Clan builder.

[agen2]

Just a simple question,which Clan on his history have spent more of their budget in concrete building(from civilian to bunker and fortified military bases).?
Which one is more prone with this stuff?

[GhostCat]

Do you think the Clans would try to waste resources to build something that only might survive orbital bombardment from one of their warships?

Of course that would require building even bigger Guns and the Ships to carry them. 

GC

[cold1]

There's an answer to that question somewhere.  But we need to know when and where.  Clan homeworlds, and when?  Or in the Inner Sphere and when?

[Maelwys]

Is there really an answer though? We don't have much information on the building practices of the Clans. We know some Clans had some memorable bases (Spiderholm for the Widowmakers, which became the Temple of Nine Muses for the Scorpions, IIRC), but there aren't many of those, and some of them might simply be fortifications built prior to the SLDF-in-Exile Civil War.

We have some indications of larger building projects, such as the Hell's Horses during the Jihad with their Castle Brian-like structure on Csesztreg, but whether this matches whatever Clan Wolf was doing in their Occupation Zone, we have no idea.

[Jellico]

Infrastructure or fortification? Your civilian bunker fortress line doesn't make that clear.


If infrastructure I would have to say CGB. They are notorious for their over abundance of factories etc pre Revival.

[Archangel]

Just a simple question,which Clan on his history have spent more of their budget in concrete building(from civilian to bunker and fortified military bases).?
Which one is more prone with this stuff?

Its not a simple question as your question encompasses all the colonies established by the Clans in the Homeworlds as well as any colonies established in the Inner Sphere not to mention that your question doesn't state whether you are talking about percentage or actual hard numbers.

If infrastructure I would have to say CGB. They are notorious for their over abundance of factories etc pre Revival.

The problem there is not all the factories they controlled were actually built by them.  Take the Tokasha MechWorks for example.  It was built by the Hell's Horses but captured by the Ghost Bears.

In the end there is too little data available to give a clear answer especially with control of the various Clan Homeworld planets (and the various enclaves established upon them) constantly shifting.  One Clan could found a colony, but then lose the colony to another Clan who turns it into a major manufacturing center only to lose it to another Clan in a Trial of Possession.

[Jellico]

One of my favorite examples of the nature of CGB is the Golden Age technological developments. Where the other Clans gave us guns the Bears gave us better asteroid mining and better wheat.

The Bears are like those players in a RTS who try to control the resources so they can spam high level factories and units. A powerful strategy if they are allowed to do so, but vulnerable if interrupted early. Which is why they were never the top Clan.

Remember FM:WC makes it clear that the Bears are industrially rich enough to build the Mechs they want, not just the ones that they can like the other Clans.

[Archangel]

Remember FM:WC makes it clear that the Bears are industrially rich enough to build the Mechs they want, not just the ones that they can like the other Clans.

Who was it that built the Tokasha MechWorks again?  Yes they had a large industrial infrastructure to back them up but did they build it all?  How much of it did they actually build and how much of it was the result of a successful trial?   ^-^

The topic under discussion isn't about control but about who actually spent the most building (be it percentage of their budget or total overall).

[Jellico]

Why the obsession with Tokasha? The Bears did have other factories you know. Conversely did the Horses not build another Mech till the 3040s?

[Archangel]

Why the obsession with Tokasha? The Bears did have other factories you know. Conversely did the Horses not build another Mech till the 3040s?

You are the one who is claiming that because at one point in time they could manufacture the 'Mechs they wanted that they spent more than any other Clan on building their infrastructure.  I am merely pointing out that your logic is flawed and the Tokasha MechWorks is a prime example of the flaw.  It was the largest 'Mech manufacturing facility in the possession of the Hell's Horses before being captured by the Ghost Bears and becoming one of their largest 'Mech production facilities.

[Jellico]

That's a fair point. Unfortunately the whole thing becomes somewhat circular. The Bears certainly do have a history of claiming unloved chassis. But they had to somehow survive until 2921 without the production facilities needed to compete with an Adder, Viper or Falcon. Firemoths predate Tokasha and Vipers were built on Strana Mechty. It is basically impossible to guess what was built at Tokasha beyond Novas and Storm Crows (Gargoyles don't make sense in the Bear era for a few reasons).

All I know is that we have a Clan known for taking its time to overthink things. It developed water purification, asteroid mining, and farming and a Small Pulse Laser. It begs steals or borrows the technology it likes then builds the heck out of it (though oddly it has a remarkable record for designing aerospace. I mean it has put 3 of the 5 heavy Omnifighters in the sky, 1 of the 3 JumpShips, and is responsible for 1 of the 7 WarShips.). Tokasha was certainly a boost, but it clearly wasn't that great because the Bears remained second tier. Are their Warriors incompetent so that they either could not defend the production or lost with overwhelming numbers? Do the first tier Clans have even more production? So why don't we hear of their industrial might beyond the Falcons bankers?

Having spent too much of the last hour researching this I feel the take away is that Tokasha Mekworks was a big deal for the 'Mech poor Horses but not that great in the big scheme of things. Most Clan factories in the Home Worlds seem to be isolated structures building one or two designs. All the more difficult to steal too much from I guess.

I have made my argument and will stop derailing this thread.

