describe it as temperamental.
But it is still theoretically able to be lethal, and as such, it is more threatening than it might seem.

Make that it might seem more threatening than it is.

As I said, people who are bad at probabilities are more afraid of LRM20s, MRM40s, RAC/5, HAG/40s and so on than they are of massed MLs - despite the MLs being just as scary (for their weight often more scary!).

AC/20 vs/ ML is not at all similar. 6 MLs cause 50% more damage than an AC/20, but if you have 10+ armor on all locations the odds of them causing internal damage are slim. The AC/20 OTOH is guaranteed to go internal on any location with less than 20 armor!

Now if you're slugging it out with heavy/assault mechs the AC/20 is most likely less dangerous all over than the MLs since quick kills are unlikely and the MLs' damage will add up to more. But the reason to fear AC/20s is that there is a realistic chance that you'll lose a pristine mech instantly - the risk of 6 MLs doing that is extremely low unless you're running Fire Moths or something like that!

[Fallen_Raven]

As for the "single gun" angle that's just if you play against inexperienced players or ones who just don't understand probability. Counting on your enemy being stupid isn't a good plan!

As one of the people he plays against, I'm not a fan of being called stupid. I also understand the difference between probability and possibility. For example it may be unlikely, but I have seen a RAC/5 put 4 out of six shots into a 'mechs head in a single round. That may not be the normal result, but things like that can and do happen. If you never factor in the possibility of statistical outliers you will be caught by surprise when they happen at the worst time..