Actually one interesting way of figuring out concrete usage would be to look at populations. A consistently large population will use more concrete.

[Go For The Throat]

Just a simple question,which Clan on his history have spent more of their budget in concrete building(from civilian to bunker and fortified military bases).?
Which one is more prone with this stuff?

It depends, are you talking about largest total sum spent, or largest portion of their "income" devoted toward building?

If you are talking portion of "income", I would lean towards the Blood Spirits.

If you are talking largest sum spent, I would say Falcon, Wolf, Bear, or Horse.

[GhostCat]

I think we have to ask the original poster if the question is about building large monolithic structures designed to draw attention away from something else.  Or are we just seeking an estimate on which Clan has the largest number of empty parking lots? 

Very few Clans had the resources to build more than what was absolutely necessary to make more than what they absolutely needed.  When a Clan did have time or material extra to work with, another Clan was quick to take it away for its own use. 

GC

[Go For The Throat]

Perhaps the Steel Vipers, they built Mercer Tower on New Kent.

[Zeruel]

I think we have to ask the original poster if the question is about building large monolithic structures designed to draw attention away from something else.  Or are we just seeking an estimate on which Clan has the largest number of empty parking lots? 

Very few Clans had the resources to build more than what was absolutely necessary to make more than what they absolutely needed.  When a Clan did have time or material extra to work with, another Clan was quick to take it away for its own use. 

GC

from the OP, it sounds like a combination of both of those questions: just which Clan has spent more on infrastructure as a whole--everything from roads to monoliths

I think an accurate answer is almost impossible to give
we can't simply assume the Clan with the most territory would have built the most roads, because maybe Clan X built everything but Clan Y could have taken it all from them via Trial, so Clan X now has nothing

re: CGB having lots of resources, just because they had the ability to build their Touman as they saw fit doesn't mean they built up their infrastructure beyond the minimum they needed, they could have traded it all away for other stuff

[agen2]

Thanks for reply,btw my question was referred at which Clan put more emphasis on building and this is  counting for civilian,military(like which Clan build up the most big military base)until to symbolic building(like the White House or the Kremlin for example).

[Archangel]

As Zeruel and I have stated there isn't enough information available to answer your question accurately.  There are simply too many variable to consider, most of which have little to no information available.

[Alan Grant]

The Clan with the most territory in the homeworlds during the golden century.

Seriously, if you are looking for "Clan builder" that's where you need to look. More territory, more planets, more enclaves, means you need more bulldozers, more construction cranes, more building crews. I'm talking about any kind of construction, from houses to spaceports to trains and roads to military infrastructure.

I suspect there was a building boom all around in the homeworlds during the Golden Century. So which Clan built the most would hinge on a combination of territory size and economic resources.

To my mind, the Wolves, Ghost Bears, Coyotes and Jade Falcons are all reasonable contenders. Remember the Coyotes were once among the largest and most powerful Clans. The Foxes/Sharks aren't in there simply because I don't think they had as much territory as other Clans, but their economic engine was second to none in Clan space, so I have no doubt that they were good builders in the territory they did possess. They also developed things like the Chatterweb and I suspect were a major driver of the entertainment industries in Clan space.

[WeaponX]

Tokasha was certainly a boost, but it clearly wasn't that great because the Bears remained second tier. Are their Warriors incompetent so that they either could not defend the production or lost with overwhelming numbers

Where did this impression that the Bears were a "second-tier" Clan come from?  While not exactly at the forefront like the Wolves and Falcons, for a while the Bears did actually lead the Crusader movement when Nadia Winson was the Khan, something that a "second-tier" Clan shouldn't be able to do.  The Bears also managed to earn a place in the Invasion, which again is something a second-tier Clan shouldn't have been able to do.  The Bears have always been one of the top Clans as far back as Operation Klondike. It was even mentioned in the Operation Klondike Sourcebook how surprising it was that the Bears managed to screw up their trial for a spot in the invasion of Eden since, as one of the top Clans, Kerensky was expecting the Bears to join the Wolves, Falcons and Jaguars in the Eden campaign, and  when the Horses somehow got the spot that the Bears were supposed to take, Kerensky had to change the Eden invasion plan to cater for the Bears' absence.

[Foxx Ital]

Where did this impression that the Bears were a "second-tier" Clan come from?  While not exactly at the forefront like the Wolves and Falcons, for a while the Bears did actually lead the Crusader movement when Nadia Winson was the Khan, something that a "second-tier" Clan shouldn't be able to do.  The Bears also managed to earn a place in the Invasion, which again is something a second-tier Clan shouldn't have been able to do.  The Bears have always been one of the top Clans as far back as Operation Klondike. It was even mentioned in the Operation Klondike Sourcebook how surprising it was that the Bears managed to screw up their trial for a spot in the invasion of Eden since, as one of the top Clans, Kerensky was expecting the Bears to join the Wolves, Falcons and Jaguars in the Eden campaign, and  when the Horses somehow got the spot that the Bears were supposed to take, Kerensky had to change the Eden invasion plan to cater for the Bears' absence.

Bears had a enclave on Arcadia, so when klondike was written thats where we had to go. The "I don't play well with others" mentality would have gone more horrible on eden so yay for that.